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Post by Philip on Dec 2, 2004 8:42:31 GMT -5
Hmm, points taken. ;D
I’m thinking that if ‘boundary’ space was used it would need to be defined and may impinge upon other concepts.
As you say in the discussion on the concept of warp, that the warp is made up of layers, with what seems to be a mixture of the warp and material universes, and as a ship goes deeper it will eventually enter the pure warp.
Why not the same for the material universe? The deeper you go into the material universe the more ‘real’ it becomes, until you end up at the deepest depths and are in the materium proper (where humans dwell).
As humans dwell in the deepest layers of the materium, they are unaware of the upper materium levels in their day to day lives. It only become noticeable when they see a semi-phazed hulk, as it appears ‘ghostlike’, becoming more tangible as it passes through their solar system.
Boundary space by definition would be the upper levels of both universes combined into one. Reading all the definitions of the warp, it seems to me that many have (in a round about way) invented half of Boundary Space already.
=Jumps= The Imperium’s warp jump engines are so powerful that they can jump right across boundary space straight into the deepest level of the warp (the true warp).
Tau jumps are much weaker; they can enter boundary space, but can’t push deep enough to reach the deepest layer of the warp (and so their travel is always being held back by the materium).
=Travel= Boundry space is a mixture of the two universes, and as such both play a part in its make up, and both impose their own set limits upon the space. The maximum speed achievable within boundary space is therefore limited, because the material universe has such a great effect, but, as the warp also has a great effect the laws of physics can be bent. FTL travel is possible - but even 10 times the speed of light is agonisingly slow compared to proper warp jumps (a 10LY journey could be cut down to 1 year, but a proper warp jump could do the same journey in just a couple of weeks).
[Personally, I would limit is to the speed of boundary space travel to that of light, or at a push twice the speed of light. The reason being that this would make boundary jumps near useless to the Imperium and in the same stroke severely limit Tau travel and expansion]
=Power requirements= If you are in one universe of the other, it takes no power to stay there, but in boundary space you are always pushing towards the other universe, However once you bridge the middle point, you are then dragged into the other space, and in order to stay in boundary space would have to start pushing the other way. Staying in the exact middle of boundary space is very difficult, but if achieved both universe are pulling on the ship and the ship requires far less energy to stay there (Tau goal?).
=Space Hulk= Space Hulks are in the unfortunate position of spanning boundary space, in effect both universes have laid partial claim to the ship. The ship is therefore trapped and can’t permanently and fully leave boundary space as the other universe will pull it back in.
=Problem= Getting on and off.
If a hulk was more in the upper areas of the material universe, it would become visible and even appear solid, but in effect it is still in boundary space. This is an unnatural situation as normally an object in the upper layer of the materium would be sucked down into real space proper.
The problem is that a person stepping onto the Hulk in this scenario isn’t going into boundary space, they are still in the materium and when the Hulk is drawn away toward the warp and disappears, anyone who boarded the hulk would be left behind (floating in space).
Handwave: The hulk acts as a limited ‘warp gate’, stepping onto the hulk is like stepping into a gateway, the problem it that the person is then under the same rules as the hulk and is trapped, perhaps ‘force of will’ allows a living person to leave.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 2, 2004 18:02:03 GMT -5
While I know not everyone on the site is happy with trying to explain phenomenon in terms of quantum physics for the purposes of my explanation I will be touching upon some of these points (don't say I didn't warn you).
Instead of Newtonian Gravity, might we instead consider quantum gravity as an explanation of how space hulks transition from the warp to the materium and back again.
Quantum gravity in its simplest terms refers to a interaction between the electromagnetic fields emited by charged particles. Between any two charged particles there arises an (weaker) attractive force, separate and distinct from an ordinary attractor (positive / negative charge). The greater the density of secondary electromagnetic fields, the greater the attractive force.
Stars, Planets and other "massive" systems are made up of countless charged particles (each emitting its own electromagnetic field). The more charged particles, the greater the gravity of a system. These enormous numbers of electromagentic fields create something akin to background static or an increase in density of the surrounding matterium and near warp.
In terms of Newtonian Physics, this wold be a curvature or dip in space/time. This density (curvature) is one of the reasons that ships are unable to jump directly to the warp from inside a star system. Ships must travel out to a boint where the density (curvature) falls off....this is the Warp Zone.
Philip's idea of different levels of reality is partly correct. It is not however like layers on a cake or different levels of water. It instead has to do with the number of electromagnetic fields present. Let us consider the warp zone.
The warp zone is the minimum distance outside of a system a ship must travel in order to escape the density (curvature in space/time) it creates. What is beyond this point? As you move further into interstellar space, the density (number of close electromagnetic fields) curvature falls off even more.
Interstellar space may actually be flat. With the lack of curvature or electromagnetic disturbance, reality is not as certain. Without the reference of a star system (or a ship you bring with you to get there) direction really has no meaning either.(as far as the eye can see).
In such an enviroemnt, it may be possible for a space hulk or other object in the near warp to transition into reality.
Of course some may see this as putting the cart before the horse, since we have not discussed how space hulks form. Let us turn to that now.
Again using the concept of quantum gravity, and the atraction that exists between the charged particles, might we also not assume that there may be attraction between like particles from a given reality.
Imagine if you will taking to seprate and distinct samples of mercury. if you were to pour them out onto a surface and the two made contact, they would begin to merge and run into each other eventually forming one larger sample of mercury.
The merging of ships that comprise a space hulk may happen in a simmilar manner. Also derelicts may be attracted to geller fields in the warp. If we consider a Geller Field to be similar to a bubble of reality around a vessel, then particles in the warp of made of similar particles might be pulled towards them.
IIRC there was a story of a ship jumping into the warp and running directly into a space hulk or encountering a space hulk along its travel through the warp. whateverthe case may be if you have a derrelict that has a functioning geller field...even for a short time, it may attract other derelicts and merge together into a space hulk.
Now to why space hulks seem to spontaneoulsy jump back into the warp. On their journey through warp space, hulks will not only accumulate other derelicts. They will probably begin to incorporate some of the matter of the warp itself into their makeup.
With the ships being so twisted and running together in portions, this seem not only likely, but necessary for the creation of the hulk to occur. with such matter incorporated into their structure, I beleive that space hulks may suffer from instability like warp entities.
As a space hulk draws closer to a star system and therefore harder reality (versus the softer reality that exists in interstellar space), it will begin to encounter stresses. reality will attempt to expell the warp matter back into the warp. The amount of warp matter incorporated into the structure of the ship and how close it comes to a system will determine how long it takes for the hulk to be forced back into the warp.
What are peoples thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 2, 2004 21:33:10 GMT -5
Well, that was my personal belief based upon preference, a reading of the original Inquisitor (Watson) and subsequently a look at the structure of Mage the Ascension's Tellurian.
This is where you're getting me wrong. The warp is separate from the matterium and is not composed of a mix of the two. The fact that the 'shallows' of the warp more closely mimics the matterium is more a product of the structure of the universe than any form of intermixing (i.e. consensual determination). Rather than having a mixed reality the common representation of 'astral space' would be appropriate (e.g. consider the Near Umbra). That is to say it is a reflection of the matterium, but is not off the matterium nor does it contain the matterium just as the mirror image does not contain 'reality', as it were.
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Post by CELS on Dec 3, 2004 8:20:14 GMT -5
The implication from the 'fluff' descriptions and indeed the name itself (immaterium) would argue against 'warp stuff', despite the cludgy concept of 'warpstone', 'warpdust' or whatever. Does the fluff actually explain what 'warpstones' are? Is it unlikely that it is in fact matterium that has been extremely 'corrupted' by the immaterium? For example, a stone from a Daemonworld in the Eye of Terror?
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Post by Destecado on Dec 3, 2004 9:23:08 GMT -5
The implication from the 'fluff' descriptions and indeed the name itself (immaterium) would argue against 'warp stuff', despite the cludgy concept of 'warpstone', 'warpdust' or whatever. I quess with this one statement you did not find it necessary to comment on the rest of my theory. Still saying it is the 'immaterium" and then hand waving that there is no mixture or influece on normal matter (from the matterium) occuring stikes me as incorrect. If you wish, we can use the example of radiation. Objects exposed to massive doses of radiation will begin to deteriorate as the charged particles of the radiation knock electrons out of its structure. Over time, these object become radioactive themselves. My theory is that exposure to the charged particles of the warp have a similar effect of destabilizing objects directly exposed to it. Of course as with radiation, different object or even different parts of the human body react differently. Some may readily absorb it while others are more resistant and it takes a longer duration of exposure or a higher dose to effect them. This would probably hold true for cmponents of a space ship. This warp "halflife" is what causes the instability of space hulks in the matterium.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 3, 2004 16:52:16 GMT -5
It is more of a trouble of having 'material particles' in the immaterium. That the warp somehow 'corrupts' the material object over time is a given... I'm just not over-fond of explaining things entirely with science when concerned with the warp.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 3, 2004 17:41:33 GMT -5
It is more of a trouble of having 'material particles' in the immaterium. That the warp somehow 'corrupts' the material object over time is a given... I'm just not over-fond of explaining things entirely with science when concerned with the warp. I understand your reservations, but hypothetically speaking, does it make sense and does it explain the phenomenon? If yes, we can always pile superstitious hocus pocus on top of it later.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 8:58:30 GMT -5
The concepts that I accept include the fact that the warp corrupts unshielded material matter given time and, further, that said 'corruption' occurs most rapidly at the greater 'depths'. Corruption in the 'shallows' still occurs but at much, much lesser rates. Further that different materials react differently to the warp. Ironically given some of my previous writing, I just don't feel it is necessary to couch it entirely in science... Don't get me wrong, though. I do like science to construct plausible and consistent representations, just not for it to be represented as such. Which is why I tend to get twitchy, as explained previously. That and the concepts above were kind of 'givens'...
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Post by Philip on Dec 4, 2004 12:37:49 GMT -5
Only problem that it is a tad too slow and either requires the invention of yet another drive system, or the extension of calculated jumps to ludicrously slow times. I wouldn’t can the speed of light slow , but I get the idea. It wouldn’t require a new warp drive system, just a very inefficient one but I think you are right with regard to the propulsion system as I doubt the warp sail effect would work very well within boundary space (could be a new Tau design) Calculated jumps would still be full on warp jumps. Machine Navs would use boundary space to give clues as to what is happening in [true] warp space. As boundary space is the interaction of both universes, machines can see ‘it’ (how neat was that!) As Sikkukkut's post indicates (erm maybe it's not in this thread, but it's on this board!) there is a definite power requirement to stay within the warp. If humans where in the warp, it would require power to maintain the Geller field (if Geller fields are not self-perpetuating, and that you don’t by into my ideas that the Geller field is some advanced form of conversion field) This would be inconsistent with the descriptions of the Tau FTL system (cf. Kill Team). Fair enough.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 12:47:05 GMT -5
As boundary space is the interaction of both universes, machines can see ‘it’ (how neat was that!) Your boundary space sounds increasingly like astral space (as defined in other games), and that is the point where starships do not travel through...
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Post by Philip on Dec 4, 2004 12:59:33 GMT -5
Oh, reminds me of Astral Hounds! (Rogue Trader - p203).
Hmm, I was thinking that boundary space is a kind of ‘no mans land’, where creatures of either universe can’t exist naturally.
Added;
When a Daemon is summoned into the material plane, it is drawn through a ‘tunnel’ in boundary space. As it gets closer the materium (note; it is not really travelling in distance) is starts to become visible, once past the ‘middle hump’ it is then pulled into reality.
This would be seen as the Daemon first appearing as a faint ghost like image that gets more opaque as time passes until it is fully tangible, with a bright flash as it enters the real universe (instantly displacing atoms that occupied its space).
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 13:14:31 GMT -5
That's why, roughly, the concept fits. You don't really 'exist' there, but project there. The 'warp' proper might be thought of as a 'higher level' of the warp (or deeper level).
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Post by Philip on Dec 4, 2004 13:36:17 GMT -5
That's why, roughly, the concept fits. You don't really 'exist' there, but project there. The 'warp' proper might be thought of as a 'higher level' of the warp (or deeper level). I see what you are saying and agree. [/li][li]The reason I put the ‘middle point’ in, as everything slides out of boundary space if it is not forcefully trying to stay there (a Tau ship may be immune to warp daemons but at the same time is has to spend vast amount of power to stay in boundary space but never going beyond the mid point) [/li][li]Psykers would be individuals would could reach with their mind past the ‘mid point’ and connect directly with the warp, this means the boundary space acts as a buffer and determines who manifests their powers (for example: all humans are ‘psykers’ but they don’t seem to be psykers because their minds are too weak to reach the warp, and hence do not show any powers) [/li][li] As for a bit of history, I think when humans first tried to reach warp space they did it much like the Tau do now (as I describe it), and as they pushed the warp engine technology (humans always have to go one step further) they breached the mid point and the ships where sucked into the warp proper. This meant that a lot of research was conducted at the ‘mid point’ with deep probes (warp engined probes on ‘stings’)to try a figure what warp space really was, leading to the Geller field technology.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 13:42:46 GMT -5
And now you are making it sound like my upper manifold, but just with a 'lower' position (for me the reason that daemons come through 'humans' normally is that it is the closest 'space' to their natural home, as it were). Unsurprisingly enough I like my version, but the 'boundary space' sounds rather ad hoc and unnecessary. Again, though, isn't that a surprise! You might find it interesting to read through my descriptions of the warp, warp travel, etc., even though the information is old and out-moded for the most part. (I'm currently in the midst of re-writing it for the GURPS Rogue Trader sourcebook, but that will not be ready for some time.) It's a slightly painful experience, both in the content and quality but still might provide some interesting information... With the odd glitch here and there it does pretty well at explaining all the phenomenon without referencing dimensional phasing, etc.
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Post by Philip on Dec 4, 2004 13:48:38 GMT -5
Sounds like fun, though I think I’ve already given most of what you have written the once over, any bit that you would like to draw my attention to? As for the Daemons (you know how I like smooth design ) they link to the material universe through the Psykers link to the warp (the link is basically a tunnel trough boundary space).
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