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Post by CELS on Sept 13, 2004 11:13:19 GMT -5
As far as I know, the Navigator has his own throne, kind of like the captain, often located on the bridge. Although I don't have any of my novels with me, I'm pretty sure I've read about Navigator thrones on the bridge of a ship, and I'm 99.9% sure that the Navigator in the Ephrael Stern comic book is on the bridge.
Here's another question though; Do Navigators go very, very long without sleeping, or do ships with only one Navigator only make short jumps (less than a day)?
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Post by zholud on Sept 13, 2004 11:24:38 GMT -5
Who gives a fig about the nightmares, unless you're going to go down the horrendous route of 'genetic memory' translating into susceptibility to mutation and/or 'taint'. Horrendous idea, that. Maybe this way as well… I was thinking about much simpler way – nightmares lead to fear of dreams, aka Elm street syndrome, and people depraved of sleep make mistakes and are irritable, causing outflow of emotions and demons attracting… vicious circle. Threshold limitations again. Storage of sex cells allows extension beyond questionable viability meaning you have no particular 'shelf life' as participating member in family politics. having sells stored, you actually may get interesting abnormalities in your genealogic tree, which even can get graphs aka I’m my own grandpa, which I generally already had in my writing, but due to large life-span, necessity to stabilise good genes by close relatives marriages and peculiarities of the warp time anomalies. I’m just unsure whether sperm banks fit 40k, with its pseudo low tech. plus market for teenagers don’t allow using word ‘sperm’ too much… And gene-stock is just one step from cloning of navigators, and armies of clone navigators engulfing Imperium. Possibly their slave past, when they were actually breed like useful cattle, now sets some kind of moral taboo for using stored materials, which lose warms of body… figuratively of course with all these stasis fields. Of course they were... Are you really sure that they were there for 10,000 Imperium years, or that they were in the warp for a sufficient period of time such that in the matterium 10,000 years had passed. Remember that GW is particularly bad at this type of thing. That’s why I specified Imperium years… Further, were they protected by a Geller Field? seems no, however, as usual fluff is hazy… for example it never points on what they ate for all these years Cf. Soul Drinkers in Soul Drinkers and more particularly Chalice of Blood (or whatever it is called). Cannot recall where it states that warp travel per se leads to mutation… maybe I have to re-read them. And they welcomed mutations, which like buds, have to start blossoming sooner or later, even if you don’t need it. I call it dark gothic future instead Do you not think that this is problematic in terms of viability of the Houses? the Imperium is non-viable as well if it operates the way fluff suggests I prefer a spectrum of activity and remember the phrase: "There are bold soldiers and old soldiers; but there are no bold, old soldiers." (Cannot remember what the original phrase used. Might even have been sailors.) Survival of the fittest does not equal survival of the strongest/boldest The 'fluff' is contentious on this matter. Newer 'fluff' has a "navigator bubble" which extends, at least partially, beyond the hull of the ship. Earlier 'fluff' implied that it didn't matter. Note, however, that not all Navigators can see into the warp from the matterium... the whole LOS gig. I thought about placing navigator at the very top/bottom (remember 3D) of the ‘cathedral’ thing on imperial ships. More likely situation is that the Navigator can see through the 'thermoclines' (?warpclines, etc.) whereas the 'warp sensors' are incapable of this, subjected more to the problems of EM sensors. E.g. the navigator 'senses/feels' that distance is stretched in a given distance, while the 'distance reader' just doesn't return a signal... Cf. Eye of Terror and the "speed indicator". Speed indicator may in reality show relative acceleration/deceleration since the warp entry.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 13, 2004 16:59:47 GMT -5
Well, that killed the thread. Nothing there to actually respond to so time for bed, methinks...
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Post by zholud on Sept 14, 2004 2:56:58 GMT -5
Well, that killed the thread. intensive therapy unit. Zholud with shocker stays over something and cries out “we’re loosing it, we’re loosing it!” camera moves and reveal the body with big red letters on it. it reads Kage’s interestSo, to revive it some more ideas and suggestions: Sleeping navigator – in my make up I used both active drug usage to keep on and organ similar to Marine’s Catalepsean Node that influences the circadian rhythms of sleep and the body’s response to sleep deprivation. Normally, a Marine sleeps like any normal man, but if deprived of sleep, the catalepsean node 'cuts in'. A man implanted with the node is capable of sleeping and remaining awake at the same time by ‘switching off' areas of the brain sequentially. Moreover, I think that this organ was originally developed for Navigators and later used for SM creation. One of my question – what is better, to keep is as an integral part of navigator body, like the eye or make it an implant? Psykers-navigators – after thinking on Philip’s idea on strong psyker that sets too much white noise to see anything, I decided that original idea of blanks instead of even weak psykers has its pluses, because blank does not tap the warp and thus has minimal white noise.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 14, 2004 3:34:07 GMT -5
Is this sleep during the warp flight, because I was under the impression that they neither sleep nor move from their chair/cradle until the warp trip is over and they re-enter realspace. Don't they enter some form of trance when they are piloting a ship with all their food and bodily needs being taken intravenously. I should point out that these ideas are set in stone for me so any opinions to the contrary will be considered wrong, unless you can quote me several sources to the contrary...several sources Edit; having actually read zholuds post properly he seems to be saying the same
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Post by zholud on Sept 14, 2004 8:48:13 GMT -5
Is this sleep during the warp flight, because I was under the impression that they neither sleep nor move from their chair/cradle until the warp trip is over and they re-enter realspace. Don't they enter some form of trance Generally they are able to speak/walk while watching the warp, both during realspace and warp presence. They are very concentrated during true piloting of course, but whether it is trance or not it is hard to say definitely. So I use to let thousand flowers bloom approach, with some navigators entering the trance during navigation. when they are piloting a ship with all their food and bodily needs being taken intravenously. However it is important to remember that even people in coma seems have active and passive (sleeping) regimes and we need all time active navigator for weeks, don’t we? Or generally warp travel even less dangerous and you can leave orders to autopilot and get you ½ hour of sleep?
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Post by Sojourner on Sept 15, 2004 4:13:45 GMT -5
I think Navigators are supposed to have their own chamber within the ship which nobody is allowed to enter without their permission, which they will not normally grant. The suggestion is that it's void shielded, and heavily armoured.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 5:09:12 GMT -5
That would be consistent with Execution Hour, though not with some of the other 'fluff' (e.g. Inquisitor/Draco). Easiest interpretation there is that the nature of the 'work quarters' is a function of the ship in question: military ships tend to have them as well protected, a feature probably found to a lesser degree in Merchant ships and, once again, perhaps lesser in Civil ships that have them. (Of course, the silly thing being that it should actually be the other way around! )
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Post by zholud on Sept 15, 2004 8:50:48 GMT -5
I think Navigators are supposed to have their own chamber within the ship which nobody is allowed to enter without their permission, which they will not normally grant. The suggestion is that it's void shielded, and heavily armoured. Generally, similar imaginary was used in Warp Fiend short story as well. As to permission and any kind of field, I guess it is more legal instead of practical defence. Otherwise, how to work if navigator dies … in real space and you have spare navigator around – how can he enter w/o permission. And any shield may negatively affect warp-vision. However, I actually used fully sealed navigator chambers in Adeptus Mechanicus ships in order to prevent Mechanicus gaining navigator’s living tissue for cloning. Still on position of the chamber/throne – who except Kage suggests having it deeply inside the ship, in the most heavily protected area? And if set chamber in room with window – should it be 5 degree line of sight , 90 or even 360??? Plus 2D or real 3D?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 15, 2004 11:55:56 GMT -5
who except Kage suggests having it deeply inside the ship, in the most heavily protected area? Oh for... I merely pointed out the 'fluff'. Take it where you will. I personally think the idea of the Navigator being extended in a plastic bubble which just happens to be stronger than anything else the Imperium makes is a pathetic idea. Given the description of their abilities there is no reason for it... Do what you want... it's going to make about as much sense of the 'fluff' and, therefore, be equally valid. My preference would be to put them in a horrendously well guarded room towards the centre of the ship. Indeed, one with independent 'Navigator' guard on some ships...
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Post by zholud on Sept 15, 2004 14:55:15 GMT -5
Oh for... I merely pointed out the 'fluff'. Take it where you will. Sorry, Kage, I haven’t intended to harass you, I just personally have problems with believability of usage either warp-eye transparent materials for ships or external data collectors, which transfer information to navigator’s chamber. I agree this opens some possibilities and I don’t throw it out. I personally think the idea of the Navigator being extended in a plastic bubble which just happens to be stronger than anything else the Imperium makes is a pathetic idea. I presently go with wide frontal window, bubble is either too hi-tech look for 40k, plus I cannot recall description of such bubbles. My preference would be to put them in a horrendously well guarded room towards the centre of the ship. Indeed, one with independent 'Navigator' guard on some ships... This sets another question – whether during warp travel the mightiest vault in safer than any board-chamber? And with enormous size of imperial ships (at least battleships) I can easily envision elevator system for the Navigator camber, which hides navigator within the ship upon entering realspace…
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Post by Dazo on Sept 15, 2004 16:17:11 GMT -5
Well bubble is what it is, thats the only way I've ever heard it described, its sealed of by the navigator when he goes in, and i'm pretty sure he's the only one that can open it again. Plasticryst, anyone remember that, isn't that what the bubble is made of along with all the other windows on imperial ships, which to my knoledge do not come with blast doors and so are open to the warp. I have read descriptions of people looking at the imaterium while they travel through it. Besides arn't the hulls of imperial vessels blessed and warded against daemonic intrusion, so why would the navigators bubble be exempt from this protection. And if bog standard stone can repel the horrors of the warp(asteroid ships kage) then i'm pretty sure the imperium could develop a transparent material that is more than up for the job.
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Post by CELS on Sept 15, 2004 16:24:50 GMT -5
It seems to me that all the new fluff points to that Navigators are found on the bridge of the ship (Crossfire, Daemonifuge, and perhaps Execution Hour?), and that only the old fluff (Inquisition War, Draco) says otherwise. The idea of the bubble has no support in fluff, nor does anyone here seem fond of the idea.
Now, personally, I think anything written by Ian Watson ranks at the very bottom of the fluff barrel. Not only because it's so outdated, it probably contradicts the new fluff a thousand times, but also because I think it's just poorly written and plain uncool.
Dazo is right by the way, that the fluff has people looking into the Immaterium on Imperial ships, during warp travel. Commissar-Colonel Ibram Gaunt does it in First and Only, and is apparently one of the very few people who can do it, except for Navigators, without going mad.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 15, 2004 16:31:17 GMT -5
Indeed CELS much of the older is by todays standards out of date, it is however closer to 40k in its interpretations than most fluff written these days, though obviously that would be a matter of personal taste. I enjoyed Ian watsons books but the one I was thinking of about the bubble was from Deathwing which in my view was a seminal(I hope to god i've used that word correctly) piece of 40k fiction, and just look at the authers, wow now thats a bloody impressive collection of talent
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Post by CELS on Sept 16, 2004 9:29:31 GMT -5
Sounds to me then, like this bubble is just a spherical room, rather than some kind of force field or anything fancy. Whether Navigators are found in spherical or cubical rooms doesn't really matter to me Most of the fluff suggests that Navigators are found on the bridge, and indeed I'm at a loss trying to figure out why they should need their own room. Well, except that it might not be safe for people to look into their third eye. But that can be solved by a sealed Navigator's throne. My conclusion: Navigators are typically found on the bridge. Some of the fluff might have them gazing into the immaterium through armoured glass, and other fluff might have them deep inside the ship, but I'm pretty sure that either option affects their abilities. The novel Legacyconfirms this.
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