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Post by Kage2020 on May 9, 2004 9:20:06 GMT -5
And remind me again what this 'balance' that they're trying to achieve is? Sorry, I've forgotten in the time since I read them in detail and, instead of searching through the previous thread (or even reading up! ), just thought that I would ask. Kage
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Post by CELS on May 9, 2004 9:52:33 GMT -5
From what I remember, they don't want to see the humans wipe out everyone else and take the universe as their own, but don't want to see the C'tan do it, or Tyranids either. They want a galaxy in balance...
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 9, 2004 10:11:31 GMT -5
Aye, CELS got it just about right. I know this still leaves some hazy spots, but....
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Post by Kage2020 on May 9, 2004 13:10:13 GMT -5
Oooh... I have only a hazy memory of that. With that said, hopefully the Atlanteans aren't going to come into conflict with the eldar of Tir'asur. I don't think that they would like the consequences of that... Kage
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Post by CELS on May 9, 2004 13:23:57 GMT -5
I don't know why exactly they want a balance though...
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 9, 2004 13:33:51 GMT -5
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 14, 2004 19:42:08 GMT -5
All righty then, seeing as how the only real point of contention left is their (much reduced) link to the Old Ones, I'll go ahead and post Part 2, to give us all some new meat to chew over.
Planetary Structure/Physiology
The Atlanteans originated on a water world somewhere in the galaxy. The exact location has been zealously protected by its inhabitants, as concealment from those who would destroy it. It is the center of their culture, and their society, and if it were to be lost, the race as a whole would crumble. Thus, it is essential that it remain hidden.
The planet itself is not terribly remarkable. It is nearly covered in water, approaching somewhere to a 96% water area. The depths vary from only a few hundred feet, where species of plants and fish can be found, to trenches many miles below the surface, lightless and imposing. Atlantean cities are built on the seafloor, stretching over great distances. What makes their world unusual is its periodic great tides. As with any water body, it had tides large and small, from both the gravity exerted by its two moons, and the large planets closer in to the sun. But every 87 years, the sun, its larger moon, and the larger planets line up in such an arrangement that the world is under the influence of all their gravitational fields at once. This massive pull creates, effectively, one massive tide that literally drains the water from an entire half of the planet, the half currently away from the sun. The planet still rotates, bringing the seafloor in and out of the water-covered area, but never for very long. The combined gravity effect lasts for approximately five years, at which point the various celestial bodies responsible drift far enough apart that they no longer combine their gravity, and the water flows back to its place. In millennia past, the primitive Atlanteans needed a way to protect themselves from the hot air which would dry out their skin and kill them in a very short time. So, they developed the ability to enter a deep sleep-like state similar to hibernation, where their body functions drop to near nothing, and they require no food. They all dig deep into the ground or mud, and bury themselves for protection. They then enter their hibernation state until the waters have flooded back to where they belong.
As they became more advanced, the Atlanteans began to find ways to shield themselves, to reduce the time they needed to hibernate. The first of these innovations was the skin-suit, a form of wet suit that is completely sealed and cooled, with its own water supply. This later evolved into the combat form it has today, with layers of reinforced armor and an extractor that synthesizes oxygen from the air to perpetuate their supply of nutrients. When they developed the ability to travel in space, one of their first projects was the creation of numerous orbital stations that people could flock to for escape of the tidal cycle. But as the population bloomed and colonies began to be established on other worlds, the project was deemed cost-prohibitive. Now only a few stations exist around the world, reserved for the ruling government and military officials, to ensure that the race is not left without central government for years at a time. Most of the ordinary Atlanteans still engage in their hibernation state, those few who choose to travel off-world during the cycle being viewed as rather eccentric. Even the residents of other worlds suffer from sluggishness and reduced activity levels during this same period, proving that millennia of evolution is hard to change.
Atlanteans in body are quite unusual, to account for their unique environment. They are bipedal with a pair of arms, vaguely humanoid in their body structure. But here the similarities end and the differences begin, for the Atlanteans are more than just overgrown frogs. They bear a bizarre bone structure akin to that of some reptilian organisms of ancient Terra. Their arms and neck, and legs to a lesser extent, are not framed on a set of long bones like most races. Instead, they contain long chains of very small bones tied together with thick, strong muscles. This gives them astounding flexibility, their limbs being literally double (or more)-jointed to the extreme. Many adult Atlanteans are capable of bending over backwards, nearly in half, to avoid a chainsword swing, and a common sight among youngsters still developing their muscles (but still embarrassing) was the sight of one’s own arms tied into knots! Their legs also bear this trait to an extent, though it is minimized with only a few bones for the integrity needed to bear the weight of the body. Their main body is composed of long, curved bones, often interlocking to provide the support for their flexible frame. The neck is long and flexible, like the arms, and an Atlantean with its neck fully extended can literally look down upon a Space Marine. But this is rather uncomfortable for the Atlantean in question, as this puts strain on the neck muscles, so they generally walk with their neck bones folded slightly. This relieves any strain from holding up such a long neck, but does give the rather odd appearance to other races as having an accordion where their throat would be.
They breathe mainly through a set of gills, but also have a single lung-like structure for breathing above-water if required. This was evolved as a protective mechanism for those Atlanteans in primitive times who might have been surprised by a sudden loss of water, or be trapped somewhere during the tidal cycle. The lung allowed them to survive, albeit very uncomfortably with their skin beginning to dry out, until water could be found and they could submerge/bury themselves. The skin itself is elastic and rubbery, designed to retain as much water as possible for as long as possible. The skin color is generally a grayish tone, though it can range from a blue hue of certain planets to the pale whitish of arctic, frozen worlds, to the almost black of those planets whose seafloor is far into the inky darkness of the deep. Atlanteans live for a long time, far more than that of humans. Though they are nowhere near the longitivity of the Eldar, they are still capable of living for several hundred human years.
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Post by zholud on May 15, 2004 5:48:39 GMT -5
Hi, here comes an official rainer on one’s parade! Do not consider my critic as insult, but I just cannot stay away from the discussion I’ve read old stuff, but not the whole threads and thus I may point on facts that were already pointed before. Of course, I appreciate all effort you put in creation of the race. Here come nitpicks: So, the moment, whether they have it in Anargo sector or not. Of course, Imperium does not know this, but we, the gods of the sector should know. Thus minimal depth is around a hundred feet? From what I remember, this is close to the limit for human divers w/o equipment. If the reverse is true for Atlanteans, this can die from decompression alone. Moreover such depth bings the following problem: To what extent humanoid? Why, oh boy, they are bipedal – I cannot recall Earth’s sea-dwellers, who used to 100-1,000 feet depths and in the same times walks below water. And if they actually swim, they should be more like dolphins, who lost their legs, instead of using them to walk below the sea. Also, how they move? Are they to some extent akin to frogs and jump around? This is unusual for deep sea creatures, IIRC. The outcome is as follows – they are either crocodiles (no up straight walk, important tail that is main locomotion, etc), or they are salamander – longer legs, but life in shallow waters, just several feet depth. They use legs for walking, etc. This also brings me to another nitpick: Each day there are TWO tidal waves caused by moon, one directly under the moon and another, larger on the opposite side of the planet. This happens because moon moves the centre of the Earth closer, while water remains in place. Moreover, if planet still rotates (how long is their day?) the water remains on pervious average or above average level 40% of the day. Also, how high s the tide? I just cannot believe it can be even a hundred feet, I don’t say about thousands… why Atlanteans do not move in deeper wells, where water remains? This lead me to general idea – throw off tidal idea, use temperature and eccentric orbit to drain them off-water every 87 years. This part I like very much and I guess it should be left in final draft as well. – so, they used to dig in mud, and then instead of developing simple wear that gave partial protection, made from hides, algae, etc, they all of a sudden create hermetical body suit… I don’t buy that. Also, why you then immediately jump to combat suit, not to space suit, travel suit, ultra-deep diving suit?
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 15, 2004 6:18:34 GMT -5
No, the planet is not in the Anargo sector. That is not my intention, and it won't be. The planet is most likely somewhere out in the "wilderness" space, where they can have their central colonies without discovery. They do have a small outpost in Anargo, though. That was just a wild guesstimate. The figures are completely fluid (no pun intended). Decompression could have problems though, or I could take the easy route out and attribute it to the suits. Or perhaps their blood structure/circulatory system/whatever the **** involves decompression is adapted to handle it, or is just built that way. Well, I profess no great knowledge of biology. The upright movement is important though, I'd I'd like to keep it if possible. Okay, that can be changed as well. The tides were brought in to solve an earlier problem, why they have not changed physiologically for hundreds of thousands/millions of years. Thanks!! All that could be included, I just glossed over the more mundane details of their technological development. I guess a deep-diving suit could work, as it would reinforce the idea that they cannot survive at great depths, making them shallow-medium water dwellers.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 17, 2004 18:21:36 GMT -5
Hello......hello....hello.... Kage? CELS? Destacado? Anyone? Honestly, Destacado, I'm surprised you haven't popped in yet to rip this apart with your oodles of real-world critter knowledge.
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Post by CELS on May 17, 2004 19:22:42 GMT -5
As you've no doubt read in the Heart of Sector-thread in the General forum, Glyphstone, I'm in the middle of my exams at the moment, so I haven't had the time to participate as much I'd want lately I'll have a look at what you've posted ASAP. Btw, if you find yourself with a little spare time and are interested in spending that on the project, why don't you have a look in some other forums? It's fair that your main contribution to the project is this race, but we'd still value your opinions in other forums. Maybe you have valuable comments on the Standard Representations of some worlds in Anargo, or our plans for the Heart of the sector, or some of the other aliens, like the Eldar or Orks (Codex Orkicus) ? Helping other people develop their ideas tends to help in motivating them to help you in turn, in a typical "you scratch my back and I scratch your back"-fashion
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 17, 2004 19:28:21 GMT -5
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Post by Kage2020 on May 17, 2004 20:09:55 GMT -5
One thing that springs to mind is the nature of the creation of the concept. You know how you want them and had a rough idea of the world they came from, but otherwise little concrete information. No problem with that since we have to do it with races such as the eldar, tau, etc. But perhaps looking at it in the reverse sense would be interesting? Think about a proto-form and then try to expand it to what they could be like? I for one am intrigued to the "muscle body", though question your logic for including them as bipedal forms with this physiology. For me it doesn't make a great deal of sense. Indeed, the only animal that springs to mind with that physiology also has an adapted and otherwise functional 'normal' (i.e. similar basic morphology, hydroxyapatite-based bones, etc.) skeleton... Why would they retain such bone structure with a bipedal stance...? (Counter-argument... they're not natively bipedal and instead spend most of their time in the water. Counter-counter argument... why did they retain such redundant features in that case...) It's a race of potential, but it would seem that some concepts need to be shifted around a bit... Erm, but it's late and brain hurts from both tiredness and the head cold... Kage
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 17, 2004 20:29:42 GMT -5
aye, I agree. Must go to sleep now, tired. Hopefully Destacado will be able to save me again... THE NEXT MORNING..Hows' this for an idea, though it's got holes. They could be primarily bipedal, but keep the flexible bones, by being mostly bottom walkers. Since there's all those crazy tides moving all over the place, the current direction/strength underwater could change at any moment. This 'might' make swimming a rather ardous task, and most prefer to walk along the seafloor when possible. Since they're turning into shallow-medium water dwellers (a few dozen feet to a couple hundred), this seems feasible.
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Post by Destecado on May 18, 2004 11:42:59 GMT -5
Bi-pedal is probably not going to work. Even bottom feeding creatures that have legs and walk across the bottom of the sea have more than two legs. A crab usually has four and a lobster or horseshoe crab even more. You would need more than two legs under water to anchor yourself in a strong current. Have you ever tried to stand in the ocean as wave come craching up? Being bi-pedal, we are usually knocked over. A creature with at least four legs can balance themselves better in strong surf, preventing the natural tendnecy to be knocked over by the waves. If you wish you can also replace the multiple legs with tenticle. They could have special tenticles that end in several small tenticles that act like fingers. With creatures such as lobsters or crabs you usually only end up with pincers, which really do not allow for manipulation of small objects. As for the developement of bone, there are two routes you can take. The first is the development of an exo-skeleton. This of course poses some problems. The larger an object becomes, the thicker greater the weight, thus the thicker the exo-skeleton must be to support it. This is why you don't see 50 foot ants....despite what 1950s era B horror movies would have you beleive. The other concept is a rigid cartilage structure inside. This is common among such cephalopods as the squid or octopus. The link below will provide more information on cartilage is2.dal.ca/~agcole/zcole/xgrad/colest/intro2.htmYou could say that they have a denser form of cartilage that is closer to bone. This might provide the necerssary "skeletal" structure to allow them to walk on land. Perhaps you could have them only live on land for a certain number of years or up to a certain size. If they grow too big, the cartlidge would not be enough to support them. This would be like an overweight human who has ankle or hip problems, because the human form was designed to support only a certain amount of weight. These elder Atlantans would be consigned to the oceans or perhaps to space. being in free fall would be very similar to being in water. The probably have natural aptitude for space travel. For some reason the pilot from Farscape comes to mind when I think about the elder Atlantans. The armor that you make for them may also be a form of exo-skeleton, to allow them to operate for longer times out of the water. It adds support to their bodies when outside of the water. I also think that I have found an answer to the problem of balance inside or out of the water. While it is true that the Atlantans would probably not have ears, this does not mean that they would be without structures to provide equilibrium. The Statocysts in cephalopods serve much the same function as our inner ear. The following link explains its function in greater detail. www.bio.davidson.edu/people/midorcas/animalphysiology/websites/2003/Muller/function%20and%20development%20of%20statocysts.htm
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