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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 29, 2004 6:10:54 GMT -5
No, but it is reasonable given the arguments about the 'psychic' nature of the Navigators. GW 'fluff' at its most superficial tends to allow that if something comes under the province of one of the "adeptus" then it is a part of that "adeptus". Of course, this doesn't make sense in the long run and, indeed, may not have been what the author was getting at. It just happens to be consistent with Phillip's arguments... kinda, though not saying that Phillip was referring to this bit. That, however, strikes me as inferring that because taxi company records show a certain person calling a cab on a certain day, clearly all travellers have to register themselves with the cab company. Actually, it's more like saying that all cab drivers must be registered with the local authority. The question that really rises is why the author felt that it was necessary for the navis nobilite to 'register' with the adeptus astra telepathica. While one can say that it is a register of travellers, why does this come under this organisation and not the arguably more appropriate adeptus administratum, or even just plain 'ole Fleet authorities? Furthermore, why does the navis nobilite allow themselves to be tracked in such a matter? The recap of the breaking of the smuggling ring then goes on to state that the Navigators involved were able to swan off completely free from charges... I must admit that I'm only getting to that. I'm liking the book in general though it has obviously caught me at a bad time, since I can barely force myself to pick it up even though it happens to be one of the more quality BL novels. Perhaps it is the continual reference to religious rights, despite the political backdrop, which annoys me... I must admite once again to despising religion, even though I find personal belief and faith - eve shared 'personal' belief and faith - to be great. Which goes to show that it's properly relating that side of things... I can read books on the anthropology of religion just fine, and find them enjoyable... But add in sycophantic belief, the constant harping of ritual just to maintain power structures... Ick! So thumbs up for the book even if there are bits that may be glitchy, depending on which eye you squint through... which seems to back up the idea of Navigators as a state apart. Although if they're as common as Phillip suggests... why? If they're so common the stranglehold becomes tenuous when applied against their supposed legal immunity since, as with any "adeptus", they are not quite as distinct as they would like. Given that the looser interpretation (that the Navigator's name was mentioned in an Astropathic log or communique in connection with that ship... You got me on that one... Or is there another spot somewhere in the book that I'm missing? I'll let you know if and when I get to it!
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Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 10:52:27 GMT -5
<grin> Mainly because it was just 'fluffy' enough to be not made up on the spot, but not consistent with the 'fluff' that has been pre-published (see RoC). I don't see how it solves any problems to be honest... but there we go. It solves the problem of Navigators not having a signal to steer by during the G/DAoT. Oh, and there is no need to create artificially boosted psykers - something that is not consistent with the 'fluff' - when one can merely draw from science to find an answer: speciation events. Whether there is necessarily any evidence for it in the past is irrelevant, but it offers a reasonable way by which 'psykers' could emerge... The only problem that you have is what forces could have caused this across the worlds other than GW fiant. But then again you're dealing with a level of hand-waving with whatever you're doing. The way I look at it: the G/DAoT scientists enhanced ‘natural’ Psykers (or those with a mere hint) into ‘Astropaths’ and ‘Navigators’. <Again though, despite my signature, there is little evidence to suggest that there was any monkeying around with psyker abilities during the G/DAoT other than the Navigators True, though they must have had Psykers in order for Navigator’s abilities to be utilized. If the G/DAoT scientists could make a ‘Navigator’ with resistance to the warp, why wouldn’t they do a comparatively minor enhancement to improve the output of the Psyker’s Psychic beacon? and that is only when you redefine their abilities as psychic (a product of the more recent 'fluff'). Navigators have been psychic/ Pyskers since 1E (rule book), and so haven’t changed since the very beginning of 40K. So let's leave that one alone. Lets not! My fluffy add-on would by its very nature be an ‘Imperial secret’ so I would not be surprised if it was never motioned in the fluff (and the fact I hadn’t written it ). Again, it seems all rather simple. A Navigator is not needed, although many would desire their presence. An Astropath is most definitely not needed, although some might be comforted by their presence. The idea that 'every ship' has one (RT, 4E) seems overtly problematic when you consider the 'shelf-life' of Astropaths in the newer 'fluff' (Abnett, Eisenhorn trilogy) and the logistics of getting all those psykers 'out there'. I think you are looking at this the wrong perspective: a Navigator isn’t needed to pilot a ship, but in Imperial space a ship is going to have one (Imperial Law). As for shelf-life of Astropaths, I would have thought that transporting them in suspended animation (stasis) would be prudent as it solves the problem of having thousands of active Psyker minds on one ship that would attract warp daemons and stops them from burning out. <There has been no strong argument to define why automatic presence on a ship should be adopted, given the weight of the 'fluff' anyway. With that said, it is reasonable to assume that Imperium-sponsored ships would want them which, if you are to beleive the specifics of the 'fluff', are the dominant ships. There are lots of augments for it, just you do not like any of them Just because you do not like the set up, doesn’t make it automatically boring. <Navigators are, once again, not required but desired. This is consistent with the 'fluff' with the exception of, seemingly, the 4E statement which excludes all the older material for, seemingly, no good reason especially when you include earlier material. Actually is seems that having a Navigator/ Astropath onboard means the ship’s captain is complying with Imperial code and hence they do not get into trouble (or shot down, due to ‘misunderstandings’). Worlds may be self-governing but the stars and space belong to the Imperium. This has been the way since 1E (rule book). <That both of the two 'types' are useful, and even in some circumstances necessary, does not mean that they must be present in all circumstances. Referencing the G/DAoT and saying 'travel was dangerous back yonder' doesn't quite work, more so when 'calculated warp jumps' - the reasonable extrapolation of tau travel - is stable and predictable enough. Personally I think it was safe enough back then, it is really the Imperium that enforces things. In order to run the Imperium as a state.
Oh holy mother of Marneus Calgar, I hate it when people say that If you read a bit of Ork fluff, you'll soon realize that the Orks are way too coordinated for us to assume that they just enter the warp with no concept of where they're going. They do care where they end up, because if they end up in a dead system, there's not much for them to conquer, is there? Now, now if you remember in another thread I mentioned the idea of a ‘collective’ navigator of the Orks. However they have different makeup to humans so they probably use a far older marker and in a different way. Seeing as worlds and stars have gravity that affects the warp, perhaps Orks just ‘understand’ where they are in the warp (this would put their special awareness skills through the roof).
Furthermore, why does the navis nobilite allow themselves to be tracked in such a matter? I think it’s a two way thing, Navigators have ‘immunity’ and so if a navigator disappears the Imperium is responsible (kinda like a country who has a diplomat disappear on foreign soil, the country can demand the return of their diplomat, so the foreign country where the diplomat disappeared would have to then go out and find him/her. Hence keeping tabs serves everyone’s purpose).
A few notes; Though there were few Navigators during the G/DAoT the Navigator families have had several thousand years to grow. In 40K there are millions of them. The Navigator families are independent in the same way as any ‘ruling elite’, they are like nobles and diplomats rolled into one. Though they are not ruled by the Imperium the Navigator families do have many ties and treaties with the Imperium. Once a Navigator is outside there own private property they have various protocols that they must abide by, as much for their own safety as for the Imperium’s big brother act. One of the treaties between the Navigators and the Imperium may have been the adoption of the law that specifies that all ships in the Imperium must have a navigator onboard. It may not be common knowledge among the citizens of the Imperium that this is the case. It may also be the Navigators who insist on Astropaths being taken on every ship they are on (Navigators think they are important, and if the ship breaks down they want to be rescued). The final part is the Astropath transponder aspect and how one views the Geller field.
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Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 16:48:36 GMT -5
Only if you define that they must have a psychic beacon to navigate by, which is fair enough if you read the 'fluff' in 4E but is not entirely consistent with other material (i.e. Watson, Inquisitor; ?King, Farseer). So, yes it does solve a problem, but only if you make it a problem in the first place. Ever since 1E (rule book), navigators have had to make use of a psychic beacon. So there must have been Psykers during the G/DAoT. Besides that most novels describe ‘exceptions’ so shouldn’t be taken as canon. Though the 'fluff' has previously been rather keen on the idea that there were no natural psykers before the Age of Strife in the human race. It's only when you think about the 'real world' and the fact that psychic phenomenon are 'present' that you want to introduce them. But technically, beyond the Emperor? Nada. That’s not correct either, see above. There was an explosion in the numbers of Psykers before the Age of Strife and of that number a large proportion had full Psyker powers. My fluffy add-on accounts for this Only if you use the specific statement of the 4E 'fluff' and disclude the other material... And also the general weight of consensus of those people that have been thinking about getting 40k to work for several years. Again ever since 1E there has been Psykers during the G/DAoT. Furthermore, the tau themselves would seem to indicate that you don't need psykers in order to use the warp... True. The Tau Empire isn’t the Imperium, and they have different technology and infastructure. Also their travel is severely limited because of the nature of their navigation (calculated), unlike the Imperium. If the Tau ever learnt about Psykers and Navigators (which they won’t) they would switch. No natural psykers... or at least no natural psykers of any significant strength. Hence my idea of ‘enhancement’ ;D It moved away from that in general thought for quite some time... Let's not get simplistic. Moved away? Navigators have always been Psykers: it is one of those enduring 40K fluff facts Ah, now we're taking another tack. I see the reasons for Navigators and Astropaths on all ships that travel in the Imperium as being multi-layered. Why not just work with psyborgs... it would be much easier and far, far more believable. Psyborgs? Other than a cheap laugh (;D), why? Again, it also presupposes that Astropaths are required, and while it is specific in 1E it is only inferred in 4E. It’s a little stronger that inferred, and I think you are trying to exploit a ‘loophole’. Only if you have them as common as muck. Despite that 'fluff' from 1E, this might not be the case. I wouldn’t call a hundred or so per planet, and a few per starship as ‘common as muck’. They are still an extremely small fraction of humanity. The balance of the argument thus far, and not just my own, works against you on this one. Then take you thumb of the scales True. But for me because they are circular, working only because something is chosen as a valid assumption... And, yes, some of them I just plain don't like. Hell, I don't like the C'tan but I'm stuck with them. Hmm, aren’t all arguments relating to 40K going to be circular? Calling a 40K argument or any sci-fi argument circular is like shooting fish in a barrel And what I have argued... I'm still not finding the relevance of your argument. The relevance is the Imperium is in charge of Imperial space, so Imperial law has to be complied with if you wish to travel with its boarders.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 16:49:53 GMT -5
Hmmn... I'm finding it increasingly harder to reply to these threads, less a result of an inability to argue but the feeling that I'm going around in circles. I'm sure, however, that Phillip feels the same. I admire his... tenacity in arguing for what he believes in, and ability to draw out the quotes in the earlier 'fluff' which seemingly support the new 'fluff'. I must admit that his arguments have reminded me that my assumption of inconsistency is not always correct... ... But still, we're going around in circles. On the bright side, apart from being slightly frustrating, they do make fairground rides based upon the premise so perhaps there is some good in it after all. Or maybe not. It solves the problem of Navigators not having a signal to steer by during the G/DAoT. Yes it does, but in exclusion of the premise that there were no substantial 'psyker' presence before the Age of Strife, which is about one of the few reasons for the 'fall' of that former civilisation rather the ad hoc 'research' ( ) of the Iron Men (read: Butlerian Jihad). So, yes, it works. But only if you believe that it needs to work... If you wish to take something away from Navigators and argue that their abilities are purely psychic, trainable and unsurprisingly still only accessible to them... The way I look at it: the G/DAoT scientists enhanced ‘natural’ Psykers (or those with a mere hint) into ‘Astropaths’ and ‘Navigators’. Well, well 'evidence of absence' doesn't mean that this cannot be so, I would tend to think not. It only works if you require Navigators to have an 'astropathic' signal, or even a fair limitation... But with all the problems of astropathic abilities translated in the past. No, it raises far more problems than it solves... True, though they must have had Psykers in order for Navigator’s abilities to be utilized. Only if you believe that astropathic/psychic beacons must have been used in the past. I do not feel that is a necessary and automatic assumption and, indeed, based upon the arguments of others elsewhere it would appear that many also do not share this opinion. Indeed, there was the general idea that the Astronomican is rather another level of 'control' for the Navigators. That if it was actually turned off then it wouldn't present too much of a problem to their abilities... Of course, this works on the premise that there were no psychic beacons in the past... If the G/DAoT scientists could make a ‘Navigator’ with resistance to the warp, why wouldn’t they do a comparatively minor enhancement to improve the output of the Psyker’s Psychic beacon? The only problem with this is that it works on the principle that: (a) powerful psykers existed in the G/DAoT that were used as beacons; (b) that people knew about them; (c) that they were manipulated to make them more powerful because, of course, scientists naturally and consciously manipulated Navigator 'genes' to make them. All huge assumptions, many of which might not actually be relevant or appropriate but which do admittedly support your approach. Again, I'm going to work on the principle that given the rest of the 'fluff' it is a reach to suggest that there was conscious manipulation of psykers. Navigators have been psychic/ Pyskers since 1E (rule book), and so haven’t changed since the very beginning of 40K. Emphasis has changed, and in GW products that can be damning in and of itself. After all, that's where many of the problems arise from. Let's no. My fluffy add-on would by its very nature be an ‘Imperial secret’... I would imagine it would be more a 'total universe secret', which would in an RPG be included in "GM Knowledge". I doubt that the Imperium would ever know about it... but then again, who knows. I think you are looking at this the wrong perspective: a Navigator isn’t needed to pilot a ship, but in Imperial space a ship is going to have one (Imperial Law). Wow... That's a new one to be used, although if one were to take into account previous arguments then it would be: "Navigators are necessary, therefore all ships have Navigators, and because all ships have Navigators which are necessary, all ships must have Navigators." I must admit to being harsh in some regards, but then again I freqently ask just what something is adding to the universe. Oh, BTW. I managed to read some fragments of 4E... I was going to buy it until I realised how expensive it was. But it makes very good fiction. Teenage fiction, yes, but fiction nonetheless. As for shelf-life of Astropaths, I would have thought that transporting them in suspended animation (stasis) would be prudent... <grin> Given the rest of the technology of the Imperium, if you were going to go down this route then there is absolutely no reason that they would even need this. Plagerised psyborgs from GURPS Psionics would work, as a variation of the servomat/servitor... All the advantages, with none of the disadvantages. I think it was on Portent about two years ago. as it solves the problem of having thousands of active Psyker minds on one ship that would attract warp daemons and stops them from burning out. Now solve the problem of one active psyker mind (cf. Farseer) without liberal hand-waving and saying, "Well, that's an astropath. That's different." There are lots of augments for it, just you do not like any of them It's true that, for the most part, I've felt that they've lacked strength. Just because you do not like the set up, doesn’t make it automatically boring. You're right, and it's not. Actually is seems that having a Navigator/ Astropath onboard means the ship’s captain is complying with Imperial code and hence they do not get into trouble... Which reinforces your approach, but it is not strictly necessary.
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Post by Philip on Oct 31, 2004 17:01:53 GMT -5
Wow, I’ve replied to a post that doesn’t exist!
The new post sounds slightly softer, does this mean you are actually entertaining some of my ideas?
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 31, 2004 20:15:31 GMT -5
Yes I can indeed change my opinion from post to post. I can change how I want to say something from post to post.
I always listen. I would feel that it is a mistake to assume that I don't listen merely for the source. I question only the arguments and their validity against a 'balanced' universe which is not solely defined by the imagery.
And, yet again, I can see another thread closing... <sigh>
Edit: Post deleted for... various reasons the mention of which are inappropriate and contentious.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 10:59:29 GMT -5
Hey, no need to delete the post I was only playing! ;D
=Geller Field= Anyway, I think our views of Astropaths may also be influenced by how we see the Gellar field functioning: I see is as a field that allows reality to remain intact (a pulling force) that creates a small oasis of reality in the warp.
Because it is a ‘bubble of reality’ in reacts in the same way as normal reality and Psykers are bound by the same rules as they are in normal reality.
Example: Psyker using telepathy in normal space Psyker in reality > casts a message through the warp > message picked up by another Psyker in reality.
Example: Psyker using telepathy in warp space Psyker in reality (Geller field) > casts a message through the warp > message picked up by another Psyker in reality.
As you can see the two situations are solved in the same way.
=Other aspects= This all means that a daemon may be able to try and open a ‘warp portal’ in order to enter the Geller field as it would enter actual reality. Inside the Geller field is the same as being in actual reality, with the same protections. However a psyker prone to procession would be as vulnerable as in the materium.
Problem: If the Geller field collapses, would the ship drop back into real space or just break apart as it looses integrity, and is it possible that the warp can form natural ‘Gellar fields’ around foreign matter?
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 11:53:24 GMT -5
Hey, no need to delete the post I was only playing! ;D Fairy snuff, thought that it and the edit of the previous post would be the wisest of things to do... Everyone seems to be rather stressed at the moment, and I include myself on this one since I'm going to be changing countries on Thursday. But might try and pop into another GW store... Is there somewhere in central London that isn't as pokey and perhaps fairly more representative of what GW hopes to be then Oxford Street in the arcade? Anyway, I think our views of Astropaths may also be influenced by how we see the Gellar field functioning: I see is as a field that allows reality to remain intact (a pulling force) that creates a small oasis of reality in the warp. Which, for me, would go against the sense of the space hulks, the 'warp walk' taken on by Draco et al., etc. We've already 'established' that in general opinion the warp is less 'fragmented' the closer you are to the matterium or, at least, the warp/matterium threshold. The 'deeper' that you go in the warp - the automatic province of the Navigators, of course, since cogitators find it difficult enough calculating a jump in the shallows and cannot even see the depths! - the more fragmented reality. Beyond (for me) another level, you get into the Deep Warp (cf. Deep Ubra, MtA), or the "Realms of Chaos"... Which is a bit of an aside. What am I saying? Well, other than the fact that we've done this in various forms across various threads? I've been stringently against the 'weird science' idea that the Geller Field is a 'reality stabiliser' but, to be fair, it makes a certain amount of sense given the more considered approach that I've also been advocating. With that said, however, the reality stabiliser function must - should - be considered amongst the propulsive aspects of the warp drive, e.g. the 'warp sail' approach. I personally find it untenable and, at this point will not allow, the tacky approach that you have a reality field so that you can use your normal thrusters. No, no and no. But you do get an approach whereby the 'reality stabiliser' effects are held in tension with the propulsive effects. This increases the complexity of the universe in a 'fluffalogical' fashion while also conforming to the spirit, and arguably balance, of the 'fluff'. And, again, it means that Navigators are required for the Deep Warp and must also have some form of connection to the 'shields'... Again, all 'fluffalogical'. Because it is a ‘bubble of reality’ in reacts in the same way as normal reality and Psykers are bound by the same rules as they are in normal reality. That I will not agree with at all. That the Geller Field 'stabilises' reality I can deal with. But using this as a - and I'm sorry for this - lame excuse by which psykers can utilise their abilities in the warp without problem, and therefore your little Astropathic transponder idea, is not something that is going to happen. If nothing else it would go against the 'fluff' from King's Farseer once more. So, while it might be 'more real', or 'more stable', it is still the warp. This all means that a daemon may be able to try and open a ‘warp portal’ in order to enter the Geller field as it would enter actual reality. Again, this is not consistent with the 'imagery' (at least) of King's Farseer unless suddenly the Geller Field is 'flush' with the hull. Admittedly, one can argue inaccurate 'fluff' in this regard, but then again it also makes sense... However a psyker prone to procession would be as vulnerable as in the materium. See combined approach to Geller Field coupled with the Watson 'fluff' on 'daemonic protection fields'. Again... nope. If the Geller field collapses, would the ship drop back into real space or just break apart as it looses integrity, and is it possible that the warp can form natural ‘Gellar fields’ around foreign matter? Canonically it breaks apart because - well, obviously! doh! - daemons rip the ship to shreds. After all, you're sailing on their bodies. Given the above and the general consensus that has been reached on a reasoned approach to warp travel, it would vary depending on the depth and the 'interest' of the denizens. Despite what most people would argue, I find it horrendously... limited? childish?... that daemons just happen to be everywhere. (Admittedly you do get dolphin/seagull analogies going on, but still...) Rather if the ship stays near the surface it can quite readily survive. But as mentioned before their are 'rip tides' which can drag you under and beyond the realms where - for the most part - you are 'safe' (or as safe as you're going to be). Space hulks have a tendency of doing this, another one of the reasons that they 'merge' together rather than merely crashing into each other...
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 12:26:42 GMT -5
What am I saying? Well, other than the fact that we've done this in various forms across various threads? I've been stringently against the 'weird science' idea that the Geller Field is a 'reality stabiliser' but, to be fair, it makes a certain amount of sense given the more considered approach that I've also been advocating. With that said, however, the reality stabiliser function must - should - be considered amongst the propulsive aspects of the warp drive, e.g. the 'warp sail' approach. I personally find it untenable and, at this point will not allow, the tacky approach that you have a reality field so that you can use your normal thrusters. No, no and no. Ah, I think if the Geller field worked as I have described it: thrusters may output power inside the Geller Field as normal but as soon as the exhaust left the Gellar field it would instantly disintegrate in the warp and produce no external thrust what so ever (I don’t think the warp obeys the ‘conservation on energy’ laws). I think the Geller Field only provides the ‘reality bubble’ that is needed to keep the ship intact. As to how a ship steers in the warp that is open for debate - obviously I’ll go for my phase field aka bubble tech ‘sail’ as a means of controlling the ship but I now how that drives you nuts so any ideas? That I will not agree with at all. That the Geller Field 'stabilises' reality I can deal with. But using this as a - and I'm sorry for this - lame excuse by which psykers can utilise their abilities in the warp without problem, and therefore your little Astropathic transponder idea, is not something that is going to happen. If nothing else it would go against the 'fluff' from King's Farseer once more. And there’s me thinking it was an elegant solution Again, this is not consistent with the 'imagery' (at least) of King's Farseer unless suddenly the Geller Field is 'flush' with the hull. Admittedly, one can argue inaccurate 'fluff' in this regard, but then again it also makes sense... I don’t see why it would be flush with the hull of the ship, I was thinking more of a sphere of reality with the ship inside (a ship in a bottle). Canonically it breaks apart because - well, obviously! doh! - daemons rip the ship to shreds. After all, you're sailing on their bodies. ;D So it could be seen as ‘interpretation’? In my mind the ship breaks apart because with the collapse of the Geller Field the normal laws of physics disappear and the ship becomes subject to the laws of the warp. So even without daemons the ship falls apart and disintegrates (though any daemon nearby would help out )
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 2, 2004 12:48:35 GMT -5
Ah, I think if the Geller field worked as I have described it: thrusters may output power inside the Geller Field as normal but as soon as the exhaust left the Gellar field it would instantly disintegrate in the warp... The reason that I feel that the 'normal propulsion' in a 'reality bubble' is an irrelevant concept is because it refers to its own system. That is to say that the Geller Field is inherently exclusive, yet it requires an opening to the rest of the system to propel itself... One image that I cannot get out of my head is that taken in total, the Geller Field/reality stabiliser with reaction-based drive systems is like trying to pick yourself up by the ankles. I know for a fact that I can lift my own body weight and then some, but try as I might if I bend over and grab my ankles I just cannot lift myself... I think the Geller Field only provides the ‘reality bubble’ that is needed to keep the ship intact. I would suggest that using the words 'in tact' brings over the fact that it is necessary, i.e. without it you are not going to stay intact. Rather, saying that it tends to stabilise the 'laws of reality' just means that if you turn it off those laws come into effect. This therefore allows a spectrum of activity rather than just the limited option, or the 'dumbing down' as it were. ...but I now how that drives you nuts so any ideas? I think it was more the fact that you applied 'bubble tech' to every single thing in the universe. Whether you create the 'sails' with alteration to field morphology or variation in field strength is interesting to discuss but at this juncture less relevant than acknowledging that manipulation of the field is responsible for control of movement just as much as the 'currents' are responsible for providing the force. And there’s me thinking it was an elegant solution It works, don't get me wrong. But it works only to justify what you're saying. When there is some doubt upon the requirement then it is problematic. Furthermore, the whole idea of 'taking a little chunk of home' just appears too... simple. And fraught with problems including the 'instant return home' clause that many people try and argue. I don’t see why it would be flush with the hull of the ship, I was thinking more of a sphere of reality with the ship inside (a ship in a bottle). Then you'd better take a look at Farseer. ship becomes subject to the laws of the warp. So even without daemons the ship falls apart and disintegrates... And what 'laws of the warp are those'? Don't get me wrong, I do personally believe that the ship gradually ablates but I argue strenuously against the idea that they are torn apart. Why? Again, space hulks. Or do they all, again, conveniently have an operating Geller Field?
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 13:44:06 GMT -5
The reason that I feel that the 'normal propulsion' in a 'reality bubble' is an irrelevant concept is because it refers to its own system. That is to say that the Geller Field is inherently exclusive, yet it requires an opening to the rest of the system to propel itself... Totally agree.
Now the other stuff seems to relate to the stability of the Geller Field. =unbreakable=Just like the materium doesn’t need any energy to keep it separate from the warp, I’m thinking that once a ship drops into the warp its Geller Field remains intact no matter what. Even if the ship is lost in the warp (crew dies) the Geller field remains (there could be Geller Filed bubbles form the very first lost warp jump experiments floating around the warp filled with dust of the decomposed original ship). However, I think just as it cost energy to power up the Geller Field in the first place, so turning it off and dropping back into real space requires energy. This all means that if a ship in the warp looses power, it can’t leave, it is trapped. To prevent this, if there are any problems in flight, the ship will always drop back into real space as a precaution. A Space Hulk would therefore have a Geller Field, even if the Hulk has no power or operating systems. =Dropping Back=I think the mechanism for dropping back into real space would be easy (much like popping a bubble with a pin), and not require a Geller Field generator of any kind. Maybe any physical contact (so no thrusters) with the Geller Field or any physical piecing of the Geller Field implodes the field and drops the Ship back into real space. It would also mean any external explosions would drop the ship back into real space. (There could have a manually operated ‘spike’ onboard which can be cranked using man power for use in emergencies to implode the field). A Space Hulk would drop back into real space it a chunk fell off. A low level gamma bust reacts with the field which then implodes… Laser beam… =Warp Gates=Old fluff, but I imagine that as the ship passes through a warp gate it gains a Geller Field, which remains until forcefully imploded.
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Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 10:58:14 GMT -5
Now, now if you remember in another thread I mentioned the idea of a ‘collective’ navigator of the Orks. However they have different makeup to humans so they probably use a far older marker and in a different way. Seeing as worlds and stars have gravity that affects the warp, perhaps Orks just ‘understand’ where they are in the warp (this would put their special awareness skills through the roof). So you clearly don't mean that 'orks don't care where they go', and that they just wander aimlessly untill they happen to meet some trouble. Good.
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Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 11:14:45 GMT -5
So you clearly don't mean that 'orks don't care where they go', and that they just wander aimlessly untill they happen to meet some trouble. Good. OK, I’ll expand that, the majority of Orks don’t care as in the sense that they don’t care who they fight. They don’t care which world they destroy as long as it was fun Now I do think they care about ending up of some boring world with not much happening, so as to navigating I suppose that they care but not in conscious fashion. They end up at a good fight, because that’s what they want, and it’s their sub-conscious that does the business. So asking an Ork: Do you care where you end up? The answer is no, but bear in mind that Orks always end up in a fight so it doesn’t really occur to them that they may not. To them it’s not a consideration. ;D
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Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 11:34:57 GMT -5
I have a terrible habit of crashing long threads, make a complete stop in the discussion, and try to start anew by asking what I perceive to be rather important questions. Before I do that, I feel the urge to reply to the terribly Off-T discussion with Philip My point was that Orks clearly have navigated travel. They have a way to navigate the warp; and they don't just enter the warp not caring where they end up. To me, you seemed to initially argue the opposite, though I'm pleased that it was just a misunderstanding. Now... it seems to me that Philip has fired all his guns and Kage has remained unphased. In other words, Kage is not swayed by Philip's arguments, and I believe Philip has had the chance to argue his case, and argued it well in some respects. I think it is time that we write a summary where we explain the ASP view of Astropaths (and eventually Navigators and warp travel too). Even if Philip doesn't agree that the ASP view is consistent with fluff, I hope that he will try to still work with the setting of the project. And of course, when I say that 'we' should write a summary, I mean that Kage should write a summary, since he has a better grasp of the ASP view than most. Even if I do agree with what he's said so far in this thread (I think), I think that it would be wise if he wrote the summary, and not I. There's my .10, since I obviously agree that you're going in circles now. Everything that there is to say has been said, at the moment. Edit- Oh, and yes I know you're moving to the US tomorrow, Kage. That's ok. We can wait for a while, I think. Good luck with that, by the way.
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Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 14:02:00 GMT -5
I thought things were starting to get interesting Kage and I have very similar ideas (but different) and now we a digging to find the source of that difference, I suspect that the Geller Field is the second step of divergence (the warp being the first).
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