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Post by CELS on Jan 11, 2004 12:59:28 GMT -5
Right! I've read the Liber Mechanicus now, and I must say I've learned quite a bit. Of course, one must take into consideration that it is compiled from a LOT of different sources, and to some extent, added to by the author, so one must read it with a pinch of salt. For example, it states that Mars is the most heavily populated world in the Imperium, with 5 billion citizens, of which 500 billion (I assume he meant to write million) are servitors. Of course, the Worlds of the Imperium article states that forgeworlds have up to 15 billion citizens, and that your most heavily populated hiveworlds have 500 billion citizens... (which I just realized is.... a bloody great lot), and I seem to recall that fully half of the population on Mars are servitors, but... no matter. Here's what I suggest for the Adeptus Mechanicus' military presence in Anargo. The AM in Anargo have several million Tech Guard on Proteus and its two moons (I'm thinking fourty million all told), and then some more on the second forgeworld. The Adeptus Mechanicus would also have Tech Guard garrisons on any research world, and significant AM facilities in the sector. There is also going to be a Knight world in the sector (If someone wants to see more than one, please take the argument to the appropriate subsector), which will have the mysterious Knight fighting machines, which can be called upon to defend the AM territories. There will be at least one Titan Legion in the sector, the Legio Lancea. The new forge world might have a Demi- og Quarto- legion, depending on how old it is. As for the secret force, I seem to have two 'paths', if you will. Of course, I could invent a totally new force that no one has heard of before. "The Adeptus Mechanicus Partisans", a completely secret elite force with the most advanced technology in the Imperium, numbering in the hundreds of millions. But I don't feel very comfortable with that. So I've got two ideas that I could expand on. The first, is the Mechanicum Protectors, which have made a recent appearance in the Horus Heresy CCG. Unfortunately, no one seems to know squat about these guys, and by all likelyhood, they're just a bunch of cool guys that were born in John Blanche's imagination, and then included in the game because they look cool. The second, is the Explorators. Allow me to quote the Liber Mechanicus. "The Explorator are the elite of the Adeptus Mechanicus, sent on only the most important mission, the quest for knowledge." "They travel the galaxy in their unusual black ships, mounting prodigious experimental weapons of destruction, awaiting word of STC rumors or discovery of ancient technology. Then they swoop in to claim what there is for the Adeptus Mechanicus and the Machine God." " It would be foolish to assume that there is fewer than one Explorator ship or small fleet for each Forge World. Accordingly, it can be estimated that the strength of the Explorator forces approximate that of the Adeptus Astartes."
This sounds just like the force I need, and the fact that they aren't completely secret to the rest of the Imperium, makes them more believable to me. It's a lot easier to convince the Adeptus Terra that the mysterious fleets they see travelling around are in fact part of the Explorator research and explorer ships, instead of trying to convince them that they didn't see them at all. Another thing that's interesting with the Explorators, is that they are extremely powerful, yet more vulnerable than Space Marines. These aren't über warriors such as the Adeptus Astartes or Custodes. At least, the majority of the Explorators aren't. Last, but not least, is a force that was previously completely unknown to me. This is the force of the Ordinatus, who are in possession with some of the most powerful and mysterious warmachines in the Imperium. The general idea seems to be that the Ordinatus control something like a hundred or a couple of hundred completely unique and terrifying constructions. From huge borrowing siege machines to epic missile launchers, these machines are completely awesome, and needless to say, I must have one I haven't decided on what kind of unit the Ordinatus of Proteus would have constructed. Any suggestions are welcome. As a guideline, the thing would be absolutely massive, and would have been built for a specific purpose, such as defending the Castellum sector from orks, or defending the Proteus subsector against an invasion millennia ago, or something like that.
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Post by Minister on Jan 11, 2004 13:19:41 GMT -5
"Last, but not least, is a force that was previously completely unknown to me. This is the force of the Ordinatus, who are in possession with some of the most powerful and mysterious warmachines in the Imperium. The general idea seems to be that the Ordinatus control something like a hundred or a couple of hundred completely unique and terrifying constructions. From huge borrowing siege machines to epic missile launchers, these machines are completely awesome, and needless to say, I must have one "
Hmmm... The thing is that they are generaly built for a battle rather than as a pre-emptive measure, so you would have to think up a campaign history.
I've always had a soft spot for the idea behind the Armageddon, though: take a spaceship grade gun and hunt Titans with it!
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Post by CELS on Jan 11, 2004 13:32:39 GMT -5
That's what I was trying to say when I wrote 'specific purpose', but yeah. They are built with a specific battle and specific enemy in mind.
The idea of a bloody great gun is very appealing, I must admit... but it has been done before. I would just like to hear if anyone has another suggestion. Perhaps a defensive weapon.
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Post by Minister on Jan 11, 2004 13:55:32 GMT -5
"The idea of a bloody great gun is very appealing, I must admit... but it has been done before."
That doesn't make it any less impressive to my mind...
Perhaps a stupidly large projectile weapon then? ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 11, 2004 19:50:39 GMT -5
As for the secret force, I seem to have two 'paths', if you will. Of course, I could invent a totally new force that no one has heard of before. "The Adeptus Mechanicus Partisans", a completely secret elite force with the most advanced technology in the Imperium, numbering in the hundreds of millions. But I don't feel very comfortable with that. I think that the 'millions' number is ridiculous, myself. The second, is the Explorators. Allow me to quote the Liber Mechanicus. Not precisely... It would probably best if the 'elite force' paralleled many of the functions/divisions of the adeptus mechanicus but in a vastly reduced number. This sounds just like the force I need, and the fact that they aren't completely secret to the rest of the Imperium, makes them more believable to me. I disagree. An 'public' force would be problematic in extreme, ramming home the point that the adeptus mechanicus are truly a horrifyingly powerful force. It's a lot easier to convince the Adeptus Terra that the mysterious fleets they see travelling around are in fact part of the Explorator research and explorer ships, instead of trying to convince them that they didn't see them at all. These 'fleets' do not move. In fact, 'fleet' is the wrong term. "'Fluff' transparency" is the best way to go in most things and, as such, a 'small' secret force makes more sense than this horrendously and, to me, munchkin force. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 11, 2004 20:54:13 GMT -5
That doesn't make it any less impressive to my mind... Perhaps a stupidly large projectile weapon then? ;D No! That's just lame! Unless, of course, it has multiple barrels, in which case it would be totally cool It's kind of sad though, that when told that the Ordinatus have some of the most unique and legendary weapons in the galaxy, all we can think of are big guns I think that the 'millions' number is ridiculous, myself. Depends on what kind of army we're talking about. Not precisely... It would probably best if the 'elite force' paralleled many of the functions/divisions of the adeptus mechanicus but in a vastly reduced number. Why would this be best? I don't see why it has to be that way, considering the role of the force. I disagree. An 'public' force would be problematic in extreme, ramming home the point that the adeptus mechanicus are truly a horrifyingly powerful force. Not at all. It's the same as with their star ships. Sure, if they told the Adeptus Terra the truth, that they have a formidable fleet of ships, some of which have the same attack capabilties of Imperial Navy ships, and that they even have military capital ships, then they would get in trouble. It's the same with Explorators, but everyone doesn't know just what capabilities they have. They know that they are used for research and exploration, which is the truth, but not the whole truth. Same thing. These 'fleets' do not move. In fact, 'fleet' is the wrong term. "'Fluff' transparency" is the best way to go in most things and, as such, a 'small' secret force makes more sense than this horrendously and, to me, munchkin force. What I have learned, I have learned from the Liber Mechanicus. If someone could confirm or deny the validity of this work, I would be most interested, but at the moment, I'm assuming that this is indeed valid. A few quotes " It would be foolish to assume that there is fewer than one Explorator ship or small fleet for each Forge World." "The work of the Explorators is as much a holy quest as it is a military mission, and so the Explorator forces combine the functions of the Inquisition, the Adepta Sororitas and the Adeptus Astartes within the Cult Mechanicus. They travel the galaxy in their unusual black ships, mounting prodigious experimental weapons of destruction, awaiting word of STC rumors or discovery of ancient technology." This is my source. Like I said, you are welcome to comment on its validity. Still, I guess I could go down the other path, and expand on the concept of Mechanicum Protectors, who seemed to be an elite force in the Horus Heresy. Perhaps they live on, in secrecy.
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Post by Minister on Jan 12, 2004 7:50:46 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, the Nexus Hive is mostly fan fiction, but from a quick browse this seems to be a reasonable extrapolation.
Myself I'm not a great fan of the Mechanicus having a completley secret Uber-tech army. I would pose the following:
1. Each Magos would have a (relativley) small force at his own disposal, of the kind of numbers found in a 40K game (tens to low hundreds). This force would be oficialy acnowleged as part of his personal staff, but not all of the operations it takes part in would have oficial sanction. If they had their own warp transport it would be small and of the kind purchacable by (wealthy) civiliand.
2. Covert Strike Teams (description, not a title), hiding in the paperwork as a recon force for the Skitarri legions which is often attatched to other operations. Small, self-suficient military units loyal to the Forge World of origin, they would be avble to take part in various operations without Imperial sanction on the grounds that they are "supporting Imperial Security" or "Conducting reconasance based on rumours of STC data".
3. Explorer forces would be known to the Imperium, as would their military components. However, the majority of the force would be distinctly limited vessels restricted to doing asctual research, and without the capacity to transport any military force of real import (although they could be used to ferry around a few squads of the above Covert Strike Teams). The ones of interest here would be the Armed Research Vessels, with a regiment of Skitarii in their bellies and guns the equal of many capital ships.
All of these forces obey the letter of the rules and even the spirit of the rules on Imperial organisations maintaining independant military forces without depriving the Mechanicus of a small force for operations that it would rather the other Imperial organisations not know about.
As far as equipment is concerned, all these forces would be well equiped, but not to a rediculous level. Somewhere between the better equiped Imperial Guard regiments and the Space Marines, most being about Storm Trooper level.
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Post by CELS on Jan 12, 2004 13:19:08 GMT -5
If I recall correctly, the Nexus Hive is mostly fan fiction, but from a quick browse this seems to be a reasonable extrapolation. Aye, Nexus Hive is fan fiction and RPG, it seems. The Liber Mechanicus is not a part of the Nexus Hive project though, and is based on the official fluff from RT to 3rd Ed. 1. Each Magos would have a (relativley) small force at his own disposal, of the kind of numbers found in a 40K game (tens to low hundreds). This force would be oficialy acnowleged as part of his personal staff, but not all of the operations it takes part in would have oficial sanction. If they had their own warp transport it would be small and of the kind purchacable by (wealthy) civiliand. Yeah, this is what I suggested for the Tech Guard. 2. Covert Strike Teams (description, not a title), hiding in the paperwork as a recon force for the Skitarri legions which is often attatched to other operations. Small, self-suficient military units loyal to the Forge World of origin, they would be avble to take part in various operations without Imperial sanction on the grounds that they are "supporting Imperial Security" or "Conducting reconasance based on rumours of STC data". And what purpose would these teams have, that differs from that of Tech Guard and Explorators? 3. Explorer forces would be known to the Imperium, as would their military components. However, the majority of the force would be distinctly limited vessels restricted to doing asctual research, and without the capacity to transport any military force of real import (although they could be used to ferry around a few squads of the above Covert Strike Teams). The ones of interest here would be the Armed Research Vessels, with a regiment of Skitarii in their bellies and guns the equal of many capital ships. Explorators have significant military abilities themselves, if we're to believe the Liber Mechanicus, and work independently from the Tech Guard. The Tech Guard seem to specialize in defense, whilst the Explorators are more offensive, and specialise in scenarios such as aquiring technology (STC...) by force. Granted, the Tech Guard in Soul Drinker were almost used in an offensive operation, but bear in mind that these were assigned to Magos Khorbotov (or whatever his name was). All of these forces obey the letter of the rules and even the spirit of the rules on Imperial organisations maintaining independant military forces without depriving the Mechanicus of a small force for operations that it would rather the other Imperial organisations not know about. I don't quite understand how the AM would be able to have such forces as described above, whilst obeying the letter of the rules, and much less the spirit. As far as equipment is concerned, all these forces would be well equiped, but not to a rediculous level. Somewhere between the better equiped Imperial Guard regiments and the Space Marines, most being about Storm Trooper level. I agree. I will not have a legion of soldiers with personal force-fields, plasma guns, power armour and jetpacks. Looking at the Mechanicum Protectors from the Horus Heresy CCG, these guys seem to all have very high tech equipment, but be very specialized. So you'll have some with close combat enhancements, some with incredible guns, and some with a lot of scanners and other scouting equipment. I guess the whole point behind this force that we're contemplating, is that the Adeptus Mechanicus might want an elite taskforce. Since offensive operations are left to the Imperial Guard, Navy and Astartes, the AM would want something more subtle than legions of Tech Guard and titans. Tech Guard are only supposed to be used for defense, the Titans and Ordinatus are used for the good of the Imperium, and the Explorators are used to explore new areas and retrieve technology such as STC from potentially hostile territories. Hmm... to be honest, I don't see why the AM needs a force that can't be part of the Explorators. Even if they have to be kept secret, it still makes sense to make them a part of the Explorators, since it seems to me that they'll have the same purpose anyway. They're an elite force, and they'll be used to acquire new technology, artifacts and other objects of interest. They will not be used to wage war. Right? Well, that description is the same as for Explorators.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 12, 2004 21:13:07 GMT -5
...Myself I'm not a great fan of the Mechanicus having a completley secret Uber-tech army.... I'm guessing I'm not seeling it correctly. Remember that it is not something that would show up in the wargame, nor is it present in the same extent as the other 'armies'. I'm sorry... I just don't see the adeptus mechanicus working completely above-the-board with the Imperium as, seemingly, everyone else. So all I'm saying is that the Imperium does not know of these or at least does not know of them in their truest face. The suggestions as I can see are more in keeping with the wargame than extrapolating the 'fluff'... As far as equipment is concerned, all these forces would be well equiped, but not to a rediculous level. Somewhere between the better equiped Imperial Guard regiments and the Space Marines, most being about Storm Trooper level. Again, wargame logic here. The 'fluff' expands from the constrained and preconceived notions of the wargame. They're an elite force, and they'll be used to acquire new technology, artifacts and other objects of interest. They will not be used to wage war. Right? Well, that description is the same as for Explorators. Again, the point is missed. The Explorators are the 'face' of this force. No, they're not going to be used to wage wars, but such a concept is predicated upon the fact that I'm thinking about an army for the wargame. This is not the case. They are entirely a construct in the 'fluff' (i.e. the background) which are used to show that the adeptus mechanicus are a powerful and individual "part" of the Imperium. That they are not entirely bound by such limited concepts as the adepta sororitas and their unique relationship with the adeptus mechanicus. Again, the wargame does not constain the 'fluff', else there is no point to the project. Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 13, 2004 19:14:50 GMT -5
Again, the point is missed. The Explorators are the 'face' of this force. No, they're not going to be used to wage wars, but such a concept is predicated upon the fact that I'm thinking about an army for the wargame. This is not the case. I assure you, I'm not thinking about wargaming possibilities at all! I'm just thinking what role this army would have to the Adeptus Mechanicus in the 40k universe. They are entirely a construct in the 'fluff' (i.e. the background) which are used to show that the adeptus mechanicus are a powerful and individual "part" of the Imperium. That they are not entirely bound by such limited concepts as the adepta sororitas and their unique relationship with the adeptus mechanicus. Again, the wargame does not constain the 'fluff', else there is no point to the project. I feel that it is you that is missing the point. I'm just asking you why you feel the Adeptus Mechanicus would need this force, these elite fighters? There's no reason for them to be used for defense, because then there's no point in keeping them secret, and you might as well make them an elite division of the Tech Guard. You would not be needing them to protect individual members of the priesthood either, since they are accompanied by their own company or regiment of Tech Guard. And as for looking for STC technology and investigating alien technology, that's what the Explorators are doing, and there's really no need to keep that a secret either. It is not wargame logic to demand a purpose for every fighting force. The Deathwatch fight aliens, the Grey Knights fight daemons and the Custodes defend the Emperor. Everyone has a specific purpose. I don't quite see the Adeptus Mechanicus creating such an elite, secret army, just because they feel like being rebellious.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 14, 2004 4:27:32 GMT -5
Why should the adeptus mechanicus be any less paranoid than any other organisation of the Imperium? Specific need is often outweighed by generalised paranoia... It ties in with a wider concept of paranoia between the organisations of the Imperium, not the "happy-go-lucky" attitude that seems to persist in many interpretations. A darker, more political and paranoid edge to the Imperium. An adeptus mechanicus that doesn't reveal all that it knows, but makes use of all that it knows. Sorry... I just tend to find that more interesting than an adeptus mechanicus - or any force - that is completely "above board" about what it has in its arsenal. While it has been mentioned that at no point is the argument being constrained by the wargame - and my apologies if you thought that this was a slight; it was merely an observation based on what I had seen - unlike that wargame, an 'enemy' does not publish all that it has. (The limitations of this is that the Imperium self-evidently does not advertise the presence of the officio assassinorium, the Grey Knights, etc., yet they still are present as army lists.) Ah well... perhaps an adetus mechanicus that is not a dedicated servant of the Imperium and which plans for the future is too radical. Kage
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Post by malika on Jan 14, 2004 5:29:52 GMT -5
well actually the adeptus mechanicus is an allied movement..I mean they arent really a part of the imperium, they are allied to the imperium...just check the fluff, somewhere it said treaties were signed again between earth and mars after the heresy, so mars is actually part on a non imperium human empire, but they work together with the imperium
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Post by CELS on Jan 14, 2004 21:11:58 GMT -5
Kage, I'm not against the idea of a secret AM military force. I agree that paranoia is very common amongst Imperial organisations, as is a hunger for power and independence (to a varying degree, of course).
My point is just that if the AM wanted a secret army, just in case, then it would make more sense to me to make them something like elite Tech Guard. If the shit hit the fan, the AM would want millions extra soldiers, not just a handful of elite soldiers on each forgeworld.
If you were to suggest that the AM would keep such a small, elite force for the purposes of secret attacks against the Imperium, or to take on the role of the Inquisition on AM territory, or to take on the role of the Explorators in scenarios where the Imperium does not want the AM to interfere, THEN I would understand. They would have a purpose, and it would make sense to keep them small and elite. If they're just kept by the AM 'just in case', it doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 14, 2004 21:39:51 GMT -5
If they're just kept by the AM 'just in case', it doesn't make sense to me. It's a threshold phenomenon, for me. Keeping a huge force puts it in the realm of the dubious. The 'secret' and 'small' force was all that I was after... Yes it makes sense to hide the reality behind the cover-story, but still... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 20, 2004 19:01:25 GMT -5
I have an idea for the Ordinatus of the Anargo sector, and I'll give you a hint; I saw Master & Commander the other day. Awesome movie.
Obviously, the AM Ordinatus unit will have to be some kind of naval vessel. I'm thinking big guns, lots of armour, fast, and capable of transporting troops. I have not decided if it would be coolest to make it a surface vessel or a submarine. Either way, it's going to be big and dangerous.
There are so few reports of naval warfare in 40k. The only thing I can think of, really, are the tankers on Armageddon that the orks converted into troop transports. There were supposedly some submarines there too.
Anyway, if there is really so little naval warfare going on in 40k, imagine the tremendous advantage of having such a vessel! The orks march through Imperial territories, and suddenly an Imperial naval battleship moves up the river behind them. They now have human forces attacking from two fronts, supported by heavy artillery fire. A damn shame.
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