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Post by zholud on Sept 17, 2004 8:35:32 GMT -5
Sounds to me then, like this bubble is just a spherical room, rather than some kind of force field or anything fancy. Agreed. I can say that field-bubble nav-chambers may exist but are extremely rare. After all everything has its place in the dark future. Whether Navigators are found in spherical or cubical rooms doesn't really matter to me Semi-spherical is the best option, with convex window. Most of the fluff suggests that Navigators are found on the bridge, Question is what bridge is look like? If it equals nav-chamber, then no arguing is needed at all. Plus different times of ships may have different needs, thus navigator either alone or not. The novel Legacy confirms this. What do you think about it? about its ending?
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Post by CELS on Sept 17, 2004 9:34:06 GMT -5
Agreed. I can say that field-bubble nav-chambers may exist but are extremely rare. After all everything has its place in the dark future. Yup. Why, pray tell? And why does it matter? To me, it seems like the Navigator can do his job wherever, as long as he has his throne to navigate the ship with. I suppose that leads to the question- What is the Navigator's throne? Which again leads us to - How do Navigators navigate the warp? I guess the throne is just connected with the warp drive and possibly the Geller's field. All Navigatos must have bionic sockets implanted, like the Space Marine's black carapace in certain regards. Without these bionics, the Navigator can see the warp, but not navigate the ship (which incidentally matches Legacy perfectly. How do Navigators navigate the warp... Well, that depends on the warp drive, which is entirely mystical to me. I mean, physical laws do not apply, so any kind of physical propulsion is out of the question. Perhaps they work by negotiating with the warp currents themselves, affecting the waves and currents that pull the ship along. Or maybe they are more like sails, able to catch warp currents (like wind). Would you care to think of some examples to different times and different needs? I've only come to chapter 13, but I'll start a new thread about the novel when I'm finished. So far, so good.
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Post by zholud on Sept 17, 2004 14:24:11 GMT -5
semi-spherical because I guess navigator needs wide line of site and convex because I prefer one window instead of group of illuminators… Which again leads us to - How do Navigators navigate the warp? My present version is connected to Geller field as warp sail hypothesis. Navigator has the feeling through implants on position of sail, the eye sees position of warp currents, and operated the sail via implants in hand or even manually with levers and keys. Navigatos must have bionic sockets implanted, like the Space Marine's black carapace in certain regards. Not all but most. This brings question what other implant they possibly have? They have anti-sleeping thing, whether implant or mutation. Possibly implants to enhance memory for star and warp maps downloading. Any kind of built-in massage system, to get their blood circulating while they navigate. Tubes for feeding. What else? Without these bionics, the Navigator can see the warp, but not navigate the ship (which incidentally matches Legacy perfectly. You mean looking at the warp piece of text? But she wasn’t attempted to navigate… Would you care to think of some examples to different times and different needs? military ships need communication between tech-priest, captain, other officers – thus they on throne on/near the bridge. Merchant ships can have separate nav-chambers. Adeptus Mechanicus ships have sealed navigators due to reasons mentioned above (cloning). I've only come to chapter 13, but I'll start a new thread about the novel when I'm finished. So far, so good. I enjoyed it. Although the language/style is still not as fluent as e.g. Abnett’s…
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 17, 2004 18:18:24 GMT -5
External sensors are a part of the 'fluff', I'm afraid. As to 'warp transparent materials', you do realise how ridiculous this is when the universe is, technically, warp transparent to some navigators? I personally find it more ridiculous to assume that the Navigator actually needs to physically look out onto the warp... It is, however, a part of the 'fluff' and an integral part of many peoples' interpretation. Just so you know that in many ways the argument is ridiculous. Again, Farseer for the description. I don't see the argument that it is 'too hi-tech' as being particularly valid, but I do dislike the imagery involved in them so... Can anyone say Dune? Yes, I thought you could... Ah, plasticryst. Sounds exactly the same as bendium... ') In the older 'fluff', yes. Now they somewhat tediously work on the Lovecraftian principle that if you look at it you go insane... <yawn> The original 'fluff' indicated quite strongly that there was some difference between the normal 'shielding' and 'daemonic shielding'. If you want to assume that I was talking about stone - or even metal - actually repelling daemons then you do that... you'll be completely and utterly wrong but, heck!, some people like that. Please note that the new 'fluff' only has them on the bridge insofar as they are removed from the bridge when they enter the warp. Actually it doesn't... it only says that, consistently with the 'fluff' of the time, it doesn't actually say that they weren't on the bridge... Execution Hour, Farseer, etc. It is there. I hate it, but it is still there... Then again I despise quite a bit about what is happening in the modern 'fluff'. Overt fantasy/Lovecraft imagery, for example... I have absolutely no idea how you can say that Watson is poorly written and compare it against the absolute trash that is the main stay of the BL writers list... I'm sorry, but this is perhaps the most ridiculous thing that I've heard. Yes, some of the writers can produce some good pulp novels but all the ones that I've read have been, for the most part, unadultered twoddle. While in terms of 'fluff' it is in many ways outmoded, the Inquisition War trilogy at least had something go for it that none of the current (that I've read) BL novels have: style. And, once again, I'm not interested in the project to conform to flagrant revisionism. <contented sigh> Yes, yet another exception to a list full of exceptions because of the "Rule of Cool". Erm... Wow. Yep, got my agreement here. In the new 'fluff' - it not being needed in the old 'fluff' - the 'bubble' is a bit of 'glass'. There are no forcefields. Because GW is shifting towards a policy where they are horrendously rare and therefore only present on Imperium ships and not something that you want the enemy getting a hold of? The kind of universe where the only people doing any travelling, and most yawn-worthy, are the damned armies? I would actually be intrigued as to the source of this 'forcefield' navigators 'room'. I haven't been able to bring myself to read 40k novels for quite some time... It is only recently that I nearly burned Coutner's horrendous Soul Drinker "sequel" and was shocked when Sabbat Martyr departed from the formulaic appraoch so valued by BL... Again, they need to see the warp why...? More so when you read the 'fluff' on Navigators...? Execution Hour and the god-awful Shadow Point. (Hmmn... apologies at this point. Realised that I'm being entirely negative due to being stressed. Ever reach that fine point where you really have to do work but realise that if you do it that you're going to go insane? I'm there... hence replying here...) Throne Why can we not just call it a chair? I would say that it the sin qua non definition of a Navigator's interface chair is that it must integrate the 'warp drive', which includes the Geller field, an the power systems of the ship. Cybernetics are a recent addition, but this has always been the case... A "thus sayeth the law moment". Any interpretation which has the Navigator actually directly influencing warp currents will be disregarded. Yes, I'm biased, but the 'warp sail' approach just produces far too many interesting possibilities without skewing the 'fluff' into a "every world is a castle" approach. This is what I believe zholud already works on. And there goes the potentially fasincating 'feel' approach. Back to the whole eye that has to function as an eye... <sigh> <snicker> From the novels that I've read, Abnett is about the only one that can write in a way that appeals to me, and even then the content is always a bit... rusty. I find it amusing that Thorpe so commonly gets slated when Angels of Darkness was one of the first novels that showed some originality in the 40k universe in, well, 15 years. On Farrer I withhold judgement... I've heard good things about it, but I really cannot motivate myself to reading that after reading Counter and wading through the latest x+y Gaunt's Ghost book...
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Post by CELS on Sept 18, 2004 12:12:17 GMT -5
semi-spherical because I guess navigator needs wide line of site and convex because I prefer one window instead of group of illuminators… There's nothing in Legacy to suggest that the Navigator requires line of sight to peer into the warp. Sounds like the Jokaero fluff, where ships are propelled by altering their shape. Why do you suggest that the Geller field steers the ship though, instead of the actual Warp Drive. Judging by its name, you'd think the warp drive would work in the warp, and not just to create a portal to enter and exit the warp. As for pulling levers... in Legacy, the female Navigator feels sorry for the male Navigator who is navigating in a storm, because he must be under a terrible strain and more vulnerable than her. Is this because it is taxing to look into a warp storm for long, or is it because the male Navigator is doing something different than the female Navigator in order to navigate the ship (and not just look at the warp)? Agreed. Space Marines have an implant in their brain that lets them ignore pain, I think. The Navigators would need an implant that lets them turn off their third eye, to keep them from going insane. I didn't say that Legacy says exactly what I said, I just said it matched. In Legacy, the male Navigator (presumably on the throne) navigates the ship, while the female Navigator (not near the throne) just sees the warp without navigating the ship. External sensors are a part of the 'fluff', I'm afraid. As to 'warp transparent materials', you do realise how ridiculous this is when the universe is, technically, warp transparent to some navigators? I personally find it more ridiculous to assume that the Navigator actually needs to physically look out onto the warp... It is, however, a part of the 'fluff' and an integral part of many peoples' interpretation. Just so you know that in many ways the argument is ridiculous. I agree, but I would appreciate it if you chose another word for 'ridiculous'. It sounds slightly condescending, patronizing, mocking, etc. If someone would be so kind as to quote or paraphrase the description, I would be grateful (and probably more helpful to the discussion). I am currently away from all my 40k novels, except Iron Hands and Legacy. There's that patronizing tone again, although thankfully accompanied by a smiley By the way, isn't it about time that we stop commenting every single thing GW has ripped off from other universes? We all get that they do it alot Ah, didn't know that. Is this also from Farseer? Good. One less problem to think about. Again, a quote/paraphrasing would be extremely helpful, if we're going to figure out a way to work through/around this. There's that R-word again... Well, I'm sorry to say that I do not agree with you on this one. Not even a teeny, weeny, wittle bit I disagree 100%. And there you lost me. I agree it was pretty silly. Then at least we can say that its just a matter of style and image, to make the Navigator 'throne' look more glorious, rather than a functional part of the throne. In other words, you're at a loss trying to answer the question (using common sense) as well LoL! What do you mean by this? A first in this reply; I agree with Kage *grin* And then I guess you want us to call autoguns 'machineguns' too, eh? Perfectly alright with me. Ah, good. Didn't notice. Again, I agree with Kage. I don't see the eye as a real eye in any sense, but rather an organ that can feel the warp. It was just named 'Eye' because it looks like one, somewhat. The only reason that it's located on the surface of the forehead, instead of inside the head, is that it needs to be in line of sight to kill people.
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Post by zholud on Sept 20, 2004 8:22:01 GMT -5
External sensors are a part of the 'fluff', I'm afraid. Yes they are. Moreover, they submit some information during warp travel. However, they may submit important info on within bubble situation, and not outside bubble warp readings. It is a hard separate question, which should be made it separate thread (which I will start soon I hope) on warp ad psyker based/related machinery used by the Imperium. My present say is that sensors inform on e.g. relative position of Geller field, while navigator, using this data and his feeling of the warp currents actually guides the ship. As to 'warp transparent materials', you do realise how ridiculous this is when the universe is, technically, warp transparent to some navigators? I point that if navigator may see through walls s/he can be used as almost perfect spy… however, this has been never mentioned in the fluff I’m aware of. So, maybe I change my saying to navigators may see warp through almost any material (exceptions e.g. their hood/bandana). However they prefer minimum interference and thus like watching warp as close as possible. Even using special wide-spectre transparent ‘windows’. I personally find it more ridiculous to assume that the Navigator actually needs to physically look out onto the warp... if s/he has to take off his/her bandana to look at the warp it is physical enough. The question remains on whether navigator actually sees and whether s/he sees with the eye. Again, Farseer for the description. I don't see the argument that it is 'too hi-tech' as being particularly valid, but I do dislike the imagery involved in them so... As I said long ago I really disliked King’s Space Wolf and since then haven’t read any of his books. So I don’t know the description. I only know that you hate Eldar as they are given there… In the older 'fluff', yes. Now they somewhat tediously work on the Lovecraftian principle that if you look at it you go insane... <yawn> I’d say not really insane but it is better not to try to look there… unless you really like risk for the risk’s sake. The original 'fluff' indicated quite strongly that there was some difference between the normal 'shielding' and 'daemonic shielding'. Modern has it too. However, the game mechanics rules and sometime you get really weird situations that emerge due to simplification o the rules. E.g. anti-demon fire thrower of Grey Knights negates all invulnerable saves whatever the source… this becomes really funny with modern bike/skimmer rules, when max speed gives it invulnerable save and thrower negates it Introduction of dodge is considered too hard for players to understand. If you want to assume that I was talking about stone - or even metal - actually repelling daemons then you do that... you'll be completely and utterly wrong but, heck!, some people like that Neither metal nor stone can keep demons away. Its only faith in the Emperor that helps… at least so sayeth Ecclesiarchy… I have absolutely no idea how you can say that Watson is poorly written and compare it against the absolute trash that is the main stay of the BL writers list... I can say it honestly – Space Marine was the 1st 40k novel I’ve read and I really disliked it. It even set me to idea that other BL books are not worthy reading as well. Later I’ve changed my mind. I even plan to buy that Inquisitor wars trilogy hardcover… Again, they need to see the warp why...? Maybe because they try to navigate the ship w/o eye shut… or not? Throne Why can we not just call it a chair? If you look at the pictures throne is actually better fits to the construct… On Geller field as a sail – from my old post. As many forummers may be aware, during the warp movement, an Imperial ship has to be protected by so caller Geller (Gellar? I’ve met both variants) field, which supposedly creates a bulb of the real space around the ship. Any malfunction of the field can lead to some problems, their magnitude ranged from minor (drop out from the warp as in Execution Hour, IIRC) to catastrophic (demonic attack, movement to the Maelstrom warp-reality mix (Blood Quest comics). In the same time, despite ships already got a field, impenetrable by the malicious warp energy, for the movement some strange warp drives are used. Due to the fact that such drives do not affect real space movement, it is not, to my knowledge, described in depth even in the Battlefleet Gothic background. The very nature of this drives is unknown. Do they use emotions as a fuel? Or there is a way to transfer ‘real’ energy to warp energy? Do they use rocket thrust (in that case what they throw away and how it penetrate Geller field)? For myself I’ve found the solution. It is not perfect, but the very fact that, as I become aware, similar ideas were independently developed by other, highly respected by me, background loremasters, says that it can be valid. The idea is that Geller field is used not only for protection but also for movement in the warp, as some kind of sail equivalent. It is pushed by warp currents because it is impenetrable by them. Its form can be significantly different from classical bubble, allowing catching wide range of current and manoeuvring in the warp. The warp engines in this case are either generators of the field or manoeuvre drives, used for fine tuning. The indirect proof of my idea is description of the Death Guard fall to Nurgle. Their ship was set unmoving in the warp, this there was no warp wind in my case. If shutting the field leads to real space, Mortartion had done it, but he didn’t, so it cannot really help. I find it amusing that Thorpe so commonly gets slated when Angels of Darkness was one of the first novels that showed some originality in the 40k universe in, well, 15 years. I also was amused with this novel, especially after reading his short stories which I still hate for the level of ‘because it is cool’ approach. There's nothing in Legacy to suggest that the Navigator requires line of sight to peer into the warp. I gulped the book too quickly (I had 2-week vacations and 10+ books to read), but weren’t that female navigator coming next to wall/illuminator before starting to steer at the warp currents? As for pulling levers... in Legacy, the female Navigator feels sorry for the male Navigator who is navigating in a storm, because he must be under a terrible strain and more vulnerable than her. Is this because it is taxing to look into a warp storm for long, or is it because the male Navigator is doing something different than the female Navigator in order to navigate the ship (and not just look at the warp)? She admits that ship’s navigator with Japanese name is actually superior than her and that she would think twice before raiding such a storm… so I guess it is taxing because he works as navigator, while she is a guest… Space Marines have an implant in their brain that lets them ignore pain, I think. The Navigators would need an implant that lets them turn off their third eye, to keep them from going insane. They prefer hoods and bandanas instead Again, I agree with Kage. I don't see the eye as a real eye in any sense, but rather an organ that can feel the warp. Me too and this mean three
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Post by CELS on Sept 20, 2004 9:44:18 GMT -5
Yes they are. Moreover, they submit some information during warp travel. However, they may submit important info on within bubble situation, and not outside bubble warp readings. Although I'm not sure where you're getting this from, it makes a lot of sense to me. I'd be surprised if it was different. Ok, no, I wouldn't be surprised, I'd be disappointed. LoL. Not unless he or she is spying on someone in the warp. Let me give you a poor example. All the senses in the real world that a Navigator can experience is like eyesight, and a Navigator's warp sense is like hearing. Eventhough there are walls between you and a rock band, that doesn't mean you can't hear them. And it sure doesn't mean that you can see them because you can hear through the walls. Of course, this is a fantastically terrible example, for many reasons which I'm sure Kage will be glad to list. My point, however, is that the Navigator can't be used as a spy just because he can sense the warp through walls. Because the Navigator can only sense the warp with his third eye, and not the chair and person on the other side of the wall. Minimum interference I can understand. But why windows should cause less interference than a rock wall, I don't understand. Transparent materials stop less light than rock does, but they may stop more sound. So why does it matter which material stops more light (rather than sound), if we agree that the Navigator's eye is not a real eye, in the conventional sense. After all, it does not really see anything. It can just sense the warp. As far as I know, the Navigator only needs to take off the bandana to kill someone. In Legacy there is no mention of the female Navigator taking off her bandana and looking out any windows to sense the warp, I think. I will double-check this tonight though. Don't think so. Will double-check. What's an illuminator though? Exactly, so what is he doing different, if they are both looking into the warp, and a Navigator can navigate with the use of levers and buttons? It's obviously not that taxing to look into the warp, so that suggests that the male Navigator is doing something very taxing. In other words, he's not just pushing buttons and pulling levers, is he?
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Post by zholud on Sept 20, 2004 11:46:43 GMT -5
Although I'm not sure where you're getting this from, it makes a lot of sense to me. There are several illustrations that show classical man-chair symbiosis with all that wires, tubes and so on… I cannot recall whether anywhere the throne was actually described, but it should be like that. LoL. Not unless he or she is spying on someone in the warp. Let me give you a poor example. Example is not that bad… currently I just have idea on some degree of prescience based on warp images aka souls with their potential. If navigator feels currents, possibly s/he feels individual warp signatures as well. Minimum interference I can understand. But why windows should cause less interference than a rock wall, I don't understand. Just a simplest route… after all I make it with hope for BL publication and for them I guess to complicated routes are seen as a drawback. What's an illuminator though? Usually round window on ship/submarine. At least I guess so Exactly, so what is he doing different, if they are both looking into the warp, and a Navigator can navigate with the use of levers and buttons? She looked for a minute and hooded the eye again. He steers for days and cannot loose concentration or the ship is doomed. I guess it is his duty that taxes him… however, I hope we’ll hear some stuff on it from a person who knows more.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 21, 2004 8:29:28 GMT -5
A fair enough point, but depending on which 'edition' you prefer fairly meaningless. If you approach the Geller Field as 'reality stabiliser' then making a reading within the 'bubble' is pointless. You know - for the most part - what it is going to say. I'm quivering in anticipation... You might also want to check through the Portent archives at the various threads I've started on the same subject. Actually, maybe just one. Relative to what? If it informs only on what is "within the bubble" then there is no relationship to anything... The bubble exists in isolation... I did not say that. I said the universe, not bits of the universe. The 'most powerful' Navigators can see into the warp from the matterium. Nope. Remember the descriptions about 'opening the eye'. I would strongly suggest - again - that there is some significant difference between the physical and "spiritual" act. The bandana was a means of preventing other people from looking on the pineal eye. The fact that they remove it to 'warp gaze' is more people getting caught up in the specific imagery (eye, blindfold; remove blindfold = see) then the actual act itself. The get out clause is ritualisation, of course... This is entirely a different issue... preference rather than requirement. Again, one might question the nature of this bandana that you seem to be attributing some great significance to. It is arguably just a piece of cloth, not 'eye opaque'.
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Post by zholud on Sept 21, 2004 11:07:19 GMT -5
If you approach the Geller Field as 'reality stabiliser' then making a reading within the 'bubble' is pointless. Readings of the field shape, its density and its position relatively to the ship. I'm quivering in anticipation... You might also want to check through the Portent archives at the various threads I've started on the same subject. The search system for members only. For membership you have to pay via paypal. Paypal stopped acceptance of credit cards from all eastern Europe due to fears of fraud. Thus, don’t you have direct link for it? The 'most powerful' Navigators can see into the warp from the matterium. I’d say that all skilled navigators can see from the matterium. If Astropath can do it (at least the see ‘shadow in the warp’ and Astronomican), then why not navigator? Nope. Remember the descriptions about 'opening the eye'. I would strongly suggest - again - that there is some significant difference between the physical and "spiritual" act. From what I got from different descriptions - eye can kill by its sight even if navigator does not want it. Thus the eye is awake.
- seems, uncovering the eye is enough to see warp…
The bandana was a means of preventing other people from looking on the pineal eye. I guess that opined eye also distracts navigator, as s/he gets two visions, or just more noise from its senses, feeling both warp and real space at the same time. I find that the quality of the book is sometimes related to the speed at which one can read it. But the relation is non-linear I guess.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 22, 2004 6:29:31 GMT -5
Readings of the field shape, its density and its position relatively to the ship. Note that it is mostly interpreted as being 'spherical', centred on the ship. That doesn't conform to the slightly cooler sail imagery, though. It would most likely be best if you dropped this particular concept. Since warp drives have the capability to peer into the warp from the matterium, having them totally blinded to the Geller Field just seems... strange. The search system for members only. Funny, I'm not a Guilder and I can do it... Hmmn, wait no. I just remember who started the thread, or where the thread is referenced, and then go to the Profile of the individual. Then it's merely a case of clicking on "View all threads started by..." and then scrolling through the list. I’d say that all skilled navigators can see from the matterium. If Astropath can do it (at least the see ‘shadow in the warp’ and Astronomican), then why not navigator? That's what I said... Admittedly one might find making a direct analogy beetween 'psykers', more particularly Astropaths, and 'Navigators' might introduce some little glitches... From what I got from different descriptions - eye can kill by its sight even if navigator does not want it. Thus the eye is awake.
- seems, uncovering the eye is enough to see warp…
First point is a part of the 'fluff'. Second point is a by-product of the first with confused imagery. It's older 'fluff' and some people argue the 'quality' (kind of funny given BL, but still) Googol does not uncover his eye before going into a stasis box and yet stares into the warp for a century... Best answer is simple: LOS is required for 'killing', but the eye is always 'awake' in terms of feeling the warp. Physically opening the eye might give some altered/clearer perceptions but it is not necessary to 'see' the warp. (Remembering that one could question the whole idea of engineering a race with a third eye in the first place... Might be just borrowing the concept of the 'hidden eye' (the 'secret eye' associated with insight) and then giving it a physical manifestation in the traditional GW-style...) Oh yes, and with regards to 'uncovering' the eye, there is a significant difference between doing that and actually opening the eye behind the bandana... I guess that opined eye also distracts navigator, as s/he gets two visions, or just more noise from its senses, feeling both warp and real space at the same time. A reasonable possibility. But the relation is non-linear I guess. If it's a good book I'll slow down. Thus it took me longer to read Eisenhorn then, say, the Ragnar books. If a BL novel takes more than a couple of hours to read then that says something... of course, very few have done that!
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Post by zholud on Sept 22, 2004 10:47:53 GMT -5
Note that it is mostly interpreted as being 'spherical', centred on the ship. That doesn't conform to the slightly cooler sail imagery, though. Exactly. Moreover, if its external appearance of the field is hard to imagine because even number of dimensions in the warp may vary. And the internal surface of the field may look like sphere or tear from the distance (from outside=warp )… It would most likely be best if you dropped this particular concept. Since warp drives have the capability to peer into the warp from the matterium, having them totally blinded to the Geller Field just seems... strange. I never said that Gellar field blinds navigator… for its transparent for his/her feeling. While the field’s form per se affected both from inside and outside, its true form in not predetermined. Thus navigators need some info on Gellar fields form during the travel. I can assume that there are sensors that read warp, but one have to say what info they give and why only navigators use it. At least in my interpretation calculated jumps are in reality precalculated jumps, where no sensor are used extensively… they may register warp storm or placid period, but no details… navigator sees them already without gadgets. If you can propose usage for sensors it’ll be great. Funny, I'm not a Guilder and I can do it... Hmmn, wait no. I just remember who started the thread, or where the thread is referenced, and then go to the Profile of the individual. Then it's merely a case of clicking on "View all threads started by..." and then scrolling through the list. This is given to guilders as well… BTW wasn’t you awarded with membership after all your posts? Googol does not uncover his eye before going into a stasis box and yet stares into the warp for a century... maybe he has bad cover Plus wasn’t the eye operating after the death of navigator there (this I know from spoilers ) Best answer is simple: LOS is required for 'killing', but the eye is always 'awake' in terms of feeling the warp. Physically opening the eye might give some altered/clearer perceptions but it is not necessary to 'see' the warp. Agreed. Question arise whether it worth bothering with blind navigators, who sometimes remain after Paternova election. If yes then whether their pineal eye is sleeping or dead? (Remembering that one could question the whole idea of engineering a race with a third eye in the first place... Might be just borrowing the concept of the 'hidden eye' (the 'secret eye' associated with insight) and then giving it a physical manifestation in the traditional GW-style...) I ever play with idea that eye was the stigma and not tool at all, but dropped it later… I guess realisation that spiritual third eye from mystic teachings was more prescience on navigators than anything else is tempting I guess. Meantime a call for brainstorming – what ideas are on navigator inside mythology and on theuir physical Houses… do they have the right to claim planets?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 22, 2004 11:25:28 GMT -5
Moreover, if its external appearance of the field is hard to imagine because even number of dimensions in the warp may vary. And the internal surface of the field may look like sphere or tear from the distance (from outside=warp )… Hmmn... now seems that you're over-complicating things for consistency of argument. Fair enough, we all do it. I'm not overtly sure about saying "It's spherical, Jim, but only as we perceive it..." I never said that Gellar field blinds navigator… And neither did I. for its transparent for his/her feeling. You will note that I stated this above as applying to those phenomenon outside of the Geller Field which, ultimately, is far more useful in my mind. Thus navigators need some info on Gellar fields form during the travel. A given since I believe that conscious manipulation of the field is one of the basic functions of the Navigator. I can assume that there are sensors that read warp, but one have to say what info they give and why only navigators use it. Remember the thermocline concept. At least in my interpretation calculated jumps are in reality precalculated jumps, where no sensor are used extensively… So does everyone else's, zholud. Warp sensors are, however, a part of the original 'fluff'. they may register warp storm or placid period, but no details… I would suggest that that is your assumption and not necessary a correct one. I would suggest that it is significantly more than a Go-No Go situation. navigator sees them already without gadgets. If you can propose usage for sensors it’ll be great. I point out, once again, that sensors are present. I also suggested potential limitations of these sensors... This is given to guilders as well… BTW wasn’t you awarded with membership after all your posts? I have no idea. It was never mentioned to me. I used to be a Veteran, but that's about it. Maybe they've made a mistake, but not one that I'm going to correct. Plus wasn’t the eye operating after the death of navigator there (this I know from spoilers ) The eye did not navigate the warp after the death of the Navigator, no.
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Post by zholud on Sept 24, 2004 8:19:33 GMT -5
I'm not overtly sure about saying "It's spherical, Jim, but only as we perceive it..." <grin> I just try to find the way how to combine sail hypothesis with current fluff. I think that ‘GW stuff is ultimate trash, so it should be thrown out is not the right approach. Several sources mention spherical form of the field… so I introduce quite weak argument that it is not spherical, but it looks like one. I’ll be glad to find other way to complement to official fluff if you know it (way, not fluff ). A given since I believe that conscious manipulation of the field is one of the basic functions of the Navigator. And do you agree that s/he manipulate the field manually, and not ‘spiritually’, right? So does everyone else's, zholud. Not everyone… as Philip noted, GW forgot to mention calculated jumps at all in the newest edition… BTW, other fluff there is also too raw… seems they were hurry. Warp sensors are, however, a part of the original 'fluff'. Question is what they sense and how they measure it. I agree that they exist and only point that they always were n grey area of the fluff. I would suggest that that is your assumption and not necessary a correct one. I would suggest that it is significantly more than a Go-No Go situation. I agree with that as well. By the way a great eloquent attempt to say no, you’re wrong The eye did not navigate the warp after the death of the Navigator, no. I pointed that it still had some powers/abilities, not that it was able to navigate… And what about mansions, fief planets and limitation of Navis Nobilite owned ships? Any ideas?
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 26, 2004 8:36:16 GMT -5
<grin> I just try to find the way how to combine sail hypothesis with current fluff. It's not really working, though, since the imagery being presented is rather glitchy. How about simplistic imagery-driven approach: When a ship is precipitating into/out of the warp the Geller Field is ellipsoid. Liken this to 'closing the hatches' if you will, or 'furling the sails'. It creates a stronger 'barrier' in crossing the threshold... I'm sure Destecado could make this consistent with his ZPF concept. When you're actually in the warp, though, you 'unfurl the sails'. The shape of the field alters depending on the pre-programmed pathway or a the behest of a navigator... Given that there are sensors within the ship that can represent the view, why cannot someone else do this? Simply that they have a very limited, 2D representation, for one... It's like a feint punch followed by a proper punch. The non-Navigator would see the feint and believe it was the real thing, while the Navigator would see both... Liken this to prescience if you will, but I personally work on the principle that they can 'see'/feel with greater clarity. I think that ‘GW stuff is ultimate trash, so it should be thrown out is not the right approach. It's more than likely a language barrier, but while I do have some problems with some of the specifics of GW 'fluff' you will note that, for the most part, I try and keep things consistent. Everyone has a tendency of putting the stuff they like on a dais and trashing what they don't like as "not making sense" or being "inconsistent". Everyone, zholud. Even yourself. I of course realise that this is probably a redundant statement since it is more than like that language gig, but still... I’ll be glad to find other way to complement to official fluff if you know it (way, not fluff ). LOL... See the above as one possible suggestion that would be consistent not only with the 'fluff' but also with Destecado's ZPF concept... It also has some interesting implications as the the form of the warp drive, it's sub-components, etc. And do you agree that s/he manipulate the field manually, and not ‘spiritually’, right? Manually would be the wrong word, but yes I do agree. That's the whole point of the direct neural interface to the ships systems... Not everyone… as Philip noted, GW forgot to mention calculated jumps at all in the newest edition… Pedantic-much? (And the return comment to me would be "Hyprocrisy-much!" ) I sometimes forget the trends in GW 'fluff' to "dumbing down" and also away from 'sci-fantasy' to 'fantasy'. Question is what they sense and how they measure it. I agree that they exist and only point that they always were n grey area of the fluff. Absolutely no idea... Perhaps integrate your original idea. Rather than sensing what is inside the Geller Field, it senses what is in contact with the Geller Field, representing this as a 2D image... The Navigator's senses extend beyond this into n-dimensions. I agree with that as well. By the way a great eloquent attempt to say no, you’re wrong LOL... was not saying that you were wrong, only that the limited approach advocated in your original statement is not something that I agree with. Doesn't mean that it was wrong. Some people have actually argued that it is a "Go, No-Go" situation with ships required calculated warp jumps just hanging around for years while they determine whether it is possible to make a jump or not. I pointed that it still had some powers/abilities, not that it was able to navigate… Narrative suspension of disbelief must also be considered. And what about mansions, fief planets and limitation of Navis Nobilite owned ships? Any ideas? It depends entirely on what specific questions you have.
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