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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 14:00:54 GMT -5
Then the description of boundary space should be familiar to you as the manifold spaces... it is essentially a reinvention of those concepts from what you've written thus far.
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Post by Philip on Dec 4, 2004 14:25:16 GMT -5
I glad you think so; I was trying to include everyone’s ideas. Even Destecado’s advance science concepts are compatible with what I have outlined.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 4, 2004 21:13:39 GMT -5
The problem that I have with the concept is that it seems 'cludged', ad hoc and not entirely workeable. The whole idea that is an exclusive space, but just happens to allow spacehulks to play around in it... I can see what Destecado is getting at. While I find explaining everything in scientific terms to be inappropriate for the warp, using scientific theories to determine just how things work in the warp is fine. Indeed, it makes for great pseudo-science as long as one is not limited to those concepts (e.g. "That isn't how it works in the quantum gravitational model, and thus inappropriate for discussion" or "Well, that's basically magic. In Newtonian mechanics we have..." etc.) I cannot see any real advantage to 'boundary space' as you describe it, more so with reference to spacehulks or creating a coalesced realm that it inimicable to both (though not spacehulks). Of course, I'm probaby semi-remembering different concepts that you've thrown out, but there we go. Mea culpa if so. Once again this is moderated by personal preference and interpretation, but then again these things always are. Does it actually add anything to the universe, and the project, or is it the creation of a separate entity to include the existence of a single thing... You say that it is inclusive of both Destecado's and my own theories, but from a personal perspective it seems to miss my construction of the warp...
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Post by Philip on Dec 5, 2004 14:32:15 GMT -5
I freely admit that the space hulk bit is ad hoc, and personally speaking I’d get rid of them, and say that if a ship is in boundary space and looses its drives it slips into the warp or the materium depending on which side of the mid point it is.
The idea for the Space Hulk being trapped and acting as a bridge grow out of my ideas about Psykers and how they link through boundary space to draw power.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 5, 2004 14:48:47 GMT -5
Incidentally, I've borrowed the name Boundary space for 'Torison space'. Sounds cooler, even though I'll keep Torison as one of the individuals in the G/DAoT who developed the warp technologies, or at least the original theories behind them...
As to bounday space being a, well, impediment to daemons materialising into the universe...? For me there are several such boundaries: the upper manifold, boundary space, the lower manifold and the etheric (though if you're in the latter you might as well be in the matterium). You bypass this by going through psykers, since they get rid of all the 'boundaries' but the upper manifold. (And also another one of the reasons for the general 'corrupting' infuence of the warp as distinct from physical disruption.)
But ah well. The question still arises how, in a structured approach to the warp where we have at least a rough explanation of spacehulks, how they 'operate'. We understand that it is not necessary for them to have Geller Fields and that, indeed the lack thereof as well as 'depth' in the warp relates to the physical disruption (including 'merging' into other ships to form the hulks themselves. Similarly, Geller Fields prevent any disruption but do not make a ship immune. But what about precipitation into and out of the warp?
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Post by Philip on Dec 5, 2004 14:58:35 GMT -5
You welcome to use the term, glad you liked it. Looking at your description of the warp;
Upper manifold, boundary space, the lower manifold and the etheric…
…is the same as my term for boundary space?
As for hulks, they never really leave boundary space in my version, perhaps that idea could be adapted to fit in with your ideas.
As for the bridge idea, I suppose a daemon of will could make the jump, as it is very similar in concept to my version of the Psyker link.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 5, 2004 19:09:22 GMT -5
You welcome to use the term, glad you liked it. Names were never my strong point... *cough* Tir'asur thread in eldar. Upper manifold, boundary space, the lower manifold and the etheric… …is the same as my term for boundary space? Kind of, but not really. By your definition boundary space is just a little bit before you get into the 'warp' proper, and it's the 'warp proper' that you travel through when you engage the warp drives. This is not the case with my own approach. In quick ditty format: - Etheric = astral space = close reflection in which the 'laws' of reality are closely paralleled even though you're technically within the immaterium. It essentially operates as 'astral space' in such game universes as Shadowrun, the Near Umbra of Mage the Ascension, etc.
- Lower Manifold = A 'thermocline' to use the terms used in another thread. The impinging of a 'higher dimension' onto the fabric of the warp creating a barrier between the 'matterium' and the 'immaterium' (despite the etheric). Ultimately linked to the upper manifold.
- Barrier Space = Torison space = The place where warp ships go when they engage their warp drive. Energetic realm influenced by the manifold spaces, ergo other names as 'universe space' (lower) and 'god space' (upper). This is the 'Sea of Souls', the Empyream; the place through which ships travel and where the laws of reality unravel as one moves between the manifold spaces.
- Upper Manifold = Another 'thermocline', but an ultimate one. Hence the term 'Rubicon' (borrowing from Terran history).
The important difference here is that normal warp travel occurs through 'barrier space', and it is not the 'area' (or whatever) at which spacehulks phase in and out of reality. It has 'depth', yes, and with increasing depth comes increasing fraying of relity as described earlier. Tau drives still enter Barrier/Torison, though they tend to skip along the lower manifold. (Reason = hand-wave away...?!?) As for hulks, they never really leave boundary space in my version, perhaps that idea could be adapted to fit in with your ideas. <grin> It already fits but, as with yours, any means of precipitating into and out of reality is where the problem really occurs. As for the bridge idea, I suppose a daemon of will could make the jump... Yep, it takes will and also energy and it is the later that really causes the trouble. Ultimately, why manifest through several barriers when you can shortcut through a psyker?
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Post by Destecado on Dec 6, 2004 11:24:58 GMT -5
The concepts that I accept include the fact that the warp corrupts unshielded material matter given time and, further, that said 'corruption' occurs most rapidly at the greater 'depths'. Corruption in the 'shallows' still occurs but at much, much lesser rates. Further that different materials react differently to the warp. Ironically given some of my previous writing, I just don't feel it is necessary to couch it entirely in science... Don't get me wrong, though. I do like science to construct plausible and consistent representations, just not for it to be represented as such. Which is why I tend to get twitchy, as explained previously. That and the concepts above were kind of 'givens'... They may be givens, but as they have not really been used or even stated in the discussion of this topic, I felt the need to do so (to make sure we are all working with the same basic assumptions). That said, I have given the whole concept of warp travel and the geller field futher consideration over the weekend. One glaringg fact emerged. It has made me reconsider so of the aspects of my original idea as well as the actual working of the geller field. I had originally said that the Geller field attracted matter from the matterium to is. I now see that this is a mistake. I will try to explain it below. On its face, warp travel would apear to violate the first law of Thermodynamics...Energy (matter) can neither be created or destroyed. This in effect makes the universe a closed system from which we can not escape. But rather than thinking of a ship entering the warp as escaping from the matterium, what if we consider it as being displaced from the matterium. Displacement takes place all the time. Let us use as an exaample a boat floating on a body of water. The boat floats by displacing the water around it. It does not destroy the water, but instead moves it out of its way. This is a very simplified explanation, but should do for the puroses of this discussion.
If the ship were to spring a leak or a hole was torn in the hull, the water would try to return to its natural position (run back into the ship). The ship would sink as the water forced its way back into its natural position. How does this relate to the the warp and ships enetering the warp?The concept of displacement with regards to a vessel in the warp differs slightly from the ship example in that the force of gravity which would be pulling on the ship in the water becomes an attractive force attempting to pull the matter of the vessel back into the matterium. The energy field created by the warp engines acts as a "hull" to support the vessel in the warp. The warp energy displaced by the vessel wants to flow back into the position currently occupied by the ship and the matterium is attempting to draw the vessel back into the matterium. Of course the Hull created by the warp engines discharge is not a permanent one. As it disipates, the ship woud be forced back (sink) into the matterium as the warp rushes back into the position it was displaced from. It is almost a kind of reverse instability from what warp entities encounter in the matteriumThis degrading of the "hull" created by the warp field means that ships without geller fields will only be able to travel short distances before having to transition back into the matterium. Ships without geller fields act like boats on the water. There are relegated to operating on the "surface" of the warp (near warp). What about vessels with Geller Fields?As we have seen above, a geller field is not necessary for a ship to travel in the warp. What it does doe though is make warp travel practical. The amount of distance that may be travelled by ships without Geller Fields is minute compaired to that of vessels with active geller fields. There is also the risk of mutations that can occur through cummulative jumps taken on vessels not protected by a Geller Field. A Geller Field acts as a reality stabilizer, but only so far that it keeps the warp from interacting with the matter from the matterium contained within it. The Geller Fields true "magic" lies in the fact that it tricks the matterium and the warp into forgetting about the matter contained inside of it. It allows the vessel to achieve a kind of neutral boyancy within the warp (like a submarine in a liquid medium). Like a submarine, the Geller Field allows a ship to travel "deeper" into the warp. This allows for an increase in the rate of travel as well as the distance can be traveled. How do Space Hulks form?As a vessel in the materium is pulled upon by the matterium, so to vessels without active Geller Fields would exert an attractive force upon each other as well. If they are close enough, they might be pulled together to form a greater whole. This process of accretion could take place several time, leading to hulks made up of may vessels. I see hulk developement occuring in the deep warp rather than the near warp. If a vessel were to lose its geller field or be operating without a geller field in the near warp, it would invariably fall back towards the matterium and wind up as a derelict vessel somewhere in real space. This of course is in a static warp simulation. Withits currents and other oddities, there is a chance that a ship from the near warp could be pulled into the deep warp...a kind of reality undertow that drags it into the deep warp. How do Hulks re-enter the MatteriumThe attractive force between the matterium and vessels without active Geller Fields diminishes with distance, much like a planet orbiting a star. Even though the force of gravity does not change, its effect on bodies at greater distance from it is diminished. It may be that the attractive force between the vessel and the matterium is insufficient to overcome the currents or other forces in the warp acting on the ship. As a hulk begins to accumulate more vessels though, the attracting force becomes greater. This may allow the hulk to overcome the resistance and move closer to the matterium. Other factors may also cause hulks to draw closer to the matterium. As there are currents in the warp that can drag a vessel down into the deep warp, there may also be currents that well up out of the depths and depositvessels or other objects from the deep warp in the near warp. Once in the near warp, the hulk will begin to sink towards the matterium, till it transitions back into realspace. This probably happens near (populated) star systems, because they exert they greats amount of attractive force...bother through the gravity well they generate and the consentual reality caused by the sentient inhabitans. Why does a Hulk phase back into the Warp?I still feel that this is caused by the warp taint (if you will) that the vessels of the hulk pick up while in the warp. The original matter of the materium has been slightly changed, maybe even acquiring particles or some other form of energy from the warp. If we go with the basic premace that energy (matter) can neither be created or destroyed, the matterium will attempt to displace this "foreign" energy source back into the warp. of course since it is an intergral part of the Hulk, it can carry the the hulk back into the warp with it. This creates a kind of yoyo or push and pull effect betwen the warp and the matterium, where each trys to pull the part of the Hulk which made up of its energy while trying to push or displace that which is foreign to it. Kage, this is about as unscientific as I think I can make it without the points becoming completely incomprehensible.
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Post by Philip on Dec 6, 2004 11:30:33 GMT -5
Kind of, but not really. By your definition boundary space is just a little bit before you get into the 'warp' proper, and it's the 'warp proper' that you travel through when you engage the warp drives. This is not the case with my own approach. In quick ditty format: - Etheric = astral space = close reflection in which the 'laws' of reality are closely paralleled even though you're technically within the immaterium. It essentially operates as 'astral space' in such game universes as Shadowrun, the Near Umbra of Mage the Ascension, etc.
- Lower Manifold = A 'thermocline' to use the terms used in another thread. The impinging of a 'higher dimension' onto the fabric of the warp creating a barrier between the 'matterium' and the 'immaterium' (despite the etheric). Ultimately linked to the upper manifold.
- Barrier Space = Torison space = The place where warp ships go when they engage their warp drive. Energetic realm influenced by the manifold spaces, ergo other names as 'universe space' (lower) and 'god space' (upper). This is the 'Sea of Souls', the Empyream; the place through which ships travel and where the laws of reality unravel as one moves between the manifold spaces.
- Upper Manifold = Another 'thermocline', but an ultimate one. Hence the term 'Rubicon' (borrowing from Terran history).
The important difference here is that normal warp travel occurs through 'barrier space', and it is not the 'area' (or whatever) at which spacehulks phase in and out of reality. It has 'depth', yes, and with increasing depth comes increasing fraying of relity as described earlier. Tau drives still enter Barrier/Torison, though they tend to skip along the lower manifold. (Reason = hand-wave away...?!?) So you have divided the warp into 4 spaces? As in each one of these could be defined as a separate space? But it could be a misinterpretation on my part; Hmm, the things you describe here I always put down to ‘stuff that’s in the warp’ in the same way the materium has stars and planets, so the warp has areas that are different from each other (dead pools, storms etc). For example, the planet with many people affects the warp’s flow, but it also changes it making it denser and deeper (and seriously dangerous to starships). I image that just as humans have to live on planets; some of the larger daemons have to live/ reside inside these denser areas of the warp around planets, and explains why Psykers can make contact. Stars, due to their massive gravity, appear as great swirling cyclones in the warp and I image planets to be much the same, but rougher if populated. Regular travelled warp routes also become denser, turbulent and brighter, and is an area where smaller daemons manifest. In a round about way, my ideas do kinda match up to yours but probably not as you first thought.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 6, 2004 22:00:42 GMT -5
Then you'll have to bring yourself to forgive me. It is inescapable that I forget which threads some things were said and, sometimes, even which boards. It is unlikely that we are all going to be working with the same basic assumptions even if we can agree on some of the various features! <grin> Glad to see it. Phillip has previously suggested this. One problem is that it becomes an automatic means by which a ship can precipitate back out of the warp be a 'switched off' Geller Field... If this idea is moved forward with - and it's not too unreasonable (i.e. the inherent return of objects to consensus-based reality, or that closest to it) - then it is definitely necessary to have a boundary between the matterium and the immaterium. In simple terms, no ship will naturally return to the matterium from the warp by simple means of 'displacement'. The cork analogy, yes. Turn off the Geller Field and you spring back into reality. A wonderful protective mechanism. (Yes, you would not necessarily 'spring'.) At the moment it seems like a red herring. While on the surface it explains Space Hulks, it destroys much of the earlier discussion in other threads that actually moved us forward. This is one of those features. You can only push yourself so deep, meaning that it is more a feature of the power of the push than the refinement of the push, as it were. (E.g. "Bang bang get you far, ugh!" rather than calculated jumps, etc.) Hold two balls a foot apart, then drop them. Why don't they stick together before they hit the ground? As you say, it's a matter of proximity, force of attraction and, of course, the proportionately larger pull of the matterium... But you're saying that spacehulks only form from ships with active Geller Fields...? Agreed. Strongly disagree. The "Cork Approach" has never found favour with me since it defines the matterium as the lowest energy, in essence. As above, agreed. This the whole idea that it becomes corrupted by 'warp particles' and therefore has a tendency to return to the warp with the tendency defined as a function of size...? Again, I disagree with the Cork Approach, although some argue that the Farseer descriptions would show broad agreement with this... Indeed, McNeill's recent Navigator article takes the approach that Navigators actually manipulate the warp currents. (I find this tedious since it oversimplifies things yet again, but there we go.) 'Fluff' has in various places - Execution Hour and Shadow Point, as well as Farseer IIRC - suggest that the greater the gravity the less likely that this is to occur. Furthermore, consensual reality would tend to reinforce any 'barrier' betwee the matterium and the immaterium. While a hokey mechanic in some regards, it does work. The 'natural state' has just changed... Again, though, I severely dislike he Cork Approach. Just in case you missed that. Although we do have the idea that the the immaterium is, in the long-term, innimicable to the warp. I personally see this as dissolution and particulate release rather than 'globular' release (e.g. release as simple molecules, charged particles rather than as release of ship). Guess you're not used to thinking in analogies... (Just kidding!) Not really, but I'm also not just lumping it into two with an interface. Rather there are several barriers and an interface. It's just the interface is large and that's where the majority of the activity takes place. They are more like a sub-set to the big cahoonie that is the warp. The manifolds are more 'barriers', kind of like flat 'dimensions' represented as a 'mirrored surface' (although you don't strictly see a mirror; the imagery is not that important to me so I haven't put a great deal of thought into what someone might see if they looked at it). Boundary/Torision is just your Boundary space, ish, but the implication of your Boundary space is that it is interstitial... the actual travel occurs in the warp, something that I think of as the deepest depths, place of the leviathon and something that no ship would tend to go... Not entirey sure how you got that from what was posted, so methinks that there has been a misreading. I guess it would just complicate matters to indicate that the manifold spaces - the 'barriers', flatlands or whatever - are actually dimpled by gravity, etc., and affect warp currents, eddies and so forth. In many ways akin to your dead pools, just without specific reference to the fact that there must be 'anti-time' in the warp (or whatever it was), which would not be in keeping with the word and spirit of the 'fluff'... (Althouhgh some might think that the height of hypocrisy! ) That works when you take the idea that it is 'matterium' and 'immaterium' alone and, therefore, the warp must necessarily be Chaos. Different image, rough same concept. Of course, one must remember that Chaos is note universal through the warp, but rather a corruption of the warp. I roughly know what you're interpretation is from what you've previously mentioned.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 7, 2004 11:31:28 GMT -5
Phillip has previously suggested this. One problem is that it becomes an automatic means by which a ship can precipitate back out of the warp be a 'switched off' Geller Field. If this idea is moved forward with - and it's not too unreasonable (i.e. the inherent return of objects to consensus-based reality, or that closest to it) - then it is definitely necessary to have a boundary between the matterium and the immaterium. The need for a boundary goes without saying. This is the transition point where one ends and one begins... for all intensive purposes the gauntlet from MtA and other White Wolf systems. The cork analogy, yes. Turn off the Geller Field and you spring back into reality. A wonderful protective mechanism. (Yes, you would not necessarily 'spring'.) At the moment it seems like a red herring. While on the surface it explains Space Hulks, it destroys much of the earlier discussion in other threads that actually moved us forward. My concept of displacement was not really intended to make ships pop back into reality. If this is how it was preceived I apologize. I'm actually working on a different concept that may better explain the relationship. The "cork" theory was highly simplified and I Guess in a static enviroment, it may well "pop" you back into reality. Of course this model does not take into account warp currents, velocity of the ship as it interfaces with the boundary and a host of other variables....which I hope to explain more thoutoughly and clearly in my new concept. Hold two balls a foot apart, then drop them. Why don't they stick together before they hit the ground? As you say, it's a matter of proximity, force of attraction and, of course, the proportionately larger pull of the matterium... But you're saying that spacehulks only form from ships with active Geller Fields...? No just the opposite. I'm sorry if I didn't state it more clearly before. I originally though that an active Geller Field would be required for the formation of a space hulk. After giving more thought to what a geller field actually was, I came to realize that a ship with an active Geller field would not attract other ships. A geller field hides the fact that there is matter from the matterium inside its bubble...although, this theory is going to be slightly changed in my new concept. This the whole idea that it becomes corrupted by 'warp particles' and therefore has a tendency to return to the warp with the tendency defined as a function of size...? It is not really a function of size with regards to the ship returning to the warp. It is instead a function of how corrupted by "warp particles" the hulk has become. Sort of like the idea of corruption of the soul...a person can be slightly corrupt or (slightly grey soul) or on the far end of the sacle completely corrupted and evil (black soul)... I know that the "warp corruption" is not necessarily evil, I'm just using the previous as an example. If you prefer you can think of it as the amount of radiation absorbed by an object. The longer the duration or the stronger the source of radiation, then the higher the dose absorbed by the object (generally). Again, I disagree with the Cork Approach, although some argue that the Farseer descriptions would show broad agreement with this... Indeed, McNeill's recent Navigator article takes the approach that Navigators actually manipulate the warp currents. (I find this tedious since it oversimplifies things yet again, but there we go.) I won't argue this point since I'm revising my theory anyway. Furthermore, consensual reality would tend to reinforce any 'barrier' between the matterium and the immaterium. I won't argue this point since I'm going back to the original idea of the barrier (gauntlet) between the matterium and immaterium (warp) being thinner or weaker the further you move from large gravity wells or populations (interstellar space). Although we do have the idea that the the immaterium is, in the long-term, innimicable to the warp. I personally see this as dissolution and particulate release rather than 'globular' release (e.g. release as simple molecules, charged particles rather than as release of ship). Hmmm....dissolution or particulate release back into the immaterium almost sounds scientific. Actually if we go with the example of radiation, this is exactly what happens. Radioactive matterial releases ionized particles...this is how it "contaminates" other objects around it. Of course different radioactive matterials have different half-lifes...which determines how long it will take for the radiation to disipate (how long before the radioactive matterial stops throwing off ionized particles). So the "warp corruption (contamination)" will over time leach out of the hulk and return to the immaterium. Of course to do so, these charge particles will need to pass through the barrier between the matterium and the immaterium (the cusp, the verge or the warp interface). The charged particles hitting the barrier will give up some of their energy to it. This may destabilize or weaken the barrier in that given area. This could allow the hulk to slip back through the weakend barrier to the near warp. A warp drive after all weakens the barrier between the matterium and the warp through a controled discharge of energy. The dissolution of the particulate from a hulk is more random, but if the conditions are right, it could mimic this energy discharge. This may explain the randomness of how a hulk slips in and out of the matterium. As with radiation, over time the warp contamination of the hulk will lessen (as more particulate is released back into the warp). This will make the transitions back to the warp more rare. Given enough time the hulk may no longer be contaminated and remain in matterium.
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Post by Philip on Dec 7, 2004 14:05:06 GMT -5
That works when you take the idea that it is 'matterium' and 'immaterium' alone and, therefore, the warp must necessarily be Chaos. I don’t see the warp as being chaos rather the daemons of chaos reside there, in the same way a human resides on earth, but all matter isn’t human. As for barriers, instead of different dimensions I imagine them in the same way as earth has an atmosphere that destroys asteroids. Where the warp is very dense, it changes and becomes different, within these dense areas is where daemons live, but the dense medium isn’t daemonic, it is the patterns and structures that this turbulent dense medium forms under the influence of the human (and others) mind. As such, a ‘warp world’ (a mirror of a real world) has its own barrier, and would stop craft from entering. I also imagine that the dense warp has another important effect as a powerful compression force of warp matter that enables the larger daemons to take form, and if they leave this dense area it affects them badly (much like a deep sea angler fish swells up it brought up to the surface, larger warp entities can disperse). But just are there are fish in the upper layers of the sea, so there are minor daemons in the fluid and fast flowing warp that matches open space that ships use to get about. As for the Chaos gods themselves, I see them as the linking of all the warp worlds, which in a way act as neurons in the warp gods mind. This means the Chaos gods are each as large as the universe, and they all share the same ‘neural network’ but each has its own aspect (like running multiple programs on one computer).
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Post by Destecado on Dec 7, 2004 17:53:42 GMT -5
The Displacement Theory (hereto and forever after known as the Cork Theory thanks to Kage ), though flawed may have pointed me in the direction of a model for explaining the warp interactions that may work. For purposes of this model, I am leaving behind previous explanations that describe the warp as being like an ocean. This model instead references the warp in terms of a planetary atmosphere. In this model a vessel traveling through the warp are replaced by an airplane. The planetary gravity represents the attractive force between the matterium and matter from the matterium in the warp (i.e. ships, derelicts, space hulks). Unlike previous models that define the warp in terms of a fluid medium, whose density (and therefore pressure) increase with its depth, this models explores the thinning of reality (the air becoming thinner) the further one travels from ground level (the matterium). For the purposes of this model the surface of the planet will be the boundary (transition point) between the warp and the matterium. Landmasses represent the thicker (hardened) boundary that exists around star systems are large populations (the warp zone). The oceans are the weaker boundary that exists in interstellar space. Sea level is the transition point from the matterium into the warp. We have discussed in great detail the effects of the warp interacting with matter from the matterium causing it to degrade. There are however, other forces that we have touched upon, but not explored. These are the internal pressures on a system. An example of these forces can be seen if attach a normal compact disk to the end of a power drill (with variable speeds). As the disk spins faster and faster, the speed will begin to exceed the structural integrity of the CD and it will actually fly apart. WARNING: This is highly dangerous. Don’t try at home without the proper supervision…or if you’re over 18 decent medical coverage.The more complex a system is; the greater the potential for breakdown. Imagine now if all of the laws governing a system were removed. It would begin to tear itself apart from the inside…even as outside forces were acting upon it. Things Fall Apart; the Center Cannot Hold. This concept will be addressed in greater detail in the section dealing with Geller Fields. WARP DRIVEA warp drive works by destabilizing or weakening the boundary between the Matterium and Immaterium enough for a ship to pass through. This is done through a large energy discharge. It is similar to breaking up the surface tension of water by pumping air into the bottom of the pool and having it bubble to the surface. Breaking the surface tension makes it easier for divers to enter the water. If you were to dive into a still body of water from any great height (from which you would gain speed as you fell), it would feel significantly harder than diving into an aerated pool. Warp drives will allow a ship to enter the warp, but they are of little use again until the ship is ready to re-enter the matterium. Warp drives are needed to re-enter the matterium? This may be the great limiter that we have been looking for in our discussion. Surface tension works both ways. A ship must use its Warp Drive to both enter and exit warp space. Of course this is statement is not an absolute. There are areas such as warp rifts where the boundary is already ruptured or interstellar space where the boundary is thinner and a ship might be able to slip back into the matterium. Of course both of these carry their own risks. Warp rifts tend to be unstable, so using one to access the warp may be dangerous. Although the “surface tension” of the boundary in interstellar space is weaker, it does still have substance. A ship trying to enter at too great a speed may be damaged or destroyed on impact or even bounce of back into the warp. WARP TRAVEL No Geller FieldVessels without Geller Fields are relegated to operating within the Near Warp. If we imagine an airplane within a planetary atmosphere, vessels without Geller Fields would represent planes that operated below altitudes where pressurized cabins are required. The air pressure and gravity decrease the further away you are from the planetary body. So to in the warp, the laws governing the matterium begin diminish the further you move away from the matterium. Calculated JumpsFor this model I am using the assumption that modes of propulsion that work inside of the matterium do not work inside the warp. Base on my own readings and previous discussions on this board, this seems the most likely possibility. Geller Fields may be a form of propulsion in the warp (among other things), but we will discuss that later. A vessel’s warp drive allows it to enter the immatterium (warp), but is not a means of propulsion. Since a ships thrusters (or other propulsion systems) do not work in the immatterium vessels without Geller Fields are reliant on the velocity they attain before entering the warp. They would therefore most likely be calculated jumps. A calculated jump would be very similar to calculating a ballistic trajectory. The ship acts like a ballistic projectile. The jump is calculated to hit a certain point in the matterium a given distance away from the starting point at a given velocity. Gravity in this situation would refer to the attractive force between the matterium and the vessel. Corrections for windage that take place in normal trajectory calculations would instead be replaced by corrections for warp currents or other anomalies in the near warp. The range of calculated jumps (on ships without Geller Fields) is limited by the velocity that the vessel can obtain prior to entering the warp as well as the trajectory that is able to be plotted. Gleller FieldThe property of a Geller Field to act as “reality stabilizer” has been covered previously. It was thought that it protected the reality inside from the warp, but it also looks as if it protects the reality inside from itself. What this means is that it acts like a pressurized cabin...but instead of holding in air it holds in the laws that govern the little piece of the matterium encapsulated within its bubble. Another aspect of the Geller Field is that it creates propulsion for a ship within the warp. This concept was touched on in a previous post. The Geller Field acts like an Electromagnetic (solar) Sail, which can use the energy currents in the warp to propel the vessel encapsulated inside. Calculate JumpsIt goes without saying that a ship equipped with a Geller Field and a navigator can travel pretty much any where in the warp it wants. Based on the scarcity of navigators (as a function of the ratio of trained navigators to the number of ships operating in the Imperium), many vessels equipped with Geller Fields may still be forced to make calculated jumps. A vessel equipped with Geller Field might be able to make a calculated jump further than a vessel with no Geller Field. The reason for this is due to the propulsion generated by the Geller Field. The distances would still be shorter than that possible by a navigator. Re-entering the MatteriumGoing back to our model with the surface of the Earth representing the transition point between the Matterium and the Immatterium, trying to re-enter on land would be next to impossible. The land or the denser part of the boundary lies within the warp zone of a star. Trying to transition through in such an area could lead to extensive damage to the ship, complete annihilation of the vessel or depending on the trajectory, the ship might bounce off the boundary and wind up traveling deeper into the warp. The oceans of the surface which represent the boundary that lies outside the warp zone are the best bet for re-entry. Still if a ship misjudges its trajectory or the warp Engines do not fire when they are suppose to, the ship could wind up with much the same fates as the one trying to jump back into real space inside the warp zone. Other ConsiderationsThe model presented above is quite simplistic. It mentions warp anomalies, but does not go into great detail. Let us take a little time to look at these. Warp StormsWarp Storms bear a close resemblance to Tornadoes and Water Funnels. These weather patterns create cyclonic winds that pull objects and air from close to the ground up into the stratosphere. Similar occurrences in the warp could suck a ship not equipped with a Geller Field higher into the warp. The may also cause enough damage to a ship with an active Geller Field, that the field collapses. Shear ForcesThis would be similar to wind shear or deep sea currents that well up to the surface. It could carry objects from the deep warp into the near warp, but could also add velocity to derelicts. This velocity, depending on their trajectory may help to carry them nearer or futher away from the matterium. Warp CurrentsAs with the shear forces above, the warp currents could act like thermals in the air, carrying derelicts further up in the warp (giving them added velocity) or they could be like down drafts, which carry the derelicts closer to the matterium. I’m going to stop there for now, please let me know what you think of the Theory so far. If possible point out areas where it needs to be tweeked, expanded upon or amended.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 9, 2004 20:14:46 GMT -5
The Displacement Theory (hereto and forever after known as the Cork Theory thanks to Kage )... Silly names are the way forward! For purposes of this model, I am leaving behind previous explanations that describe the warp as being like an ocean. That's just a nicety based upon the fact that much of the 'imagery' behind warp drive, as well as Naval conflict, is based around that of the Age of Sail. Anyway... This model instead references the warp in terms of a planetary atmosphere. Well, we shall see how it works out then... The planetary gravity represents the attractive force between the matterium and matter from the matterium in the warp... Again, I'm not fond of this although it does work. I've spent the past few days thinking about it and the potential it has, and as long as the barrier remains in place between the warp and the matterium (e.g. lower manifold or 'gauntlet' to borrow a WoD-ism) it does actually have some interesting ramifications. So, might be introducing this to my own version shortly... Just need to see how it plays out in a few more thought exercises. ...this models explores the thinning of reality (the air becoming thinner) the further one travels from ground level (the matterium). When it comes down to it, at this point in the post it is just inverting the image. Sea level is the transition point from the matterium into the warp. All of which is very remiscent of the ocean-based analogy that I used, which I'll double-post here for interest sake (e.g. "The Bluffer's Guide to Warp Travel").
And incidentally, isn't the horizontal rule a much nicer way of dividing up a post than the use of horrendous colour!? ;D
A warp drive works by destabilizing or weakening the boundary between the Matterium and Immaterium enough for a ship to pass through. This is done through a large energy discharge. It is similar to breaking up the surface tension of water... In considering your approach, you may wish to have a think about Simon Bellisarius and his 'navigation' through the 'flaws in reality' (or whatever that book called them) to jump into the warp... While I wouldn't use it for everything it becomes an obvious means by which 'natural warp gates' can be integrated into the modern 'fluff' without getting too... problematic. But that's probably a bit OffT for this bit... A ship must use its Warp Drive to both enter and exit warp space. I didn't realise that this was a problem. I have always worked upon the principle - and indeed have stated it, erm, somewhere (maybe on Portent) - that the energy is just to breach the barrier and, therefore, it would be needed both ways. The reason that I had a problem with the Cork Idea that Phillip originally described, and which has been described previously on other boards, is that it argued for the automatic return of matter to the matterium in the original form (i.e. the ship). There are areas such as warp rifts where the boundary is already ruptured or interstellar space where the boundary is thinner and a ship might be able to slip back into the matterium. These are the 'natural warp gates' mentioned previously... Vessels without Geller Fields are relegated to operating within the Near Warp. As previously described, yes. Only problem is that with this type of 'drive' you're not going to have any control of where you go: you are entirely at the mercy of the currents and eddies within the warp. They are also more susceptible to the action of the warp. Geller Fields may be a form of propulsion in the warp (among other things), but we will discuss that later. This is the theory that both myself and zholud, seeminly, subscribe to. A vessel’s warp drive allows it to enter the immatterium (warp), but is not a means of propulsion. Once again, this is what I have always worked upon. Since a ships thrusters (or other propulsion systems) do not work in the immatterium vessels without Geller Fields are reliant on the velocity they attain before entering the warp. Erm... warp currents are the 'fluff' described means of propulsion not the inherent momentum of the ship. They would therefore most likely be calculated jumps. A calculated jump would be very similar to calculating a ballistic trajectory. This makes it sound a tad too simple, at least compared to the descriptions of the process of calculated jumps elsewhere on this board... Although continuing to read, the basic process is similar, it's just the language which is a bit gnarly. The bit that I don't like, and which doesn't inherently sound too much like the 'fluff', is that jump distance is based as a function of 'starting velocity' rather than the warp itself and the limitations of 'calculation'. but instead of holding in air it holds in the laws that govern the little piece of the matterium encapsulated within its bubble. While that is broadly how I see it working, I never like to see it written down. I don't know, it just seems... wrong. :-\ ...many vessels equipped with Geller Fields may still be forced to make calculated jumps. The working assumption is that all ships of the Imperium have Geller Fields.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 9, 2004 20:19:22 GMT -5
As promised, here is the "Bluffer's Guide to Warp Travel" as detailed some years ago (and which has not been modified with my changing ideas):
The Warp may be likened directly to the sea which, due to the actions of non-local sources such as the moon and atmospheric disturbances, can become 'choppy' or storm-wracked. This is the Torison Distortion Factor (TDF) and, as with sea travel, it can make the journey difficult, dangerous or impossible. Further, certain routes are made easier through the presence of prevailing winds and/or currents, which is a similar process to the energy exchange between the order cells.
Now, let us consider a ship (Warp ship) that wishes to travel from one island (star system) to another, or, more specifically, to a city (planet) on that island. The passengers and crew must then journey from the home city (planet) to where the ship may set sail (enter the Warp). The analogy falls slightly here, suffice to say that the ship can only really set sail when the ship is at the ocean (the Warp Zone or threshold to the order cell). Once there, the navigator (computer system or Navigator) then decides upon the best route to take given the local conditions and unfurls the sails (activates the Warp drives, bounces off the Submanifold event horizon and precipitates into Torison space and activates the electromagnetic sails). Then the journey begins in earnest, the crew altering the sails, tacking in unfavourable conditions and so forth, to make the best time between the origin and destination (altering the electromagnetic sails, skipping from one inter-order cell energy exchange to another, etc.). The journey requires constant reference to navigation aids to prevent the ship going off course (either by precipitating out of the warp for computerised journeys, or the Navigator checking the position with their unique abilities).
On the journey, a number of 'dangers' can be encountered. Although rare, the ship might meet up with other ships (either other ships or even space hulks). The ship might enter a storm, requiring that the sails might need to be unfurled (deactivation of electromagnetic sails), or a safe anchor point found (precipitating into primespace while the Torison distortion passes). Indigenous life forms may also be encountered, from the benign to the not-so-benign, to the malevolent.
The ship will eventually arrive at it's destination island (system) and, when it reaches the land, is forced to stop (precipitate into realspace). If no other alternatives exist, then the crew/passengers must make their way to the city (planet) via some other means (sublight travel). However, some islands have navigable rivers (Warp gates), which either lead to the city in question, or at least take you further into the island without having to walk.
And that is, in essence, all there is to Warp travel...
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