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Post by Zholud on Dec 10, 2004 15:47:26 GMT -5
There is a list of points I’d like to add to the discussion. - Geller field – IMHO is not necessary for ship to enter and survive in the warp. It should be noted that my (and not only my) idea of field as warp sail is not in any disagreement with its more commonly known shield property. Its like sea-ship hull – 2 properties – it protects against water and sea beasts and it allows ship not to drown (by keeping air inside).
- Ideal space – one of the ways to have hulks move in-out warp is that ships were man/Eldar/other race-built, and consciousness of the race created an image of the ship or based the construction on the image (or both). This image (Plato’s idea) exists in the warp ant to some extent interacts with the material ship. If we assume that idea is anchored to its ideal plane/dimension/space and acts as magnet to its material implementation, then the different thickness of warp between material and ideal space (which is Sea of Souls I think) leads to attraction of ship in/out warp. Possibly closeness to creators’ race acts as catalyst, throwing the ship in or out.
- Death-cry – often ships in warp are mass graves for the crew. If they die with burst of emotions (fear/anger/despair), this creates something in the warp, which anchors the ship to it or it changes the material properties of the ship, making it more wraithbone-like, i.e. psychoactive. Maybe this creates version of Geller field…
- Shallows – I agree that hulks should travel (mostly) there.
- Solar wind and magnetosphere – one point: both the sphere reflects rays and most non-transparent physical objects as well. Main plus of solar sail is that it can be very large, thus increasing overall received impulse, giving more impetus than just a brick in space… so Geller field is magnetosphere and hulk is a brick. Both may be moved it bombardment by photons is strong enough…
- warp-real space mix – thing to discuss. What stops Eye of Terror or Maelstrom, or many less known sites where you can enter the warp virtually walking around to be spread over real space? Seems some kind of protection is built-in in materium per se.
- Eternal oscillation – maybe crazy idea of sorts but what if hulks get a special property (hand-waving to be attracted by warp in real space and by real space in warp. Thus they drift in real space from one warp gate to another and vice versa in the warp… this just suggests why they enter-exit… kinda
All for the moment, yet to read up the thread
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 10, 2004 16:46:37 GMT -5
There is a list of points I’d like to add to the discussion. I'm afraid that's not allowed... Just kidding, obviously! IMHO is not necessary for ship to enter and survive in the warp. This is what I'm working upon, although 'survive' is moderated as a function of exposure (i.e. time) and 'depth' in the warp, as well as the direct activity of warp entities. It should be noted that my (and not only my) idea of field as warp sail is not in any disagreement with its more commonly known shield property. Again, agreed. The Tau are therefore defaulted to 'natural warp gates' and shallow skims. ...and acts as magnet to its material implementation... Each ship gets its own hulk or, at least, the dominant hulk... Hmmn. Space hulks are normally described as both recognisable and alien. Dominance is a way around this, but thought that I would mention it. ...which is Sea of Souls I think... Care must be taken in the use of such terms, BTW. They can be confusing inasmuch as people might actually take it to be an actual 'sea' of souls, rather than one in potentia. leads to attraction of ship in/out warp. Possibly closeness to creators’ race acts as catalyst, throwing the ship in or out. Space hulks are subconsciously summoned? Death-cry – often ships in warp are mass graves for the crew. If they die with burst of emotions (fear/anger/despair), this creates something in the warp... The one problem here is that it assumes that the crew suffers sudden and group death, rather than spaced out. This may be too large an assumption given the nature of warp travel and conflict in the 40k universe, which primarily occurs outside of the warp. Shallows – I agree that hulks should travel (mostly) there. Except when it is occassionally pulled into the depths, of course! warp-real space mix – thing to discuss. What stops Eye of Terror or Maelstrom, or many less known sites where you can enter the warp virtually walking around to be spread over real space? Interesting question. Seems like a threshold phenomenon. Eternal oscillation – maybe crazy idea of sorts but what if hulks get a special property (hand-waving to be attracted by warp in real space and by real space in warp. Surely that is an extension of your 'racial consciousness/ship image' approach, above?
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Post by RascalLeader on Dec 10, 2004 19:50:23 GMT -5
The 'Barrier Space' idea (For a lack of a better term) links in quite well with this. Just to put Kages Mind at ease it does not have to be a new Realm tacked on that leads to X Number of new ways of FTL travel but defining how the Warp/Materium Co-exist.
Its a membrane that seperates them, repelling them away from one another so they don't overlapp. In fact its proberbly at the 'point' where they both join, and since they cannot both exist with each other they repell each other any.
However their are weaknesses in this, since to make warp travel possible you have to travel between them. This occures naturally as well as with whatever method the Imperium uses to punch its way it and out. Its these natural holes that allow Pykers to access their powers. This all happens at a quantum level and would be happening all the time. Its quite a parallel to quantum Physics itself, since its so chaotic in nature.
And thats why hulks hog the shallow waters of both Warp and Materium, because they have be caught somehow on the barrier zone and the are repelled out of each realm. When in real space they are dragged towards the biggest warp point that is forming, and in warp space they are looking for an equil gap exiting.
An on to the Eye of Terror, its basically one giant weaking of the Barrier effect, where the warp points penitrates so much that warp leaks out of it.
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Post by Philip on Dec 11, 2004 11:16:31 GMT -5
On ‘barrier space’, I would say that in 40K I don’t think it would be described as such; as it is really just a description of the phased parts of both the materium and immaterim that meet together. The mid-point bit isn’t any impediment to the jump, I imagine is as a smooth blending of the two universes. The problem is getting to barrier space and then pushing through it (or even just maintaining position in it). I imagine the barrier space to be like a gradient, the more power applied the greater the phasing until the ship becomes so phased that it then drops into the warp (once past the mid point it is then draw into the warp side of the universe). Warp Space, With all this talk of oceans, I though I would chip in my ideas. Just as stable warp gates, or worm holes are like tubes through warp space, so I imagine that all of warp space it made up of these structures but much weaker and constantly changing, like a nest of writhing snakes. These tubes appear as steams of plasma coloured energy to Navigators, and are everywhere, all mixed together in a chaotic fashion. The warp is jam packed with these streams, there is not ‘space’ in the warp, and every last bit is a ‘something’. Some parts of the warp writhe less than others and are pretty stable but still flow very quickly, other areas are so frantic and chaotic than a navigator would just go around it, and also there are a whole range of patterns/ behaviours in between. So once the ship pushes through barrier space and starts being drawn into the warp, the warp streams start to pull on the ship, accelerating it. Then the ships drops into the warp (proper) and is swept away by the stream they appear in. The ship uses its geller field/ power field as a rudder to steer the ship, to move around in the stream, and even push it to the edge of the stream and then jump to another stream. But unlike a canoe running rapids, warp steams that are running in opposite directions could be right next to each other, so a wrong slip would result in a very abrupt and traumatic change in direction and destroy a ship. Navigators have to be very active in their control of the ship and very concentrated when doing so, they are excellent at ‘slipstreaming’ ( ), and can make a warp jump seem almost smooth. I don’t see it as an ‘age of sail’ as that sounds far too calm, warp travel is a really wild ‘rollercoaster’ ride at speeds faster than light.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 11, 2004 11:33:21 GMT -5
The mid-point bit isn’t any impediment to the jump, I imagine is as a smooth blending of the two universes. The problem is getting to barrier space and then pushing through it (or even just maintaining position in it). Methinks that we're reaching a point of broad agreement but where there are individual concerns of just what language is used to represent it. In some ways kind of reminiscent of how in represent 'psyker abilities' there must be absolutely no mention of the word 'magic' or 'spells'... Personally I see no mid-point to any 'barrier' (Gauntlet) between the matterium and the immaterium. It just is. The idea that in some cases Navigators might be able to 'run the Gauntlet' (itself an interesting premise in the continuation of that particular phrase into the 40k universe) is another feature itself. Ships, however, should not be able to phase back into the matterium as a natural by-product of turning off a field. I imagine the barrier space to be like a gradient, the more power applied the greater the phasing until the ship becomes so phased that it then drops into the warp... Have there by any descriptions of an outside observers of warp-matterium transitions in the 'fluff'. None spring to mind. ...so I imagine that all of warp space it made up of these structures but much weaker and constantly changing, like a nest of writhing snakes. That has some presence in the 'fluff', but more in reference to the 'soul lines' of psykers and individuals (cf. Draco/Inquisitor by Watson). The warp is jam packed with these streams, there is not ‘space’ in the warp, and every last bit is a ‘something’. I'm instantly not liking this because it just sounds like the 'time tubes' from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adveture. The implications are also that you travel within a 'tube' rather than a current... It's a minor variation in how you describe something, again, but that's not really surprising. So once the ship pushes through barrier space and starts being drawn into the warp... Once they are through the 'Gauntlet' (or whatever) they are within the warp and therefore subject to the tides. The ship uses its geller field/ power field as a rudder to steer the ship, to move around in the stream, and even push it to the edge of the stream and then jump to another stream. Yes, that's how it has been described in previous threads. Terms such as 'etheric' might have been added to them in a nod of the 'ole head to the Aether, but there we go. But unlike a canoe running rapids, warp steams that are running in opposite directions could be right next to each other... Yep. Although that's the whole point of navigators as well as the limitations of calculation. I don’t see it as an ‘age of sail’ as that sounds far too calm, warp travel is a really wild ‘rollercoaster’ ride at speeds faster than light. That's an image consideration. People in the Age of Sail, particularly sailors, while they might have romanticised it never underestimated the dangers. Thus here...
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Post by Philip on Dec 11, 2004 22:27:36 GMT -5
I'm instantly not liking this because it just sounds like the 'time tubes' from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adveture. The implications are also that you travel within a 'tube' rather than a current... It's a minor variation in how you describe something, again, but that's not really surprising. What a horrible idea! Unlike the ‘time tubes’, ships can move from one stream to another; these are tubes without walls, all intermixing and crisscrossing. As an example, if there are two streams running parallel which then converge and merge, and then further down the line separate again. A ship travelling in one of the steams is trapped in that stream, but in the merged part, it could steer and the pick which stream to carry on the journey. The merged parts are like junctions. Streams mix like this all the time, if two streams are going in opposite directions happen to merge, the merge bit is seen as ‘dead zone’ to a navigator, it seems to not move, but that is only a superficial appearance, both streams are still flowing at full force. Now imagine that the stream is always merged with another stream, sometimes hundreds of other stream, even thousands, or million or billions. It is this complexity that makes the Warp seem so chaotic.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 11, 2004 22:41:10 GMT -5
Yes, that was the point. Unlike the ‘time tubes’, ships can move from one stream to another; these are tubes without walls, all intermixing and crisscrossing. Well, to be fair they could divide, etc. As an example, if there are two streams running parallel which then converge and merge, and then further down the line separate again. You mean kind of like a current? I found the 'tube' imagery to be restrictive, that is all. Too Finding Nemo...
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Post by Philip on Dec 12, 2004 9:36:28 GMT -5
Yes, that was the point. Hmm, in my head they look very different… Well, to be fair they could divide, etc. I suppose they could, but I was thinking that each stream is a galaxy wide loop ( and a few rare universe loops) and maintains it own integrity, and doesn’t loose it energy (In fact they are getting more powerful as humans etc. contribute to the flow of the streams). Stable warp ways, are just uncluttered and relatively unmerged streams (bits of a loop). Once in the past when there where no warp sig creatures the streams where much narrower (compared to now) and faint, and there where far less of them so the streams didn’t merge. Now streams have gone form a little country lane to a massive 500+ lane motor way moving at break neck speed. You mean kind of like a current? I found the 'tube' imagery to be restrictive, that is all. Too Finding Nemo...
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 12, 2004 12:14:44 GMT -5
Not so sure about having 'tubes' circling the galaxy... It all seems, however, mostly shades of imagery which isn't really going to have a significant impact. People seem relativey 'up' with a consistent image of the warp and warp travel.
Well, warp travel anyway.
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Post by Philip on Dec 12, 2004 12:28:30 GMT -5
Not so sure about having 'tubes' circling the galaxy... It all seems, however, mostly shades of imagery which isn't really going to have a significant impact. People seem relativey 'up' with a consistent image of the warp and warp travel. Well, warp travel anyway. Think of it as a big mixing bowl The warp is made of energy, and in its natural state I imagine just sits there doing not much, but it is connect to the materium, gravity for one has a huge effect on the warp. As the materium universe turns its star’s and planet’s gravity fields move through the warp creating tube effects (stars and planets seem to move slow, but in fact are moving very quickly in the grand scheme of things) left over from the effect of the gravity which compacts the warp. It is the gravity fields that move through the warp that ‘stir’. Once a planet has been around the Milky Way once, it will have made a complete tube loop. These tube effect are then pulled about by the toughs and feeling of warp sig creatures.
Edit add; In the warp a planet or star isn’t visible, only its effects. The gravity is great at the centre of a body, and in the warp the planet’s centre appear as ‘denser warp’, that is, it is brighter. Not all the warp become trapped to the core, much get compressed but doesn’t get attached to the ‘ball of light’ at the shadow of the gravity core.. As the gravity core moves through the warp it creates a string of dense warp behind it, this warp has been partially compressed by gravity, and as an unusual effect it retains it shape, as is as if the denser warp has been changed, and that it is attached to like. Inside the stream where the density is greatest, is also the place where a ship (made of matter) finds it easiest to exist, it also has the effect that the ship is attracted to the denser warp of the stream (as ships are attracted to high gravity bodies while in the warp, hence no warp jump within a solar system) and so holds it course naturally (one of the founding reason calculated jumps can work). The amount of attraction between the stream and the ship is related to the amount of attraction between the ship and the body that made the stream, so a stream made by a planet has weak holding ability, one made by a star is very good, but one made by a black hole is very stable (but may crush the ship). Flow; The flow of a steam is away from the planet, warp energy rushes into the stream as it come off the out layers of the planet gravity compression effect, and rushes along the stream to the end of the stream where it disperses (or if a complete loop keeps accelerating). Long streams have great pull and suck in warp energy in greater quantities from the planet end. This means all stream have a planet, comet or star at one end, or in the case of complete loops, the body is moving within it (sucking more energy into the stream with each loop). Sub space travel (gravity) leaves very faint streams in the warp, but these streams can jump and attach to another stream (wraps in a spiral) is the larger stream has a powerful pull. Even humans while walking about leave very faint streams, even as they sit reading a book, their body’s infinitesimally small gravity field is slowly compressing warp energy. In busy metropolises with billions of people, the little streams they all produce all start to mix and connect forming the basis of the warp net effect that will eventually become conscious in its own right (yep, walking to the corner shop may form the last link in the warp net that gives rise to a conscious warp entity!) Matter is the tool that sculpts the warp.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 12, 2004 17:19:25 GMT -5
The warp is made of energy, and in its natural state I imagine just sits there doing not much... Care should be taken that this isn't over-emphasised. There is a tendency of suggesting that the warp will become totally calm, or that no 'life' would derive out of the warp, etc. This would be a flawed approach. gravity for one has a huge effect on the warp. I would say 'energy' in general. Might be fine picking, but it would behove us to keep our options open. But, yes, the general 'workings' of the matterium would have an impact upon the warp just as the warp has an impact upon the matterium. It has been said here in one form before: "As above, so below" with the reverse implicit. It is the gravity fields that move through the warp that ‘stir’. Once a planet has been around the Milky Way once, it will have made a complete tube loop. You had me sold until you said this. Stirring the warp is fine, but having it has a 'dense' medium that maintains the shape of a planet - or even a syste - doesn't work for me. It seems... wrong somehow. Overtly and inappropriately simplistic. Again, the 'natural' impact of the matterium on the warp is to be expected.. but you've got planets orbitting stars, satellites orbitting planets, then asteroids, comets, rogue planets, blah blah. And on top of that you have the influence of Chaos... In the warp a planet or star isn’t visible, only its effects. I personally have it dimpling the lower manifold and, depending on the nature of 'life' in the system, possibly also the upper manifold. Of course, people generally cannot see the manifold spaces. Psykers (and sorcerers!) might if they have been correctly trained or have the appropriate 'wild power', but not the general Joe Psyker and definitely not Joe Imperium. As you say, though, it is the 'effects' that can sometimes identify a world, since while even if one can see the lower manifold it would be difficult to peer down through the depths into the upper manifold... Gravity causes a natural alteration to the flows which, for the most part, are fairly predictable. The extent of the flows moving thorugh an area are something else altogether. As the gravity core moves through the warp it creates a string of dense warp behind it... It would probably be more appropriate for it to leave - if 'leave' is even the correct word - an volume of less dense warp. and so holds it course naturally (one of the founding reason calculated jumps can work). Hmmn... It kind of works, but again it's not being sold right. Even a calculated jumps hould allow a ship to move between currents. Matter is the tool that sculpts the warp. And the warp shapes matter...
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Post by Philip on Dec 12, 2004 18:00:36 GMT -5
You had me sold until you said this. Nearly Stirring the warp is fine, but having it has a 'dense' medium that maintains the shape of a planet - or even a syste - doesn't work for me. It seems... wrong somehow. Overtly and inappropriately simplistic. It doesn’t maintain the shape of a planet, but a thin stream with a diameter a few hundred miles across, and a denser middle that the ship would use. The denser warp has picked up some ‘materium’ characteristics during the compression by gravity (as if the gravity forced a modicum pf order on the warp energy). Again, the 'natural' impact of the matterium on the warp is to be expected.. but you've got planets orbitting stars, satellites orbitting planets, then asteroids, comets, rogue planets, blah blah. And on top of that you have the influence of Chaos... Yah, and after a few billion years it gets a little chaotic. I find it fun imagining the various stream patterns a solar system would leave, the sun’s stream would be the best for travel as it is very steady and relatively straight, but the planet’s streams would be all over the place, spiralling wildly around the sun’s stream (or a flat spiral through the sun’s stream), and even connect with other much old stream left by previous solar system’s track. With each turn of the Milky Way, the warp gets a little more complicated. Oh, and for journey perpendicular to the circular orbits of stars in the Milky Way (centre – out or out – centre) ships use the oldest streams, laid down when the universe was first formed: as matter was dragged to the centre of the milky way it left streams as it travelled. Hmmn... It kind of works, but again it's not being sold right. Even a calculated jumps hould allow a ship to move between currents. Calculated jump look for the stream distortions in boundary space (I described earlier why machines can see boundary space) and calculate jumps through those streams. Therefore a calculated jump is a route through many streams, the reason it works without a navigator is because the ‘hold’ effect of the denser warp in the stream has on the ship. This means a nav computer only has to calculate when to slip (turn), how long to travel down a stream before the next turn etc. Navigators are good because they do not rely on the natural ‘hold’ effect of the stream and can maintain the ships position within the stream and optimise the journey by staying in the centre of a stream where the stream flows the fastest and is the smoothest. Navigated ships are less likely to drift and be thrown into the rough of the stream or accidentally slip into another stream.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 12, 2004 19:08:55 GMT -5
Therefore a calculated jump is a route through many streams, the reason it works without a navigator is because the ‘hold’ effect of the denser warp in the stream has on the ship. I'm going to say 'no' to this one. There is a fine line of representation here. This representation makes calculated jumps sound too simple. It is not about measurement, but of calculation... That and I still don't like this concept of 'hold'. Again, seems wrong on so many different levels.
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Post by Philip on Dec 12, 2004 19:22:16 GMT -5
I'm going to say 'no' to this one. There is a fine line of representation here. This representation makes calculated jumps sound too simple. It is not about measurement, but of calculation... Nothing is ever simple, and I know you know I don’t rate calculated jumps as being particularly practical. Sounds simple, but isn’t. That and I still don't like this concept of 'hold'. Again, seems wrong on so many different levels. No ‘hold’, no streams (otherwise if they where tubes they would be containing the ship, and I really do not like that idea). The idea is how the universes ‘really’ interact rather than a perception of how they interact. As you may have guessed, I don’t see the warp as being a totally separate universe, just part of a greater universe (remember my C’tan ramblings?) It's all part of my grand Tzeentchian web of concepts.
edit Talking of Tzeentch my Greater daemon is on the cover of Inferno 46! Now that was a smooth link, I hardly noticed it…
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Post by Destecado on Dec 13, 2004 13:51:04 GMT -5
I didn't realise that this was a problem. I have always worked upon the principle - and indeed have stated it, erm, somewhere (maybe on Portent) - that the energy is just to breach the barrier and, therefore, it would be needed both ways. The reason that I had a problem with the Cork Idea that Phillip originally described, and which has been described previously on other boards, is that it argued for the automatic return of matter to the matterium in the original form (i.e. the ship). I thought it bore mentioning as I was unsure if all those posting agreeded with the necessity to fire the jump engines when both entering and exiting the warp. If a ship or a derelict for that matter were to try to re-enter the matterium without firing up their warp drive or using a naturally weakened area in the warp (warp rift, warp gate) then they should be treated like a ship trying to re-enter a planetary atmosphere at the wrong angle. The could bounce of...back into warp sapce. The could burn up or be destroyed during the crossing. On rare cases, they could perhaps becme stuck halfway through...although that should be a rare case if at all. Erm... warp currents are the 'fluff' described means of propulsion not the inherent momentum of the ship. Ok, this could probably be included in the calculations. A ships could enter the warp at a modest speed in order to intersect a specific warp current which would carry it to its destination. Accounting for "windage" in the case of calculated warp jump may takeinto account the speed at which the current it plans on using is traveling at. sort of like a surfer kicking off to catch a wave and ride it in to shore. This may also explain why warp stroms are so disruptive of warp travel. Warp storms can disrupt the natural current of the warp that ships without navigators rely upon to travel. As previously described, yes. Only problem is that with this type of 'drive' you're not going to have any control of where you go: you are entirely at the mercy of the currents and eddies within the warp. They are also more susceptible to the action of the warp. Yes, one of the drawbacks and limitations of calculated jumps. Did you want to have mannuvering thrusters for ships without geller fields in the warp? This makes it sound a tad too simple, at least compared to the descriptions of the process of calculated jumps elsewhere on this board... Although continuing to read, the basic process is similar, it's just the language which is a bit gnarly. I tried to keep it simple in order to make it ease for everyone to grasp the basic concept. The actual computations are far from simple. Actually considering the relative motion of bodies within the solar system, it may be more like trying to launch a space ship from earth towards the moon. Trying to hit a moving target from another moving target is even more complicated. The bit that I don't like, and which doesn't inherently sound too much like the 'fluff', is that jump distance is based as a function of 'starting velocity' rather than the warp itself and the limitations of 'calculation'. Based on the changes above, I'd say it is more based on starting position, velocity upon entering the warp and the velocity of the warp current that the ship will be travelling in. As to limits of calculation, this is one of the reasons that calculated jumps are usually of smaller distances. The idea is that by limiting the distance, you can put an upper limit on the number of variable impating the jump equation. You are therefore able to derive a more accurate solution and plot that into the nav. computer. While that is broadly how I see it working, I never like to see it written down. I don't know, it just seems... wrong. :-\ can you explain why it seems wrong? Sorry for the brevity of responses. i will try to comment on evryone else's posts soon)
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