|
Post by Philip on Oct 19, 2004 13:00:08 GMT -5
In this thread I would like to look at the function of Astropaths in regard to safety and tracking of ships making warp jumps, the communication structures used by Astropaths and how Astropaths fit into the overall infrastructure of the Imperium. As it is possible in the ASP to make a warp jump without taking an Astropath along for the ride, I found myself asking questions about how this would play out, it seems to me that it presents some interesting scenarios: I propose that we look at various scenarios and figure out how the ASP version of 40K deals with these scenarios.I will point out that this thread will cover scenarios that introduce problems not only for the ASP but for all editions of 40K even 4E. The first set of problems mainly affects ASP, however if everything goes 4E’s way (which I’m sure it will not ), then the problems with 4E will become apparent in the later scenarios. It could be that I have missed something (and I am sincerely hoping that is the case). The answers posted here may affect how I view the later scenarios, and I would be the first to admit that this could all very well be a storm in a tea cup on my part! ;D I’m not strongly in favour one way or the other, I just curious about how it all works and may change my mind back and forth at a drop of a hat. I am hoping this thread will be taken in the spirit of discovery rather than me trying to pull down 40K (which you’ll have to trust me is that last thing I want to do!). I just have to know.=Assumptions (1E-4E)=Edits in PinkI have made a few assumptions about the Imperium while mulling over these scenarios, please feel free to correct these assumptions about the Imperium, and Imperial technology if they contradict 40Ks background. - Warp travel is the only form of faster than light travel available to the Imperium.
- Astropaths are the only form of transmittable FTL communication available to the Imperium
- Astropaths have a range of 10LY, and communication is quick: 1 min per ly.
- Astropaths are the only form of communication between ships in the Warp and the material universe.
- An Imperial Sector is 200ly cubed (need confirmation of this (Confirmed by Zholud, thanks ;D)
I also need the actual dimensions of the 40K Galaxy (which I assume is very similar to our Milky Way) in order to workout the figures for the later scenarios. I’ve been posting on Portent and searching the web, but the dimensions seem to be a little variable.
My current working dimensions (NASA) are 30kpc x 300pc with 200 billion stars (ignoring the halo). If anyone has the actual dimensions please let me know =Scenarios= So as to not muddy the waters, I’ll post the scenarios one at a time as each is sorted out in turn. I’ll start of with the least subjective. = Scenario 1: Mayday=
I ship while on a 4LY warp jump from Planet A to Planet B suffers a malfunction in its warp core and drops back into real space halfway along it journey. It is 2LYs from both Planet A and Planet B, and there are no other planets that are closer. The Warp jump of this length can take up to 6 days (1E).=With Astropath=The onboard Astropath sends out a Mayday that is picked up almost immediately (couple of minutes for 2ly?) by surrounding Astropaths. The emergency message is then passed on the nearest Adeptus Mechanicus facility, the AM will organise for the retrieval of the ship. =Without Astropath=If a ship sends out a Mayday using non-Warp (no Astropath) communications, it is going to be at least 2 years (2LY) before the ship’s Mayday is picked up by either Planet A or Planet B. This means any rescue attempt is going to be delayed by at least 2 years. (In order to cater for this eventuality the ship would have to carry enough supplies for at least 2 years) The Captain could consider continuing the journey to Planet B (or A!) using the ships sub-light engines. To make the journey using sub-light engines that can drive a ship to speeds almost as fast as light it is going to take at least 2 years. However if the sub-light engines can only manage a fraction of this, say a hundredth, it will take the ship 200 years to make the journey! (In order to cater for this eventuality the ship would have to carry enough sub-light fuel and supplies for at least a 2 year non-Warp journey.) =Conclusions=A ship without an Astropath can not broadcast an effective Mayday. =Alternatives=Or is there a work around?
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 21, 2004 13:58:18 GMT -5
This just seems like faulty logics to me. Astropaths are useful, therefore all ships must have astropaths? A modification of the earlier argument; "A Norad-like system with astropaths would be useful, therefore all ships must have astropaths"... To me, this sounds like 'airbags are useful, therefore all cars have airbags'. The question of whether or not all ships have astropaths is undeniably intertwined with the question of calculated warp travel, which would let us estimate the number of civil ships within a sector, which would let us judge if there are enough astropaths to have one on each ship. In other words, I'd say we're stuck untill we can answer the first questions But yes, I can definitely see the many advantages of having astropaths around, and not only on ships. Ultimately, I fear that this is just a question of imagery. We have no idea about how many psykers there are per thousand humans, or how many astropaths there are in a thousand psykers brought to Terra. In other words, if we want there to be at least one astropath on each ship in the Imperium, military or not, that is perfectly possible. This means, that we just have to decide on what we would like to see, and it is a matter of taste. The question is; do we resolve this democratically? Kage, it would really help if you made your voice heard here
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Oct 21, 2004 15:14:40 GMT -5
Just jumping in to spoil your day =Assumptions (1E-4E)=I have made a few assumptions while mulling over these scenarios, please feel free to correct these assumptions if they contradict 40Ks background. - Warp travel is the only form of faster than light travel in 40K.
Wrong. Necrons, whose codex is clearly was made with 4E in mind (see its cover), use FTL travel by not-warp means. Also Eldar Webways – are they truly warp based? Not at least in its interior part. [/li][li]Astropaths are the only form of FTL communication in 40K. [/quote] Again not, Imperial pony express™ is just an example of opposite. It is still FTL ;D [/li][li]Astropaths have a range of 10LY, and communication is quick: 1 min per ly. [/quote] Range depends, while ‘quickness depends on how you measure info transferred and what exactly is transferred. Like your e-mail headers, which you usually don’t see… [/li][li]Astropaths are the only form of communication between ships in the Warp and the material universe. [/quote] For Imperium – yes… at least to the most part [/li][li]An Imperial Sector is 200ly cubed (need confirmation of this) [/quote] I can confirm that they are roughly (very roughly) cubes with 200 l.y. sides. This comes from Battlefleet Gothic and other sources.
|
|
|
Post by Destecado on Oct 21, 2004 17:47:04 GMT -5
I'll be the first to admit that I haven't made it all the way through the new 4th edition fluff, but are you telling me that it says you need an astropath in order to travel using the warp.
Although this may be something that the navigators would like most people to beleive, I find it to pattently absurd. What you are proposing is a total monopoly over FTL travel much like the spacing guild from Frank Herberts Dune.
While I admit that having a navigator hooked up the ship may make the trip through the warp less risky, and also alllow a ship to deviate from its original flight plan.
I see a calculated jump is point to point using the warp as an intemediary. A ship utilizing a calculated jump can't change from the program plotted into the navigation computer. This may be one of the reasons why ships become lost...unfoseen obstructions or currents in the warp throwing off the calculations, etc.
A Navigator has a little more of a free hand to stear the ship throughthe warp. He/she can avoid warp storms or go around rip currents to still arrive at the pre-calculated position
There are to constraints to having a navigator on every ship.
1. Navigators don't come cheap.
Do you think that every small operator would be able to afford the services of a navigator.
2. Supply vs. Demand
If you think of the total number of ships vs the total number of navigators available, the numbers just don't add up. There would be a shortage of navigators, so force with going out of business, people might instead descide to take the risk of a calculated jump.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 23, 2004 10:14:21 GMT -5
This just seems like faulty logics to me. Astropaths are useful, therefore all ships must have astropaths? A modification of the earlier argument; "A Norad-like system with astropaths would be useful, therefore all ships must have astropaths"... No, what you just said is faultly logic and bares no relation to what I have said in this thread. At the moment I asking about one very specific scenario.
Just jumping in to spoil your day You’re welcome Wrong. Necrons, whose codex is clearly was made with 4E in mind (see its cover), use FTL travel by not-warp means. Also Eldar Webways – are they truly warp based? Not at least in its interior part. Thank for that, but I was thinking of Imperial ships an technology (hence Atropaths). Again not, Imperial pony express™ is just an example of opposite. It is still FTL ;D Good point, but I don’t think it will help with the ‘Mayday’ scenario I outlined. Range depends, while ‘quickness depends on how you measure info transferred and what exactly is transferred. Like your e-mail headers, which you usually don’t see… Suffice to say, Astropaths are quick. For Imperium – yes… at least to the most part Oh, now you have my undivided attention, is there another way to communicate? Please still the beans… I can confirm that they are roughly (very roughly) cubes with 200 l.y. sides. This comes from Battlefleet Gothic and other sources. Thanks for that.
I'll be the first to admit that I haven't made it all the way through the new 4th edition fluff, but are you telling me that it says you need an astropath in order to travel using the warp. Yes, to maintain communication. Although this may be something that the navigators would like most people to beleive, I find it to pattently absurd. What you are proposing is a total monopoly over FTL travel much like the spacing guild from Frank Herberts Dune. Can we get back on topic - what I am proposing is looking at a specific scenario ‘Mayday’ and figuring how to resolve it. If you know of a way to make an effective mayday call without an Astropath in the scenario I have outlined, I am more than happy to listen. At the moment I am swayed neither one way or the other.
Does anyone have any on topic ideas on the scenario ‘Mayday’ I put forward?
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 23, 2004 14:43:34 GMT -5
How constructive... Yes, your conclusion is correct. Without astropaths, a ship can not broadcast an effective Mayday. If there was a way to broadcast an effective Mayday without astropaths, that would mean that there are alternative forms of long-distance interstellar communication in the Imperium, which there are not. Next question.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 23, 2004 18:04:24 GMT -5
Yes, your conclusion is correct. Without astropaths, a ship can not broadcast an effective Mayday. If there was a way to broadcast an effective Mayday without astropaths, that would mean that there are alternative forms of long-distance interstellar communication in the Imperium, which there are not. Next question. Not such faulty logic after all, eh? The next question I asked was whether there was a workaround - in the ASP version of 40K what would happen to a ship that breaks down many light years from the nearest Planet?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 24, 2004 11:23:36 GMT -5
I would once again like to remind people that we are trying to create something which is consistent with all the editions. That we question everything rather than merely conforming to a single publications interpretation. As it is possible in the ASP to make a warp jump without taking an Astropath along for the ride... It has always been possible to do this. The 'fluff' is quite clear on this. The 'fluff' has a tendency of reinforcing the image at the expense of consistency, but that is an old point that we are more than familiar with. I would suggest, as always, we do not automatically assume the validity of this statement from 4E merely because it says so in the book. That way lies the comments that ASP is an inaccurate representation of the 40k 'fluff' when, rather, it draws together the various editions and creates something that is more consistent and detailed. In some ways it would be just as correct to say that 4E is merely an aspected version of ASP... Warp travel is the only form of faster than light travel available to the Imperium. That would be consistent with the 'fluff', yes. Astropaths are the only form of transmittable FTL communication available to the Imperium There are also servomats which form the basis of the Holy Altar system but they are, self-evidently, also Astropaths. It is furthermore reasonable to suggest that non-Astropathic primary psykers might have the ability to transmit over interstellar distances... Indeed, the fact that they can perform clairsentient activities over interstellar distances might give further credence to this. Astropaths have a range of 10LY, and communication is quick: 1 min per ly. The range stated in the 'fluff' is actualy around 20 light years. I personally utilise the 1 minute per light year value, but rapidly point out that it should also be subjected to the same kind of 'problems' (i.e. time variation) as warp travel. Astropaths are the only form of communication between ships in the Warp and the material universe. This assumes that you want your astropath to start 'transmitting' - or even 'receiving' - while in the warp. The 'fluff' generally suggests that this is a bad idea, though older 'fluff' has the utilisation of 'psychic tracing' within the warp. So it's an interpretation and favouritism thing. Personally I would think that it is possible, but generally you wouldn't want the psyker to be taking an active role (i.e. receiver only). This might not necessarily be based in anything other than a 'grain of truth' that has been compounded by superstition... basically as it always works in the 40k universe. An Imperial Sector is 200ly cubed All you had to do is read WD139/140... I also need the actual dimensions of the 40K Galaxy... The figures are fairly consistent throughout the literature, it just depends on what they include. Generally speaking the Milky Way is a 'disc' over approximately 100,000 light years in diameter. (Sometimes people incude the Halo Zone which expands this by another 100,000 light years.) The maximum 'thickness' of the galaxy is defined by the galactic (central) bulge, which is around 15,000 light years in diameter. Sol is around 27,000 light years from this central point where the disc is appoximately (I get hazy here) 3,000 light years in thickness. This is consistent with 30 kpc (just in case someone missed that one, that is 'kilo-parsec', where a parsec is around 3.26 light years)... they just tend to round it up to the nearest nice figure. 30pc (97.8 light years or around 100 light years! ), which I presume you're referring to the 'thickness' of the galaxy, does appear way off, however. I ship while on a 4LY warp jump from Planet A to Planet B suffers a malfunction in its warp core and drops back into real space halfway along it journey. Care should be taken not to assume that just because you 'lose' the function of your warp drive that you drop into real space. I know that this has been suggested with reference to the Geller Field but it is way off a reasoned consideration of the 'fluff'. (E.g. it becomes automatic protection against misjump...) It is 2LYs from both Planet A and Planet B, and there are no other planets that are closer. The Warp jump of this length can take up to 6 days (1E). Not sure where you're getting this figure from. A 1 light year jump takes 2-6 minutes in the warp and from 43 minutes to 4.5 hours in the 'matterium'. For 5 light years this is 7-30 minutes and 3.5 hours to 1 day (respectively in warp and 'matterium' time)... I personally interpret these times to be navigated times, not calculated jump times. The onboard Astropath sends out a Mayday that is picked up almost immediately (couple of minutes for 2ly?) by surrounding Astropaths. That seems reasonable... again it would depend on the local warp conditions... The emergency message is then passed on the nearest Adeptus Mechanicus facility, the AM will organise for the retrieval of the ship. Depends on the size of the vessel... it may also be possible for repairs to be made locally. It all really depends on what type of ship it is when it comes down to it. A ship without an Astropath can not broadcast an effective Mayday. Yep. But using this fact to automatically make a ship carry an Astropath is not going to work however... but are you telling me that it says you need an astropath in order to travel using the warp. I believe Phillip says that this is the specific statement of 4E and, therefore, uncontravertable in terms of 'fluff' accuracy. I see a calculated jump is point to point using the warp as an intemediary... [snipped] Yep, that is basically how I see it and, indeed, how it has been proposed through discussion on this forum. Do you think that every small operator would be able to afford the services of a navigator. Nope.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 24, 2004 13:06:28 GMT -5
It has always been possible to do this. The 'fluff' is quite clear on this. The 'fluff' has a tendency of reinforcing the image at the expense of consistency, but that is an old point that we are more than familiar with. I would suggest, as always, we do not automatically assume the validity of this statement from 4E merely because it says so in the book. That way lies the comments that ASP is an inaccurate representation of the 40k 'fluff' when, rather, it draws together the various editions and creates something that is more consistent and detailed. In some ways it would be just as correct to say that 4E is merely an aspected version of ASP... Err what? Ever since 1E Astropaths have been required. The range stated in the 'fluff' is actualy around 20 light years. I used 1E for this figure, where did you find the 20LY figure? I personally utilise the 1 minute per light year value, but rapidly point out that it should also be subjected to the same kind of 'problems' (i.e. time variation) as warp travel. I used your figure as it seemed good ;P This assumes that you want your astropath to start 'transmitting' - or even 'receiving' - while in the warp. The 'fluff' generally suggests that this is a bad idea, though older 'fluff' has the utilisation of 'psychic tracing' within the warp. So it's an interpretation and favouritism thing. Personally I would think that it is possible, but generally you wouldn't want the psyker to be taking an active role (i.e. receiver only). This might not necessarily be based in anything other than a 'grain of truth' that has been compounded by superstition... basically as it always works in the 40k universe. I thought that was the whole point of the ‘soul binding’, so that an Astropath could communicate while in the warp. All you had to do is read WD139/140... Thanks for that, dug 139 out of the archives, but 140 seems to have gone walk about The figures are fairly consistent throughout the literature, it just depends on what they include. Generally speaking the Milky Way is a 'disc' over approximately 100,000 light years in diameter. (Sometimes people incude the Halo Zone which expands this by another 100,000 light years.) The maximum 'thickness' of the galaxy is defined by the galactic (central) bulge, which is around 15,000 light years in diameter. Sol is around 27,000 light years from this central point where the disc is appoximately (I get hazy here) 3,000 light years in thickness. This is consistent with 30 kpc (just in case someone missed that one, that is 'kilo-parsec', where a parsec is around 3.26 light years)... they just tend to round it up to the nearest nice figure. 30pc (97.8 light years or around 100 light years! ), which I presume you're referring to the 'thickness' of the galaxy, does appear way off, however. Yep that was a error, should have been 300pc, I’ve corrected it. Care should be taken not to assume that just because you 'lose' the function of your warp drive that you drop into real space. I know that this has been suggested with reference to the Geller Field but it is way off a reasoned consideration of the 'fluff'. (E.g. it becomes automatic protection against misjump...) Hmm….any more on that? Not sure where you're getting this figure from. A 1 light year jump takes 2-6 minutes in the warp and from 43 minutes to 4.5 hours in the 'matterium'. For 5 light years this is 7-30 minutes and 3.5 hours to 1 day (respectively in warp and 'matterium' time)... I personally interpret these times to be navigated times, not calculated jump times. Again I used 1E, but these figure seem just as good. That seems reasonable... again it would depend on the local warp conditions...[/quote It would still be pretty quick compared to radio waves. Depends on the size of the vessel... it may also be possible for repairs to be made locally. It all really depends on what type of ship it is when it comes down to it. Point taken, though the upshot is that someone would retrieve the ship. Yep. But using this fact to automatically make a ship carry an Astropath is not going to work however... No effective mayday - so what would happen to a ship that breaks down many light years from the nearest Planet? I believe Phillip says that this is the specific statement of 4E and, therefore, uncontravertable in terms of 'fluff' accuracy. That bit of fluff has been part of 40K since 1E, it is one of the corner stones of 40K fluff (fluff brick) that the rest of the fluff builds on.
|
|
|
Post by CELS on Oct 24, 2004 14:25:18 GMT -5
Not such faulty logic after all, eh? I'm not saying everything you wrote was illogical, Philip. You do have your moments Perhaps I wasn't being clear then, when I wrote that a ship could not broadcast an effective mayday without an Astropath. There are no workarounds, no alternatives, as I see it. If a ship breaks down many light years from help, without an astropath, the crew is doomed, unless their ship has enough equipment for them to survive in their current star system. In other words, they're stuck. Game over. Care should be taken not to assume that just because you 'lose' the function of your warp drive that you drop into real space. I know that this has been suggested with reference to the Geller Field but it is way off a reasoned consideration of the 'fluff'. (E.g. it becomes automatic protection against misjump...) A very good point, and one that should be taken into consideration when pondering if it is really that important for ships to have astropaths when travelling into the warp. Yes, you can use an astropath to broadcast mayday, but if something goes wrong in the warp... is it likely that you will actually get the chance to do so? In other words, some might argue that it would be good 'insurance' to bring an Astropath along for the ride, but if a ship is only taken off course very rarely, it is quite likely that the less wealthy ship-owners will skip the extra cost of an Astropath. I believe the message is distorted over longer distances as well. Worth remembering. Even if you already did Last but not least...Gentlemen, please name your sources. Saying that something has always been the case, or that it is written in "1E" or whatever, isn't really THAT helpful. It would be much better, if you wrote, for example the name of the book / white dwarf issue that you're arguing from. And... it would be absolutely perfect if you actually posted the quote here. For example... "A ship cannot travel in the warp without an astropath." (White Dwarf #139, page 22) Philip was very good at supplying quotes when discussing the changes from 4E. I know you can do it
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 24, 2004 15:30:48 GMT -5
If a ship breaks down many light years from help, without an astropath, the crew is doomed... Yup. ...but if something goes wrong in the warp... is it likely that you will actually get the chance to do so? Depends on what happens in the warp. In the above example, if they were not able to return to the matterium then they're going to be in real trouble. The only hope is to - somehow - navigate to a point where the matterium and warp space overlap and get out that way, but such 'warp gates' (as they used to be called in 1E) are very rare... ...it is quite likely that the less wealthy ship-owners will skip the extra cost of an Astropath. That and as with navigators they are rare... Also, one must not forget how most people regard Astropaths (and indeed Navigators). Yeah, they might be 'sanctioned' by the Imperium authorities but that still doesn't detract from what they are: witches, psykers... Mutants that were one of the reasons for the Age of Strife (although they of course wouldn't know about that little ditty!). I believe the message is distorted over longer distances as well. Worth remembering. Even if you already did A fair enough point. Would it not be reasonable to suggest that the 20 light year limit takes this into account? Gentlemen, please name your sources. That's only good when you've got the sources to hand... but when all of your information is in a different country, then you're really up the creek without the paddle if this is a defined requirement! For example... "A ship cannot travel in the warp without an astropath." (White Dwarf #139, page 22) Except that it doesn't say that in WD139. Indeed, no mention of Astropaths is made in connection with Warp navigation in that publication IIRC.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 24, 2004 16:32:58 GMT -5
Perhaps I wasn't being clear then, when I wrote that a ship could not broadcast an effective mayday without an Astropath. There are no workarounds, no alternatives, as I see it. If a ship breaks down many light years from help, without an astropath, the crew is doomed, unless their ship has enough equipment for them to survive in their current star system. In other words, they're stuck. Game over. OK. A very good point, and one that should be taken into consideration when pondering if it is really that important for ships to have astropaths when travelling into the warp. Yes, you can use an astropath to broadcast mayday, but if something goes wrong in the warp... is it likely that you will actually get the chance to do so? Astropaths can broadcast from within the warp, the soul binding they go through makes the resilient (a normal psyker can’t do this, as they would be too vulnerable). In other words, some might argue that it would be good 'insurance' to bring an Astropath along for the ride, but if a ship is only taken off course very rarely, it is quite likely that the less wealthy ship-owners will skip the extra cost of an Astropath. If that was the only reason, maybe. I believe the message is distorted over longer distances as well. Worth remembering. Even if you already did So 20ly is the max? Last but not least...Gentlemen, please name your sources. Saying that something has always been the case, or that it is written in "1E" or whatever, isn't really THAT helpful. It would be much better, if you wrote, for example the name of the book / white dwarf issue that you're arguing from. In my posts in this thread where I have put the source as 1E it is referring to the Rogue Trader 40K rule book. And... it would be absolutely perfect if you actually posted the quote here. For example... "A ship cannot travel in the warp without an astropath." (White Dwarf #139, page 22) My 139 doesn’t have this in it, page 22 has stuff about ‘Super Manoeuvrable Spaceships’ and ‘Counters’
Depends on what happens in the warp. In the above example, if they were not able to return to the matterium then they're going to be in real trouble. The only hope is to - somehow - navigate to a point where the matterium and warp space overlap and get out that way, but such 'warp gates' (as they used to be called in 1E) are very rare... Do you have any sources for that? (I know you don’t have access to your archives at the moment, but do you could point me in the rough direction I would appreciate it ) That and as with navigators they are rare... Let clarify that: they are rare in the ASP not in 40K. Ever since 1E RT there has been shed loads of Astropaths and Navigators. Also, one must not forget how most people regard Astropaths (and indeed Navigators). Yeah, they might be 'sanctioned' by the Imperium authorities but that still doesn't detract from what they are: witches, psykers... Mutants that were one of the reasons for the Age of Strife (although they of course wouldn't know about that little ditty!). Yah, but they are also important, high status individuals who are on the right side and happen to be very, very useful. People of the Imperium depend on them, and these mutants make the Imperium possible, so this more than make up for the fact they are a ‘bit weird’. Besides that people are scared of unsanctioned Psykers who are dangerous. Whereas Astropaths and Navigators are not perceived as dangerous and so wouldn’t generate the same fear (and neither is particularly prone to possession). A fair enough point. Would it not be reasonable to suggest that the 20 light year limit takes this into account? How about; 10ly = perfect, 15ly = bit dodge may have to try again, 20ly = will take a few goes.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Oct 24, 2004 18:44:49 GMT -5
Astropaths can broadcast from within the warp, the soul binding they go through makes the resilient (a normal psyker can’t do this, as they would be too vulnerable). Care should be taken that we don't throw out such sweeping generalisations. While individually the various 'facts' in the above statement might be taken of as 'true', it is very easy to take this information and make some horrendousy shallow assumptions. From Waston ( Inquisitor/Draco) were understand that it is possible for an Astropath - Moma Parsheen (sp.) - to operate their psychic abilities. Latitude may be created here by noting that it was an entirely passive ability, e.g. the sensing of a 'homing signal' placed on Carnellian. No instances of an Astropath actually transmitting while in the warp springs to mind. Indeed, we are left only with the descriptions in Farseer about the attention that Darke's nascent powers attracted... Again, though, it behooves a considered approach to make it clear that Darke, while extremely powerful (alpha plus, more than likely), he remained untrained. The statement that 'normal pyskers' cannot broadcast from the warp is partially correct, but the 'fluff' is as ever dominated by the imagery and is not entirely consistent. As per CELS' request, one might consider the following on the Soul Binding: However, this must be balanced against the following consideration of what Astropaths actually are: Please note that Astropaths are 'weak' and that the primary astropath is capable of resisting daemonic influence without aid, unlike the Astropath (secondary psyker). Thus while matterium-immaterium transmissions may be the 'exclusive' property of the Astropath, precognitive visions, clairsentient phenomenon can cross huge distances of space... In other words, the ole brain must be engaged and simple little statements are often misleading if they are not taken into consideration with the wider "balance" of the 'fluff'. If that was the only reason, maybe. One presumes that this is a reference to the reminder of potential 'AWAC' and 'transponder' function of Astropaths? (Something that I see operating for Imperium 'state' vessels, or those required to travel to certain 'areas', but beyond that a physical transponder is more than adequate.) Yes... and a look at the 'fluff' reminds me of the correct value: My 139 doesn’t have this in it, page 22 has stuff about ‘Super Manoeuvrable Spaceships’ and ‘Counters’ I would imagine that it was not a specific example, Phillip. That was my I had the ' ' smilie after my reply to that bit... Do you have any sources for that? Early 'fluff' on Space Hulks, probably from the Space Hulk game. All to do with the transition of the hulk to the real universe... I also seem to remember that there was some reference to the economic importance of 'warp gates' since they removed the requirement to travel from the far distances of the warp zone. Let clarify that: they are rare in the ASP not in 40K. Ever since 1E RT there has been shed loads of Astropaths and Navigators. I would suggest that this conforms to your interpretation of the universe. While there are not insignificant amounts of either of these they are not as common as you suggest. Hell, even from a purely logistical standpoint and getting the darned Astropaths to the various worlds. Furthermore, the earlier novels are relatively clear that they are considered a valuable commodity... Admittedly the later 'fluff' goes into the whole "burn out" because of the use of their powers... That's, erm, borrowed from somewhere but for the life of me I cannot remember where at the moment. People of the Imperium depend on them, and these mutants make the Imperium possible... They 'kind of' make the Imperium possible by giving the state (the Imperium and the adeptus terra) the strategic edge over others... Besides that people are scared of unsanctioned Psykers who are dangerous. People are scared of sanctioned psykers as well... Again, it is far too easy to paint too wide a brush-stroke.
|
|
|
Post by RascalLeader on Oct 24, 2004 19:52:55 GMT -5
I can’t remember reading that Astropaths are needed on warp ships. The fluff even verges on them. not needed a Navigator. However the idea that they should be on a large percentage of ships as some sort of auxiliary communication system is a bit extravagant. For one I don’t think there can be that many Astropaths operating in the Imperium. Not every world has one; so what does that say about their sort of numbers? The Blackships that go around finding all these psychic deviants, bringing back hundreds of thousands of them to Earth. And what do they do with them? Apart from a very small percentage they are all eaten by the Emperor. I can imagine some military warship have them, after all the Navy need to keep track of their fleets. Even then I can see them only stationed on the flagship or taskforce leader, but civilian Traders? No. Aside from the numbers which we could endlessly debate about, there is another factor we need to consider. The Imperium owns all the Astropaths; they train then and soul bind them to the emperor. They are an insanely valuable resource, and they are the key to holding the Imperium together. So does it make sense that there is a supply of them traded off to merchants? No. They are just too valuable and the Imperium needs them.
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Oct 24, 2004 21:29:13 GMT -5
Care should be taken that we don't throw out such sweeping generalisations. While individually the various 'facts' in the above statement might be taken of as 'true', it is very easy to take this information and make some horrendousy shallow assumptions. Astropaths all have the Astrotelepathy ability (1E RT page 148) and can be used from within the warp and has a range of 50ly. While it doesn’t say specifically that this ability can be used from within the warp, I did notice that the ‘Psychic Beacon’ does specifically state that it can’t be used from within the warp – it would seem to suggest that if the Astrotelepathy ability couldn’t be used from within the warp the designer would have said so. The statement that 'normal pyskers' cannot broadcast from the warp is partially correct, but the 'fluff' is as ever dominated by the imagery and is not entirely consistent. As per CELS' request, one might consider the following on the Soul Binding: However, this must be balanced against the following consideration of what Astropaths actually are: Please note that Astropaths are 'weak' and that the primary astropath is capable of resisting daemonic influence without aid, unlike the Astropath (secondary psyker). Thus while matterium-immaterium transmissions may be the 'exclusive' property of the Astropath, precognitive visions, clairsentient phenomenon can cross huge distances of space... While the Astropath may start out as a ‘weak’ psyker they are changed by the Emperor meddling during the soul binding, where he mixes in a little of his vast power with their own and strengthens them. Therefore an Astropath is not a ‘weak’ Psyker. In other words, the ole brain must be engaged and simple little statements are often misleading if they are not taken into consideration with the wider "balance" of the 'fluff'. ‘Engaging the ole brain’ seems to be a catch phase of yours, and seem to you use it to imply other aren’t thinking about what they are saying; I sincerely hope that is not your intention? One presumes that this is a reference to the reminder of potential 'AWAC' and 'transponder' function of Astropaths? (Something that I see operating for Imperium 'state' vessels, or those required to travel to certain 'areas', but beyond that a physical transponder is more than adequate.) Seeing as all travel within the Imperium is controlled by the Imperium a system of ‘warp traffic control’ would seem reasonable. Early 'fluff' on Space Hulks, probably from the Space Hulk game. All to do with the transition of the hulk to the real universe... I also seem to remember that there was some reference to the economic importance of 'warp gates' since they removed the requirement to travel from the far distances of the warp zone. Gives me a reason to dust off and dig through my Space Hulk stuff I would suggest that this conforms to your interpretation of the universe. Yes is does, but it also conforms accurately to the fluff. While there are not insignificant amounts of either of these they are not as common as you suggest. Hell, even from a purely logistical standpoint and getting the darned Astropaths to the various worlds. Furthermore, the earlier novels are relatively clear that they are considered a valuable commodity... Yes they are valuable but that value is derived from their importance not from their rarity, and yes there are a lot of them. IE RT/ Page 147/ ‘The Adeptus Astra Telepathica’ An Astropath is an Astro-telepath, an individual capable of communicating with others of his kind over vast interstellar distances. In the Age of the Imperium, where worlds are light-years apart, this is the only practical means of communication.For this reason the network of Astropaths is very important to the Imperium, and every spacecraft, research station, outpost, etc, has its own Astropath. Even small planets need hundreds of these useful servants, while large worlds may have thousands and Earth itself is home to tens of thousands.They are everywhere, millions of them, even from the very beginning. They 'kind of' make the Imperium possible by giving the state (the Imperium and the adeptus terra) the strategic edge over others... They make the Imperium possible by allowing ‘proper’ organised warp travel. As a note on navigators: there are lots of them ever since 1E RT. 1E RT/ p132/ ‘The Human Navigator’ Normally it would be impossible to maintain such a vast area of Space as a single political entity. What makes it possible to do so is the existence of human navigators.Seems navigators are very important to the Imperium. Calculated jumps may be up to 4ly (1ERTp131), navigators make it possible to do 5000ly jumps (WD139p16). WD139/ p17/ ‘The Merchant Fleets’ The combined merchant fleets comprise almost 90% of all interstellar spacecraft in the Imperium.Virtually all trade is run by the Imperium, there a very few ‘privately owned’ interstellar ships; WD139/ p17/ ‘Civil Fleets’ …there are several thousand ships registered to individuals, families and trading cartels. …. One of the largest is that of the Navigator family Redondo, numbering 47 registered interstellar ships.I would guess that most of these privately owned ships belong to Navigators, as they are not controlled by the Imperium and can run their own affairs; 1E RT/ p150/ ‘Navigators’ There is no Imperial control over navigators, and many pursue civilian careers as traders.The only others who can jump around the Imperium unhindered would be the Rogue Traders and the Inquisition (for undercover work). Looking at all the fluff it seems that the Imperium controls almost everything, and that ‘calculated jumps’ are old technology (I image they still keep this ability in case of an emergency, like something happen to the navigator the interstellar ship can’t limp to the nearest Imperium controlled planet). Calculated jumps are just ‘dangerous’ considering all the high speed navigator jumps and may cause tailbacks on busy routes (much like an old lady driving a car at 20mph in the fast lane on the motor way) ;D Seems 4E hasn’t changed much in regard to Astropaths.
|
|