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Post by zholud on Aug 31, 2004 12:22:03 GMT -5
This thread is created to gather different tidbits on Navigators, their powers, their economic power, families, intrigue, trade wars, limits of influence, RPG representation and so on. Later I hope it’ll grow large enough to be separated for threads in different spheres. For ones who has been enlighten by me yet, I want to inform that I’ve submitted my ideas on navigators to Black Library publishing but never got an answer… possibly it was lost in the process, while my new work has prevented be from re-sending an updated version to them. I plan to do it for at least three months now My take on navigators, very shortThey were created by megacorporations in Tech Age, no more than slaves at that moment, later they overthrow their masters, but warp storms came (possibly navigators ‘helped’ Eldar in that). Emperor needed them at time of crusade but seen the problem of monopoly on transportation and set rules, which prevented it. Now families are in conflict with each other, Ecclesiarchy (cf. mutations, multiple notes about tensions), Mechanicus (forge ships used thrall navigators – slave navi’s that is) and in so-so relation with other major players. They need not only nature (genes) but nurture (education) to understand what they see. This prevents capturing baby navigator and cloning them to no end. Practices use some kind of yoga, meditation, drug usage etc. Their eye possibly emits something (that’s what kills), acts as flashlight to view warp, which is otherwise is in complete darkness. Of course it may be ‘warp sucker’ instead but I like this idea much less. Third eye is not the only peculiarity of navigators – when they age the get some kind gills which supposedly let them breathe in vacuum – strange thing but so it was written… At the moment end of musings…
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 31, 2004 17:31:13 GMT -5
For ones who has been enlighten by me yet, I want to inform that I’ve submitted my ideas on navigators to Black Library publishing but never got an answer… Or they don't like you as an 'outsider'... They were created by megacorporations in Tech Age On that you have agreement. It's one of the ideas that I'm rather fond that they subsequently 'degenerated', or rather reinvented themselves, into the various 'houses' which self-evidently would have been spread throughout the former 'empire'. ...later they overthrow their masters... One would have to question that particular concept not as 'incorrect' but merely requiring significant expansion. possibly navigators ‘helped’ Eldar in that... Not overtly fond of this as it seems a bit of a stretch... the eldar at this period might arguably not care. Now families are in conflict with each other, Ecclesiarchy, Mechanicus ...and in so-so relation with other major players. Nothing overtly controversial there... one would argue that this is the state of the entire Imperium. They need not only nature (genes) but nurture (education) to understand what they see. This prevents capturing baby navigator and cloning them to no end. A good point, that. Although self-evidently if you had a 'rogue' Navigator you could use them to 'train' the youngers regardless of genetic heritage (i.e. it's a function of perception and tuition rather than being genetically predisposed to view the warp in a certain way). Their eye possibly emits something (that’s what kills)... The new 'fluff' seems to be removing this tenuous concept... Third eye is not the only peculiarity of navigators – when they age the get some kind gills which supposedly let them breathe in vacuum – strange thing but so it was written… Is this not something which is more vestigial and which become more apparent in the, ahem, Heirs Apparent moreso upon the death of the Paternova?
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Post by zholud on Sept 1, 2004 5:12:46 GMT -5
Or they don't like you as an 'outsider'... In sense of being non-native speaker, maybe, but not in terms of good guys/bad guys… at least I hope so. One would have to question that particular concept not as 'incorrect' but merely requiring significant expansion. At submitted text I’ve left this part as ambiguous hearsay but for myself I see it as someone capturing navigators and to prevent warp-travel monopoly starts to help them grow up ‘naturally’ and cooperate with them instead of using as slaves. Later this led to families monopoly over warp-travel but that’s another story. And it wasn’t long enough – Age of Strife started… Not overtly fond of this as it seems a bit of a stretch... the eldar at this period might arguably not care. This is part of another, wider question – how wars and genocide during Age of Strife affected Chaos Gods, Slaanesh included. Were Eldar alone enough for the birth or galaxy wide turmoil led to it… A good point, that. Although self-evidently if you had a 'rogue' Navigator you could use them to 'train' the youngers regardless of genetic heritage Insurance against it is indoctrination of navigators during their education. This includes feeling that all other navigators are inferior, so you have to repell the ideato teach them. Of course in Imperium so old and wide everything happens sooner or later. That’s Inquisition is what for. Is this not something which is more vestigial and which become more apparent in the, ahem, Heirs Apparent moreso upon the death of the Paternova? Generally yes, the problem is that Heirs are usually older than average navigator and Paternova is possibly elder than they, so it can be natural development linked to age.
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Post by CELS on Sept 1, 2004 10:35:13 GMT -5
Not that it's really a major issue, but Navigators can still kill people with their third eye, as seen in Crossfire.
Personally, I think the vacuum-gills sound ridiculous. I mean, what's the point? In case the ship is damaged, and the internal atmosphere is sucked out? Well, they might be able to breathe, but the pressure will explode them like popcorn.
Here's a question for you; Why aren't Navigators procreating like bunnies? I mean, you'd think that each couple would want ten children, since it would bring fantastic wealth to their family / house.
I have a vague recollection of Wolfblade mentioning this, but I don't have that novel where I am.
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Post by zholud on Sept 1, 2004 12:44:31 GMT -5
Not that it's really a major issue, but Navigators can still kill people with their third eye, as seen in Crossfire. In Legacy you presumably meant… yes they can kill with the pineal eye. That’s led me to the idea that the eye is projector and not only receiver. Problem is what it projects… Personally, I think the vacuum-gills sound ridiculous. Agreed, but it is still in old fluff and no contradiction in new one. Well, they might be able to breathe, but the pressure will explode them like popcorn. This only if their internal organs haven’t changed as well, which led me to creation of autopsy reform in my fluff. Here's a question for you; Why aren't Navigators procreating like bunnies? I play out with low probability of live-birth, large amount of too far gone mutants and female navigator problems with fertility…
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Post by Philip on Sept 1, 2004 19:16:03 GMT -5
For ones who has been enlighten by me yet, I want to inform that I’ve submitted my ideas on navigators to Black Library publishing but never got an answer… possibly it was lost in the process, while my new work has prevented be from re-sending an updated version to them. Hi zholud, if it been more than 8 weeks since you have heard from them send a polite email. Remember they're in the process of moving so it may take longer than usual for them to get back to you. However, this type of stuff your talking about here is really handled by the design studio not BL....
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Post by KeirLeslie on Sept 2, 2004 0:15:53 GMT -5
Cels, according to Arthur C. Clarke, you don't explode in a vacuum. Your blood boils and other such nasty things happen, but you don't explode. Read that in quite a good book by him. 1984: Spring.
However, what would they breathe in the vacuum. A vacuum has nothing in it, so what would they breathe?
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Post by zholud on Sept 2, 2004 3:17:03 GMT -5
Cels, according to Arthur C. Clarke, you don't explode in a vacuum. Your blood boils and other such nasty things happen, but you don't explode. It depends whether you breathe in at that moment or not, i.e. what is the pressure inside you. The was a long discuss on Portent about it long ago. However, what would they breathe in the vacuum. A vacuum has nothing in it, so what would they breathe? That’s why I said it’s ridiculous… you can of course create the way, e.g. tiny nano-warp Webways that link grills with planet breathable atmosphere. Recall, with little hand waving you may do wonders As to resending – yes, Philip, I’ll resend stuff to them soon, maybe even this week. I plan to check it again before sending…
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Post by Philip on Sept 2, 2004 7:52:52 GMT -5
I’ll resend stuff to them soon, maybe even this week. Someone else asked this on the BL forum,and this is what Rik Cooper posted. Rik Copper handles all the BL's admin.
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Post by CELS on Sept 2, 2004 10:14:14 GMT -5
In Legacy you presumably meant… yes they can kill with the pineal eye. That’s led me to the idea that the eye is projector and not only receiver. Problem is what it projects… No, I meant Crossfire I haven't read Legacy yet. What does the eye project... Well... Navigators aren't exactly psykers, so it wouldn't make sense if they could shoot bolts of warp energy, or do other psychic stuff. Perhaps the eyes can open small windows to the warp, so that anyone who looks at it look straight into the warp and die? Or would they not die? Yes, but it's still ridiculous There's a lot of old fluff that isn't contradicted in newer editions, but that has just been abandonded and ignored because it's so damn silly. Autopsy reform? That's a good bet, although I'm curious about why only female navigators would have problems with fertility... As for 'too far gone' mutants... what do you think about the acceptable limits of mutations in Navigators? In Crossfire, there's a Navigator which is clearly a mutant in several respects... Is the Imperium more tolerant with Navigators, as long as they cover their body? Cels, according to Arthur C. Clarke, you don't explode in a vacuum. Your blood boils and other such nasty things happen, but you don't explode. Read that in quite a good book by him. 1984: Spring. Like zholud says, it depends on your lungs. Again, I'm no scientist, but I'm pretty sure that your lungs will explode in a vacuum. As you know, helium balloons tend to explode when they reach a certain height, because of the lower pressure which expands the internal gas and thus stretches the balloon too much. Another obvious and good question. Zholud's answer with the warp portals requires so much hand-waving that it's not even funny. On top of that, it's silly
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Post by Sikkukkut on Sept 2, 2004 15:07:25 GMT -5
As for 'too far gone' mutants... what do you think about the acceptable limits of mutations in Navigators? In Crossfire, there's a Navigator which is clearly a mutant in several respects... Is the Imperium more tolerant with Navigators, as long as they cover their body? There's an excellent article by Warwick Kinrade in an old Citadel Journal, most of which got picked up for the newer material in Exterminatus magazine, about the Navis Nobilite. I'm currently on the other side of the planet to my GW stuff, but from memory the relevant points are: - Navigators have a huge amount of leeway in terms of physical malformations and mutation, far, far more than any other arm of the Imperium. In fact, the ancient laws surrounding them make them almost a separate semi-sovereign power within the Imperium. Note that this is leeway not immunity: the entire Navigator House D'Kark was obliterated by an Inquisitorial pogrom using a sizeable Guard force and the White Scars Astartes after their patriarch was deemed to have exceeded his legal place.
- It's just as well that they're allowed that, because Navigator Houses are horrendously inbred in an attempt to keep the Navigator gene limited to a small and controllable number of bloodlines. Add the cumulative effect of warp exposure in an already narrow gene pool and you've got serious issues with reproduction: the article states that many Navigators are barren, others are so riddled with genetic flaws that they're incapable of producing viable offspring, and that a significant portion of Navigator children (an alarmingly large number and growing) are born so hideously deformed that even the Navigators feel obligated to kill them within hours of birth.
There were some game-rules printed along with the article which I think are a little ropey now, but the core fluff was rather good.
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Post by Lordof on Sept 2, 2004 21:54:41 GMT -5
I personally think that the third eye reflects the warp and its existance in the real world.
So say someone looking into a Navigators Eye would see a reflection of themselves and the Warp within them.
Now since the Warp is something which reflects emotions it would be entirely possible that by looking into the Eye of a Navigator you see all of your worst emotions and innermost demons displayed to you.
So death may be a big stretch but insanity wouldn't be pushing it. So i would say that death is more likely to be a rare event (Person has a heart attack from the shock or something like that) rather than a common occurance.
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Post by Tynesh on Sept 3, 2004 4:11:06 GMT -5
Humans possess vestigal gills. They are your tonsils. Left over from when we were fish:)
I recall reading the article in a recent =][= mag article when they released the Navigator for the range.
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Post by zholud on Sept 3, 2004 5:41:17 GMT -5
No, I meant Crossfire I haven't read Legacy yet. While in Crossfire there is a mention of this killing power, in Legacy it is actually used. And yes, uncovered sight of pineal eye kills. What does the eye project... Well... Navigators aren't exactly psykers, so it wouldn't make sense if they could shoot bolts of warp energy, or do other psychic stuff. Perhaps the eyes can open small windows to the warp, so that anyone who looks at it look straight into the warp and die? I played around with sucking property of the eye as well but for me projector is better. And it can project not only warp-stuff, but for example thick directed gamma-ray, which kills as well. I guess it is a better idea that the eye can kill even without eye-eye contact with the victim, as suggested above. Otherwise you can just don’t watch directly inn it, or use mirrors. I think it depends on experience and power of navigator. Even young navigator can affect you with the eye, but experienced one truly and fast enough kills. Yes, but it's still ridiculous There's a lot of old fluff that isn't contradicted in newer editions, but that has just been abandonded and ignored because it's so damn silly. Clothes on Ork groin are silly as well, but we don’t throw them off. I think existence of gills can remain, but their properties should be different… maybe they just store oxygen there, or their function is far from breathing at all. <sigh>, of course report I just write this in-between my work news pieces… That's a good bet, although I'm curious about why only female navigators would have problems with fertility... I thought to go and edit to set male/female, but decided not to bother with it. Moreover, I play with idea that not fertility is the issue but finding out the right mate, which brings me to idea of poliandian poligamian families for navigators (i.e. multiple wives/husbands). As for 'too far gone' mutants... what do you think about the acceptable limits of mutations in Navigators? In Crossfire, there's a Navigator which is clearly a mutant in several respects... Is the Imperium more tolerant with Navigators, as long as they cover their body? the are tolerant until robe is able to cover their mutations, but when they go too far, with multiple limbs/heads, covered by fur or scales, and so on. Zholud's answer with the warp portals requires so much hand-waving that it's not even funny. On top of that, it's silly Agreed, but I just wanted to show that it is possible to find answer… There's an excellent article by Warwick Kinrade in an old Citadel Journal Issue 18 with Wood Elves on cover, I guess. The stuff there is good, I used some idea from it in my write up, but there some ideas I disagree with. But it is so nice that I even planned to type it up for heretical book project killed (rightfully) by GW IP department… most of which got picked up for the newer material in Exterminatus magazine, about the Navis Nobilite. Uh, have to get it as well. Forgot to check J.J. stuff, thanks. Note that this is leeway not immunity: the entire Navigator House D'Kark was obliterated by an Inquisitorial pogrom using a sizeable Guard force and the White Scars Astartes after their patriarch was deemed to have exceeded his legal place. Interesting stuff, I guess this wasn’t in the Citadel Journal. Sidenote is that GW uses pogrom word too often, going off from original meaning. It is derivative from Russian verb ‘gromit’ meaning raid, sack; loot; smash up; inveigh (against), fulminate (against), rout, crush, pound… used by Jews during describing anti-Semitic forces ‘black shirts’ at the beginning of XXth century, who smashed Jewish settlements. BTW, IIRC D’kark or D’kirk was named in CrossfireNavigator Houses are horrendously inbred in an attempt to keep the Navigator gene limited to a small and controllable number of bloodlines. I’m thinking about problem of Families intermarriages. To add paranoia feel only infants (i.e. before you House indoctrinates you) can be given to another house… have yet to define whether such a practice is widespread and encouraged or not. There were some game-rules printed along with the article which I think are a little ropey now, but the core fluff was rather good. Rules can be used for creation of RPG entry for Navigators one day… So death may be a big stretch but insanity wouldn't be pushing it. So i would say that death is more likely to be a rare event (Person has a heart attack from the shock or something like that) rather than a common occurance. After death of old Paternova, Heirs Apparent battle each other with their eye as well. I even added small story about one Heir that became Paternova after killing opponent with mundane lasgun instead of using the eye… so (1) eye truly kills and (2) even Navigators, who are used to steering at the warp, so with higher resistance level are still affected by it. p.s. Re-sent the proposal yesterday. If no answer within 6 weeks I’ll post my fluff in full here.
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Post by CELS on Sept 3, 2004 9:53:47 GMT -5
While in Crossfire there is a mention of this killing power, in Legacy it is actually used. And yes, uncovered sight of pineal eye kills. Zholud, seriously... I said Crossfire and I meant it!! SPOILER ALERT! The main character boards a ship affiliated with the Ecclessiarchy. After fighting their way past arco-flagellants and various guards and crew, they finally reach the bridge, where the Navigator has used his pineal eye to kill several people. Not only mentioned, but used. Why a gamma ray? A huge ball of fire makes just as much sense to me. Yep. And mirrors probably won't do much good, since Navigators can see into the warp without flinching. Fighting an enemy without looking anywhere near eyes is pretty difficult though. Besides, Navigators aren't supposed to be monsters in close combat. Well, I don't agree with this, but that's because I feel that the Navigator's 'attack' should come from the nature of the pineal eye, whilst you seem to feel that it should be a special power which can be developed, kind of like a psychic power. Erm... great comparison there It has been suggested that exposure to vacuum will boil the blood. If anything, the gills should do something to prevent this from happening. Ah, in that case I think it sounds like a good idea. Of course, one must wonder who would want to do an autopsy of a Navigator. I doubt the Inquisition would need to. They've had many, many millennia to experiment on them already. Of course it is. We could also say that the gills are actually small organs which teleport to nearby worlds, collect oxygen, and teleport back to the Navigator. The problem, as you can see, is finding a good answer To me, this makes no sense. Again though, this is obviously because I disagree with what the eye really does. I don't see it projecting any rays or beams.
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