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Post by Sojourner on Jul 3, 2004 10:52:42 GMT -5
Agreed - they might have the ships but there's nobody to crew them...
The primary goal of a space marine fleet is to deploy space marines. You don't need that many ships to do that - in fact, sending one into battle with less than its full complement of assault troops is asking to have it siezed...
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Post by CELS on Jul 3, 2004 10:54:56 GMT -5
Tynesh, by giving the Frost Bringers 7 strike cruisers, we are giving them less than the Ultramarines, whom I consider to be the average chapter in every way when it comes to structure and organisation. The whole point with the Frost Bringers, as I see it, is that they're trying to have something they shouldn't have, a battlefleet of their own, something other chapters are also trying, much to the dismay of the Imperial Navy. The argument that this fleet has a much bigger capacity than needed, is exactly the point. They're going above and beyond the call of duty. And out of interest, the Ultramarines' fleet has the capacity to carry 17 companies!! (Each battle barge can carry 3 companies, and each strike cruiser can carry 1) And that's not even counting the rapid strike vessles!!!! Of course, rapid strike vessels rarely carry more than one squad, if that. They mostly have techmarines and other specialists, according to BFG Armada. That is because rapid strike vessels are intended only for patrols and use as gunboats, rather than actual deployment of Space Marine forces. To me, two extra strike cruisers doesn't seem too much of a stretch. And we already agree on the extra rapid strike vessels, so... it's not much of a problem, IMO. Still, I'm glad to see you've actually thought about this, Tynesh ;D By the way, I've tried out the Astartes fleet in battle, with the BFG game. The boarding action-tactic is so difficult you wouldn't believe it. Thunderhawks are quite effective though, both as interceptors and for hit-and-run attacks with Space Marines. And just to repeat my case, strike cruisers are not only useful for boarding actions and planetary assaults. They're quite deadly in engagements with enemy ships, thanks to their heavy armour, and relatively heavy armament for a ship their size. Agreed - they might have the ships but there's nobody to crew them... Erm, eventhough a strike cruiser can carry one company, that doesn't mean it needs the company to crew the ship. Actually, the ship is crewed only by a handful of Space Marines, mostly Techmarines, and the rest is servitors and chapter serfs. Yes... that is pretty much the argument of the Imperial Navy Not at all. The Chapter serfs are trained and equipped to defend their ship. Allow me to quote from BFG: Armada; "Although human, they still benefit from remarkable training and access to superior weaponry than is usually found on a naval vessel, making them a fearsome prospect in a boarding action - even without the support of their genetically modified lords."Besides... in order to board a strike cruiser, you still need to get close enough to launch boarding craft, and with their speed and maneuverability, that is easier said than done. Believe you me
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 3, 2004 23:44:50 GMT -5
Even so, there are still too many ships IMO.
You must realise that the UM are FAR from a normal chapter as far as GW are concerned. I take it that you read the BFG article in WD284 on the UM ships...
...they can muster 5 battle barges at any one time, for "sector naval protection". They also have a complement of 10 strike crusiers, althought "this number has been known to increase as demand requires"
That is a maximum of 25 companies of marines!!!!
The article mentions some new ships that aren't in the chapter organisation list in the back of C:SM, that fought at the Battle of Macragge.
GW has no idea what people are writing for these articles or if they are correct!!!
GAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
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Post by CELS on Jul 4, 2004 1:45:13 GMT -5
GAAAAARRGGHHH!!! BUT THAT*S THE POINT, TYNESH!!! Your argument 'completely misses the target', as Kage might say. Saying that the Frost Bringer fleet is too big, is like saying that the Adeptus Mechanicus ships shouldn't be armed. No, the Adeptus Mechanicus ships shouldn't be armed, because space battles is the job of the Imperial Navy. But the Adeptus Mechanicus is sneaky, and so they keep their offensive capabilities secret. Likewise- No, the Space Marine Chapters shouldn't have so many battle barges and strike cruisers AND rapid strike vessels, because their ships are only supposed to transport the Space Marines to their destination, and should only be armed for defense. If the Space Marines need to take out an enemy fleet, they're supposed to call the Imperial Navy. But the Space Marines aren't entirely pleased with that, and prefer to get the job done themselves. And who can blame them? They consider themselves, quite rightly, superior to other forces, and know that they would be better off using their own forces. The quote I gave from BFG: Armada on this whole powerplay situation (in the FB Index Astartes thread) demonstrates this. So again, Tynesh, I've already proved your arguments invalid. To me, the Frost Bringers' expansion of their fleet is the only way to explain their preferance for space battles. If the Frost Bringers went by the book, they would tend to get their asses kicked in a space engagement. Sure, they could just board their enemies, but those enemies would have far superior range and firepower, not to mention the advantage of carrier ships which can send fighters to intercept Frost Bringer Thunderhawks and boarding torpedoes. And no, I have not really read the article in WD#284 (untill now), I was sticking to the stuff written by Andy Chambers and Gav Thorpe (found in Codex: Space Marines, BFG: Armada and WD#235). I consider this to be more valid than the ridiculous hogwash produced by Matt Keefe! So there!
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 4, 2004 9:37:28 GMT -5
Hmmmmm
Ok now re-read the bit about the large fleet....
....this part seems justified and so does the arguement for it in the previous post.
However, does the fleet need to be as big as you have made it (not wanting to be too annoying) Just remember that the Space Marines cannot build their own space vessels as they can tanks etc. The Astartes vessels can only be manufactured by the AdMech on forgeworlds, due to their hi tech and large size.
I am now tending toward liking the idea of a larger than normal fleet for the FB, due to their beliefs on space and its spiritual significance for them etc. What my problem is that the fleet is too big; sure a larger than average fleet is a good idea for them but not as big as has been suggested.
If the large fleet is more for space superiority than assault then maybe more smaller ships would be a better idea. I can see the Imperial Navy becoming angry at frigates etc destroying pirates and smugglers (maybe too well) and not notifying them, or leaving them picking up pieces after raids etc. Navy ships may be on patrol and get warned off by a SM escort with active weapon batteries.
By giving them a large fleet they are becoming a little to "big" and less average. We have decieded that the Anargo Sector is an average sector, with no "big" goings on occuring at the present. We have created a great SM chapter that is as average as they can be in a galaxy of uber-DIY-make them BIG-missing primarch-necron awakening-excommunicate traitoris chapters many people come up with. Sure a larger than normal fleet is a good side salad for the narrative, but a larger Armada puts them on a slippery slope to BIGNESS and eventual excommunicationville.
Remember that the AM are making these extra ships, not out of friendship, but out of duty and orders. I doubt any Magos is going to turn a blind eye to the order for 3 new top of the range strike cruisers and let them slip out the fleet yards by the backdoor and to have a young apprentice accidently shred the invoices. With the ships being built on Anargo Secundus and being the size they are they are not going to go unnoticed easily.
Sorry for the continued arguing, but I feel that a balance needs to be reached here that has not yet been found.
Tynesh
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Post by CELS on Jul 4, 2004 11:52:39 GMT -5
Sorry for the continued arguing, but I feel that a balance needs to be reached here that has not yet been found. LoL! "Sorry for the continued arguing"!? This is the Anargo Sector Project! We live for arguing!! ;D If there's anything you should apologize for, perhaps that would be not coming up with a suggestion for such a balance yourself. You keep saying that what I proposed is too much, so... what would be better? Constructive criticism, people! Now, to discuss the Adeptus Mechanicus, who would be making all these ships. (Yes, there's also Anargo Secondus, but I doubt these would produce more ships for the Frost Bringers than what is absolutely neccessary) The Adeptus Mechanicus is quite selfish in nature, at least some factions of it. They don't really worry about the balance between Imperial organisations. In fact, they tend to stretch that limit themselves. All they need to build extra ships for the Frost Bringers is a reward that makes it worthwhile. Determining what could make Proteus go above and beyond the call of duty for the Frost Bringers is actually a very interesting question.... The Frost Bringers certainly can't supply them with any of the major imports of Proteus, namely materials for production, people to be turned into servitors (they get those almost for free anyway), or foodstuff (if they don't make enough of that themselves). Perhaps there's some sort of alliance here though.... The Adeptus Mechanicus likes to go on long trips with their explorator fleets, doing research and searching for lost technology (or new technology), and often without sanction from the Adeptus Terra. In fact, they often prefer it if the rest of the Imperium keep their noses out of AM business. Unfortunately, the Adeptus Mechanicus isn't allowed ships with offensive capabilities, so if they want to investigate some potentially hostile planets (human or alien), they need the help of the Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard. Perhaps though... giving the Frost Bringers extra ships is a way of giving themselves extra ships. By enforcing a secret pact, the Adeptus Mechanicus might be able to get the Frost Bringers to escort the Adeptus Mechanicus ships on secret missions. So.... Tech Priest; "We need an armed escort to the Tha'loic system, where we will be doing secret business." Frost Bringer; "Well, good luck with that. We're busy." Tech Priest; "If you escort us, we'll throw in an extra Nova Class frigate ." Frost Bringer; "When are we leaving?" And it's not like the Administratum would actually know how many ships the Frost Bringers actually have. They can't possibly track all their ships, which is evident in the article by Lord Captain Morley, who can only give rough estimates of Space Marine ships in the Gothic sector.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 4, 2004 12:05:06 GMT -5
First off, I can merely add that I'm keen on the premise that an organisation can keep 'secret resources' to itself. Broadly. With lots of hand waving and gesticulating with magic wands... And it's not like the Administratum would actually know how many ships the Frost Bringers actually have. The adeptus administratum would - or rather should - have a means of keeping track of these things (i.e. registration, Charters (temporary or otherwise), licenses of practice, transponders, etc.). Any ship that doesn't conform to them are considered 'pirates' and destroyed. Admittedly, you really wouldn't want to do that to an SM vessel, although the come-back should be interesting...
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Post by Tynesh on Jul 4, 2004 20:59:00 GMT -5
Well okay then some sort of "agreement" seems to be developing with the AM on ship building.
One question I still have is why the extra capacity for troops that will never be used? Why don't they get the AM to build new or different ships for them to use, those that dont have unneeded capacity but the offensive capabitlites of SM vessels, maybe extras more suited to long range combat??
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Post by CELS on Jul 4, 2004 21:40:22 GMT -5
Well okay then some sort of "agreement" seems to be developing with the AM on ship building. Adding further intrigues to the Imperium!! Weeee! ;D Well, Fanatic has promised to write up some new SM vessels that are more suited to long range combat, so we'll definitely have some of those. However, the Space Marine chapters which use such dedicated 'gunboats' are walking on a knife's edge, since they're not supposed to have such ships, except escorts. And even then, there are those within the Imperial Navy who are raising voices at the Nova class frigate, because of its lance armament and lack of assault and deployment capability.
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Post by Lordof on Jul 4, 2004 23:33:50 GMT -5
I think Tynesh does have a Point
Perhaps say having only 2 BattleBarges and then the rest of the fleet.
But a quick question how many of those smaller vessels are merely resupply ships with nominal armament rather than actual combat vessels?
But i can see the FB spiltting up their Companies onto multiple ships simply to have boarding parties hit from multiple areas instead of from one direction.
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Post by CELS on Jul 5, 2004 0:10:36 GMT -5
Perhaps say having only 2 BattleBarges and then the rest of the fleet. But that would give them less ships than the average chapter, making no sense at all- none at all! If you're referring to the Rapid Strike Vessels; None. They are armed escorts, armed with torpedoes, weapons batteries and lances. Perhaps, but this would also mean that more of their ships would be vulnerable as they commit to boarding actions.
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Post by Lordof on Jul 5, 2004 14:11:09 GMT -5
The ships may be more numerous but i can see a lot of them having the difference between normal marine numbers per ship being made up by extra serfs.
Whilst obviously not as good as marines the extra numbers per ship would still make them highly formidable to board.
And perhaps we can solve the problem of their relative fleet size by having a constant stream of ships going in for repairs.
This would give them a normal sized fleet which would remain relatively unaffected by battlefield damage unlike other more conventional chapters.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 6, 2004 2:38:09 GMT -5
I don't see the problem ships can be captured as well as constructed, a few good boarding actions and few more ships are added to their fleet
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Post by Destecado on Jul 6, 2004 6:05:57 GMT -5
Based on the current discussion, I have been reconsidering the value of the Frost Bringers tactic of assaulting enemy ships. Rather than pounding them into submission with massed fire power, they try to take them as prize (take the ship intact). Taking the enemy ship in such a manner may give them the bartering chip that they require with the Adeptus Mechanicus.
I really don't see the Adeptus Mechanicus bringing a space marine chapter along as protection for their expiditionary missions. Some of what they find might be too sensative to have another arm of the Imperial machine involved. Also if there was ever a disagreement of how a situation should be handled, it would leave all the guns in the hands of the marines.
Trading captured ships for ordinance and other equipment above their alloted amount might be a way that the Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus both get around the system.
Rather than what has been described in the fluff already (the Frost Bringers cutting through the hull to let out the atmosphere) would it not make more sense to blow through air locks and pressure doors? these would probably not be as reinforced as the rest of the hull and could be replaced much easier than trying to replace the outer hull. True the original breaching pods would go throught the outer hull, but the Frost Bringers might try to minimize the damage when possible to take the ship intact.
Some of this would come down to the Frost Bringers psyche, which I think we need to discuss in more detail. I also think we need to do away with the rogue planet as a home base. What sets them apart from other chapters is their almost obsessive reverence for space. Living or working on anything such as a planet would be unsettling to them. They remind me alot of old mariners who make land fall rarely and then long to return to the sea.
Actually the call of the sea to latter day mariners might be the similar to what calls the Frost Bringers to space. They fight on planets when the need arises,but at first chance return to the depths of space. They feel some kinship perhaps with the explorer crews of the Adeptus Mechanicus who delve into the dark reachs of unknown space. Perhaps that is how the original deal came about.
While I know that there are other Chapters that are ship based, such as the Black Templars, I don't see it as being a problem doing this with the Frost Bringers. If you wish to give them a permanent base, then instead of sticking them on a planet (even a rogue planet) what about giving them a space station with some space dock facilities in some out of the way system at one of the Lagrange points.
Lagrange points. liberation points L-points are places where a light 3rd body can sit "motionless" with respect to 2 heavier bodies that are orbiting each other due to the force of gravity. There are five such points in the earth moon system. Asteroids sometimes congregate at the lagrange points. These are known as Trojans. Such a collection of trojans can be found at the L4 Lagrange Point of Jupiter.
This would give them control of a system, without placing them directly in orbit of a planet. It gives them the high ground without putting their back to a planet. It also allows them to track anyone approaching the base. Perhaps a base made of several asteroids pulled together at the lagrange point. It could house repair facilities as well as fabrication plants.
The Imperium may be willing to overlook such a facility since the Frost Bringers do not lay claim to any planet. Any defense that they undertake is based from ships in orbit or stations away from the planets. There could also be rivalry between the Chapter and the Imperial Navy for recruits. They would after all be looking for the same kind of individuals.
I think that the Imperial Navy and the Frost Bringers would have much of the same love hate relationship that has existed historically between the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corp.
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Post by Dazo on Jul 8, 2004 21:53:11 GMT -5
Strike Cruiser: Spear of Guilliman, I don't know i would have thought the ultramarines would probably already have a ship by that name, how about the Razorwind. Strike Cruiser: Creeping Death, it sounds a bit like a nurgle plague ship how about the Invictus Mortis Gladius: Son of Guilliman, I think there's a space marine chapter by that name, how about the Fortitude Hunter: Phantom Lord, its a bit to much for a destroyer how about the Aurorum
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