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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 4, 2004 13:24:08 GMT -5
Erm, since I'm not sure of the shape it would be hard for me to make a volume calculation. Anyone up for that? Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 4, 2004 13:33:20 GMT -5
The shape is something like thisI have no idea about the length, height or size. No artwork seems to give any indication...
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2004 13:49:10 GMT -5
Is the flagship a non-Mars model?
If not, cruisers are 3 X 1 X 0.5 km, and that profile is to scale.
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Post by CELS on Jan 4, 2004 14:06:06 GMT -5
I'm not questioning the truth of this information or anything, but could you reveal your source? And just as a note to anyone who'll be using this information, keep in mind that the cruiser has 'wings', so the body of the cruiser would probably be something like 200-250 meters broad
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 4, 2004 14:51:51 GMT -5
Actually, I thought I got that from you, CELS It's been mentioned somewhere in this forum, anyway.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 4, 2004 14:59:26 GMT -5
You'll have to forgive me... I come from the days when the Gothic was the standard line battlecruiser and that was 1km in length. Kage
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Post by Minister on Jan 4, 2004 17:53:50 GMT -5
We do have some factoids for the Lunar and it's fellow cruisers (these are the ones about 3km). The battleships are about 5km. For a cruiser (without prow ram): Length: 3,214m Beam: 1,402m Height (excluding comms array): 1,383 these are in rough proportion, by the way. For this I took a shot-in-the-dark guesstimate of Mass (unladen): 474 million tons So, working from a roughly 3km length for the cruiser and assuming the picture posted is to scale, we have a length of about 4.6km without the ram for the Retribution. So, if we can get someone who has the model to give: length of hull (end of drives to tip of prow, with and without ram if possible) width with "wings" width without "wings" height of central hull bit (not bridge, statue etc) overall heigt from lowest to highest A decent picture is to be found at: www.siegetower.com/bfgothic/images/hamroj.jpg although I belive that it has been converted a bit.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 5, 2004 8:49:34 GMT -5
<sniff> And if someone could post the length of the Gothic I would greatly appreciate it. <sigh> It seems that GW's proclivity for the 'large', well, everything is manifest as much in their ships as their handweapons (I'm reminded of the ridiculous proportions attributed to swords, pistols, etc.). The one good thing about this is that it, for me, confirms my approach to the three fleets. The size of the things are so patently ludicrous that they are more than just ships: they are status symbols of the Imperium itself. This means that there can, and will, be a huge difference between an 'Imperial' ship (of the Military and Merchant fleets) and those of the Civil. <contented sigh> So, back to the topic on hand... We need that rough volume calculation so that we can progress with later design processes. But what can we do now? Well, let's go through the design sequence step by step. First things to define are easy enough: Tech-Level and Concept. Tech-Level: 10. Concept: ... Each ship is composed of a body and a number of subassemblies (motive, flight and structural). It is the structural subassemby (i.e. turrets or arms) that are more than likely going to be of use. So, how many turrets or related structural subassemblies are present on the ship? Further definition of the nature of structural subassemblies is possible: - Superstructures - Fixed towers or housings.
- Open Mounts - Brackes, pedestals or masts (i.e. the pintle mount of a MG on top of a tank is an open structure).
- Masts - Obviously a structure to which 'sails' are hung. Not appropriate here.
- Pods - Housings attached to pylons, i.e. outriggers or engine pods.
- Turrets - Rotating superstructures.
- Pop Turrets - Retractable tureets.
- Gasbag Envelopes - Suitable for balloons and their ilk. Not really appropriate here.
- Arms - Non-motive limbs. Again, not really appropriate here (unless a feature of docking?).
This is just by means of listing so that we can actually design the beggers. Next on the list is Body Features (including Streamlining, materials, etc.). Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 5, 2004 11:05:18 GMT -5
The ship dimensions are not *that* unrealistic, considering that today we build ships in the region of hundreds of metres, and that in the 41st millennium the scale of society has expanded considerably.
Without the influence of surface-level gravity, and with considerably more dense superstructure, three-kilometre or even thirty-kilometre constructions are feasible.
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Post by CELS on Jan 5, 2004 11:18:00 GMT -5
I agree, AFMetallus. Also, these ships have engines that not only generate a tremendous propulsion in real space, but also warp drives, which I picture as being fairly large. And then there's the guns that need to be pretty big, and have lots of ammunition, the torpedoes, and all the crew, since the Imperium doesn't care much for robots...
Btw, I don't recall giving those numbers for you. Must be Minister or Rich or someone else.
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Post by zholud on Jan 5, 2004 11:54:23 GMT -5
<sigh> It seems that GW's proclivity for the 'large', well, everything is manifest as much in their ships as their handweapons (I'm reminded of the ridiculous proportions attributed to swords, pistols, etc.). Just a little OffT, the size of weapons is caused by minitatures themselves – easier to mold and to paint, esp details. While ships are big because the crews are large (or vice versa ) and because no one else has vessels that large. To ship size, I still estimate it around 2.5 km for average cruiser with all BFG proportions assumed to be real.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 5, 2004 13:36:39 GMT -5
The ship dimensions are not *that* unrealistic, considering that today we build ships in the region of hundreds of metres, and that in the 41st millennium the scale of society has expanded considerably. You will note that I did not say that they were unrealistic and that, indeed, I went on to suggest how I felt that it confirmed a long-standing opinion of mine. The hand weapon sizes are another thing altogether... And, yes, I do know about the possibilities of building in micro-gravity, but that was not in question. The size of the ships is a statement, as I, well, stated above. The sheer size of construction is meant to encompass everything that the Imperium is: monolithic, unstoppable, or whatever. But we do need to agree on approximate ship sizes. And in this I think that zholud has a very relevant point. (Amusingly enough, using simple arithmetic progression, it would appear that if one considers a military 'ship' to be of at least four (arbitrary number) times the cost of civilian ship of the same size, then these 5km long ships are going to cost $90,000,000,000... In fact, that presumes TL9 technologies. We can readily increase that by a hefty chunk to something like 100,000,000,000... ) Now, anyone going to bite the biscuit with reference to superstructures for the flagship? Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 5, 2004 14:07:27 GMT -5
I seem to recall a piece of fluff where some high and mighty Imperial officer or administrator goes to the trouble of explaining how expensive exterminatus would be, or something like that. I don't actually remember much of the piece, except that it included salary, the price of fuel, and many other things.
I don't actually remember where I read this either ;D
Does it ring any bells to anyone though? Might be useful in determining the price of a ship, as well as other economic issues.
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Post by Minister on Jan 5, 2004 15:19:51 GMT -5
PLANETARY BOMBARDMENT Last of all is this piece which Jervis found on the internet, that made me laugh so much I just hadto share it with you. Thanks to Patrick Marstall for this fascinating treatise in reply to someone whothought that planetary bombardment in the 41st Millennium would be a simple matter of knockinga few asteroids out of orbit so that they hit the target planet – rocks, after all, are free…
Rocks are NOT ‘free’, citizen. Firstly, you must manoeuvre the Emperor’s naval vessel within the asteroid belt, almost assuredly sustaining damage to the Emperor’s ship’s paint from micrometeoroids, while expending the Emperor’s fuel. Then the Tech Priests must inspect the rock in question to ascertain its worthiness to do the Emperor’s bidding. Should it pass muster, the Emperor’s Servitors must use the Emperor’s auto-scrapers and melta-cutters to prepare the potential ordinance for movement. Finally, the Tech Priests finished, the Emperor’s officers may begin manoeuvring the Emperor’s warship to abut the asteroid at the prepared face (expending yet more of the Emperor’s fuel), and then begin boosting the stone towards the offensive planet. After a few days of expending a prodigious amount of the Emperor’s fuel to accelerate the asteroid into an orbit more fitting to the Emperor’s desires, the Emperor’s ship may then return to the planet via superluminous warp travel and await the arrival of the stone, still many weeks (or months) away. After twiddling away the Emperor’s time and eating the Emperor’s food in the wasteful pursuit of making sure that the Emperor’s enemies do not launch a deflection mission, they may finally watch the ordinance impact the planet (assuming that the Emperor’s ship does not need to attempt any last-minute course correction upon the rock, using yet more of the Emperor’s fuel). Given a typical (class Bravo-CVII) system, we have the following: Two months, O&M, Titan class warship: 4.2 Million Imperials Two months, rations, crew of same: 0.2 MI Two months, Tech Priest pastor: 1.7 MI Two months, Servitor parish: 0.3 MI Paint, Titan class warship: 2.5 MI Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.9 MI Total: 9.8 MI Contrasted with the following: 5 warheads, magna-melta: 2.5 MI One day, O&M, Titan class warship: 0.3 MI One day, rations, crew of same: 0.0 MI Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.1 MI Total: 2.9 MI Given the same result with under one third of the cost, the Emperor will have saved a massive amount of His most sacred money and almost a full month of time, during which His warship may be bombarding an entirely different planet. The Emperor, through this – His Office of Imperial Outlays – hereby orders you to attend one (1) week of therapeutic accountancy training/penance. Please report to Areicon IV, Imperial City, Administratum Building CXXI, Room 1456, where you are to sit in the BLUE chair. For the Emperor, Bursarius Tenathis, Purser Level XI, Imperial Office of Outlays.
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Post by Minister on Jan 5, 2004 15:24:09 GMT -5
Oh yes, and the Gothic is today a line cruiser with the aproximate dimensions given above:
"For a cruiser (without prow ram): Length: 3,214m Beam: 1,402m Height (excluding comms array): 1,383"
Of course, I may be over-stating slightly on these, but I am confident (having gone over a model cruiser with a ruler and MEASURED the blasted thing) that the proportions are right.
It does strike me that the best way to get a volume is for someone to take a Retribution, a beaker and a measuring cylinder, do a "eureka" shot on it and then scale up from there. Unfortunatley, I don't actualy own one (or any other battleship).
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