|
Post by zholud on Sept 3, 2004 11:25:19 GMT -5
Zholud, seriously... I said Crossfire and I meant it!! CELS, relax, I haven’t said in the last post that you did not mean it… of course you did. I just humbly pointed that the actual description of killing exists in Legacy. Why a gamma ray? A huge ball of fire makes just as much sense to me. Only to emphasise that one has no need to use warp to kill people without usage of visible weapons. Most people a priori assume that if eye kills that it does it with the warp. Am I sounding clearer now? Yep. And mirrors probably won't do much good, since Navigators can see into the warp without flinching. Perseus did it and murdered Medusa without much trouble…. Oh, classics Well, I don't agree with this, but that's because I feel that the Navigator's 'attack' should come from the nature of the pineal eye, whilst you seem to feel that it should be a special power which can be developed, kind of like a psychic power. I just think they train as navigators, so why not they train in concentrating killing sight as well. And having babies and than teenagers with killing sight can be problem for a teacher/nurse Ah, in that case I think it sounds like a good idea. Of course, one must wonder who would want to do an autopsy of a Navigator. I doubt the Inquisition would need to. They've had many, many millennia to experiment on them already. Not in my version, where the Emperor gave immunity to Navigators, so catching up a body of Navigator is not a too often experience. To me, this makes no sense. Again though, this is obviously because I disagree with what the eye really does. I don't see it projecting any rays or beams. So, what it does? And another question – how many navigators in Imperium? Navy, civil/merchant fleet, monitors, spare steermen…
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 4, 2004 5:41:57 GMT -5
Pineal Eye and 'power development'... Please note that the original 'fluff' states that the most 'powerful' Navigators, including the Heirs Apparent, had a warp eye that could ward off daemons. This, of course, supports both arguments but thought that I would mention it.
Experimentation on Navigators... With the caveat that a great deal of lattitude must be given, please also note the "Navigators" mentioned in the first Eisenhorn book on the "Essene".
Number of Navigators... Depends on who you want to believe. Canonically it would be at least millions, or tens of millions of you take it to the extent that Phillip sometimes seems to.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Sept 4, 2004 5:45:46 GMT -5
I am relaxed. If I was upset, I would use the angry smiley Actually, you said that in Crossfire, it was mentioned but not used. I merely replied that it was used (because those people were killed). Where it was actually described is not something we have disagreed on I'm afraid not Yes, most people assume that it is connected with the warp, because it is thanks to the pineal eye that the Navigators navigate (IIRC). It's a perfectly logical assumption, eventhough it's still an assumption. And why did you choose gamma rays, of all possible weapons? LoL! Now that's an invalid argument if there ever was one Space Marines can be trained, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can be trained to produce more deadly poisons. As I've said before, I don't think the killing is a matter of skill. All the Navigator really does, IMHO, is to reveal his eye. The very nature of the pineal eye does the rest. Perhaps they have the same nurses as the babies which are alpha plus level psychers and aren't really in control of their powers Reminds me of a Stephen King novel.... In over ten thousand years, I'd be surprised if the Inquisition only ONCE got their hands on the body of a Navigator. To me, this is like that article on ork reproduction, in Codex: Orks (3rd edition). After ten thousand years of research, one would think they would have cracked that nut by now. To use Kage's expression, it's too much 'Adeptus Mecan'ticus' Good question.... I imagine that it either just reveals the warp to the victim, something that is deadly (although I fear that the fluff just says it would drive a man insane) or that it actually opens a portal to the warp, so nasty things come out and grab you. Ah, the far most interesting question so far, in my opinion. All Navy starships have at least one Navigator, with the possible exception of maintenance vessels and the like. They would certainly be present on a lot of Inquisitorial, Adeptus Mechanics, Astartes and Arbites ships. In addition, there would be a lot of ships owned by the Administratum, Ministorum and other powerful Imperial organisations, which would have their own navigators. Officio Assassinorum... Navigators would be extremely rare in the civil fleet. Erm... gotta go. More later.
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Sept 4, 2004 12:34:21 GMT -5
A piece from another thread. =From the new 4th edition 40K rule book=- Ships must have a navigator.
- All Navigators have the Warp Eye.
- All Navigators are Psykers.
Even though this was written in such a gospel of 40k fluff as the latest Rulebook, does not mean that true heretic cannot critique it… so: - Psykers – seems it is more the problem of definition than anything else… they add Navigators to psykers, ok. They just unique kind of a psyker, with abilities quite different from any other known psyker.
- necessity of navigators – so, Tau are able as well as Orks just short jumps in the warp, but Imperium cannot do it at all? Poor Imperium, so backward that even Orks superior to it.
- Necessity of the pineal eye – rulebook may say this, but Marc Gascoigne said to my question about it the following: (quoting by memory, old boards seems inaccessible) the Imperium is awfully huge and there is versions for navigators with one eye, with grape of eyes, with insectoid facets… we are in background and aren’t limited by rules.
Such are my views…
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 17:06:52 GMT -5
Psykers – seems it is more the problem of definition than anything else… they add Navigators to psykers, ok. They just unique kind of a psyker, with abilities quite different from any other known psyker. I don't see it as a problem, I have already dealt with this in another thread and it still seems to fit after reading about them in the new edition... Navigators are Psykers but they are also Genetically engineered. So heavily genetically engineered in fact, they are almost a separate species. It is this tampering that that gives the Navigators their extraordinary powers. An obvious example of this generic tampering would the the 'warp eye'. Normal Psykers do not have this. I imagine it boosts the 'warp feel' abilities of the Navigators to the point they can see the warp in far greater detail than a normal human Psyker, so much so, that they can react to it and guide a ship. Without the warp eye, the ability of a Psyker to feel any great amount of the warp is extremely limited. I think all 'normal' Psykers have the beginnings/ foundations of the Navigators 'warp feel' powers, but normal Psykers just can't use this sense to any great degree and certainly can't navigate the warp. This explains why other Psykers can see the Astronomicon, but can not do much with it. I like this angle because it lays the foundation of the R&D done in the Golden Age of Technology. There must have been a little bit of the 'warp feel' ability in early Psykers to warrant further investigations in the first place. After a few generations of 'experiments', the scientists ended up with 'navigators' with the greatly enhanced warp feel. I'm also quite sure the Imperium can manage short jumps to. As for superiority, the Tau 'skim' the warp and are much slower, as for the Orks they just jump on and don't give a monkey's were they end up. In contrast the the Imperium warp technology is very fast and gets to it intended destination, remember Navigators are part of 'Imperial technology'. As such the Imperium's methods of travel is superior to both the Tau's and the Ork's. The warp eye can be well look different externally but it is categorised by its function. In the same way that legs hold animals up, but there is a great range of leg types.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 4, 2004 19:02:10 GMT -5
I don't see it as a problem, I have already dealt with this in another thread and it still seems to fit after reading about them in the new edition... Two other[/i] threads. Please do not spam in such a way again... (The irony being that I'm having to do it here...) The ASP works on the principle of integration not exclusion. This means that we work together with all the editions rather than just the current one that you prefer. There is no revisionism here, only holism and interpretation. And, once more, as artwork is so is kibitzing...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 20:36:28 GMT -5
[/i] threads. Please do not spam in such a way again...[/quote] My post wasn't spam as I explained why I thought this, and it was relevant to the conversation.
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Sept 5, 2004 6:38:06 GMT -5
Pineal Eye and 'power development'... Please note that the original 'fluff' states that the most 'powerful' Navigators, including the Heirs Apparent, had a warp eye that could ward off daemons. This, of course, supports both arguments but thought that I would mention it. Yes, there was such a fluff. Moreover, I guess it is just a good thing to have any kind of advance scheme for Navigators if 40k RPG, if this thing will emerge one day. Experimentation on Navigators... With the caveat that a great deal of lattitude must be given, please also note the "Navigators" mentioned in the first Eisenhorn book on the "Essene". The one that was greatly ‘cybernitised’, just like servant on the same ship? I guess this is exception and not the rule… moreover, s/he possibly iis the vitim of some accident and could be set before choice to become cyborg or die. Number of Navigators... Depends on who you want to believe. Canonically it would be at least millions, or tens of millions of you take it to the extent that Phillip sometimes seems to. We can try to calculate the rough guesstimate. We have about 100 military ships per sector, all with at least one navigator. Considering that they may die and that Ramiles StarPort has 17 navigators operating it, I guess that battleships get 5+ navigators. All in all there are at least 300 navigators in military fleet only per sector. If we assume that non-military fleets are 10 times larger than military, but only 20% with navigators, that gives another 600… add spare ones and you get 1,000 per sector. With from one to two million worlds we get from 1,000,000 (1,000 planets per sector, 1,000 sectors) to 4,000,000 (500 planets per sector, 4,000 sectors) navigators… not too much, if you take into account that this is just 1-2 navigator per planet. This brings another question – how large is the average Navis Nobilite family/house? I used thousands in my write up, so each family is quite large, with family members unaware about each other sometimes… And why did you choose gamma rays, of all possible weapons? because they - exist, no hand waving needed
- can kill
- can be directed
- are not warp.
They were just an obvious choice to me, to show mundane way to kill with something that can be interpreted by observer as ‘magic’. I don’t state the use x-rays actually, that was just an example. Space Marines can be trained, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they can be trained to produce more deadly poisons. As I've said before, I don't think the killing is a matter of skill. All the Navigator really does, IMHO, is to reveal his eye. The very nature of the pineal eye does the rest. If voodoo shamans could truly control anyone, they’d the rules of the world instead of sitting in a backwater village… I don’t think this is the power we need, because it disbalances the system. Paternova kills everyone on Senatum session and starts ruling the Imperium. Power coerce and power to kill coerce deadly. In over ten thousand years, I'd be surprised if the Inquisition only ONCE got their hands on the body of a Navigator. Not once, but not too often either. And recalling the paranoia feel about Inquisition to get the info about captured navigators isn’t that easy either. With navigators’ control over long-distance fast warp travel a lot of Imperium’s high-ranking people want own thrall navigators, and if this does not happen than possibly navigators do they best to keep their monopoly. Including keeping their dead to themselves and retrieving it at all costs. To me, this is like that article on ork reproduction, in Codex: Orks (3rd edition). After ten thousand years of research, one would think they would have cracked that nut by now. To use Kage's expression, it's too much 'Adeptus Mecan'ticus' Point is that we don’t see much rule of Mechanicus over Imperium, and have no mention of Mechanicus-made thrall navigators. But we have Emperor giving 6 houses to Mechanicum at eve of the Great Crusade. I imagine that it either just reveals the warp to the victim, something that is deadly (although I fear that the fluff just says it would drive a man insane) or that it actually opens a portal to the warp, so nasty things come out and grab you. Second version has more appeal to me. Because Heirs battle each other with eyes, do it to kill and they’ve seem the warp before. Navigators would be extremely rare in the civil fleet. Agreed. Navigators are Psykers but they are also Genetically engineered. So heavily genetically engineered in fact, they are almost a separate species. It is this tampering that that gives the Navigators their extraordinary powers. OK. I don’t argue here, I just think that GW chose an easy way, saying everyone, who uses warp is psyker. For me this is like everyone that live in water (=uses warp) is waterliving creature (=psyker). I prefer biological distinction between mammals , such as whales, dolphins (=navigators) different types of fish (=my definition of ‘psykers’) and others – alligators, crabs etc (=demons, enslavers, etc). As any analogy this one should not be taken too far, but I guess I presented my idea… So, navigators are psykers, but they have powers which inaccessible to non-navigator psykers and never have powers that are usually considered to be psyker powers.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 5, 2004 10:04:01 GMT -5
OK. I don’t argue here, I just think that GW chose an easy way, saying everyone, who uses warp is psyker. For me this is like everyone that live in water (=uses warp) is waterliving creature (=psyker). I prefer biological distinction between mammals , such as whales, dolphins (=navigators) different types of fish (=my definition of ‘psykers’) and others – alligators, crabs etc (=demons, enslavers, etc). As any analogy this one should not be taken too far, but I guess I presented my idea… So, navigators are psykers, but they have powers which inaccessible to non-navigator psykers and never have powers that are usually considered to be psyker powers. I like that idea, so the dolphin (navigator) wouldn't get die from poisoned water (warp) because it is really an air breather (non-psyker)? And this proofs that we cannot use the 4th edition as a gospel truth because it says must have I was thinking a short navigator jump! I guess Tau jumps are like human calculated jumps, because the principle is similar. As for Orks, I’m unsure then how they end up on Armageddon then, and not at any other point of the galaxy, for 2 times in a row. My guess that they somehow still navigate, but unconsciously and with limited success, so they are random walk with drift… Ork civilization become more advanced as the numbers grow. Perhaps the Orks of Waaaaaaa! have their own form of navigator?
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Sept 6, 2004 4:07:17 GMT -5
I like that idea, so the dolphin (navigator) wouldn't get die from poisoned water (warp) because it is really an air breather (non-psyker)? Close… dolphin still can die from poisoned water if it gets under its skin or if it drinks… it is more water with low percent of oxygen that damages fish more than dolphin. Whether call it non-psyker or not I’m unsure… if GW does call the psykers, than ok, they are psykers but not wyrds as other, ‘normal’ psykers. I was thinking a short navigator jump! What for to make short, calculated jump if you get navigator onboard, who can make it longer and quite possibly more safe, as he sees the warp currents. I guess that the GW meant long-distance warp travel but forgot to insert this in the text. I can look up BFG fluff, which can be considered not less pure than rulebook, after all it deal with spaceships battles. From what I recall they mention navigator-less travel there. Ork civilization become more advanced as the numbers grow. Perhaps the Orks of Waaaaaaa! have their own form of navigator? I thought about extra-Ork influence, which guides them, like red ‘unz go fasta, where not individual Ork but their society waagh!-fuels bikes to really move faster.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 4:39:10 GMT -5
Close… dolphin still can die from poisoned water if it gets under its skin or if it drinks… it is more water with low percent of oxygen that damages fish more than dolphin. Whether call it non-psyker or not I’m unsure… if GW does call the psykers, than ok, they are psykers but not wyrds as other, ‘normal’ psykers. Hmm, maybe all those who deal in the warp directly are 'water-breathers'. Navigators just have the equivalent of 'very large eyes' (like a giant squid) and can see great distances. (Whales can sense storms etc.) Why does the navigator have such limited Psyker powers? This is a bit of a sticking point. Perhaps they are very weak Psykers in the first place, with no perceivable powers. Scientists then only boosted one sense to a extraordinary level by genetic engineering? Maybe the warp eye act as a 'lens' to collect tons of information and focus it so even the Navigator with its weak Psyker powers can then see the warp? What for to make short, calculated jump if you get navigator onboard, who can make it longer and quite possibly more safe, as he sees the warp currents. I guess that the GW meant long-distance warp travel but forgot to insert this in the text. I can look up BFG fluff, which can be considered not less pure than rulebook, after all it deal with spaceships battles. From what I recall they mention navigator-less travel there. We're talking at cross purposes here If all Imperial ships had to have navigators, calculated jump are not needed. I'm sure a navigator can preform short jumps just as well as long jumps. (However this is from the 4th edition and from what Kage has said this bit of the 4th edition will not be part of Anargo.) I thought about extra-Ork influence, which guides them, like red ‘unz go fasta, where not individual Ork but their society waagh!-fuels bikes to really move faster. So a big Waaagh gets to where it wants, because all the Orks want it? A collective navigator?
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Sept 6, 2004 6:23:05 GMT -5
Hmm, maybe all those who deal in the warp directly are 'water-breathers'. Navigators just have the equivalent of 'very large eyes' (like a giant squid) and can see great distances. (Whales can sense storms etc.) My point was more to the fact that while dolphins/whales and fish are quite different in terms of biology, DNA, etc., they all live in water with equal ease. So are the navis nobilite with their DNA and biology can differ from ‘natural’ (born with right gene) psyker more that ordinary homo sapiens differs from psyker. I point out that psykers aren’t bastards of old navigators, as your early version of tech levels seemingly suggested… for me navigators are far from humans, psykers included than even Ogres or Ratlings. Why does the navigator have such limited Psyker powers? This is a bit of a sticking point. Perhaps they are very weak Psykers in the first place, with no perceivable powers. Scientists then only boosted one sense to a extraordinary level by genetic engineering? It may crucially depend on what you think about the Emperor participation in their development. Fluff in Citadel Journal points on him as the creator, but this can easily be exaggeration of imperial propaganda. But if the emperor, the mightiest human psyker ever, really took his part there, he could intentionally lessen their powers to make them less attractive to the warp beings…
Maybe the warp eye act as a 'lens' to collect tons of information and focus it so even the Navigator with its weak Psyker powers can then see the warp? quite possibly, even in spite I’m yet to decide, whether the eye is so important… as I said I envision their difference from Astropath, who can see Astronomican in that they can understand/feel their coordinates within the warp. There is a sense of internal coordination system in human organism – it says to you that you raise an arm or leg, or that you lay on right, not left side, etc… navigators have the same feeling of warp. I guess I laid it out more or less clear.
If all Imperial ships had to have navigators, calculated jump are not needed. I'm sure a navigator can preform short jumps just as well as long jumps. He can, but what for? You can crouch but you walk… so, in your opinion, Imperium ships can travel in the warp w/o navigator or not?
(However this is from the 4th edition and from what Kage has said this bit of the 4th edition will not be part of Anargo.) It maybe part of the ASP as incomplete or biased statement…
So a big Waaagh gets to where it wants, because all the Orks want it? A collective navigator? Yes.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 7:09:06 GMT -5
Ah, my bad... must have been when the same text cropped up in three separate threads. Based upon what I've seen of the likely basis for any future '40k RPG', I can only hope that it never sees the light of day in terms of an official publication. All of which are possible, though please note that it just happened to fit in with the 'theme' of the rest of the ship as well as the Essene's captain. Suspicious imagery, no? Very rough. It doesn't quite work using the whole "worlds" argument. The Imperium also covers volume and, as such, I would dramatically upwardly revise the number of sectors (rather than just assuming 1,000 worlds per sector, therefore 1,000 sectors). Regardless of the specific guestimate, the number is large but not that large. Hmmn... not so sure about the upward estimate of non-military ships but, well, yeah it would work. And that 20% is something that I would strongly suggest is primarily the classis mercatilis. The rest are, for the most part, civilian ships... The boring answer holds, I'm afraid: It depends on your interpretation. Seems like almost everyone is in agreement on this one! I would suggest that integration rather than separation is the way forward. In terms of RPG mechanics they are horrendously easy to represent by taking away the selection of 'powers' available to the pysker, which is one of the reasons that I liked your 'feel' of the Warp rather than passive vision... With regards to the first point, I would suggest that such a hard and fast rule not be followed. Remember that Chaos has 'navigators' as well, primarily psykers as well as daemon-possessed 'navigators' (itself harking towards a psyker origin)... It would be more flexible if it was a threshold thing: to be able to Navigate you would have to learn an entirely different way of operating that is alien to the 'mind techniques' taught through the scholastica psykana. One feature of orks is that they don't need an 'advanced civilisation' to be able to produce advanced goods, nor indeed is technology necessarily related in all ways to successful warp transportation. And this is where the analogies tend to get a tad opaque... Exactly! It is not economically feasible to have a Navigator onboard if all you're going to be doing is making short jumps! One would like to think so, but I doubt it. More likely is the continued shifts that they've been making in the 'fluff' and the wargame mechanics over the various editions to downwardly expand the market to younger and younger age ranges. Unsurprising since it is ultimately derived from the expanded rules in WD139/140 (etc.) to make up for the childishly simple release of Space Fleet back in the day. Different focus, perhaps. I'm reminded of a book I've just finished reading: James Barclay's Shadowheart (a 'Book of the Raven'). In there is a distinction betwee 'magic', which is entirely a construct of the mind, and 'the One', which is not only of the mind but also of the body. One mages are like aesthetics... control over body is control over the mind. An interesting 'fantasy' analogy (cf. 'fluff' from Farseer regarding Navigator training). Once again, this is why zholud's "feeling" is more appealing, although it doesn't have to be represented in yet another system but rather integrated into the pre-established concepts. One might find it useful to question the specific origins of the Navigators: were they created through design, as suggested in the 'fluff', or more through accident? Given the lack of 'psykers' one might imagine the latter rather than the former unless, of course, the Emperor was somehow involved. Or alternatively that is the focus of the aforementioned 'feeling'. 4E logic there. Remember, holism not revisionism. Please note that this is in error. I stipulate only that 4E does not supercede previous material. Furthermore, I would quite readily agree that, for the most part, ships of the Imperium all have Navigators. They do not, however, require them beyond being able to maintain their function and giving them the superior 'tactical' edge. Same thing as Astropaths, just with a different type of communication... That has been the general gist for quite some time, I believe... Oops... you got there first. It also relates to whether you think that the warp drive is a function of 'psyker' (even if artificial) and not pure technology... See above. It is 'truth' insofar as it pertains to "Imperium ships all have navigators"...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 7:45:04 GMT -5
Ah, my bad... must have been when the same text cropped up in three separate threads. It was relevant to all due to the amount of crossover, that and my new copy of 40K turned up ;D One would like to think so, but I doubt it. More likely is the continued shifts that they've been making in the 'fluff' and the wargame mechanics over the various editions to downwardly expand the market to younger and younger age ranges. Talking to the BL that isn't 100% true, seems to me they are aiming for a more mature and discerning market with their publications. I think they figure the games are for the younger players and the books are older (hence the special editions etc.). Also I think the WFB is getting younger and 40K is getting older (I only paint 40K ) Please note that this is in error. I stipulate only that 4E does not supercede previous material. Furthermore, I would quite readily agree that, for the most part, ships of the Imperium all have Navigators. They do not, however, require them beyond being able to maintain their function and giving them the superior 'tactical' edge. Same thing as Astropaths, just with a different type of communication... This is the point I was making in the other thread. I quite like the idea that 'official' = Navigator/ safe, and that 'unofficial' = no Navigator/ dangerous (hence short jumps). I think you can do a navigated jump its just not wise to do it, and in the more stormy areas it is a no no.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Sept 6, 2004 8:12:03 GMT -5
On the Imperium's lack of short jumpsFor those of you who haven't noticed, the ASP is working on the premise that the Imperium have the technology to make short, calculated jumps without navigators, just like Tau, Ork, Kroot and many other aliens who do not have Navigators. This might be totally unfamiliar to you, as it was to me, but apparently it's a part of the old fluff (WD#139 or so) which has been forgotten over time. Still, that doesn't mean that GW works with the principle that all interstellar travel is done by Navigators. As you have pointed out, aliens with lower technology than the Imperium can do it just fine, and I do believe the humans began interstellar colonization before Navigators were created. By the way, to read more about the current ASP view on Ork warp travel (although it has yet to be officially approved by Kage, who is still a busy man), read my Ork article in the Ork forum. As you might have gathered, Navigators are not a dime a dozen. Whilst all Imperial warships are navigated, that doesn't mean that all Imperial ships are Navigated. And as others have said before me in this thread, most of the civil fleet travels without Navigators. So calculated jumps are needed very much. On Navigators shooting Gamma raysYes, they exist. Yes, they can kill. Yes, they can be directed. Yes, they are unrelated to the warp. But the samme applies to lightning bolts, fire balls and poisonous needles. To me, it makes just as much sense for Navigators to use one (or all) of these. No sense at all, that is. Being able to kill by using the warp is not necessarily better than killing by using gamma rays, so I don't understand your worry (zholud) about 'balance'. We agree on the result (death), but not the way it happens. On Navigator autopsyYes, it would be rare. But I still imagine that it would have happened. A Navigated ship might be 'lost in the warp', when really it has been captured by the Inquisition to study the Navigator. The Navigator House might want to retrieve the body, but the Inquisiton and/or Administratum would sadly report that this is impossible since the ship was lost in the warp On Navigator duelsIs there anything in the fluff about this? If so, could you direct me to it? If it's RT-era, perhaps direct me to a website?
|
|