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Post by Philip on Sept 6, 2004 8:53:08 GMT -5
At the risk of causing trouble The amount of Navigators and the amount of travel in Anargo was for me a bit of a problem. If all Imperial ships are Navigated and Navigators are rare, the amount of travel reduces, this is a problem for 'dependant hives' and the reason for my STC designs (as I said, I was linking them all together). Getting around this without hydroponics and a high degree of self sufficiently is going to be interesting. The only ways is to increase travel is to seriously deviate from the fluff and have billions of Navigators or, to allow billions of 'calculated' jump. With an Anargo angle, I would go for 'calculated jumps' but keep them very short. However this may just be storing problems up for later. To keep to fluff, hydroponic have to be used, and as someone mentioned in another thread: Hydroponics do turn up in a 40K novel....
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Post by zholud on Sept 6, 2004 13:04:08 GMT -5
Based upon what I've seen of the likely basis for any future '40k RPG', I can only hope that it never sees the light of day in terms of an official publication. It depends whether its creators will look up on the ASP on not Seems you became too die hard old believer. After all they created a lot of new material in GW and BL over the years, starting with Horus Heresy, description of original 18 SMM Legions and much more. of course a lot of stuff is biased and even contradictory, but all-in-all, I still hope that good 40k RPG (not fighting fantasy aka Inquisitor) will be created. All of which are possible, though please note that it just happened to fit in with the 'theme' of the rest of the ship as well as the Essene's captain. Suspicious imagery, no? I generally suspected that the trader was closely related either with cult Mechanicus, or more likely with its heretics, but seems that imaginary does not change overall picture related to navigators, does it? Very rough. It doesn't quite work using the whole "worlds" argument. The Imperium also covers volume and, as such, I would dramatically upwardly revise the number of sectors (rather than just assuming 1,000 worlds per sector, therefore 1,000 sectors). My point was that battle fleet is sector based and we (1) have its average size and (2) we need number of sectors in the Imperium to get sum of battle fleets. Regardless of the specific guestimate, the number is large but not that large. If possible try to present your own guesstimate on the basis of some calculations and not just intuition. The boring answer holds, I'm afraid: It depends on your interpretation. So, I am interested in your (generic to all reader) guesstimate – how large in average Navigator family and why?With regards to the first point, I would suggest that such a hard and fast rule not be followed. Remember that Chaos has 'navigators' as well, primarily psykers as well as daemon-possessed 'navigators' (itself harking towards a psyker origin)... We know too little about chaos navigators, thrall demons and so on to set up their capabilities. to be able to Navigate you would have to learn an entirely different way of operating that is alien to the 'mind techniques' taught through the scholastica psykana. Plus you have to have navigator gene Once again, this is why zholud's "feeling" is more appealing, although it doesn't have to be represented in yet another system but rather integrated into the pre-established concepts. I’m glad that it has an appeal and I think it does not need any new system… so, its fine with me to work with pre-established concepts. Furthermore, I would quite readily agree that, for the most part, ships of the Imperium all have Navigators. But then I underestimated the number of navigators… or overestimated non-military (merchant and civil) fleet. This is the point I was making in the other thread. I quite like the idea that 'official' = Navigator/ safe, and that 'unofficial' = no Navigator/ dangerous (hence short jumps). Moreover, I usually say navigator=sail travel of large ship, calculated jumps – boat with oars, that goes closer to the coast (=realspace) By the way, to read more about the current ASP view on Ork warp travel (although it has yet to be officially approved by Kage, who is still a busy man), read my Ork article in the Ork forum. I too have to read it. By Yes, they exist. Yes, they can kill. Yes, they can be directed. Yes, they are unrelated to the warp. But the samme applies to lightning bolts, fire balls and poisonous needles. I’ve needed something unseen in my example… needles are visible, as well as fireballs. At the same time electricity is a nice another example of this – if manta can possess ability to kill with electricity, why not navigator. Not that I need to have navigators to use electricity, just to point that non-warp killing force is possible. As Kage mentioned, its analogy that strayed too far. By Being able to kill by using the warp is not necessarily better than killing by using gamma rays, so I don't understand your worry (zholud) about 'balance'. We agree on the result (death), but not the way it happens. It was with my, now almost discarded idea of non-psyker navigators, so I searched for the way to kill personally, directly by eye and w/o warp. By Yes, it would be rare. But I still imagine that it would have happened. A Navigated ship might be 'lost in the warp', when really it has been captured by the Inquisition to study the Navigator. In my write up they salvaged corpse from pogrom made my local version of Red Redemption cult… and to show Inquisitor that the Families have long arms he mysteriously disappeared in the warp storm shortly after… By Is there anything in the fluff about this? If so, could you direct me to it? If it's RT-era, perhaps direct me to a website? Some stuff was in Fluff Bible, some on Bill King site and some in Citadel journal 18… I’ll post description later I hope… just a short excerpt not to fringe any laws.
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Post by Kage2020 on Sept 6, 2004 19:09:57 GMT -5
Then that's your bad. This is predicated merely on revisionism, which has no place here. Why? Well, we're not after the fast buck. The holistic 'fluff' allows for more calculated jumps. Reading through the various threads shows that th is is how it has always been. Don't ready too much into the fact that what I see GW producing and what would be 'good'. Ah, the exception to the exception rule... OFFS... Was actually agreeing with you beyond your assumption of worlds/sectors as posted elsewhere. Will henceforth disagree with you out of comedic intolerance. Never really thougth about it, to be honest, but I'm tempted to treat them as 'countries'... Smacks of an excuse made when something doesn't quite fit with the way that you're thinking about it... Ah yes, of course... Erm, are you sure that's not too biased...? Unfortunately that needs slightly more coherent explanation!
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 3:26:27 GMT -5
Are you saying there are different warp depths, that a ship can choose to go deeper, this sounds more like sub marine than sailing, which is an interesting idea to be sure. So would ships doing a short hop actually leave this universe or be partially present in both
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Post by zholud on Sept 7, 2004 5:35:22 GMT -5
At the risk of causing trouble OK, if you really dare… The amount of Navigators and the amount of travel in Anargo was for me a bit of a problem. Taking into account that we attempt to create average sector and stick to the fluff in this subject as close as possible, this can probably mean that your assumptions on the warp travel in the Imperium are not correct. If all Imperial ships are Navigated and Navigators are rare, Rareness can still show amusingly high numbers in terms of Imperium, due to its size… you see marines here and there but they are fewer marines than worlds in the Imperium… the amount of travel reduces, this is a problem for 'dependant hives' and the reason for my STC designs (as I said, I was linking them all together). The Hiveworlds ought to be dependent, this was more than once clearly stated in the fluff, e.g.: Hive worlds are distinguished by vast, continent-spanning cities, often built high into the sky and deep below the ground. Their populations are enormous, and almost all food needs to be imported. A hive world rendered temporarily inaccessible through warp space will suffer a devastating famine within a very short space of time.Rogue Trader Surface generally inhospitable, even deadly, to human life after centuries of processing. Urban conglomerations called Hives, many miles in height, are principle population centres. Factory, mining and atmosphere processing are main industries. High import/export ratio, particularly foodstuffs and fresh water incoming. – 3rd ed rulebook Goods move constantly through the hive. Imports and some raw material go downwards, other raw materials come upwards from the Underhive, and manufactured goods travel up into the Spire and off planet. The Merchant Guild controls all traffic between the Houses, and consequently is as populous, wealthy, and as important as any of the Noble Houses themselves. - The Merchant Guild, Necromunda rulebook Hive worlds are another extremely important type of world. Hive Worlds are planets which, in all but a few cases, were settled thousands of years ago, often before the time of the Imperium, during the Dark Age of Technology when mankind first spread throughout the galaxy. A Hive World has a population which far outweighs its own ability to feed or support it, often exceeding a thousand billion people on a planet the size of Earth. Such vast numbers of people exert such pressure upon the environment that few hive worlds can sustain life naturally. Many have no free ground surface left because they are entirety built over, with new buildings constructed on top of old ones, to the extent that the planet is no more than a huge urban conglomeration. Confrontation (pre-book issue version of Necromunda, WD 105)All in all, as you can see different sources point that hives export and import quite a lot. Getting around this without hydroponics and a high degree of self sufficiently is going to be interesting. They do have hydroponics, but as any system they with each recycling lose something, so that only for a limited number of time e.g. food it recycled. I used 50 times plus each time you loose 10% nutrient value. The only ways is to increase travel is to seriously deviate from the fluff and have billions of Navigators or, to allow billions of 'calculated' jump. So, you can see now calculated jumps are the norm of the fluff, including official one
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Post by zholud on Sept 7, 2004 8:45:58 GMT -5
Don't ready too much into the fact that what I see GW producing and what would be 'good'. I agree that at the present I cannot suggest BL novels to anyone, who isn’t interested in 40k and knows what is the meaning in these books, but saying that there is nothing good… for me they are still superior to WotC (former TSR) novels, except maybe for the first Dragonlance saga, which in turn is worse than stuff made by no-game-universe authors. Maybe I’m biased. Never really thougth about it, to be honest, but I'm tempted to treat them as 'countries'... Families as countries… what do you mean? Size, diversity, existence of the government? Smacks of an excuse made when something doesn't quite fit with the way that you're thinking about it... We all make it from time to time. Point is that they are chaos navigators or its equivalent for navigators… if they use demons to move ship, they may as well prefer warp beings to guide it… except the fact that you should control such guides. Ah yes, of course... Erm, are you sure that's not too biased...? Are you joking or asking whether navigators really have to born as navigator? To Dazo – yes I guess there are different depth of the warp, and the deeper you go the faster you may move, but the more dangerous the way is. Plus it is linked to my concept (developed independently by Kage) on Geller field as a warp sail…
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 10:16:06 GMT -5
Thats so radical, where is this discussion/concept you speak of. What would that look like to some one observing, would the ship disapear, become transparent what. I can't help but think of interdimensional travel on stargate with the tunnel like effect How dare you, recant this instant, the first dragonlance saga was a work of art its the reason i'm so interested in fantasy and why my book collection numbers in the hundreds many of which are TSR are you suggesting I have poor tastes
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Post by CELS on Sept 7, 2004 11:34:37 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad to see the thread is heading in a direction I like, mainly. Is anyone going to summarize this in an ASP article though? I seem to recall zholud talking about writing an article for Black Library, but that pretty much means we can't use it, or even small chunks of it.
As for Navigator Houses, I see them more like galaxy-spanning brotherhoods than countries. Clans, if you will. I see the largest houses having a significant percentage of all Navigators. Maybe as much as 30% between the top five houses. With the greatest houses having so many members, this means that they can procreate more easily than the small houses which are forced to ally themselves with other houses, and have inter-house marriages.
Really though, how do Navigator marriages work? Navigators seem to spend their entire lives on ships. Do they return to their home for a few months every decade, to try to have children?
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Post by Philip on Sept 7, 2004 12:48:50 GMT -5
The Hiveworlds ought to be dependent, this was more than once clearly stated in the fluff, e.g.: Hive worlds are distinguished by vast, continent-spanning cities, often built high into the sky and deep below the ground. Their populations are enormous, and almost all food needs to be imported. A hive world rendered temporarily inaccessible through warp space will suffer a devastating famine within a very short space of time.Rogue Trader Surface generally inhospitable, even deadly, to human life after centuries of processing. Urban conglomerations called Hives, many miles in height, are principle population centres. Factory, mining and atmosphere processing are main industries. High import/export ratio, particularly foodstuffs and fresh water incoming. – 3rd ed rulebook Goods move constantly through the hive. Imports and some raw material go downwards, other raw materials come upwards from the Underhive, and manufactured goods travel up into the Spire and off planet. The Merchant Guild controls all traffic between the Houses, and consequently is as populous, wealthy, and as important as any of the Noble Houses themselves. - The Merchant Guild, Necromunda rulebook Hive worlds are another extremely important type of world. Hive Worlds are planets which, in all but a few cases, were settled thousands of years ago, often before the time of the Imperium, during the Dark Age of Technology when mankind first spread throughout the galaxy. A Hive World has a population which far outweighs its own ability to feed or support it, often exceeding a thousand billion people on a planet the size of Earth. Such vast numbers of people exert such pressure upon the environment that few hive worlds can sustain life naturally. Many have no free ground surface left because they are entirety built over, with new buildings constructed on top of old ones, to the extent that the planet is no more than a huge urban conglomeration. Confrontation (pre-book issue version of Necromunda, WD 105)All in all, as you can see different sources point that hives export and import quite a lot. All good stuff! Thanks They do have hydroponics, but as any system they with each recycling lose something, so that only for a limited number of time e.g. food it recycled. I used 50 times plus each time you loose 10% nutrient value. I agree with the idea of losses, Kage has brought that up too, and I think there are many looses to take into account (for example: If a person leaves an enclosed self sufficient system then that system would be ‘down’ one person weight of biomass. This would obviously have to be replaced to maintain output.) Are you saying there are different warp depths, that a ship can choose to go deeper, this sounds more like sub marine than sailing, which is an interesting idea to be sure. I think a Submarine would be better analogy for warp travel than sailing ship as it takes into account the 3D(?) aspect of the warp unlike the 2D surface of the sea. However, it would be a submarine with no ‘drives’, more like a diving bell dragged along by the deep sea currents (bearing in mind that the warp flows much quicker than the deep sea currents.)
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Post by zholud on Sept 7, 2004 14:27:53 GMT -5
Thats so radical, where is this discussion/concept you speak of. Kage said that he’s met something on it in official fluff, so it is so radical that was possibly made by GW/BL. How dare you, recant this instant, the first dragonlance saga was a work of art its the reason i'm so interested in fantasy and why my book collection numbers in the hundreds many of which are TSR are you suggesting I have poor tastes I have to admit that I started to learn English with Forgotten Realms book, and I liked it because I literally rewrote it… but now I see that I’d better to meet something else and not these books. They are not bad, just not as good as other stuff. I seem to recall zholud talking about writing an article for Black Library, but that pretty much means we can't use it, or even small chunks of it. I’ll try to say it with other words.. direct copying is no-no but spoilers of unpublished stuff are different. As for Navigator Houses, I see them more like galaxy-spanning brotherhoods than countries. Clans, if you will. I just think that clans are overused in fluff – hive clans, Kage’s Eldar clans, Orks clans… Really though, how do Navigator marriages work? Navigators seem to spend their entire lives on ships. Do they return to their home for a few months every decade, to try to have children? I guess they have some free time, plus I point in my fluff that male navigators are more widely seen because female are longer off-duty due to bearing children…
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Post by CELS on Sept 7, 2004 16:21:51 GMT -5
I’ll try to say it with other words.. direct copying is no-no but spoilers of unpublished stuff are different. In other words, you are going to write an article on Navigators for the ASP? If so, great I definitely agree with that, but I wasn't suggesting that you actually call them clans. I just see Houses as being more like families, clans, brotherhoods, rather than merchant houses or political factions. So, structurally and socially, I see them as brotherhoods or clans, but I don't suggest that you call them Navigator Clans. You discriminating, chauvinist bastard I agree though ;D
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Post by Philip on Sept 7, 2004 16:36:44 GMT -5
Wouldn’t Navigators be like a whole separate society but within the Imperial hierarchy? Also I don’t like the idea that Navigators are slaves, as they are very rich and refered to as ‘nobles’ (just funny looking nobles). In their society I’m sure a proportion of the Navigators no longer navigate, and are occupied doing other things. Someone must run the houses, mix it in the political arena and keep track of everything. The Navigators seem to have the status of a ‘knight’ within the Imperial hierarchy. They are all nobles, or have noble blood but that doesn’t mean every last one is of fighting the crusades.
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Post by Dazo on Sept 7, 2004 16:56:59 GMT -5
Well apparently they have their own vast compounds on terra or at least the different houses do, and i've only ever heard navigators being described as part of a house. And to put that into perspective the Emporer, the inquisition and the administratum are the only ones to rival the navigator houses for real estate.
As do I CELS, as do I. They must go at like animals though considering how long their men folk are away...did I just write that out loud...*whistles, and sidles off into shadows*hehehe
Don't navigators tend to mutate more as they get older, I believe its even hinted at that they are not really human anymore.
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Post by zholud on Sept 8, 2004 4:45:26 GMT -5
I think a Submarine would be better analogy for warp travel than sailing ship as it takes into account the 3D(?) aspect of the warp unlike the 2D surface of the sea. Generally with submarine, in spite of existence of common points with the warp travel, there is a problem of analogy taken too far, as Kage says. In other words, you are going to write an article on Navigators for the ASP? If so, great At least I hope to write it… maybe I have to finish SRs of two my planets first, polish out other planets and concepts on my Hiveworld sub-sector… I definitely agree with that, but I wasn't suggesting that you actually call them clans. I just see Houses as being more like families, clans, brotherhoods Agreed on families, quite large and ancient, with grudges against each other and another remake of Romeo and Juliet for 40k You discriminating, chauvinist bastard Not as much as Dazo For example in my write up I point out that: … Most of navigators are male, but the primary reason for this is not a superiority of male navigators, but the necessity to preserve females for child-bearing. Actually rare female navigators show the knowledge and skills superior to their counterparts. It is not without reason that even the first Emperor’s personal spaceship, ‘Liberatum’ was navigated by female navigator…I guess that with mutations it is quite likely that pregnancy is much harder to navigators than to ordinary humans, after all over 90% of present-day actual human mutations related to genital [reproductive] organs, so maybe mother’s death is also not too rare. Wouldn’t Navigators be like a whole separate society but within the Imperial hierarchy? Yes they are, thus mystery on their ways and true nature and actions. This is in the official fluff already. Also I don’t like the idea that Navigators are slaves, Slaves during the DAoT, not in the Imperium. Again it was hinted in fluff. There still may be slave navigators because Imperium is so huge… that even slave space marines are possible. Well apparently they have their own vast compounds on terra or at least the different houses do, and i've only ever heard navigators being described as part of a house. Because most of them are part of some house/family. And to put that into perspective the Emporer, the inquisition and the administratum are the only ones to rival the navigator houses for real estate. This was mentioned in the fluff, but haven’t any further details. So I try to make them up. Don't navigators tend to mutate more as they get older, I believe its even hinted at that they are not really human anymore. Yes they mutate. Question is whether they ever have been human before…
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Post by Philip on Sept 8, 2004 6:46:54 GMT -5
For example in my write up I point out that: … Most of navigators are male, but the primary reason for this is not a superiority of male navigators, but the necessity to preserve females for child-bearing. Actually rare female navigators show the knowledge and skills superior to their counterparts. It is not without reason that even the first Emperor’s personal spaceship, ‘Liberatum’ was navigated by female navigator…I guess that with mutations it is quite likely that pregnancy is much harder to navigators than to ordinary humans, after all over 90% of present-day actual human mutations related to genital [reproductive] organs, so maybe mother’s death is also not too rare. =Navigator Society=The workings of navigator society is a fascinating area of 40k, however I doubt this area is ever going to be centre stage, and so official fluff may always be a bit light. It is interesting to contemplate how the Navigators maintain control of their own destiny, don't become 'slaves', why there aren't any clones etc. =Premise of my take=If the navigators are weak Psykers, and the warp eye acts as a 'lens' to magnify the information coming from the warp into the Navigator's underpowered 'warp feel' ability. In edition to that, in order for the navigator to use their abilities they have to be weak Psykers otherwise other Psyker abilities 'drown out the sense' like too much static. On top of that, Mutants and Psykers spring up all through out the Imperium, and considering the Navigators are weak Psykers wouldn't they be more likely to have full Psyker children. =My take=The GAoT Conundrum: Navigation is a very delicate sense, and therefore the presence of higher powered abilities drown this sense out. However with out the high power awareness, a person can't make use of the weak signal.Hence the 'Warp Eye' development program... As Navigators have to be weak Psykers, any child born who is a full Psyker will not be able to Navigate the warp as they will 'see/ hear/feel' to much 'static/ interference'. This would mean a full Psykers can never navigate (ever), and other weak psykers do not have the eye, so they can't navigate either. The second idea is that if a Navigator with the 'magnifying' warp eye is born a full Psyker, and able to perceive much more of the warp and indeed channel the warp, that the warp eye would burn a hole straight through their brain: overloading it to the point of total destruction (Bang!). The last point is: as the warp is emotional, and females have greater emotional capacity, and 'female intuition' wouldn't they be more likely to become a Psyker? If this is so, it may result in far less female navigators in the Imperium, but those that do exist would be 'brilliant' due to their multitasking, touchy feely brain. =Control=A Navigator child would have to be screened at birth for any sign of full Psyker abilities markers and if found the pregnancy would be terminated (it is better for the child not to have it's head go BANG!). However, if a very strong Psyker marker is detected, perhaps surgery could be preformed to remove the 'warp eye' and have the child grow up as a normal Psyker (no navigator ability). Maybe this mutilated mutant of a mutant has a place in Navigator society, perhaps some kind of secret navigator assassin/ protector/ bodyguard (after all how could you tell, if wearing an eye cover?). It may be this non-navigator Psyker is the reason people think some navigators have Psyker powers? Finally, Cloning. I think that maybe: Navigators have a natural tendency to be born as full Psykers unless the Navigator's doctors intervene. Perhaps they administer special (hormone) drugs to control the foetus' development. These drug are the key to making new Navigators, without the drugs and the Navigator houses know-how, a Navigator clone born of stolen DNA would be a full Psyker (an unstable, head exploding Psyker at that!) =Society=I don't think female stay at home to breed children, as zholud pointed out they make the best navigators, and such a resource isn't going to be wasted by the Imperium. Also the rarity and power of female Navigators would be a heavy influence on society, and it maybe matriarchal in nature. In our modern world airline pilots manage to have families, so do military personnel and oil rig workers. However, this does leave their wife at home, and is the model I assume zholud, CELS and Dazo are thinking of. There is an alternative: Navigators could travel in families! As female Navigator's would be very, very rare, very powerful, and high status then they would be married off at a young age (arranged, take their pick, gene screen selection?), so any mature female navigator an person encounters is always going to be married. This means that if there's a female Navigator on ship, a male Navigator (husband) is nearby keeping an eye on things. With regard to the fluff: 'single' (unmarried) male navigators can be found alone on ships (probably why they look so unhappy), but females are accompanied and always 'married'. As most GW/BL fiction deals with male Navigators this concept could be 'slipped in' and we just assume they are just 'single/ unmarried.
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