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Post by zholud on May 19, 2004 11:22:38 GMT -5
If the frostbringers are a fleet based chapter, and assuming they have the 3 battlebarges, 10 strike cruisers and assorted escorts that is the norm, From what I recall (this can be obsolete info though), they aren’t fleet- based but fleet- heavy Chapter. And their fleet should not be able to withstand Anargo Navy… they are as different as sniper rifle and mortar, at least for me.
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Post by CELS on May 19, 2004 11:45:09 GMT -5
"In a fleet action they would be at a disadvantage in comparison to Imperial Navy vessels, due to their special adaptations for planetary assaults. However it is hard to imagine that the Adeptus Astartes would accept a ship to ship fight on any but the most favourable terms, instead operating against shipping lanes, dock facilities and other vulnerable assets."-From the lectures of Lord Captain Morley of the Fleet Insturum of Alien studiesThat was from WD#235. Of course, I would disagree with the Lord Captain, seeing as how in a game of BFG, my Frost Bringer battlebarge's bombardement cannons reduced two Chaos cruisers to atoms in as many salvoes (Yes, I am aware that wargames and fluff are two seperate things ). And you might argue that the Lord Captain is biased and doesn't know the full potential of a battlebarge. The Imperium is known to underestimate. And no, they're not fleet-based. I wouldn't say that they're especially fleet heavy though. I mean, I don't think they would have a bigger fleet than the Ultramarines. They just have a specialty in boarding actions...
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Post by Lordof on May 20, 2004 20:35:34 GMT -5
So their ships would have a larger capability to launch Boarding Torps than more normal Astartes fleets?
Or they just happen to be good at it?
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Post by CELS on May 20, 2004 20:43:47 GMT -5
I wasn't aware that the Astartes used boarding torpedoes at all.... since their Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges don't have torpedo tubes, I mean... Anyway, I don't think we should rule out that the Frost Bringers have some modified wargear / ships for boarding actions, but IMHO this would be barely worthy of mention. But then, I think we should discuss things like this after the Index Astartes article is finished, and we know more about the chapter. I'm sorry to post-pone discussions like this all the time, but there are major issues that need to be discussed before we can work out the details... Still, IMHO, they just happen to be good at it, for the most part.
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Post by Sikkukkut on May 20, 2004 22:16:38 GMT -5
The Frost Bringers prize any opportunity to fight their targets in space, because being in space, and particularly fighting, killing and dying in space, has spiritual significance for them. Wherever possible they will try to engage an enemy in a space action, and have become experts at the skills and tactics that such operations call for. On the other hand, they dislike using boarding torps and Thunderhawks, preferring to close in with their actual ship and move directly across in a boarding action.
I'm ambivalent about giving them lots of mammoth ships though. As has been mentioned they split off from the Silver Skulls Chapter and started out with a small to nonexistent fleet (the Skulls were on their way to another warzone and weren't really in a position to just hand over a Chapter's worth of ships). Their initial fleet was laid down between the founding of the Chapter and the so-called Massilian Schism; the first ships to be built for them at the Archaios sub shipyards went with them on the Chapter's first crusade into the Cruciatine Sector and would have suffered appropriate attrition, and their priority after that would have been to get enough ships to have as many Marines spaceborne in as short a time as possible.
Another consideration is their preference for actual boarding actions as opposed to carrying themselves to enemy ships in ordnance - that would mean ships small enough and manoeuvrable enough to easily get into position for boarding, which Battle Barges definitely aren't.
These two factors have led me to the idea that the Frost Bringers fleet is based around a much larger than usual number of Strike Cruisers, with relatively small numbers of support vessels and few large ones. If they do have a Battle Barge then it would have been built well after the Chapter's foundation.
Happy to kick this around, though. Who's got thoughts?
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Post by Seamus on May 20, 2004 22:57:49 GMT -5
On the other hand, they dislike using boarding torps and Thunderhawks, preferring to close in with their actual ship and move directly across in a boarding action. dont know about ya'll, but I got a strong image of 7ft Pirates boarding their next victoms ;D Personally, I like this sort of thing, but I must ask you; With such low number of support craft, wouldnt this leave their pods/whatever rather defenceless? or even defended to a very limited degree? vulnerability and all... Space Marines they may be, but not immortal...
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Post by Lordof on May 21, 2004 7:18:36 GMT -5
I still think they would use some sort of pod or boarding platform rather than just jumping across the void(which would be insane in any sort of space combat, any explosion would hurl marines off into space and they would always run the risk of getting squished between the hulls. Marine Pancakes anyone?)
So i think they would use boarding devices of some sort most likely of these being Boarding Torps and Thunderhawks. We can always think up some other more interesting form of these later but i think these are the most likely.
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Post by Skonar on May 21, 2004 7:45:52 GMT -5
I'd just like to point out that, In my opinion, what's described above is extremely non-Marine.
You bring a ship -close- enough to an enemy ship, to let your ship get hit? Possibly -killing- a large multitude of marines without chance to retaliate?...
The reason Thunderhawks are used, are to be able to board enemy ships without endangering half the company. As far as I know, anyway.
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Post by CELS on May 21, 2004 7:51:48 GMT -5
I don't know how much you know about boarding actions, but when a ship, cruiser or escort size, boards another, it doesn't actually go up to the side of it and dock. The ships are never in direct contact, since a small unexpected move could crush the parts of the ship where you have your eagerly waiting boarding parties.
In boarding actions, all ships launch small boarding pods and according to the BFG rulebook, teleport devices (though the fluff insists that these are really rare), so I don't see why the Frost Bringers would have any discrepancies against Thunderhawks.
The FBs and their combat doctrine is something I'd like to discuss ASAP when the IA is up.
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Post by Destecado on May 21, 2004 9:58:11 GMT -5
Pulling up beside another ship and and swinging across to board them, pretty much went out with the age of sail. Even today when the coast guard is boarding a boat to do an inspection, they usually send a small contingent of crew over on a Zodiac or some other type of small water craft.
As others have said, by pulling along side, you make your own ship vulnerable. If the Frost Bringers were known for using this tactic, how long do you think it would take an enemy to rig a ship to explode once the Frost Bringer ships pulled along side or maybe open up with concealed weapons ports.
BTW if you are having the Frost Bringers specialize in space actions you may be hindering them when they go dirt side. The skills necessary for fighting in space differ greatly from those used on a planet. You may wish to consider having a specialized company that handles boarding actions, while leaving the rest as vanilla marines or with their own special rules. This company would be like the Tyranid Fighters (Bug Hunters) of the Ultramarines.
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Post by zholud on May 21, 2004 12:40:14 GMT -5
I would say that showing your side can be much less dangerous if it is made fast. Modern aircraft on 1 mach makes a turn in 3 seconds, and arc is over 10 km wide… try to catch such a ship. Also maybe it has extremely hard rumming prow and it does not go broadside? Also, they are marines… maybe they just jump. If they are used for such jump and have equipment then losses from unsuccessful jumps are minimal.
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Post by Seamus on May 21, 2004 22:16:57 GMT -5
I suppose this could maybe happen if the enemy ship was first disabled?
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Post by CELS on May 22, 2004 7:31:11 GMT -5
The problem with Marines jumping across space in power armour and jump packs, is that their target ship is usually pretty damn fast and the distances are pretty damn huge. Under the right circumstances though, it would be possible, but to say that it's a standard method of boarding would not be plausible IMO.
I don't really see the advantage over using Thunderhawks though. Sure, Thunderhawks are easier to hit, but they also have better armour. And you risk losing some Marines who miss their target anyway.
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Post by Sikkukkut on May 22, 2004 8:39:05 GMT -5
Well, we can change it if folks insist, but this was based on Battlefleet Gothic rules mechanics for boarding actions. I've always had cringe-inducing casualty rates when I've sent Space Marines out in torps or assault boas, but maybe that's just my opponent's inhuman luck with weapon batteries...
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Post by CELS on May 22, 2004 9:00:51 GMT -5
No need to change it to boarding torpedoes and thunderhawks, I guess, but like I said, boarding actions are done with other types of space craft, and not by ships actually coming into contact with eachother. Thus, arguing that they prefer boarding actions because they dislike boarding craft such as Thunderhawks and boarding torpedoes is rather silly, since they use boarding craft in boarding actions anyway At least that's my opinion... By the way, Sikkukkut; what is the status of the Index Astartes article? Has Kage sent you his comments? Are you in the process of rewriting it? Any chance it'll be up on the forum for discussion soon?
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