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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 18, 2004 16:33:04 GMT -5
Bi-pedal is probably not going to work. Even bottom feeding creatures that have legs and walk across the bottom of the sea have more than two legs. A crab usually has four and a lobster or horseshoe crab even more. You would need more than two legs under water to anchor yourself in a strong current. Have you ever tried to stand in the ocean as wave come craching up? Being bi-pedal, we are usually knocked over. A creature with at least four legs can balance themselves better in strong surf, preventing the natural tendnecy to be knocked over by the waves. Eeuuugghh...this is a real dilemma for me. I'm getting the idea that bi-pedal underwater dwellers are evolutionarily unfeasable, but i am reluctant to dispense of the last remnant of the original Amphiblians (their first name), which the humanoid body structure. Bottom-walkers is definitely out though, it was a bad idea. Perhaps their flexible bone structure (of a currently undefined nature) could help counteract the current irregularities by allowing them to "go with the flow"  . Erk. I really dont like the squid imagery. Besides, it seems like that would shoot down any hope of them walking upright when abovewater. Or was that the point? Naw, an exoskeleton isn't really what I had in mind. Nice idea, though. Cartilage...I could live with that.  Come to think of it, that might be perfect. They swim underwater, and the cartilage/bone allows them to operate on land, giving the "appearance" of being bipedal.(?) My only problem with this is the idea that older Atlanteans could not mvoe around above water. I don't want to cripple them to an army of total "Whiteshields", they need field veterans to lead them. However, this could be integrated another way. Perhaps in the very oldest Atlanteans, the ones in their last century-and-a-half or so, could be confined to underwater to to a weakening of the cartilage, the equivalent of osteoperosis (sp?) in humans. But where O. just makes elderly humans prone to bone breakage, this breakdown of the cartilage makes it not dense enough to support their body weight. Same result, but different concept. Never seen Farscape. What's it about? Well, no more of an exoskeleton than Power Armor is for a human (not a Space Marine, it technically is for them). It wouldn't be too hard to add rigid portions to the suits, though, to give more stability. Cool, giant squids with inner ears. This is perfectly feasable. |
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Post by Destecado on May 18, 2004 17:02:45 GMT -5
Eeuuugghh...this is a real dilemma for me. I'm getting the idea that bi-pedal underwater dwellers are evolutionarily unfeasable, but i am reluctant to dispense of the last remnant of the original Amphiblians (their first name), which the humanoid body structure. Bottom-walkers is definitely out though, it was a bad idea. Perhaps their flexible bone structure (of a currently undefined nature) could help counteract the current irregularities by allowing them to "go with the flow" . The only way I see you being able to keep the bi-pedal concept is to either dispense with the idea of seas and mabe go with them having developed in salt marshes or other still bodies of water. They will develope olong the line of skinks or other fresh water amphibians....unfortunately, your going to end up with something close to the slaan from Warhammer Fantasy. Its just hard finding an evolutionary reason why they would have left the water and lived on land. Even sea turtles that lay their eggs on land have four flippers instead of two legs... Erk. I really dont like the squid imagery. Besides, it seems like that would shoot down any hope of them walking upright when abovewater. Or was that the point? They would be semi-upright, but having anything that evolved in the sea standing upright on land is going to be difficult. My only problem with this is the idea that older Atlanteans could not mvoe around above water. I don't want to cripple them to an army of total "Whiteshields", they need field veterans to lead them. However, this could be integrated another way. Perhaps in the very oldest Atlanteans, the ones in their last century-and-a-half or so, could be confined to underwater to to a weakening of the cartilage, the equivalent of osteoperosis (sp?) in humans. But where O. just makes elderly humans prone to bone breakage, this breakdown of the cartilage makes it not dense enough to support their body weight. Same result, but different concept. Its that size issue thing. Once they reach a certain size, they won't be able to support their own weight. Their life cycle is longer than humans. They only grow this large after about 60-80 years. Never seen Farscape. What's it about? This would take to long to explain and detract from the overall conversation. If you are interested in finding out about the series, take a look a the following link. It explains the basic premise as well as providing episodes synopsies and character bios. www.scifi.com/farscape/ |
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Post by Kage2020 on May 18, 2004 17:34:58 GMT -5
I forget the race name, but there is a rather interesting race from the Traveller 2300AD: Man's Battle for the STars... Pentapods! that's them!... which have a distinct relationship between the 'surface' Pentapods (which they call 'bullets', temporary things that serve a specific function) and the "Mother Pentapods", which were deep sub-surface aquatic 'breeders'. Perhaps that is a concept that could be bastardised for the Atlanteans? Kage |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 18, 2004 18:49:25 GMT -5
Hmmmmm...worth thinking about, but a deep departure from the current imagery....
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Post by CELS on May 18, 2004 23:11:14 GMT -5
Well... now that I finally have time to reply to this thread, it seems all the smart things have been said already. Tough competition here Yes, it really seems like you're going to have to modify your original idea to an extent. And you want them to be native to an underwater enviroment, yet you don't really want them to be at a disadvantage when on land. That seems like a bit much to ask... Personally, I think I would go with the idea of fully enclosed armour to keep them upright on land, and I'd say that they were unable to move properly on land. Instead of feet, I would give them something similar to sea turtle flippers. I just love the image of very aquatic-looking suits of armour walking up from the depths of the ocean guns blazing. And the image of aliens with liquid-filled helmets is just too cool! (Like Ed Harris in The Abyss) Oooh, oooh, and then when you shoot them, the liquid just flows out of their armour. Hitting one with a rocket launcher would be like hitting a watertank! KA-PLOSH! ;D Well, that's just my opinion. I don't think I can help you with deciding, Glyphstone. Seems like Destecado has given you most of the alternatives mother earth offers  |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 19, 2004 5:42:28 GMT -5
Funnily enough, the very first imagery had them with flippers of sorts, more like oars. Back when their legs were chains of tiny bones, I imagined them swimming using their legs like oars. That's gone, but flippers on the feet are feasible.
Come to think of it, "powered" armor (ugh) would give me the reasoning to grant them heavier armor ratings(WARGAME).
Destacado, would the cartiliage concept work? A more rigid form of cartilage that allows them enough inner-body strength to operate above water? The armor would still be needed to allow them to walk, but the cartilage/bony chains would give upper body strength so they could fight effectively.
CELS: I had also envisioned the armor like you did (well, the bit about water flowing out). This would probably leave the suit damaged and likely kill the Atlantean (since they dry out quickly above water).
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Post by CELS on May 19, 2004 6:28:41 GMT -5
Funnily enough, the very first imagery had them with flippers of sorts, more like oars. Back when their legs were chains of tiny bones, I imagined them swimming using their legs like oars. That's gone, but flippers on the feet are feasible. I did mean flippers instead of legs though (like sea turtles), not instead of feet (like ducks) Come to think of it, "powered" armor (ugh) would give me the reasoning to grant them heavier armor ratings(WARGAME). CELS: I had also envisioned the armor like you did (well, the bit about water flowing out). This would probably leave the suit damaged and likely kill the Atlantean (since they dry out quickly above water). Well... you might have to come up with something clever here, unless you want them to be that vulnerable. A graze shot in the foot, which would only slow a human trooper, would kill an Atlantean given a bit of time. Perhaps they cover their body is some kind of oil or grease before going to battle. What about breathing though? Can they breathe air? (Btw, for 40k, I'm thinking a 3+, and probably T2 toughness. You might argue that they should have a 4+ save and T3, but that wouldn't make them as interesting to play... But we'll discuss this later, I suppose  |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 19, 2004 15:15:42 GMT -5
I did mean flippers instead of legs though (like sea turtles), not instead of feet (like ducks) Well, can I get away with a bit of physiological weirdness here? If I make them like turtles, they're now about 2 feet tall (arms are usually in proportion to bodies and legs). Yeah, I did intend for them to be vulnerable in this way, though not that vulnerable. Perhaps multiple layers of protection...or your grease idea would work just fine, I'm sure Under The Sea (cue Little Mermaid music), they could find something that would work. And I thought I mentioned up there somewhere that they have a single lung-like organ that allows them to breathe air, albeit with less-than-perfect comfort. .... .... .... .... .... .... ....  i'm scared now. I am really scared now. Do you work for the government, CELS? 'Cause you're reading my mind. T2, 3+ was EXACTLY what I had written for them in the army rules, though I gave them the caveat of counting as T3 for insta-kill purposes, being killed outright by bolters is just wrong. And yes, we probably will discuss this later, perhaps once this mess is finished. |
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Post by Destecado on May 20, 2004 10:16:45 GMT -5
Cartilage
Ossification (hardening) of the cartilage may occure as the Atlanteans develope. Newly hatched Atlanteans would have soft liquidy bodies with soft cartalidge. As they grow older, the cartilage would begin to harden as their outer skin also begins to thicken. If you've seen the developement of frogs or other amphibinas, you'll see that they go through several stages before reaching their final form. In human also the skull bone does not completely harden till well into the childs first year.
I don't think that the cartilage would allow the Atlanteans to walk upright, even if you were to use a denser form of cartilage. They may be able to apprximate a wabbly legged gait, but cartilage lacks the full rigidity of bone that would allow them to stand upright.
You could perhaps play with the gravity of the world. A lower gravity than earth normal might allow them to stand upright with a semi-rigid cartilage skeleton, but then you run the problem of opperating on worlds with earth normal or higher gravity.
If you go with the low gravity then the suits you are making are more to allow them to move in higher gravity as well as to maintain moisture on the skin.
I have an interesting idea for the suits. What if they have a basic rigid structure that cushions their frams and provides mechanical assistance for moving above the sea, but the remainder is made of a liquid metal or plastic.
As the liquid flows, the outer shell of it hardens on contact with air. The rest remains in a liquid state. If the armor is hit, it will spray some liquid, which will begin to harden on contact with air, thus sealing any leaks.
The liquid is a hyper oxygenated mixture that acts as a shock absorber as well as regulates the temperature and moisture of the Atlanteans skin. Maybe instead of hardening with air, which would do little to help in an airless enviroment, the armor generates some field that increases the surface tension of the liquid, thus giving it a harded outer shell.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 20, 2004 15:27:58 GMT -5
Ossification (hardening) of the cartilage may occure as the Atlanteans develope. Newly hatched Atlanteans would have soft liquidy bodies with soft cartalidge. As they grow older, the cartilage would begin to harden as their outer skin also begins to thicken. If you've seen the developement of frogs or other amphibinas, you'll see that they go through several stages before reaching their final form. In human also the skull bone does not completely harden till well into the childs first year. Sure. Didn't really think much on their life cycle. It looks like they're going to be egg-layers as well, much as I dislike the idea (however, it makes them unique). That's what I had envisioned, a dense form of cartilage. The wobbly gait would also go along with poor balance, since they have no big toe at the moment. However, that now produces the problem of why they have fingers but no toes...... Possibly, I'd have to think. Somehow, I really like this. I didn't put much thought into the nature of the suits yet, so this as good an idea as any. Thanks! |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 22, 2004 21:42:16 GMT -5
Okay, so in recap of the discussion so far: Bone Structure is now a form of very dense cartilage. This gives them the body strength to approximate a wobbly gait above water, compounded by their lack of a big toe. Also, when an Atlantean reaches a certain, great age, the cartilage begins to break down and they are restricted to the water for the remainder of their days. "Feet": Their feet have no toes, but are instead large and flat like oar heads. This allows them to swim much more efficiently, but gives them very poor balance. Thus, they have rather limited above-water locomotion when not assisted by a suit. Suits: Still up in the air here on the exact nature of the suits. I really like Destacado's suggestion of a liquid-substance suit with a solid framework, that artificially increases the surface tension to the point where it can resist solid objects or projectiles. Water Draining: At this point, the great water shift is caused by a combination of orbital eccentricity and gravitational forces of other solar bodies. So far, the only point of contention that I could see coming would be the fact that they have fingers, but no toes. I am tempted to gloss over this, since I don't like the solution of tentacle-clumps for hands, and pincers would not be dexterious enough. Unless someone can propose another idea, or I can get the OK from TPTBotASP for limited physiological weirdness. Anything I miss, or anything that just hasn't been brought up yet?  |
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Post by CELS on May 31, 2004 9:34:15 GMT -5
Hm, I think you may have misunderstood me when I suggested oars like sea turtles. Or just disregarded my advice I don't see why they would have anything like legs with oar-feet. I say replace their legs with oars. Actually, I don't see why they would have multiple legs/oars either. Land creatures have them because it lets them move faster on land. Sea turtles have them because they come from land creatures. So why would the Atlanteans have multiple legs/oars? |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 31, 2004 10:42:29 GMT -5
They have two legs because they are to a point land creatures as well as water creatures, I'm considering making the homeworld mostly shallow/medium-depth water, to give them a reason for legs. And I don't want mermaids/mermen. I went for oar-feet because it would kill the imagery DEAD DEAD DEAD if they merely had turtle-flippers for legs, since it would make them shorter than Squats.  I know it's not completely realistic for evolving, but I don't know what to do otherwise. |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jun 4, 2004 8:17:41 GMT -5
Let's review, shall we.
The only things left to wrangle so far are:
A) Their link to the Old Ones, which is currently very minor. Can wait till final edit, since it seems to be only Kage against any relation to OO (just kidding, Kage, don't hurt me ;D)
B) Why they have legs/feet. I’m going to hold this off until the final review, as there appears to be no easy solution without drastically altering their imagery. Perhaps a nice, long break from thinking about it....
C) The exact nature of the “tidal drain” phenomenon. This is a rather minor point, as the phenomenon itself has been accepted. It just needs to be ironed out exactly how...
Likewise, this can wait until final edit, there's not much dissent on this.
Anyways, on to Part 4, covering the basics of their culture, law, and government. Give everybody something new to chew over.....
Unfortunately, it's cut in two. No biggie.Atlantean Culture and Government Atlantean culture is generally divided into several parts: The life of civilians, and those in the military. Civilian life is rarely a troublesome existence. Most civilians lead a peaceful life, with few things to worry about besides the crops harvesting or other aspects of their jobs. Atlantean society is centered around a clan unit. In rural areas and colonies, a clan will consist of several extended families living in a small village. Each clan is typically entrusted with a certain patch of sea area which they keep clean of pollution and free of dangerous predators. In the more advanced urban communities and those living in the cities, the clan is of less importance, though still significant. A city clan will be made up of all the Atlanteans living in a single neighborhood or portion of the city, which still often includes numerous members of a family. Clans are the base unit of the social society, eclipsing even families (for they are in effect a very large family), which is one root of a common Atlantean battle cry, “For Clan, For Honor, and For Destiny!” Military life also contains its clans, though clans there consist of the soldiers grouped within a division or company. This may sometimes lead to membership in several clans for those who belong to the military. Multiple clanship can also occur in civilian life, when on rare occasions honorary clan membership is given as a great honor. A typical civilian’s day starts with a tribute to two Primary Faces of Moranon (see below), as well as the particular lesser Faces that they prefer. After, they consume the small morning meal and prepare for the day. From then till mid-day is filled with the daily activities of life. At mid-day, they break for another meal of similar size. They then return to work, stopping in the mid-afternoon for a prayer session then continuing until the end of surface-light (sunset) when the water temperature typically drops and they return to their dwelling for the final meal of the day, much larger than the first two. Latemeal consists of two phases. First comes the lighter courses. They do not eat soup (for obvious reasons ) but they do consume a variety of dishes including salads made from sea plants and flavorings, and different types of small, snail-like shellfish. The meal is broken up by a short period for digestion, when they will typically either discuss their day or meditate. When this is over, the second course begins, consisting of various fish and sea vegetables. Some Atlanteans prefer off-world foods, though this is generally restricted to the more affluent ones who can afford the import fees. When the latemeal is concluded, another prayer session follows, paying final respects to the Faces before sleep. Members of the military follow a much different routine, with far less time for relaxation. Soldiers who are in an active campaign have no defined schedule, eating and sleeping when they can grab a moment, and do most of their praying in a crouch while projectiles whiz overhead. Troopers who are in reserve or not on duty find a middle ground, nowhere near as hectic as active combat nor as simple as civilian life. One-third of the year is true off-duty, when they can live with their family or do other civilian activities. The rest is spent in the base they are assigned to, living and training with their squadmates. They rise very early in the day, and gather in a large hall for a mass prayer session to the two Primary Faces as well as the Face of War, the soldier’s patron Face. A short breakfast follows, and the time from then to the midday prayers are spent in hard training depending on their specialization. After the midday worship, the period until latemeal is consumed with tactical and strategic lessons, lectures and demonstrations the central focus. Their latemeal is much more condensed than the civilian equivalent, with no break in the middle and food being only nutrient-rich processed foods. Fresh meals are saved for special occasions. A final group prayer comes after, and the day ends with not nearly enough precious hours of sleep till the rising bell and the start of the next day. ReligionAtlantean religion centers around their god, Moranon, and his five Faces, or aspects. Each had a specific personality and governs a certain area of life. They consist of the following: Sala’Moranon (sah-lah-more-a-non): A Primary face, the Face of light and Life. Commands the positive forces of the universe, including the eventual renewal of all. Sulu’Moranon (sue-loo-more-a-non): The second Primary face, the Face of Death and Darkness. Counterpart to and rival of Sala’Moranon. The master of entropy and destruction, but also responsible for the elimination of outdated things to make room for the new and better, the upswing of the great cycle. Moranon’irali (more-a-non-er-alley): A secondary face, the Face of War. Worshipped by soldiers and warriors. It is believed to bring luck to them on the battlefield and to smite down their enemies. Moranon’yere (more-a-non-ee-air): Another secondary face, the Face of Peace. The counterpart to Moranon’irali, though they are not rivals and each takes their turn in prominence. It is worshipped by craftsmen, merchants, government officials, and diplomats, all of which need calm waters in which to conduct their business. Xa’Moranon’az (Za-more-a-non-az): The final Face, also a secondary face, the Face of Growth. Growth is the one force in the universe that will remain regardless of interference, and as such this Face has no counterpart, though Sulu’Moranon will occasionally try to cause problems. It is worshipped primarily by traders, builders, and farmers, though all Atlanteans pay a degree of worship. In the very rare cases that an Atlantean is influenced by Chaos, it is usually one devoted to the Face of Growth and will be without their realization as they will have been tricked by Tzeentch masquerading as Xa’Moranon’Az. All Atlanteans give daily homage to the two Primary faces, with secondary faces given regular observance depending on occupation. Individual clans often pray to ancestor spirits, typically wise and respected heroes from the clan’s past that supposedly stick around to watch over their descendants, but this is minor. Worship takes the form of small shrines or statuettes dedicated to each Face, with sacrifices of food and valuables given on festival days.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Jun 4, 2004 8:17:56 GMT -5
Government
In Atlantean society, governmental power is set up in a series of layers. At the lowest rank is the Tidemaster of each clan. The Tidemaster is chosen from among the ranks of the clan, often a very wise, respected, and/or powerful member. They will make the decisions that affect the clan or village as a whole, but always keep the benefit of their clansmen in mind. Anyone that attempted to usurp power would be quickly driven out of office, and at risk of losing their life as well. Tidemasters are almost always chosen for life, though they may retire early to enjoy living in peace. In urban areas, a Tidemaster will instead be entrusted with the maintenance of a small portion of the city.
At the regional level are the Currentmasters. They are chosen by a council of all the Tidemasters that would be under their jurisdiction, and hold office for a set term that varies depending on the size of the area they have sway over. Currentmasters in a city will oversee larger areas, each managing several Tidemasters. For example, a large city may have one Currentmaster overlooking the residental sector, one to run the industrial areas, and another to manage commercial areas or farming areas, with very large cities having plurals of all the above. Like all Atlantean leaders, Currentmasters are careful not to abuse their power, and often defer to the Tidemasters under them in lesser matters.
The next major link in the chain of government is the Seamasters. Seamasters watch over large areas, encompassing multiple Currentmasters and their territory, or may be the head of a large city’s government and the area surrounding it. In a city, the Seamaster would be in charge of things that involve the city as a whole, such as transportation, crop harvesting, and business. A Seamaster is elected in a general election by all Atlanteans in the region/city, and holds their office for one entire Great Tidal Cycle, at which point they must step down. In some cases, a Seamaster may be in charge of an entire colony (the smallest ones, at least).
At the top of the totem pole (so to speak) are the great Oceanmasters. They are the most powerful and respected of all Atlanteans, making decisions that affect entire planets. The Council of Five, the five greatest Oceanmasters, rule over the entire far-sprung Atlantean spread of planets from the homeworld. Individual planets are then assigned their own Oceanmasters, or systems in case of multiple small colonies in one system. Oceanmasters rule for life or until they step down, but are incredibly careful due to the immense power they wield.
Due to the fragmentary nature of the power, it would appear that Atlantean government borders on anarchy. But that is far from the truth, for the system flows very well. Leaders at the local level make decisions that affect those around them, but always strive to cooperate with neighboring leaders and will obey the dictates of their Currentmaster/Seamaster/Oceanmaster in matters of importance. This is the primary cause for corruption being such a hideous crime, for trust in the other levels of government is essential to keep the system working. The higher echelons trust the olwer ones to manage their affairs well, and in turn the lower levels trust those in positions of higher authority to not intervene unless necessary. Any abuse of this system could lead to a breakdown of trust, and eventual collapse of society. Note that this does not mean Atlantean government is free of politics, not at all. Intrigue is a traditional part of the Council’s rule, with two seats always being filled by those of the Silent Eyes idealism, two being taken by those of the Fist of Iron philosophy, and the fifth seat left for one of neither preference, typically one of the minor and more moderate groups. This fifth Councilmember is consistently the target of attempted cajoling by one of the two major factions, stopping just short of outright bribes or blackmailing (both cardinal crimes in Atlantean society).
Laws and Crimes
The Atlanteans have a loose set of laws, but are still bound by a strict moral code. Universal crimes like theft and murder are likewise punished by the Atlanteans, along with many other things. Injuring another without rightful cause is illegal, as is blackmail or bribery (the latter only useful if you could find one low enough to take it). Violating another’s privacy is unforgivable. Most crimes are not committed due to the Atlantean code, which requires honor and integrity among all to uphold the balance against those who would do otherwise. But most Atlanteans are kept in check by their fear of the Judgement, the Atlantean belief of the afterlife. At the Judgement, a soul is measured before Moranon for its positive or negative impact on the galaxy as a whole, as well as its individual conduct in life. Those deemed worthy will ascend to paradise, while those who spent their lives in evil are doomed to the Atlantean equivalent of H**l. In the cases that one commits a crime, for there are always those desperate enough or bad enough to commit such crimes without care for the consequences, both spiritual and corporeal, a tribunal will be set up. A council of judges is formed, as impartial as can be. Evidence both for and against the accused is presented, an Atlantean with interest in law acting as what would translate into “devil’s advocate”, but is really the defendant’s lawyer. Despite this apparent bias against the accused, the tribunals are almost always fair and a person only convicted if there is overwhelming proof that the crime was done by them. Sentencing is a mutual agreement by the judges, varying according to the crime. Some, like minor theft or vandalism, may be punished by a fine, a period of forced labor, or imprisonment. More serious crimes can result in long imprisonment, exile, or in the most brutal of cases, forced severing from the greater Atlantean mind. This can be done by a group of Wave-seers trained in the hateful deed, who erect psychic barriers that block the punished away from the group consciousness. This is tantamount to a death sentence, for many will go mad at the loss of their link to their race, and most others will be set upon by Warp-demons who eagerly pounce on this exposed meal, no longer untouchable.
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I know it's not completely realistic for evolving, but I don't know what to do otherwise.