|
Post by CELS on Oct 26, 2004 10:01:19 GMT -5
Oh yes, I knew. You were slightly in error, but it was all tongue-in-cheek hence the somewhat obvious reply with Monty Python... I felt relatively secure in that since it seems to cross the language barriers fairly easily, more so the with the films such as Monty Python and the Holy Grail! ;D I picked up the humorous tone there, yes My apologies, Kage- that is the last thing I would do. I'm afraid it must be either my relatively bad English, your twitchiness, or a combination I have no problem understanding why you don't buy or read White Dwarfs. At the moment, I'm in the same boat as you are. In my opinion, only 3rd Edition fluff is meant to be Imperium-centric. At least, I think so. Now I really wish I had access to my books at home I presume that you mean the 3rd Edition books now. Codex Ultramarines, Space Wolves and Angels of Death from 2nd Edition are written in a totally different style than the new codexes. The same goes for Codex Imperialis. Fair enough, as long as you're prepared to hear my thoughts on these arguments Fortunately, I think you're right. ( Note: The "suspend disbelief roll" is something from an old gaming group. If we just didn't think that something was possible, or correct given the context of description, we had "failed our suspend disbelief roll".) The Dark Millennium box set was an add-on for 2nd Edition Warhammer 40,000. The gay 90's of GW. This is where I think it gets messy. I prefer to make clean cuts between 1E, 2E, 3E and 4E, and call any contradictions within these periods... well, contradictions. As long as we can point to the fluff contradicting itself (Recent fluff says that only Astropaths are capable of interstellar communication, yet also says that the Primarch Magnus did it), I'm not so worried about obvious counter-arguments. Especially not when you consider obvious counter-counter-arguments, such as; There are many aliens that do not have Astropaths, but that obviously have interstellar communication. Thus, other psykers must be able to do it, though less successfully.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 26, 2004 10:25:01 GMT -5
Well Kage, it seems your view of warp routes is compatible with mine. I would once again suggest that this is where the analogy fails in direct application. It predicates Navigator=driver and within the context of the analogy, since a driver is required a Navigator is required. This is not strictly true (cf. WD139/140), but which is a very part of the 'argubate' itself... But you also get to that. Navigator=driver on navigated jumps Autopilot=driver on calculated jumps If it was having to navigate in the dark, without any reference, then yes. But that's not the case. Hmm, continuing the analogy, the Jaguar/ Mercedes system is good on clearly marked roads, but no one would trust it on a rocky mountain trail or dirt track. Warp routes are a little fuzzy; they require feeling and a bit of intuition to ride, something machines aren’t great at. As a personal add on, I think due to the nature of the warp (being psychic based) that a machine can’t see all of the parts that make up warp, so in a way it is operating on ‘fuzzy’ route while missing a lot of information. It is therefore not surprising that calculated jump aren’t they most reliable in current 40K. It would appear primarily in the fact that your argument is geared to automatically make calculated jumps inherently dangerous thereby moving for the automatic adoption of the Navigator... Maybe during the G/DAoT the warp was so calm that calculated jumps weren’t such a bad idea, but in 40K the warp is all messed up.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 11:21:03 GMT -5
Well Kage, it seems your view of warp routes is compatible with mine. To be honest, it seems very much the same trouble as myself and CELS had at the very beginning as I have mentioned before. We both have strong ideas on how things work, but it is managing to communicate this in ways that work. We also seem to come from slightly different ends of the spectrum. Navigator=driver on navigated jumps Autopilot=driver on calculated jumps Fair enough. To put it into my terms, the 'programs' that control a calculated jump have a certain skill rating for the 'success' of the jump. For example, it might be "Astrogation-12" or somesuch. This is then directly modified by the 'strength' of the local warp conditions, which can either be natural (by-product of the nature of the warp) or un-natural (result from Chaotic intervention). The 'strength/scale' is directly associated with the Beaufort Scale for weather and acts as a direct negative modifier to the 'roll' for success... Indeed, the original values that I used were: Thus if you had the "Astrogation-12" program operating in a 'moderate distortion', the program would effectively be "Astrogation-8" (success only on 25.9% of circumstances). In a significantly violent storm, such as that which surrounded Terra during the Age of Strife or currently around the EoT, you're talking about 0.5-1.9% success rates. However, failure does not automatically result in a ship being light years off target, automatically lost or whatever... Only on a 'critical' failure would this be considered (0.5-1.9%, or as narratively convenient, but would also include extensive 'temporal' problems, huge displacements light years from the origin). The other is a linear scale varying upon the 'roll' and how much it failed by and includes 'major' displacement in precipitation point, varying scales of 'damage' to the ship and/or crew, increase in warp transit time and extension of the relative time spent outside of the matterium, etc. Again, the figures aren't that disparate from what you're arguing but it is the extent to which it is being argued. I generally work on the fact that the most advanced computer programs available have an "Astrogation" of around the '14' level, about that of a 'well-trained' Navigator. But such programs are still restricted by the complexity of the computers used (e.g. adeptus mechanicus-constructed machines only thus another level of 'control'), as well as other factors (cost, etc.). Calculated jumps also take significantly longer than Navigated jumps... both in terms of waiting around 'detecting the warp' (remember that this is the 'fluff' of the calculated jumps and would most likely also be used in an AWAC setting), making the calculations, etc., though the time between 'sensing' and 'precipitation' must necessarily be small. In application to 'warp routes' in general? Major routes are something that would more than likely have 'distortion modifers' of around the 0-4 level. Feeder routes then 2-5 level, while Minor routes may be 4-7... but only as general guidelines. The whole point of the trade routes is that they are fairly predictable. If you go 'cross' road then you can be dealing with any situation. Warp routes are a little fuzzy; they require feeling and a bit of intuition to ride, something machines aren’t great at. Warp travel is fuzzy... warp routes take away some of the fuzziness, but not all. As a personal add on, I think due to the nature of the warp (being psychic based) that a machine can’t see all of the parts that make up warp... You will note that based on previous comments that I have made that I agree with this, though I used the analogy of an oceanic 'thermocline' (i.e. temperature differences between two 'currents' which cause radio-opacity to radar/sonar systems). There is a point where the artificial sensors cannot see beyond, and these are occassionally 'tossed' up into the 'shallows'... This was the point of the original creation of the above rules as well as the more consistent interpretation of the warp: it allows the explanation of these phenomenon without continual hand-waving (again, this is talking generally). Indeed, one could further compound the situation by saying that even in the visible shallows, its like trying to drop a small pebble into a shot glass which is beneath water. Refraction of light makes this difficult to do (i.e. the glass doesn't appear to be where it really is), but if the density/displacement of the stone is sufficiently small, and the velocity of a local current sufficienty high, the pebble could be carried horizontally rather than just a vertical drop... All of which is all easy enough to explain and can be used as a framework of interpretation... But those are the mechanics that I use and, in terms of rough numbers, they are broadly similar to yours just not as... pessimistic. It is therefore not surprising that calculated jump aren’t they most reliable in current 40K. I would say that they are, broadly, reliable. They were in the G/DAoT, but that is the bias that I bring to it... It is only after the introduction of the Navigator that the 'empire' could be formed during that period. Maybe during the G/DAoT the warp was so calm that calculated jumps weren’t such a bad idea, but in 40K the warp is all messed up. I would say that it varies significantly. One suggestion that was missed was that we look at things historically. 4E was preceeded by the 13th Black Crusade, and the period of history that lies in... Perhaps the 'background noise' of the warp has increased thereby making things more difficult... At present I generally work on a 'background noise' in the realm of 3-4...
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 26, 2004 12:44:57 GMT -5
I see what you are saying and I like it, but with a but.
When I was talking about the inability of machines to see all the parts of the warp, I was thinking of a limitation in the same way that humans can’t see infrared.
Humans can see visible light, but not infrared, and the world looks very different when you look through an infrared camera. For example, a human hiding among trees in the dark is very easy to spot using an infrared camera.
If most of the warp is psychic in nature I imagine this causes great problems for machines, maybe there are parts of the warp a machine can see, perhaps the warp gives of light or something a machine camera can lock onto, but the true structure with remain hidden from the machine. Only a navigator can see the warps true structure, as only a navigator have the psyker ability to really see the warp in all it glory.
Another example, would be the use of sonar by bats (not in the way submarines use it). Even in the pitch black they can see where humans can’t (even with an infrared camera, deep caves look, well, blankish)
What I driving at is that machines are severely handicapped when it come to dealing with a psychic medium, machines just aren’t capable, its like they are virtually blind: and so any calculation, no matter how good, is going to be off because the input is so dire in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 14:28:14 GMT -5
I see what you are saying and I like it... Thought you would. When it comes down to it we have some similar opinions - with the exception of Marine strength, of course! - it is often the way that things are put, i.e. whether talking about generic 'fluff' or about specific representation. Isn't there always one of them. When I was talking about the inability of machines to see all the parts of the warp, I was thinking of a limitation in the same way that humans can’t see infrared. I do not see a problem for this. When I mentioned 'thermoclines' and referenced 'light refraction' as an analogy I did not specifically state the reasons why this existed. To be fair, I though it was just a 'cool idea' and it has been a while since I've seriously looked at this type of thing... However, what I quickly described still works with the ('fluffalogical') explanations with regards to the warp. There is a certain amount of "suspension of disbelief" in that the link between electromagnetic and 'emotive' phenomenon must be accepted, but beyond that... Well, I'm sure that someone can think of problems, but this one works for me. The mechanical systems are recording electromagnetic (EM phenomenon, including gravitic, etc.) when they are 'recording' the warp. At the closest 'levels' of the warp to the matterium we have the dominance of 'perception' and the immediate reaction to consensual reality. Kirulean (sp.?) auras and that whole schabang. In true "hand-waving" pseudo-science fashion, the warp drive measures these phenomenon which includes the 'tides' and 'currents' of the warp and translates this to images, etc., which the 'navicomp' (forgive the Wing Commander term) then utilises in its calculations for a calculated warp jump... The real bugger is that there is so much more. Hidden beneath the 'thermocline' where EEGs and 'science' fails... that is the emotional dominated areas that you see. The bits were dreams take over from reality... and beyond that is the fragmented reality of subconscious reality that myself and Destecado have talked about in the past and which, indeed, is related to the whole "Heart of Anargo" phenomenon. but the true structure with remain hidden from the machine. See the above for exceptions, but as you can see we seem to be agreeing. Only a navigator can see the warps true structure, as only a navigator have the psyker ability to really see the warp in all it glory. Well, zholud seems to be a tad annoyed about the stated 'psyker' nature of the Navigators, although this is given 'fluff' credence in the fact that they have to be registered with the adeptus astra telepathica (e.g. Farrer, Crossfire). And, indeed, I have always represented their abilities through 'psyker abilities' (originally psionics, but now 'magic' though I know that sends you a bit twitchy)... With that as a fairly weird aside, I agree. The Navigator sees the warp both in terms of the 'things' that the EM sensors see, but also on the emotive levels meaning that in many regards that they are akin to empaths (which may or may not be interesting, contested, or whatever). This also relates back to zholud's comments that a Navigator 'feels' the warp and does not specifically recognise it on an abstract basis, although that does not necessarily disclude that they create absract theories to explain their abilities. I would add the caveat that they do not see the entire warp, only that which they understand... or feel... What I driving at is that machines are severely handicapped... machines just aren’t capable, its like they are virtually blind... I self-evidently disagree with the fact that machines are not incapable. Indeed, I think that there is sufficient 'science' to suggest that in the 'pseudo-science' of 40k tht they would understand... to a point. And that is all that we're talking about: calculated jumps vs. navigated jumps. People wish to invent reasons that the Tau are different from the Imperium, and to a point it is true... it's just a point that the differentiation between 'thematic armies' would not like to look at the similarities.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 26, 2004 16:11:28 GMT -5
And keep in mind that you said that an astropath was equivalent to a radio, not air traffic control. Astropaths on the ship are both radio/ transponder and Astropaths on the Planet are radio/ warp traffic control. Both work together in managing the narrow warp routes that crisscross the galaxy.
Thought you would. When it comes down to it we have some similar opinions - with the exception of Marine strength, of course! - it is often the way that things are put, i.e. whether talking about generic 'fluff' or about specific representation. Ah marines… Isn't there always one of them. Yeh, but one the whole I like what you, everyone is saying. Well, zholud seems to be a tad annoyed about the stated 'psyker' nature of the Navigators, although this is given 'fluff' credence in the fact that they have to be registered with the adeptus astra telepathica (e.g. Farrer, Crossfire). And, indeed, I have always represented their abilities through 'psyker abilities' (originally psionics, but now 'magic' though I know that sends you a bit twitchy)... He didn’t seem that annoyed in the Navis Nobilite, general thread, well until I went too far… (but when don’t I ) With that as a fairly weird aside, I agree. The Navigator sees the warp both in terms of the 'things' that the EM sensors see, but also on the emotive levels meaning that in many regards that they are akin to empaths (which may or may not be interesting, contested, or whatever). This also relates back to zholud's comments that a Navigator 'feels' the warp and does not specifically recognise it on an abstract basis, although that does not necessarily disclude that they create absract theories to explain their abilities. Yes feel, but navigators can also ‘see’ what a machine can’t, I’m thinking of the ‘warp eye’. This means they have two extra senses over a machine and I think this not only accounts for the navigator superior powers, but start to explain why calculated jumps are just so damn difficult (remember during humanities height in the GAoT, when they had the most advanced machines imaginable, they still had so many problems that things didn’t really take off until the invention of navigators). I would add the caveat that they do not see the entire warp, only that which they understand... or feel... Given. I self-evidently disagree with the fact that machines are not incapable. Indeed, I think that there is sufficient 'science' to suggest that in the 'pseudo-science' of 40k tht they would understand... to a point. And that is all that we're talking about: calculated jumps vs. navigated jumps. People wish to invent reasons that the Tau are different from the Imperium, and to a point it is true... it's just a point that the differentiation between 'thematic armies' would not like to look at the similarities. This seems to be the area that we diverge on, I understand that in the upper area of the warp there is still a bit of reality hanging around, maybe enough for light etc. but I think the machines can’t see the psychic structure of the warp. I do accept that a machine can see the energy release from psyker powers, as arch of lightning for example, but I don’t think they can see the channelling of the power that created said the arc of lighting. I think the machines make a best guess based on the real energies (like light) that the upper levels of the warp give off, but they can’t see what is really happening, for example just as psyker energies build up before an ‘arc of lightning’, so it is with storms and such as they build up in the warp; but just as a machine can’t see the build up of psyker energies before the ‘arc of lightning’, so they can not see the build up of warp storms until the warp storms brake. In other words the machine can not see the emotional powers that drive the warp, and as such severely hamper it predictive ability.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 27, 2004 16:06:32 GMT -5
Astropaths on the ship are both radio/ transponder and Astropaths on the Planet are radio/ warp traffic control. Both work together in managing the narrow warp routes that crisscross the galaxy. I know that you were replying to CELS about this, but again I must repeat that for the moment the AWACS thing makes sense - as indeed it always has - it's just the 'radio/transponder' thing that I find has failed the "suspension of disbelief" roll... <spitt, hiss> Yeh, but one the whole I like what you, everyone is saying. Pardon? Was that 'you/everyone' or something else...? <grin> Not very often. Although I personally model them as utilising psyker abilities, can you not see the problems of stating that they come under the province of the adeptus astra telepathica? Yes feel, but navigators can also ‘see’ what a machine can’t, I’m thinking of the ‘warp eye’. But the warp eye is the source of the sense of 'feel' that the Navigators have with regards to the warp. Giving them yet another ability and then attributing them 'sight' because it is an 'eye' is a tad on the simplistic side... With that said, however, I do actually believe that Navigators by their nature can 'see' more of the warp then machines. I believe that is what I said above... remember during humanities height in the GAoT, when they had the most advanced machines imaginable... <grin> Be careful with such general statements. I personally say that the eldar even in their post-Fall form have 'machines' far in advance of anything that the G/DAoT could produce. But then again I'm biased: the eldar are my favourite race so in some ways I give them the same latitude that GW does with the Imperium and, therefore, previous human societies... they still had so many problems that things didn’t really take off until the invention of navigators). I would agree... but with horrendous amounts of caveats. I'm personally working on the principle that the G/DAoT society pre-Navigators was fairly extensive, but it was the Navigators that integrated them and made it into an 'empire'. Before that it was basically 'regional micro-empires', as it were. ;D Given the way that our 'argubates' go, I feel that it is sometimes important to be very, very specific. In other words the machine can not see the emotional powers that drive the warp, and as such severely hamper it predictive ability. I really do not think that it is as bad as you say... self-evidently the machine can 'model' the warp to an extent (this is the premise of the calculated warp jump as well as, presuambly, the tau 'warp drive') and to do so is required to measure something. This is the 'residual reality' and that is what it makes its determinations on... it does not, however, see the fundamental operation of the warp and, indeed, nor woud it see any 'upwellings' which would be 'voids' in the computation model. Indeed, if you are to rely on the original statement of the canon (WD105 or was it WD127) only the eldar have made the fundamental leap between the connection of psyker abilities and the warp itself... (The statement is cool, but doesn't overtly make that much sense!) Again I repeat: 'machines' see the most superficial layers of the warp, the 'residual reality'. They cannot see the deeper currents, nor even the 'upwellings' from the deeper warp where reality is increasingly fragmented. Yet despite this, calculated warp jumps are not only possible but, on average, fairly predictable at short distances... But a Navigator is preferable even on short journeys for 'safety of mind'... The whole point, however, is that on short journeys (say the subsector) it is economically feasible and reasonable to make 'calculated jumps' along 'stable warp routes' (trade routes). Yes, they're much slower but it allows reasonable prediction and an integrated 'subsector' beyond people who say 'hello' to each other by the Astropathic Network... But beyond the immediate neighbourhood? No. Navigated travel. Thus in general 'calculated jumps' are feasible on the micro-scale and become operational on the subsector level, but as soon as you introduce travel between the subsectors you are moving into the realm of Navigated travel. Yes, it would be possible by calculated warp travel, but ludicrously dangerous when all thigns are considered... ;D This creates a situation whereby Navigated travel is preferred, but not the only means of travel that is 'reasonably safe'. This allows far more interesting stories to be told that are not the normal 'exceptions to exceptions' which must otherwise be required. I therefore submit that the approach that, for the most part, we are both advocating is not exclusive but that it also allows the maximum of storytelling. Narrative, as always, determines the specific outcome of an event but generaly a system of calculated and Navigated travel allows the most interesting and dynamic interpretation of the 40k universe while still remaining in the 'fluff'. Furthermore, the adoption of 4E statements with regards to the 'requirement' of Navigators might be taken historically and present an interesting story arc whereby the 'background noise' of the warp can be used to effectively make calculated travel even more dangerous and create huge economic and social upheavel... Again, it is the story and not specifically the image that is being catered to. The image is muteable by preference, but the story is something that we can all create and the reason that I say that this is not just my interpretation.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 27, 2004 16:15:43 GMT -5
Just a quick question, since reading through this thread is causing an increasing head-ache... Philip, did you mean to ignore the questions that were specifically directed at you (on page 2), or did you just not notice them? PS: Forgive me if Kage has already answered them to a satisfying degree. At the moment, I don't think he has, but I can't really be 100% sure because of the current state of my brain.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 27, 2004 16:45:38 GMT -5
I made a reference to them but didn't feel the need to answer them since, after all, they were not directed at me... Are you sure your okay, CELS? You're being rather... strange of late.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 27, 2004 18:20:34 GMT -5
Just a quick question, since reading through this thread is causing an increasing head-ache... Philip, did you mean to ignore the questions that were specifically directed at you (on page 2), or did you just not notice them? PS: Forgive me if Kage has already answered them to a satisfying degree. At the moment, I don't think he has, but I can't really be 100% sure because of the current state of my brain. Oops, sorry CELS didn’t mean to ignore you, I thought Kage had covered it. Philip...This comment is directed to you especially, since you seem to be the only one arguing for the fluff's absolute necessity of Navigators and Astropaths at the moment. [/li][li] How do you explain the fact that humans travelled the stars before Navigators came along, if one must have a Navigator to travel in the warp? How did they travel the stars without Astropaths, if one must have an Astropath to travel in the warp? Soul Binding did not take place untill post-Heresy, I believe. [/li][li] How do you explain alien warp travel, considering that only the Imperium has Navigators. I believe the fluff specifically says that only humans have Navigators, so you can't argue that the authors merely forgot to mention alien Navigators. Keep in mind that there are several aliens who use some sort of warp travel, and both races with psykers and races that do not have them. I did have more questions, but I can't remember them at the moment. Maybe they'll come back to me.[/quote] First up humans used calculated jumps before the invention of navigators and it was very dangerous. However I think you are curious about how a navigator can make a jump without an Astropath? Well seeing as a navigator needs a psychic signal to lock onto there must have been a G/DAoT equivalent to an Astropath. Ships jump in pairs one single and jumper, and with each jump they swap roles. =Philip’s unofficial fluffy add on=I think during the G/DAoT (this is all unofficial) two specialist types pf Psykers were produced: the Navigators and the Psykers (I always thought it would be fun if Navigators where male and Psykers were female, but that just makes thing a little to complex genetically..) Now as we all know, the child of a Navigator and normal human will be normal and will have lost the Navigator ability. However, I think the child of a Psyker and normal humans will be a carrier of the Psyker genes (ie. half Psyker by DNA but no powers). This didn’t seem a problem back in the G/DAoT as it was assumed they had lost their powers. As the carriers propagated through generations it was inevitable that two carriers from different families would have a child, this child would be a full Psyker. Due to our intolerance of incest it took a while for the problem to show up, and by then there were millions of carriers. So in my little fluff add on, the Navigator gene is always dumped, but the Psyker gene is always passed on. This in my mind this accounts for the various differences between Psykers as there are variations of the Psyker gene: Enhanced (from the G/DAoT) and natural. This gives a selection of Psyker types and powers E-E, E-N (N-E) and N-N. This accounts for the various power levels of Psykers, with E-E being the most powerful and N-N being the weakest. In contemporary 40K, it would be the E-N Psykers that a moulded by the God-Emperor into Astropaths, as the E-E are quite rare among Psykers and will be used as full ‘Psykers’. The unfortunate N-N Psykers (all natural) get consumed by the God-Emperor as they are practically useless and prone to being processed. Puts a different light on the ‘Humans becoming a Psychically aware race’ doesn’t it? The Primarchs were the God-Emperor’s attempt to introduce an even more enhanced Psyker gene (G for God-Emperor) onto a pre-modified DNA, alas it didn’t work out quite as expected. Humans are not Eldar, the scientists of the G/DAoT were not the Slann and the God-Emperor is not God.
Bet you’re sorry you asked now! Anyway, onto the next question about other species; Tau: Calculated jumps. Eldar: Like navigators but don’t need the Psychic beacon. Orks: They don’t care were they end up. Chaos: By the will of the Gods.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 28, 2004 6:43:09 GMT -5
And that's why it is a bit of a fudge for Navigators to be, in the 40k universe at least, a variant form of psyker who are registered with the adeptus astra telepathica (Farrer, Crossfire). Furthermore, although not exclusive the suggestion - the 'spirit' - of the 'fluff' was that it was the "simultenous emergence of psykers" (RoC, StD methinks) across the former 'empire' that was one of the primary reasons for the fall of that civilisation. ( Note: This was originally before the ad hoc bastardisation of the Butlerian Jihad or the Traveller Virus into the 40k universe... but then again it was also in the period where the cutting off of Terra could somehow cause the 'fall' of that civilisation... So take it with a pinch of salt, as always.) While the 'fluff' is explicit (if we are to believe Phillip; I still hold back from paying $55 for the book when most of it is irrelevant to me) that Navigators are a form of psykers and implicit that they are so because of registration with the adeptus astra telepathica (Farrer, Crossfire) I think that we should consider this very carefully. Relegating them as psykers that are understood by the scholastica psykana, and perhaps even 'trained' there, goes against the 'spirit' of Navigators defined. Furthermore it creates a 'glitch' when talking about the independence of the navis nobilite, i.e. they are immune from interference and remain untouchable even by the Inquisition, yet they are a part of the adeptus terra by statement (ibid). No, while I use psyker abilities to mimic their abilities (because it is easy and ironically 'canonical') this is something that we should dwell upon before automatic adoption. It has, at the moment, more problems than the answers it my solve. I'm afraid that I also just don't plain like "Phillip's Fluffy Add-On". Psykers were purportedly extremely rare before the Age of STrife and, indeed, non-existent (other than the Emperor). I go for rare and natural myself, but there we go. Making them a creation of the G/DAoT, for me, is a mistake more so when psyker technologies seem to be one of the few things that the Imperium can hold over that former civilisation even if they don't acknowledge it. Furthermore, it is also not required... the former empire could exist quite readily with the Navigators which increased 'centralisation' and expansion. No, leave the Astropaths and the psykers to the Age of Strife and beyond. It gets worse when you introduce the Primarchs... that brings in a whole new kettle of fish to monkey up the situation. So, not only do I think that it doesn't fit... I just don't like it. And I'm partially ( ) annoyed because I was ignored... <sniff> (And BTW - I really much prefer the horizontal rule as a way of breaking things. Congratulations! I'm now not getting a headache from all the colour...)
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 28, 2004 7:00:01 GMT -5
Ah, your not being ignored either! ;P CELS did raise the very important point that a Navigator couldn’t work without an Astropath, and I used it as an opportunity to cluck in my fluff extra (I don’t rally need that much of an excuse to chuck in a fluff extra, as CELs has found out ;D) So, not only do I think that it doesn't fit... I just don't like it. Now how an earth did I know you where going to say that! I must be ‘naturally’ psychic. On the plus side my fluffy add-on does explain away the lack of Astropaths in a nice package, and dances a merry jig around the whole problem, and as a bonus explains why there was a sudden emergence of Psykers. Its like killing a whole flock of birds with on stone (not that I have anything against birds).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 28, 2004 14:22:05 GMT -5
<grin> Mainly because it was just 'fluffy' enough to be not made up on the spot, but not consistent with the 'fluff' that has been pre-published (see RoC). I don't see how it solves any problems to be honest... but there we go.
Oh, and there is no need to create artificially boosted psykers - something that is not consistent with the 'fluff' - when one can merely draw from science to find an answer: speciation events. Whether there is necessarily any evidence for it in the past is irrelevant, but it offers a reasonable way by which 'psykers' could emerge... The only problem that you have is what forces could have caused this across the worlds other than GW fiant. But then again you're dealing with a level of hand-waving with whatever you're doing.
Again though, despite my signature, there is little evidence to suggest that there was any monkeying around with psyker abilities during the G/DAoT other than the Navigators, and that is only when you redefine their abilities as psychic (a product of the more recent 'fluff').
So let's leave that one alone.
Again, it seems all rather simple. A Navigator is not needed, although many would desire their presence. An Astropath is most definitely not needed, although some might be comforted by their presence. The idea that 'every ship' has one (RT, 4E) seems overtly problematic when you consider the 'shelf-life' of Astropaths in the newer 'fluff' (Abnett, Eisenhorn trilogy) and the logistics of getting all those psykers 'out there'.
There has been no strong argument to define why automatic presence on a ship should be adopted, given the weight of the 'fluff' anyway. With that said, it is reasonable to assume that Imperium-sponsored ships would want them which, if you are to beleive the specifics of the 'fluff', are the dominant ships. <yawn>
Navigators are, once again, not required but desired. This is consistent with the 'fluff' with the exception of, seemingly, the 4E statement which excludes all the older material for, seemingly, no good reason especially when you include earlier material.
That both of the two 'types' are useful, and even in some circumstances necessary, does not mean that they must be present in all circumstances. Referencing the G/DAoT and saying 'travel was dangerous back yonder' doesn't quite work, more so when 'calculated warp jumps' - the reasonable extrapolation of tau travel - is stable and predictable enough.
This seems to be the overly balanced argument.
A shift in the 'background warp disturbance' within the 'storyline' of Anargo is an interesting possibility, though. It would make calculated warp jumps much harder and, potentially, exclude all but the most daring-do. Of course, whether this actually has an impact depends entirely on the relative proportion of non-Navigated travel. If you are to believe the arguments made here and elsewhere, that would be practically no ships so the impact is irrelevant...
Is that interesting? Not overtly, but... well... <sigh>
|
|
|
Post by Sikkukkut on Oct 28, 2004 23:28:47 GMT -5
... [Navigators]they have to be registered with the adeptus astra telepathica (e.g. Farrer, Crossfire). Is that accurate? If you're referring to the briefing session before they board the penance ship (sorry, can't give a page reference right now) then there is mention that they establish a particular Navigator's whereabout through Ad As Tel records. That, however, strikes me as inferring that because taxi company records show a certain person calling a cab on a certain day, clearly all travellers have to register themselves with the cab company. The recap of the breaking of the smuggling ring then goes on to state that the Navigators involved were able to swan off completely free from charges that got their captains and crews executed outright, which seems to back up the idea of Navigators as a state apart. Given that the looser interpretation (that the Navigator's name was mentioned in an Astropathic log or communique in connection with that ship) is equally supported by the book and doesn't clash with existing background the way that forcing Navigators to register with the Ad As Tel does, I'd put that forward as the interpretation that we use. Or is there another spot somewhere in the book that I'm missing?
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 29, 2004 4:58:19 GMT -5
I made a reference to them but didn't feel the need to answer them since, after all, they were not directed at me... Of course. I wasn't complaining about your comments, Kage. Well, I feel ok... It could be the pressure of school, combined with sleep deprivation and the fact that most of my posts are written very quickly, since I'm sharing computers with the other students. Thanks for your concern, anyway I don't know what you mean by 'strange', but then this is very Off-Topic, and not really something that we need to discuss in public... First up humans used calculated jumps before the invention of navigators and it was very dangerous. Could someone try to find out what the fluff says about this, specifically? I believe you or Kage said that "most" ships were lost in the warp. I'm very curious as to whether or not GW actually says that most ships were lost in the warp, or if they just give the impression that it was dangerous. Because 'dangerous' is a very relative term. Oh holy mother of Marneus Calgar, I hate it when people say that If you read a bit of Ork fluff, you'll soon realize that the Orks are way too coordinated for us to assume that they just enter the warp with no concept of where they're going. They do care where they end up, because if they end up in a dead system, there's not much for them to conquer, is there? Space hulks are known to be quite unreliable when it comes to warp travel (although it is an amazing coincidence that Ghazghkull managed to gather so many roks and hulks when attacking Armageddon : , but it's quite obvious that most of the ork ships are quite precise. And what about the other aliens in 40k? Kroot (who learned warp travel from the Orks), and all the minor races mentioned in 4E? Oh, and by the way, I pretty much agree with your last post, Kage
|
|