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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 6:47:34 GMT -5
Once again, please remember that this is a synthesis of all the editions, not just 1E. I have said this frequently. And, again as mentioned numerous times before, it is not usually about the specific statement but how that relates to the other concepts and features of the 40k universe. The pulling of quotes out of ones books is what I personally refer to as "librarianship". Actually dealing with the 'fluff' in overall terms is far more interesting... (Even though at CELS' request I did do this above.) Astropaths all have the Astrotelepathy ability (1E RT page 148) and can be used from within the warp and has a range of 50ly. For someone who is frequently saying that ASP "isn't 40k" because it doesn't conform to the latest rewrite... Well... I did notice that the ‘Psychic Beacon’ does specifically state that it can’t be used from within the warp Are we really surprised here when you consider the nature of a psychic beacon. it would seem to suggest that if the Astrotelepathy ability couldn’t be used from within the warp the designer would have said so. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" and vice versa. It might be problematic to attribute such forethought to the writer merely because they didn't specifically mention that you cannot do a thing... I believe there are specific 'slang' words that cover this type of activity in the wargame, but RP'ers often refer to the people who engage in such activity as "rules lawyers". Kind of... admittedly it can be great fun when in a game they find a loophole that doesn't violate the spririt of the game. Therefore an Astropath is not a ‘weak’ Psyker. One could quite readily argue when taken in context that the strength translates to their ability to 'resist daemons', which is a concept of will and not specifically of ability. Your arguments elsewhere would kind of suggest that you would argue that Soul Binding actually increases the grade of the psyker in question, which would be taking liberties, rather than giving them the ability that Primary psykers are born with...? With that said, the statement that Astropaths are the only ones that can send and receive messages over such distances does give them a unique ability... the question is whether this necessarily translates to 'power'. ‘Engaging the ole brain’ seems to be a catch phase of yours, and seem to you use it to imply other aren’t thinking about what they are saying; I sincerely hope that is not your intention? Nope... Its one of those generic comments made to everyone, including myself. (E.g. I didn't engage the 'old noodle with reference to numbers of navigators/astropaths, but there we go.) If you don't think about the ramifications of the changes that you are trying to make with regards to the 'fluff', concentrating solely on the image or the statement (in absence of consideration), this is not engaging the 'ole brain. We all do it, more so when we think that a particularly powerful image is involved... But still. Think about things. Everyone. Shame is it is pretty hard to make generic statements and react to something in a 'standard' way when peoples' interpretations are involved. I know that I find myself bristling myself. Same thing happened when a martial arts student of mine take a huge swipe at me with a specific kick. I stopped them and took them up on 'appropriate control', thinking about what might happen if he were to do the same thing with, say, a child. He took this poorly, believing that with my 'grade' I should be easily able to handle such kicks, which is true and he was correct in that assumption. What he didn't understand is that you have to react to not only what you see but the also the 'past events' which have brought them to this point... That my comments were 'generic' rather than necessarily specific. Seeing as all travel within the Imperium is controlled by the Imperium a system of ‘warp traffic control’ would seem reasonable. And to be honest I agree with you to an extent. However, I'm going to assume ("ass out of 'u' and 'me'"... ) that when you say 'warp traffic control' your referring to something similar to the real world air traffic control and, therefore, something that requires every ship to have a Navigator and every ship to have an Astropath... which is basically your interpretation and the "interpretation" of the latest edition...? At this point I would suggest that things were not taken that far given the balance of the 'fluff'. And, also, to consider the specific ramifications over the image. Are such extensive requirements actually needed? At this point the answer would seem to be a semi-firm 'no'. Not only is it not strictly necessary to track the position of a ship in the warp - if that is entirely possible from a 'fixed location' (i.e. system) or whether it is possible to report a correct position (given the nature of the warp), but a ship precipitating from the warp to the immaterium is already transmitting it's location. As it stands a ship already files a 'flight log' with the Imperium. This can be taken either as the Charter (which is generally fixed except hereditary free) or as a 'temporary charter' which has been introduced as another level of control over an (arguably expanded) civil fleet. If they wanted to check up on it the Imperium authorities already know where most ships are going to be, moreso if they dont have a Navigator... they're going to be on the fairly predictable 'warp paths' between systems, and if the started out at time 'a' to arrive at time 'c', at time 'b' they are going to be a given distance between point 'A' and point 'C' (as it were). (Questions arise, obviously depending on whether warp time and time experienced by the matterium are independent or not; I've always preferred independent but there we go...) Gives me a reason to dust off and dig through my Space Hulk stuff Fairly sure that it was around in that type of literature. GW realised that without 'power' to the original hulks and without necessary action by entities capable of working warp drives if there was power, the concept of space hulks didn't quite work, i.e. they just couldn't appear. Furthermore, one would like to imagine (though again I would doubt such foresight or 'finesse') that they considered the huge distances involved in the getting to the Warp Zone and, therefore, created the 'warp gate' as a means by which one could 'hop' closer into the system. Some of the new 'fluff' specifically links 'warp density' (which was the original limit of warp travel) to the presence of gravity. You will note that this was being discussed in Meta. If this truly were the case, however, then technically there would be a heck of a lot of 'natural warp gates', e.g. relating to LaGrange Points in the system. Yes is does, but it also conforms accurately to the fluff. Some of it, yes. The tempered suggestion elsewhere that doesn't go stamping on the fingers of other editions is that the statement applies to ships of the Imperium (read: the state).
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 6:50:14 GMT -5
Yes they are valuable but that value is derived from their importance not from their rarity, and yes there are a lot of them. Ultimately it depends on the number of warp capable ships in the Imperium and whether you take the 'limited' view of them (i.e. Military c. 80,000; Merchant c. 2,000,000; Civil 50... ) Those aren't huge numbers of Astropaths or Navigators, which is why I mentioned not engaging the 'ole brain further up. So it says it in the new 'fluff'. I'm afraid "Whoopty doo" springs to mind because of one huge, damning point. "Warp trave requires a Navigator [e.g. it is not possible without one] and all ships must have an Astropath" or so sayeth the 'new 'fluff'' (which is horrendously expensive; was going to buy it but at $55-60!!!!) But what about the G/DAoT before Navigators and Astropaths? Was it a crap shoot? If it was, and you also take the other canonical stance that ships have to km-long monstrosities, how did they manage to extend beyond even the Imperium? (Although that really depends on whether you see the Imperium map as extending over the entire galaxy, which is not correct even with the 4E map... ) Again, I would think that it is reasonable to suggest that all (state) ships of the Imperium must have a Navigator and all have an Astropath. The reasons for this are obvious, but primarily related to strategic advantage. This includes both Military and Merchant vessels. I would also strongly suggest that the Civil Fleet does not necessarily count towards this generic statement... In the balance of the 'fluff' neither a Navigator or an Astropath are required (the latter being an invention of 4E, apparently). With the previous 'fluff' warp travel is both possible and used... But it once again has its risks. When it comes down to it, nothing has really changed only the emphasis that one wishes to place upon the 'state' vessels... And GW has always had a somewhat Imperium-centric approach to their 'fluff', increasingly moving it away from a dynamic universe within which RP is possible to a wargaming universe where people say "Shut up and tell me how many dice to roll!" In the Age of the Imperium, where worlds are light-years apart, this is the only practical means of communication. As zholud rightly pointed out, ships are also a valid and practicable form of FTL transport. But you got me on the numbers, as mentioned above... They are everywhere, millions of them, even from the very beginning. It's amazing what 15 years of not looking at a book will do... Admittedly the 'sense' of the 'fluff' changed over the editions, but there we go. They make the Imperium possible by allowing ‘proper’ organised warp travel. Pardon? 1E RT/ p132/ ‘The Human Navigator’ Normally it would be impossible to maintain such a vast area of Space as a single political entity. What makes it possible to do so is the existence of human navigators. But hang on, they have the Astropaths! (Counter argument is that they didn't have them in the G/DAoT but they did, eventually, have Navigators...) Calculated jumps may be up to 4ly (1ERTp131), navigators make it possible to do 5000ly jumps (WD139p16). 5 light years if you use the 'fluff' from the same source... again, this has never been argued. Virtually all trade is run by the Imperium, there a very few ‘privately owned’ interstellar ships Which gives another estimate for shipping... and the estimate for 'civil' traffic is low, for me... But then again the Imperium is, technically, going to control all trade regardless of the origin of the ship. Again, this has not been questioned just the specific contribution. An 'ever world is a castle' approach creates an incredibly boring universe. And that is something that you will find very difficult to argue against. there are several thousand ships registered to individuals, families and trading cartels. Over the Imperium? Over the segmentum? One of the largest is that of the Navigator family Redondo, numbering 47 registered interstellar ships. [/color] Which, as stated elsewhere, would be a fantastic number of ships to be owned by a single concern. Again, balance of 'fluff' and what is being said. The only others who can jump around the Imperium unhindered would be the Rogue Traders and the Inquisition (for undercover work). You might have been misreading stuff if that is what you've been getting. Looking at all the fluff it seems that the Imperium controls almost everything Funny, that's what everyone has been saying. The question is how you keep the universe interesting and dynamic in that situation. At present the situation is interesting and dynamic, flexibility being drawn out of the 'fluff' for interest. Calculated jumps are just ‘dangerous’ considering all the high speed navigator jumps and may cause tailbacks on busy routes (much like an old lady driving a car at 20mph in the fast lane on the motor way) ;D Except the constraints of physical travel do not apply. Seems 4E hasn’t changed much in regard to Astropaths. On that your kinda right... your interpretation is a bit skewed, for me, but you were definitely right about the numbers of Astropaths. Of course, unless the rest of the 'fluff' disagrees with you... That's kind of the point, though: not taking a single edition and taking it as gospel, but rather taking all editions. Yes, even 4E... Oh yes, and disassociating oneself from the commercial aspects or, rather, considering them in context with the rest of the material. That's the key, though: all of the material. Thanks for the reminder about the RT rulebook and Astropaths. It has been over a decade-and-a-half since I read that book... I'm somewhat more impressed that I remember so much, rather than I forget the specifics of the odd sentence!
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Post by Philip on Oct 25, 2004 7:54:29 GMT -5
1E-4E fluff accurate would be;
All Imperial ships must have an Astropath/ Navigator onboard.
Imperial ships make up 99+% of all interstellar ships that travel within the Imperium.
The remainder are privately owned ships (civil fleets) and are owned by; Navigator families (Specialist Merchants) Very rich people (equivalent of a private jet plane) Both of these would have an Astropath and Navigator on board.
All traffic is controlled and monitored by millions of Astropaths (warp traffic control/ Norad/ AWAC all rolled into one).
Looking at the whole lot, it seems that while a World may be self governing, everything in between in run by the Imperium.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 8:53:15 GMT -5
1E-4E fluff accurate would be Kind of. All Imperial ships must have an Astropath/ Navigator onboard. Seemingly now that the quote from 1E has been regurgitated. This is, however, not true given some of the novels. But then again you have image reinforcing mechanics to the detriment of the overall universe... but we see this in other areas. Imperial ships make up 99+% of all interstellar ships that travel within the Imperium. That I've never bought since it is, in many regards, highly tedious. Of course, I expand the some of the Merchant aspects into the Civil, mainly because otherwise you have to constantly make exceptions to the exceptions. Very rich people (equivalent of a private jet plane) You have got to be kidding... it is far, far more expensive than a private jet! Both of these would have an Astropath and Navigator on board. Oooh... you've used italics. It is possible that if they can afford the ship then they can afford the services of a Navigator, yes. But then again this would only be consistent with the idea that Navigators are not common as muck... If Navigators are now common as muck, then fine. A tad on the tedious side since it removes the complexity of the universe... although dumbing down the universe is where things have been heading for some time, at least based upon the discussions with people who didn't have the hiatus that I did. All traffic is controlled and monitored by millions of Astropaths (warp traffic control/ Norad/ AWAC all rolled into one). Except it doesn't quite work that way... again, could you trust it? What is the purpose. Why bother going to the trouble... This is the conflicting imagery of the 40k universe... On one hand people claim that it is original, then on the other hand they go and do something like this to make it more 'accessible' to some people, yet don't actually get jiggy with the practicalities. Looking at the whole lot, it seems that while a World may be self governing, everything in between in run by the Imperium. Did you know that I find the use of colour mildly annoying? In fact, when everyone uses it. It borders on 'Net-equivalency of patronising in the same way that in many official organisations you are not allowed to use red ink because it is "shouting". Perhaps you could temper its use? It might only be me but, heck, everyone has a tendency of pointing out when I do something that is mildly irritating... As the quote, I didn't think that was in question. The Imperium always 'controls' things. But what you have is an "interest factor" situation coming in. If the Imperium controls every little feature in every little way that you tend to argue, the universe would be a very boring place. Every time that you want something interesting to happen you have to constantly make exceptions, and then make exceptions to the exceptions. Keeping a more dynamic setup from the star is far more interesting, more so when it is a part of the 'fluff'. Furthermore, more analogies can be made with real world phenomenon for subsequent extrapolation. But if Navigators are not controlled by the Imperium then how is their presence controlling shipping...? Also, presence in no way defines control. While the AWACS situation has been proposed years ago - in fact, I did so myself and was shouted down for it on Portent as it being not 'fluffy' - it does not need an Astropath aboard the vessel being present. Indeed, later versions of the 'fluff' (excepting Imperial vessels) have been shown to not have an Astropath, e.g. Eye of Terror novel. One of those things that is always represented - yes, it is an image thing but we try to consider all avenues but not solely the image - as being useful for communications with the Imperium but otherwise... nada. But in terms of 'warp traffic control'? What is the point? You've got flight logs. Those that deviate are considered 'pirates'. They already travel, for the most part, down pre-established routes which are a by-product of the warp itself, so there is no need to shove them down into small 'tunnels' (the irony in the real world is that doing this dramatically increases the chances of two aerospatial vehicles crashing!). The only point is to 'control' those vessels that do not require to move down pre-established routes... but, heck, those or Navigated vessels. But wait a second, Navigated travel is more organised... Oh, hang on, but the whole point of them is to take you further, faster and more safely. But then again they're all going along established routes anyway... Oh, but that's why they need the 'warp traffic control'? But the routes are estabished... Yes, but they're established now by the 'warp traffic control'. So what's the purpose of the Navigator? To make warp travel safer, faster and to go further... Hang on, but if you believe some interpretations most of it is only going on in the short range anyway... What's the point in the Navigator? They make warp travel organised, safe and you can travel further... But they're not needed for short jumps. Yes, but it says that they are needed and that without them the Imperium would collapse? Yes, we know that but now we're jugging resolutions... A ramble? Yes, but that's kind of the point in itself. <sigh> If only I had more energy to actually build up the project then spend time argubating...
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Post by Philip on Oct 25, 2004 9:50:40 GMT -5
Did you know that I find the use of colour mildly annoying? In fact, when everyone uses it. It borders on 'Net-equivalency of patronising in the same way that in many official organisations you are not allowed to use red ink because it is "shouting". Perhaps you could temper its use? It might only be me but, heck, everyone has a tendency of pointing out when I do something that is mildly irritating... No we don’t, I have to bite my tongue often I included colour to break up the post as it looks like a sea of white, but if it bothers you I can miss it out and save it for titles etc. But in terms of 'warp traffic control'? What is the point? You've got flight logs. Those that deviate are considered 'pirates'. They already travel, for the most part, down pre-established routes which are a by-product of the warp itself, so there is no need to shove them down into small 'tunnels' (the irony in the real world is that doing this dramatically increases the chances of two aerospatial vehicles crashing!). The only point is to 'control' those vessels that do not require to move down pre-established routes... but, heck, those or Navigated vessels. But wait a second, Navigated travel is more organised... Oh, hang on, but the whole point of them is to take you further, faster and more safely. But then again they're all going along established routes anyway... Oh, but that's why they need the 'warp traffic control'? But the routes are estabished... Yes, but they're established now by the 'warp traffic control'. So what's the purpose of the Navigator? To make warp travel safer, faster and to go further... Hang on, but if you believe some interpretations most of it is only going on in the short range anyway... What's the point in the Navigator? They make warp travel organised, safe and you can travel further... But they're not needed for short jumps. Yes, but it says that they are needed and that without them the Imperium would collapse? Yes, we know that but now we're jugging resolutions... A ramble? Yes, but that's kind of the point in itself. That is erm…*bites tongue* I think a comparison with modern air travel is a good one. Navigator = Pilot Calculated jump = hmm, auto pilot? Astropath = Radio and transponder. Air routes are established and well defined, but planes still have pilots, and weather can change things. Much like warp travel. As for air traffic control, I think it is a good thing to have, and I feel better about stepping onto a plane knowing it exists. I also have a hunch that is important, and because of it there are less crashes. As for the tracking side (Norad), imagine is an unidentified aircraft (warp ship) without a radio or transponder (no Astropath) tried to enter America’s airspace during a time of war. The words ‘intercept’ and ‘shoot down’ spring to mind.
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Post by CELS on Oct 25, 2004 11:07:53 GMT -5
A fair enough point. Would it not be reasonable to suggest that the 20 light year limit takes this into account? Purely speculation as to what the author had in mind. Obviously, you can either interpret this as a maximum distance whatsoever (I.e. messages are distorted up to 20 LY, and are absolutely useless on distances over 20 LY) or as a maximum distance for reliable communication (I.e. messages are distorted when the distance is 20+ LY and have an actual maximum range of 40 LY) Personally, I vote for the former. That's only good when you've got the sources to hand... but when all of your information is in a different country, then you're really up the creek without the paddle if this is a defined requirement! It's not as much as a requirement as it is a fantastic advantage. On one hand, you have Kage. Now, Kage is very much an 'expert' on 40k fluff, and it has earned him the cheesy title of 'fluff-god' on Portent. Unfortunately, Kage has not read through all the fluff lately. He says that it's been over a decade since he read some of it. On the other hand, you have Philip. Philip, it seems, does not have the same grasp of 40k fluff (no offence), but does have the advantage of being able to quote the actual written letter. The human memory is very constructive, and though Kage knows a whole lot about the fluff, he can't actually cite the words by heart. The meaning of the fluff is constructed in his memory (I've studied this stuff for a little while, as you may remember). Human memory is hardly 100% reliable, so Philip's quotes weigh rather heavily. In other words, I'm not demanding anything, but by actually posting direct quotes, we take this discussion to a new level, we make it more constructive (as opposed to arguing over who has the most reliable memory) and we remain much more objective. It is the truth that the 4E rulebook actually says that astropaths are needed for warp travel. On page 122 or 123, I can't remember which. Objective truth. It is not the objective truth that the imagery of the later editions make it seem as if astropaths are rather rare. It's just my opinion, and after reading thousands of pages of fluff and fiction by GW and Black Library, I must admit that I'm not 100% sure. It's just a 'feeling' I have accumulated. I don't know where my point was supposed to be... I think this just turned into a ramble ;D Except that it doesn't say that in WD139. You are probably right about that, Kage. It was just an example, pulled from thin air. And though I apologise for the misunderstanding, I must say that I find it highly amusing that both you and Philip actually checked it out ;D EDIT- It turns out that Kage got it after all. Ah well I was just proving a point. You can't really argue with facts like that. What you can argue about, is whether or not the fluff contradicts itself on this point and whether or not it makes sense. For example In my posts in this thread where I have put the source as 1E it is referring to the Rogue Trader 40K rule book. If it's not too much to ask, I would be happy if you could actually call it the 1E rulebook. If you just write 1E, it is easy to interpret that as Rogue Trader-era, which could be anything from Realms of Chaos to White Dwarf #139. Please? My 139 doesn’t have this in it, page 22 has stuff about ‘Super Manoeuvrable Spaceships’ and ‘Counters’ *snickers* Whereas Astropaths and Navigators are not perceived as dangerous and so wouldn’t generate the same fear (and neither is particularly prone to possession). Not the same fear as an unsanctioned psyker, no, but would people really think; "These are useful to the Imperium, so I don't mind them" ? I don't think so. In the novels Crossfire and Legacy, I seem to remember a clear disdain of Navigators. I also seem to remember that Space Marines don't like them much. Ratlings and ogryns are not dangerous like unsanctioned psykers, but still there are many who hate them. Why? Because they're different. Impure. Mutants. On top of that, astropaths and navigators have psychic powers and can be called witches, like Kage said. I don't feel that you quite get the lack of tolerance of abhumans in the Imperium, Philip How about; 10ly = perfect, 15ly = bit dodge may have to try again, 20ly = will take a few goes. It's not only a matter of having to try again, of course. The message can be heavily distorted, and while it may appear to be interpreted correctly, there can be a lot of subtle changes. Astropaths aren't computers, so you won't get 'Error. Press R to retry' I think the Imperium might have different rules for safe distances. For example, messages sent over 5 LY are considered relatively reliable, whilst messages sent over 15 LY are considered somewhat unreliable. Thus while matterium-immaterium transmissions may be the 'exclusive' property of the Astropath, precognitive visions, clairsentient phenomenon can cross huge distances of space... Indeed. I also seem to remember that the Emperor communicated telepathically with some of his Primarchs (or was it just Magnus? My constructive memory fails me ) long before he actually found them. As none of the Primarchs rivalled the Emperor in terms of psychic powers, this means that alpha plus level psykers have a good chance of interstellar FTL communication. Doubly so when you consider the distance of which the Emperor communicated with Magnus. This confirms my suspicion, as written above. 20 LY is the absolute limit, normally. Hell, even from a purely logistical standpoint and getting the darned Astropaths to the various worlds. That argument weighs heavily, in my opinion, together with the fact that you have to train billions of astropaths on Terra in order for this to work. And it's also a logistical nightmare to get the darned Astropaths to Terra in the first place, if they are so common all over the Imperium (in other words, if there are so many of them that they can't all come from the systems close to Terra) Furthermore, the earlier novels are relatively clear that they are considered a valuable commodity... If you could just point us to the specific novels, Kage, it would increase your reliability beyond words
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Post by CELS on Oct 25, 2004 11:48:18 GMT -5
IE RT/ Page 147/ ‘The Adeptus Astra Telepathica’ An Astropath is an Astro-telepath, an individual capable of communicating with others of his kind over vast interstellar distances. In the Age of the Imperium, where worlds are light-years apart, this is the only practical means of communication.For this reason the network of Astropaths is very important to the Imperium, and every spacecraft, research station, outpost, etc, has its own Astropath. Even small planets need hundreds of these useful servants, while large worlds may have thousands and Earth itself is home to tens of thousands.They are everywhere, millions of them, even from the very beginning. Thanks Philip. Quotes like this are very helpful for this discussion!! Unfortunately, I don't agree with your comment (shown in white) Now, large worlds may have thousands of astropaths. If we apply this to large hiveworlds, that means that there are relatively few astropaths. If you also take into account that most astropaths are probably employed by the Imperium itself, and its many semi-independent organisations (You probably wouldn't see the Arbites sharing astropaths with the Administratum, the Mechanicus and the Astartes), that means that the civilians probably have very few astropaths. This means that only the wealthy would afford them, and THAT means that a lot of the less wealthy ship-owners may not afford astropaths for their ships. That is, if astropaths are not required by the Imperium. And at the moment, the ASP assumes that they are not. The pulling of quotes out of ones books is what I personally refer to as "librarianship". Actually dealing with the 'fluff' in overall terms is far more interesting... I definitely agree with you there, Kage, but I feel that it is important that we don't lose track of the written word of GW and Black Library, and just focus on the 'feel' that we have accumulated by reading heaps and heaps of fluff and fiction over the years. I think a comparison with modern air travel is a good one. Navigator = Pilot Calculated jump = hmm, auto pilot? Astropath = Radio and transponder. Air routes are established and well defined, but planes still have pilots, and weather can change things. Much like warp travel. I agree so far. I'm not following you on the hunches. As for the safety of stepping onboard a plane with air traffic control... a cynical ship-owner won't reduce his income because it will make his crew feel better. And keep in mind that you said that an astropath was equivalent to a radio, not air traffic control. What's your point? At first glance, it seems that your argument is 'Norad is useful, therefore it must exist', but you've already convinced me that this is not your point. Please explain where you're going with this, because I'm not following. And keep in mind that you can still identify and communicate with ships that have entered the system with physical signals. Of course, if you suddenly need to call for reinforcements from another system to stop an incoming ship, they'll never make it in time. But they probably won't if you have an astropath to detect incoming ships either. Philip...This comment is directed to you especially, since you seem to be the only one arguing for the fluff's absolute necessity of Navigators and Astropaths at the moment. [/li][li] How do you explain the fact that humans travelled the stars before Navigators came along, if one must have a Navigator to travel in the warp? How did they travel the stars without Astropaths, if one must have an Astropath to travel in the warp? Soul Binding did not take place untill post-Heresy, I believe. [/li][li] How do you explain alien warp travel, considering that only the Imperium has Navigators. I believe the fluff specifically says that only humans have Navigators, so you can't argue that the authors merely forgot to mention alien Navigators. Keep in mind that there are several aliens who use some sort of warp travel, and both races with psykers and races that do not have them. I did have more questions, but I can't remember them at the moment. Maybe they'll come back to me. Oh, and here's a general reminder, not directed at anyone in particular; Be nice
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 18:57:09 GMT -5
I included colour to break up the post as it looks like a sea of white, but if it bothers you I can miss it out and save it for titles etc. As I said, it was a personal thing. Since I have a great deal of difficulty in seeing colour in the first place I generally dislike having to concentrate on it merely because somone has included it... Frightful headaches are induced which, when coupled with the nature of these, erm, discussions it just tends to compound and grow disportionately. That is erm…*bites tongue* That is what your discussion ultimately appears to be, though. I rambled since it is sometimes difficult to bring in all the arguments... It wasn't meant to be insulting, merely confusing, since it incorporates argumes that I have seen over the yeas in various locations (primarily Portent, but also EO). And that was the point that I was trying to make. It would, of course, be much simpler to lay down the law and say that Navigators were or were not needed. But I like discussion and, for the most part, will take the most interesting and reasoned approach. I think a comparison with modern air travel is a good one. Damn. I don't. Navigator = Pilot Calculated jump = hmm, auto pilot? Astropath = Radio and transponder. Yes, those would be good analogies if they were, well, good analogies. A Navigator could be construed as a 'pilot' except the question here is whether s/he is strictly required. And a 'calculated jump' is a great analogy for an autopilot, though one has to question the associated concepts of programming, etc., but yes it works. But unlike a plane the whole point is whether the ship can not only 'fly', but also 'take off' and 'land'. And, yes, an astropath does work as a radio... It's whether they work as a 'transponder' is the question. Again I question the necessity of this. AWACS, yes. Transponder, no... or not necessarily. Air routes are established and well defined, but planes still have pilots, and weather can change things. Yes weather can change things. That's the point about the 'automted pilot'... but that's also the danger of the calculated jump. That has not been specifically questioned (although your original interpretation/numbers are). Indeed, it is an accepted part... what is not presumed is that the weather is always bad enough that you need a 'pilot'. And that's again where the analogy breaks down. Although it does seem to serve your purpose/preference, true. Not quite. It's a chicken and egg scenario. Did the warp route come first (i.e. 'stability', 'safety', etc.) or did the 'pathfinder' (ship) come first? And, again, remember that flight routes significantly increase the danger to each vessel... So no, not much like warp travel, or at least necessarily so. Your ideas are interesting, Phillip, but the way and the extent to which you argue them is sometimes... problematic. As for air traffic control, I think it is a good thing to have, and I feel better about stepping onto a plane knowing it exists. <grin> And so do I. But I'd much rather they didn't restrict flights to relatively small volumes and thereby significantly increasing the chance of an in-air collision. Heck, what numbers are we talking about over our 8,000,000 cubic light years of sector? Warpships are around 80, which means we've got around 720 merchant ships. If we go by GWs lovely little image, each of these beggers is huge but in astronomical terms still quite small. Oh yes, Civil Fleet. I'm not sure what to do with that. I prefer a mobile 'free trade' system by subsector, since it is interesting. But the 'fluff' is quite boring in the decription of the Merchant Fleet... <yawn> Say that it is still large number... more than the likely 10 or 20 that I will assume (see above about definition of 'assume' ) that Phillip would advocate. Still only 820 ships. That's one ship every 9,756 cubic light years. Of course, we limit that volume to 6 subsectors, or 25,120 light years or one ship per 31 light years (or thereabouts). Again, though, they're not scattered over everywhere... they're on trade routes which, technically, they don't need because they're Navigators. And so you up the chance of 'collission', which again you are back to the real world. Of course, then you've got being "near the airport". Except that it is apparenty hard to predict the exact precipitation point... But after that you're in the matterium and, yes, you're a long way from the 'mainworld' (likely) but does that mean you need Astropaths? Again, not strictly. Once again, cool idea... but it doesn't quite seem to be working and still doesn't address some of the fundamental issues. Cool, though, and with some potential... But more agreement needs to be made upon the nature of navigators, astropaths and, indeed, warp travel. Heck, even the size of the respective fleets has reared its ugly head again... I also have a hunch that is important, and because of it there are less crashes. I really doubt that on the astronomical scale crashes are going to be that important when you consider, well, the scale and the nature of the warp zone, accuracy of precipitation, etc. In-system 'traffic control' is also going to be fairly superfluous except when you get closer to 'hot spots' (i.e. worlds). Of course, this is also working with the 'warp route' model in which the point of precipitation is fairly predictable. Astropathic communication is upped when that is not true (i.e. Navigated), but then we're back to the old problems again... As for the tracking side (Norad), imagine is an unidentified aircraft (warp ship) without a radio or transponder (no Astropath) tried to enter America’s airspace during a time of war. Now imagine that they've got several years to do this. As always it's swings and roundabouts, here... I'm wary of making 'decisions' at this juncture even though it would appear that the PPLs are against you, Phillip. Again, I find your ideas intriguing but am waiting for an argument that does not reply on itself for validity (although you do have some 'fluff' quotes). Hmmn, that's not exactly what I'm meaning to say, but at the moment the argument is predicated around 'it would be useful therefore it must be so'. It's not as much as a requirement as it is a fantastic advantage. [rest snipped] "And your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries!" Incidentally, I do actually read up on the 'fluff' when something inspires me to do so... unfortunately I have to rely on boot-legged copies of everything. Once again I do not believe that for my purposes it is worth paying GW money for the wargame books and WD, though I will pay for the other stuff! Unfortunately, Kage has not read through all the fluff lately. You promise to get me a transcription of the new 'fluff' and I'll read it. Make me pay GW for it and I'll spit in your eye and make you walk the plank, land lubber!
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 25, 2004 18:58:02 GMT -5
he can't actually cite the words by heart. Some of it I can... I just find it incredibly sad that despite desire I've managed to remember so much twoddle! It is the truth that the 4E rulebook actually says that astropaths are needed for warp travel. On page 122 or 123, I can't remember which. Objective truth. The problem is that I have yet to see an 'objective truth' in any piece of GW 'fluff' because of the very nature of the writing. It is not meant to be represented as such. This can be seen in the RoC books which were described by many as being incontrovertable because of their "god perspective". It's just a 'feeling' I have accumulated. One has to wonder about the thousands of psykers being sacrificed to the Emperor and the thousands that are being churned out as Astropaths. A place of anguish, pain and suffering if ever there was one... Hello Chaos! I will, however, accept that people tend to 'like' (read: tolerate) having an Astropath on board. But I would also imagine that there are degrees of 'contracts' and types of 'astropaths' that are dependent on the customers needs... Who wants a "Mind fragger" on your ship all the time sending every little bit of information over to the Imperium... (Obvious answer is if you're not a criminal then you've got nothing to worry about. But I'm not a criminal and I wouldn't want someone reading my mind!) EDIT- It turns out that Kage got it after all. Ah well Pllllltttttthhhhhh! I was just proving a point. You can't really argue with facts like that. Actually, yes you can. You can question whether they are 'appropriate' or not when you consider the other assumptions being made. For example, both the AWACs and transponder ideas are cool. I think the first is appropriate and the second is not... (And I would still be leary, more so in the 'canonical universe' than not, of letting a pysker use their abilities while I was in the warp... ) If you just write 1E, it is easy to interpret that as Rogue Trader-era, which could be anything from Realms of Chaos to White Dwarf #139. Please? Actually, technically speaking the RT book is 1Ea and the material that begin to be printed from around WD105 (ish) onwards was 1Eb... I think. Indeed. I also seem to remember that the Emperor communicated telepathically with some of his Primarchs... Whichever, it means that people are likely going to say, "Well, yes, but that's the Emperor/whomever. Of course they can transmit over astronomical distances!" That argument weighs heavily, in my opinion, together with the fact that you have to train billions of astropaths on Terra in order for this to work. And it's also a logistical nightmare to get the darned Astropaths to Terra in the first place, if they are so common all over the Imperium... Yes, it is a doozy. Wait until the 'fluff' begins to talk about regional training facilities... If you could just point us to the specific novels, Kage, it would increase your reliability beyond words The fact that 'reliability' is becoming an issue seems to indicate that my recent 'on hold' decisions were probaby the right way to go... <sigh> Inquisitor for one. This means that only the wealthy would afford them, and THAT means that a lot of the less wealthy ship-owners may not afford astropaths for their ships. To be fair Phillip did take the standard route - and quite reasonable - to say that only the wealthy would afford ships. (For me they would have to be horrendously wealthy and, if you are to take the obvious canonical approach, one of around 10 or 20 individuals in the entire sector.) In his argument Navigators and Astropaths are so horrendously common that they are cheap... Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if Astropaths were kept 'on ice' just in case the main one burned out mid journey! <-- Tongue-in-cheek smilie! That is, if astropaths are not required by the Imperium. And at the moment, the ASP assumes that they are not. Although it also assumes that astropaths are aboard all Imperium ships. I definitely agree with you there, Kage, but I feel that it is important that we don't lose track of the written word of GW and Black Library... And that one not forget the inherent bias of all written words. But they probably won't if you have an astropath to detect incoming ships either. Perhaps the argument is that they can only detect incoming ships because of the astropath? How do you explain the fact that humans travelled the stars before Navigators came along, if one must have a Navigator to travel in the warp? <Devils Advocate> Most ships that travelled in the G/DAoT before the creation of Astropaths were lost. Navigators were created to prevent this 'interstellar crap shoot'. Or, alternatively, they just used "Tau travel" (arguably calculated jumps). How did they travel the stars without Astropaths, if one must have an Astropath to travel in the warp? Carefully? Soul Binding did not take place untill post-Heresy, I believe. It is only mentioned after the 'ascension' to the Golden Throne. Of course, that doesn't mean that (conveniently) it didn't exist before. Of course, that is a fairly irrelevant point before the Emperor revealed himself.
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Post by CELS on Oct 26, 2004 7:15:46 GMT -5
"And your mother was a hampster and your father smells of elderberries!" Incidentally, I do actually read up on the 'fluff' when something inspires me to do so... unfortunately I have to rely on boot-legged copies of everything. Once again I do not believe that for my purposes it is worth paying GW money for the wargame books and WD, though I will pay for the other stuff! *grin* In case you misunderstood me, I was not trying to insult you, nor was I abusing you for not staying updated by buying GW's publications My point was, you have to take the consequences of your actions. You don't want to read White Dwarf? Cool. But GW does write a lot of fluff in White Dwarf, and most of the 3rd Edition-era fluff comes from there. Very kind of you to actually read the transcripts that people work to send you
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Post by CELS on Oct 26, 2004 7:39:19 GMT -5
Some of it I can... I just find it incredibly sad that despite desire I've managed to remember so much twoddle! LoL! Very admirable indeed. The only 'fluff' I know by heart, is part of the Codex Astartes, by Roboute Guiliman. "They shall be pure of heart," etc. I just find it incredibly sad that, as a kid, I put effort into memorizing it On the whole, I find that very little fluff is meant to be 'subjective', and that most of it is supposed to be written in an near-omniscient perspective. People who claim that the fluff in C:Ultramarines is written in the voice of an Imperial Adept can expect nothing but rolling eyes from me. I would suggest that the presence of the Emperor helps in the fight against Chaos. Starting a chaos cult on earth would be like trying to start a fire on Mount Everest, in a storm. Only possible in theory. I think you misunderstand me, because I explained this further up. You can't argue with the fact that GW wrote this and that. For example, it is an objective truth (or fact) that according to 4E, a ship must have an astropath to travel the warp. You can still question if that is appropriate, and if it makes sense, and then ignore this fact, but it's still a fact. In other words, they updated the fluff from the RT rulebook post WD105-ish? Let's forget about 'people' for a while. And still, the point remains; Even if the Emperor has a much greater range than normal, that still means that other powerful psykers can communicate across the stars, without Soul Binding. This would really help in explaining how the Orks maintain communication within their empires. I'm not following you, I'm afraid Brilliant. I actually have that novel, though I don't have it with me. He did say that they were equivalent to private jet planes though. I would suggest that such ships are so expensive to build and maintain that you'd want to make a profit. Not necessarily the Civil fleet then, I presume. Do you mean that monitor stations with astropaths can only detect incoming ships because the incoming ships have astropaths? If so, I would definitely disagree. Hey, wait a minute. Isn't it possible for monitor stations to detect incoming space hulks a long time before they actually arrive? Isn't this normally done by 'sensing' the ripple in the warp, caused by the space hulks, and partially using the Emperor's Tarot to divine the future? Were most ships lost, or many ships lost? My impression is the latter, and the difference is rather huge. Was that a joke?
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 9:18:10 GMT -5
*grin* In case you misunderstood me, I was not trying to insult you, nor was I abusing you for not staying updated by buying GW's publications Oh yes, I knew. You were slightly in error, but it was all tongue-in-cheek hence the somewhat obvious reply with Monty Python... I felt relatively secure in that since it seems to cross the language barriers fairly easily, more so the with the films such as Monty Python and the Holy Grail! ;D You don't want to read White Dwarf? Cool. Do me a favour, CELS: let's not lecture and condescend, or at least sound like you're doing it. That probably wasn't your attention, but when you're all twitchy anyway (that's me being twitchy) it does sound like that. Getting hold of a WD is quite hard for me, both in terms of justifying capital expenditure of such a magnitude on something which is 80% worthless. and also laying my hands on them. Would you pay $10 for a TKD lesson where you sat down for 80% of the time? (Erm, a normal, not particularly exciting lesson that wasn't being taught by a grandmaster but rather the instructor that you normally have. Same kind of thing for me and WD.) I just find it incredibly sad that, as a kid, I put effort into memorizing it If it helps, I also find it very sad... but exercising the memory is always a good thing! On the whole, I find that very little fluff is meant to be 'subjective', and that most of it is supposed to be written in an near-omniscient perspective. Pardon? Are you 100% sure that is what you meant to say? Off the top of my head I can only think of a few pieces that are meant to be 'objective' (i.e. information on interstellar shipping), but the majority of the 'fluff' either shows the bias of GW (i.e. humano- or Imperium-centric), the bias of the writers, or the bias of the writers' characters... Some of it sounds like it is objective, but ultimately is presented in such a way as to present a specific 'image'. But apologies... I only have Codex: Space Marines, Space Wolves and Dark Angels on the adeptus astartes front and those are rife with subjective pieces (i.e. "colour text"). But this is OffT and something which is based on personal preference, including just what you are willing to accept as the uncontrovertable truth and what you are willing to accept (e.g. linked to "suspension of disbelief"). I would suggest that the presence of the Emperor helps in the fight against Chaos. Starting a chaos cult on earth would be like trying to start a fire on Mount Everest, in a storm. Only possible in theory. One thing you have to understand is that I tend to throw up arguments for and against things fairly randomly, finding it is useful to be able to argue against what you believe. In my representation (Kage-verse, for simplicity) I would have to agree: Terra is dedicated to the Imperial faith and sanctified to both that (which is fairly meaningless) but also the Emperor Himself, thereby making the manifestation of other gods problematic. (I'm of course still working on the division between the Imperial Cult and the 'actualy reality' of the Star Child.) For example, it is an objective truth (or fact) that according to 4E, a ship must have an astropath to travel the warp. You can still question if that is appropriate, and if it makes sense, and then ignore this fact, but it's still a fact. Then we're getting into just the way we're saying things. It is objective insofar that it is a statement, but it is a part of the changes being made to the 'fluff' which is more a case of subjective backdrop... Just because GW says something is so doesn't automatically make it so when you think about it. For example, the idea that the Imperium is able to exist as described is highly debateable: it works because they say it does. However, that is also something that has passed by 'suspend disbelief roll' so I work to justify just how it would work... this often requires consistent information which may separate from the image, because an image is always subjectively interpreted. This is why I find the RPG useful. While a 'subjective' abstraction of reality, it at least gives numbers to the un-numbered which can then be altered in context to provide something that is consistent with the universe without necessarily having to make multiple "suspend disbelief rolls". ( Note: The "suspend disbelief roll" is something from an old gaming group. If we just didn't think that something was possible, or correct given the context of description, we had "failed our suspend disbelief roll".) Again, wildly OffT... In other words, they updated the fluff from the RT rulebook post WD105-ish? Well, the rules were not updated until the release of Dark Millennium box set, IIRC. That is they were published outside of the WD (thereby making GW more cash). But the changes being made were fairly obvious from an earlier point, as were the alterations in the 'fluff'. This is why 3E hasn't been 3E for sometime, but more 3Eb. Inquisitor seems to be a part of 3Eb, the point at which colour text becomes fossilised in game mechanics and which then subsequently are compounded in both of these later on. Even if the Emperor has a much greater range than normal, that still means that other powerful psykers can communicate across the stars, without Soul Binding. While it would seem a natural outgrowth of the division between Primary and Secondary psykers, as well as the distinction between the grades, it would be readily argued by some - and it is difficult to separate discussion from the oh-so-obvious counter-arguments that would be raised - that it specifically states that only Astropaths are capable of interstellar communication.
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 9:20:21 GMT -5
This would really help in explaining how the Orks maintain communication within their empires. Oh-so-obvious counterargument: Ah yes, but that's orks. He did say that they were equivalent to private jet planes though. I would suggest that such ships are so expensive to build and maintain that you'd want to make a profit. Since 40k is unlikely ever to make reasoned guesses at this type of thing, I can only indicate that the cost of 'production' of the old Soleus (see Factory) was a not-insignificant percentage (I forget which; see Imperium and 'economy') of the Anargan gross world product (GWP). Even the 'smallest economically viable ship' is horrendously expensive. ('Suspend disbelief roll' made, but the dice just feel off the table.) Not necessarily the Civil fleet then, I presume. Perhaps. It really does depend on their purpose which then feeds back into the 'argubate' itself. The archaic "AWACS" argument (see Portent, ca. 3 years ago) make sense since psykers (primary) have been shown to be able to sense the coming of a warp-ship (Watson, Inquisitor) and it seems reasonable to extend this to Astropaths (Rennie, Execution Hour). This is an active ability based in the matterium and, therefore, would seem reasonable to assume that it follows along the precedent set by the psychic beacon (see Phillip's quotes, above). The extension to warp-based 'transponders' is slightly more spurious. First of all you've got the fact that psykers using their abilities are generally mistrusted (cf. numerous novels), as well as detectable when using their abilities in significant levels, of which warp/matterium threshold 'breaking' would seem a part(Abnett, Maleus). Then you've got the fact that using 'poweful' abilities lights a beacon within the ship (King, Farseer), which may simply be the nature of Darke's likely status as alpha-plus but would seem reasonable given the supposed 'power' attributed to Astropaths (see Phillips quotes)... Combine that with the nature of Geller Fiels (i.e. Rennie, Execution Hour) coupled with other shields (Watson, Inquisitor) and you create a situation where the function of shields is to protect the crew from psychic influence and infiltration, not encourage it. With that said, the Astropath could essentially utilise a passive ability (e.g. 'psychic beacon' as used by Moma Parsheen; Watson, Inquisitor - note this includes both passive and active elements, arguably) in being the 'transponder', e.g. active 'radar signal' from the 'AWAC'/matterium-based Astropathic Choir 'bouncing' off a properly 'prepared' mind of the Astropath. This must be done through several 'layers' of defence specifically in place to prevent just the type of thing that the 'transponder' wants to happen. The solution is to 'extend' the Astropath beyond the protective fields, but again that creates a situation whereby you're likely to be 'attracting' attention that you don't want and making yourself inherently vulnerable. Once more the use of psychic abilities within the warp seems to be... problematic, to say the least. Do you mean that monitor stations with astropaths can only detect incoming ships because the incoming ships have astropaths? If so, I would definitely disagree. I wasn't suggesting it, but suggesting that is what Phillip might be trying to suggest. I also disagree with it. Hey, wait a minute. Isn't it possible for monitor stations to detect incoming space hulks a long time before they actually arrive? Isn't this normally done by 'sensing' the ripple in the warp... Yep. Also the Planet Killer (Rennie, Execution Hour). Were most ships lost, or many ships lost? My impression is the latter, and the difference is rather huge. Yes, it is. Only at the expense of the 'fluff'...
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Post by Philip on Oct 26, 2004 9:22:07 GMT -5
they're on trade routes which, technically, they don't need because they're Navigators. Again, though, they're not scattered over everywhere... they're on trade routes which, technically, they don't need because they're Navigators. And so you up the chance of 'collission', which again you are back to the real world. This caught my attention, as this seems to be a ‘difference of image’ and affect how I see things, I’ve included a (rough) description of how I see warp routes I would like to know how you see them. =Image of Warp Routes=If you imagine that a warp route is a safe route from one place to another, a good analogy would be a narrow country road, you need a good driver to stay on the road and feel the conditions. A calculated jump is a bit haphazard, the autopilot (like Jaguar’s car autopilot thing) stays on the route most of the time, but sometimes it just doesn’t and slips from the road. The severity of the ‘slips of the road’ depend on conditions, if driving down a narrow country road it not to bad, perhaps smashed bumper, but is you are driving in the mountains a slight slip could be fatal. In a calm bit of warp, slipping from the route may just mean a delay, in a stormy bit; it could be the equivalent of falling down a mountain side (drop into a storm). Also I would add that the warp route while narrow is also constantly changing in all dimensions. Anything outside the safe route is ‘off-road’, this could mean a choppy ride, completely impassable (huge detour) or fatal. In the far distant past, I think the ‘off-road’ warp was smoother all over, perhaps the equivalent of driving a Landrover over a county field, bit bumpy but fun. Do you have a different image?
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Post by Kage2020 on Oct 26, 2004 9:59:18 GMT -5
This caught my attention, as this seems to be a ‘difference of image’... This is a common problem, and one that is often compounded by the use of analogy despite sometimes that is the only way that it can go for people to understand what the other is saying. If you imagine that a warp route is a safe route from one place to another, a good analogy would be a narrow country road... Not quite. The conditions of the 'road' vary from unmarked road, to B-road to A-road to motorway with increasing rarity. This is the whole chicken and egg snenario of 'which came first'... did the warp route define the trade, or did the trade define the warp route. There are arguments for both. These routes, whether 'natural' or 'formed', are a manifestation of the natural ebb-and-flow of the warp. It is subject to its own currents and flows on top of which we must consider the 'canker' of Chaos... So a combination of the natural and the un-natural. In some ways you could think of it as the 'natural' flow of blood in veins, and the 'unnatural' corruption of 'osteomyelitis' (this is where you get infection into the bone marrow cavity by 'pus-forming' bacteria and it 'forces' the creation of a hole in the bone and skin out of which the puss drains). ...you need a good driver to stay on the road and feel the conditions. I would once again suggest that this is where the analogy fails in direct application. It predicates Navigator=driver and within the context of the analogy, since a driver is required a Navigator is required. This is not strictly true (cf. WD139/140), but which is a very part of the 'argubate' itself... But you also get to that. A calculated jump is a bit haphazard... If it was having to navigate in the dark, without any reference, then yes. But that's not the case. In the far distant past, I think the ‘off-road’ warp was smoother all over.. This is a given. See above. Do you have a different image? It would appear primarily in the fact that your argument is geared to automatically make calculated jumps inherently dangerous thereby moving for the automatic adoption of the Navigator...
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