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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 14, 2004 6:49:03 GMT -5
In terms of imagery, you were arguing for tubes that 'contained' the ships, though. The whole staying towards the middle, etc.
Must have missed something.
I would strongly argue that it is not a physically integrated universe, but rather one that is linked through the mind/soul. Indeed, one could argue that the numerous 'fluff' descriptions are fairly clear on this. Of coure, as always it is moderated by interpretation.
Fairy snuff... Just thought that I would mention that it was something that I had always worked on. Ideed, it was implicit in the fact that I intensely disliked the idea of a ship drifting 'out' of the warp when you turn off the Geller Field as has been argued elsewhere.
Basically, it just isn't possible but you can also be damaged doing it. Fairy snuff.
It's the whole "Is momentum conserved?" issue. Personally I do not believe it is and that, indeed, killing or gaining velocity might be another means by which Navigators can show their abilities.
Yes, again this was one of the premises of the original discussion. Might even have been stated without the term 'windage'.
Navigators also rely on those self-same warp currents. The difference is that they can dive deeper to catch the 'rip', as it were. (I find McNeill's approach whereby Navigators actively manipulate warp currents to be tedious beyond belief. Very, very munchkin and representative of the rather approach of GW... Of course, is there was a separate explanation...)
No. I do not believe any form of 'matterium propulsion' works in the warp.
Darn... got to go to work... will try and edit later.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 14, 2004 15:30:13 GMT -5
'Barrier Space' However their are weaknesses in this, since to make warp travel possible you have to travel between them. This occures naturally as well as with whatever method the Imperium uses to punch its way it and out. Its these natural holes that allow Pykers to access their powers. This all happens at a quantum level and would be happening all the time. Its quite a parallel to quantum Physics itself, since its so chaotic in nature. I've touched on the relationship between Quantum Mechanics and an explanation for how warp travel works in the Zero Point Field Discussion. While personally this is the explanation I agree with, in order to better represent the Sci-Fantasy Universe of 40K it was deemed that we required a less scientific explanation. When you say that Psykers access the warp through these natural holes, are you saying that they need to be near a warp rift in order to access warp energies? Since the energy really has no physical form in the warp and only manifests once it passes into the matterium (into the shape or effect the psyker conjures), could not the formless energy pass directly through the boundary. The psychic test taken by psykers (in the wargame) might represent the resistance of the local boundary to this energy transmission. And thats why hulks hog the shallow waters of both Warp and Materium, because they have be caught somehow on the barrier zone and the are repelled out of each realm. When in real space they are dragged towards the biggest warp point that is forming, and in warp space they are looking for an equil gap exiting. This is of course in a warp with out any currents or other anomalies that would effect the movement of the hulks correct? Think of it as a big mixing bowl The warp is made of energy, and in its natural state I imagine just sits there doing not much, but it is connect to the materium, gravity for one has a huge effect on the warp. This leads down a completely different rode of discussion about what the warp really is rather than the interaction between the two. Just as a point of reference, if the warp is a vast sea of energy, then it must be dynamic in some aspect. All definitions of the word energy speak of power or dynamic force with a quality of acting or being active. this does not sound like the docile or tranquil sea you reference above. While it is true that the matterium acts upon the warp, the opposite is also true. Your example also only takes into account the existance of one reality (the matterium). What about the existance of other realities (or Realms) that affect the warp and the matterium as well.... Actuallly, this may be better continued in the nature of the warp than in this thread...so just diregard this little rantYou had me sold until you said this. Stirring the warp is fine, but having it has a 'dense' medium that maintains the shape of a planet - or even a syste - doesn't work for me. It seems... wrong somehow. Overtly and inappropriately simplistic. Again, the 'natural' impact of the matterium on the warp is to be expected.. but you've got planets orbitting stars, satellites orbitting planets, then asteroids, comets, rogue planets, blah blah. And on top of that you have the influence of Chaos... This you will accept as a plausible explanation, yet the vibrations caused by the elecromagnetic fields of particles is too scientific? Would it be more palitable if I called it the sonar like reflection of the vibrations emitted by every particle of matter in the matterium back into the warp, which causes an after image or echo of reality in the near warp?
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 14, 2004 16:55:21 GMT -5
This you will accept as a plausible explanation, yet the vibrations caused by the elecromagnetic fields of particles is too scientific? No, because the original implication was the idea that the warp was constructed of matter... It's not the use of science, but the way in which you use it. At least when you're trying to sell people on the idea of something. Offering a framework is just peachy, but then using it beyond the specific 'fluff' sometimes becomes problematic. But heck, we all do that with other things. That and the allusions about having to dumb down things... Ah well. My bad, as always.
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Post by RascalLeader on Dec 14, 2004 17:50:54 GMT -5
No: what I was intending was that the way their minds are put together, they form natural holes themselves.
Their momentum is effected normally in the warp and by gravity in the Materium. Its best to think of it as magnatium, when submerged in the Warp its drawn towards the disruption of gravity and pulls itself into real space. Once their its then drawn back toward the warp and repelled by reality. However dispite this they are still subject to the rules of whatever relm they are in, they will drift untill they make the next switch.
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Post by Zholud on Dec 16, 2004 5:40:52 GMT -5
While I have no time for good post, just several points: - Cork theory – I guess it is a nice starting point. After all it just has no mention of currents, thus it shows how anything is thrown out from warp given enough time and no currents/additional forces. even in real world a cork may float until it drowns or is eaten, etc, without ever reaching land…
- Warp=energy – I disagree with this equivalent. While Einstein’s equivalence says that matter is energy as well, we usually don’t say that matter is energy. Same here, we have warp stuff which is warp energy, matter or something in between. We also have not warp but warped stuff there, like hulks.
- Laws of thermodynamics – have to point that it may still hold if Destecado adds warp to broader universe. Energy/matter cannot be destroyed in whole system, but not in any specific part of it.
- gradual movement from materium to warp – I think that it is not too gradual as Phillip seems to suggest. For me there is clear difference, like bank of river – here you’re on solid ground and there you’re slightly but in water. It has many things in common with ground (e.g. you can walk knee deep w/o problem, etc), but it is not the ground it’s water (warp).
- On analogies – people, don’t go too far this way, because sometime I see ‘proofs’ like, it does not work in my analogy, thus it cannot be
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Post by Philip on Dec 21, 2004 11:47:55 GMT -5
In terms of imagery, you were arguing for tubes that 'contained' the ships, though. The whole staying towards the middle, etc. Must have missed something. There is a difference between containment and attraction. The idea is that the centres of the streams are more attractive to the material of a ship than the non stream bits of the warp (wilds). This means a ship is drawn to the stream not contained by it (once out of a container, the container has no effect, whereas the stream is always attractive to matter much like gravity) In terms of imagery, I imagine a ship would try and stay in the middle of a stream, but if the ship is going too fast and the stream changes direction suddenly then the ship can be thrown out of the stream (much like a car taking a corner to quickly) and into wilds of warp space, where is may drift, but more likely will run slap bang into another stream, be drawing strongly to the centre and get caught up in the flow of the new stream. A ship’s journey could be along a route that jumps from one stream to another many times until it reaches its destination. Even if the ship is ‘lost in the wilds’, it is still being drawn toward the nearest stream and will eventually connect. It will just take a while. The reason the warp is acting a little like the materium (gravity, momentum etc.) is because the streams are closely linked to the materium being the after effects of gravity compression. It seems fair that just as the warp can manifest in the material universe and change things in a way that can defy the laws of physics, so the materium has a complimentary effect on the warp, making it act in a way that is unwrap like. As for the other bits; [/li][li]The Warp Engine gets you into the warp (and out again) [/li][li]The Geller field allows the ship to maintain it material nature within the warp [/li][li]And finally some form of power shielding is used as a rudder/ brake within the stream.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 21, 2004 12:11:11 GMT -5
Cork theory – I guess it is a nice starting point. After all it just has no mention of currents, thus it shows how anything is thrown out from warp given enough time and no currents/additional forces. even in real world a cork may float until it drowns or is eaten, etc, without ever reaching land… Unfortunately, this theory had some major flaws...and its too simpliostic view madeithard to translate into a comprehensive theory of the warp. This was the major reason that I discarded it. Though it had limitations, the principles behind the cork theory eventually lead to my theory of...for want of a better term... Escape Velocity. Warp=energy – I disagree with this equivalent. While Einstein’s equivalence says that matter is energy as well, we usually don’t say that matter is energy. Same here, we have warp stuff which is warp energy, matter or something in between. We also have not warp but warped stuff there, like hulks. The warp is termed the immaterium, because it lacks form or definition. I covered this in much greater detail within the Zero Point field discussion, but suffice to say, any matter broken down to its most simple form exists as ionized (charged) particles or energy. The matterium..or reality orders this formless energy into the different systems that we have come to recognizes as objects. If these objects are broken down, they release some of this energy. Take for instance the break down of organic material in a compost heap. Composting is a form of biological oxidation. Oddly enough, the simplifyed equation for composting is very close to that of Combustion (Chemical oxidation of Hydrocarbons).
Organic hydrocarbon (fuel) + oxygen —> carbon dioxide + water + heat + compost (ash)
It actually is an all to common occurance for compost heaps to catch fire...turning from biologic oxidation to chemical oxidation. Which ever occurs though, the complex structures we recognize are broken down into simpler compounds accompanied by the release of energy. Objects from the matterium in the warp (and not protected by a Geller field) will begin to given into their own internal stress as well as be "warped" by interaction (exposure) to the energy of the warp (warp emissions). Laws of thermodynamics – have to point that it may still hold if Destecado adds warp to broader universe. Energy/matter cannot be destroyed in whole system, but not in any specific part of it. Personally I beleive that the matterium is a transitory structure on the greater face of the warp....sort of like an ice flow forming in a body of water and eventually melting. If you go on the current preditions, the expanding Universe (matterium) that we all know and love will eventually begin to shrink back upon itself...perhaps returning to the big bank and starting the process all over again. If this is the case, one must question whether the laws of thermodynamics apply to only our reality or the warp as a whole...and any other realities that may float within it. Gradual movement from materium to warp [/b] [/quote] As you say, I think it is a line of demarcation between one and the other. The way Phillip describes it makes his boundary space seem more like an estuary. An estuary is a place where fresh water from rivers and streams mixes with the salt water of the ocean creating an area brackish (mixture of salt and fresh) water, that can extend for a good distance. While this idea has someinteresting possibilites, I think his boundary space...as I have defined it above would be more like the near warp. It is where the laws of our reality (the matterium) intermix with the chaos of the warp.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 21, 2004 19:48:30 GMT -5
Now we're just throwing words and definitions back and forth. Two concepts: - The 'near warp' has residual physical laws which decrease with depth.
- There is a boundary between the warp and the matterium which things cannot merely 'drift' through.
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