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Post by CELS on Mar 4, 2005 14:33:02 GMT -5
Parden my recent absence in this thread. It turns out that after my week in africa, I had to spend most of my home-vacation with friends, or playing the bestest computer RPG of all time. And after that, I spent a week snowboarding far, far away from internet. Anyway, I'm back. Let's get it on. The suggestion is, ultimately, that the adeptus mechanicus maintains a stranglehold on the highest forms of technology, regardless of their origin. So what are the 'highest forms of technology', and where and how do they draw the line? Seems to me that the only realistic way is to force some kind of public registration, and then have a sort of tech-police that makes sure no one's sneaking through loop holes or ignoring the registration alltogether. Agreed. Exactly. My essay has the Explorators doing this, but now I'm thinking there should be another division, and that the Explorators only help them out from time to time. While AM are united, individual group always try to be unique. This causes them to make multiple unique habitation structures present in most imperial worlds. *grin* I wouldn't think that the tech priests would be that insecure Fortress sounds extremely military to me. That would be a wonder indeed, unless the city is made out of paper and wood Yes, it is important... I have some ideas, but since I tend to incorporate rather than exclude they tend to revolve around the nature of knowledge, the conceptualisation of the Machine Spirit, etc. I'd be very interested in hearing about those ideas. You're right, Sojourner, in that it is very important, and I plan to write something about this myself. Especially on the nature of the Machine God and the ideals of the Cult Mechanicus (Man and machine!!) I don't recall my previous statements on this matter, but I suspect that a Machine Spirit should be defined through the presence of a 'soul' or warp presence.
By the way, I'm still hoping that someone will surprise me by actually writing a coherent text on the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and their function in the Imperium. *fingers crossed* ;D
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Post by Zholud on Mar 5, 2005 15:50:17 GMT -5
Fortress sounds extremely military to me. They were named that way in the fluff. I cannot recall either in early Necromunda (Confrontation) or in Watson’s Space Marine. Taking to the notion that n all non-Mechanicus worlds the missions have to be an enclave, the name shrine-fortress is filling well IMHO… That would be a wonder indeed, unless the city is made out of paper and wood kites used by ninjas in medieval Japan weren’t that light… and WWII planners where relatively heavy. I’m sure that flying giant kites are quite possible, especially if you have constantly high velocity winds… and remember – don’t go too deep in believability – you’re talking about universe of far future, where clowns in power armour fight on swords, whose energy comes from mind power… By the way, I'm still hoping that someone will surprise me by actually writing a coherent text on the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and their function in the Imperium. *fingers crossed* ;D What about using my artisan piece as a base?
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Post by CELS on Mar 5, 2005 16:22:01 GMT -5
They were named that way in the fluff. I cannot recall either in early Necromunda (Confrontation) or in Watson’s Space Marine. Taking to the notion that n all non-Mechanicus worlds the missions have to be an enclave, the name shrine-fortress is filling well IMHO… Well, you're wrong (j/k) Judging by all the flak I got from trying to design some Knight Walkers, I would be surprised if people had no problems with this But hey, I'm all for suspending realism from time to time. As you say, we're talking about guys in power armour fighting with swords and combat knives. Erm, no offence, since I liked what you wrote, but... that would be like using a description of a Leman Russ as a base for a text on the structure of the Imperial Guard I'm talking about a text that aims to describe all the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus. From techno-police to education to... whatever.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 5, 2005 16:27:51 GMT -5
Well, that's just an abstraction to help explain a general stance. If you're after a blow by blow account of which artefacts, technologies or theories that are considered to be the dominion of the adeptus mechanicus then we're going to be here for some time. This is why I just tend to use the broad guideline of GTL10 and, therefore, the theories (etc.) that are required to produce the appropriate 'gadgets'.
But let's try this from an 'artefact' perspective. Powered armour is GTL10, but bolters are GTL8 (though not all the ammunition is; some comes from higher GTL's) and, ironically, lasguns GTL9. The 'technology' to produce Marines themselves is GTL10+ (haven't specifically modelled this). Power swords are GTL11, but that is in the scope of 'special research' (i.e. STC or actual research), thereby creating a potential difference between those that are produced by the adeptus mechanicus and the GTL12 versions that are 'archaeotech' (i.e. Eisenhorn's power sword without a physical blade).
And so on. Anti-grav technologies become problematic since it depends on what you believe as to how common they are, although I'd still put them at around GTL10-11 (this is a change from the normal GTL12, which would put them firmly in the realm of archaeotech).
Again, though, we can go around and around in giving examples of technologies... All this tends to mean is that, for example, Anargo could produce both bolters and lasguns. But it cannot produce Space Marine armour... It also has all the (scientific) theories that it needs to produce bolters and lasguns, but has not made the 'leap' to produce something equivalent to Marine power armour.
Of course, just because a world has the technology to produce something doesn't mean that it is going to.
There is never going to be a completely perfect system of monitoring. That is the way of the Imperium and a feature found permissible, in terms of the image at least, with other organisations. The adeptus terra is going to be able to monitor the 'science' of a world and, should something be flagged, be able to take appropriate measures to moderate things...
Of course, the one problem here is that it creates a situation whereby there should be technological advancement in the Imperium. This is reasonable in the long term. At the moment, however, you've got a static situation appropriate for the 40k game universe. After all, the reason that the Imperium has survived or ten millennia is because, well, GW says so.
The main problem is that if you take the "new 'fluff'" there are problems, given the revision of the Machine God to revolve around the organic. Basically robots in a more squidgey and palatable form, but there we go.
The fantasy approach, which is remarkably simplistic. I'm going to advocate that we keep the suite of definitions.
Keep those fingers crossed... I'll create something when I've managed to balance the 101 other things that are braying for my attention at the moment.
Kage
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Post by CELS on Mar 6, 2005 5:58:28 GMT -5
Well, that's just an abstraction to help explain a general stance. If you're after a blow by blow account of which artefacts, technologies or theories that are considered to be the dominion of the adeptus mechanicus then we're going to be here for some time. I'm not looking for a detailed account, just a general idea of how they go ahead in determining what items are their dominion, and how they go about enforcing that. Alright, so let's say the Adeptus Mechanicus 'owns' the scientific theories to build lasguns. What if a world has developed this technology by themselves, without the aid of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Would they still need the AM's permission to manufacture such lasguns? Of course not. That was the point. Unless, of course, the powers that be are effective in stopping this technological advancement, which the Adeptus Mechanicus often is. To say that there is no technological advancement in the Imperium is self-evidently wrong, according to the fluff. It's just that it takes a very, very long time, and in some areas of technology, progress would be considered techno-heresy. Unrealistic, yes- but there is a logic to it. I'm not sure which "new 'fluff'" you are talking about now. Could you please point me in the right direction? Sorry, I don't follow. "Suite of definitions"? Fantastic
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 6, 2005 6:07:11 GMT -5
I don't think in many cases such permission would be explicitly required. However I daresay that in most cases an Adeptus Mechanicus representative would drop in to point out what they do and do not consider acceptable. Most likely with some scathing reproach about 'blasphemy' and 'ignorant barbarian filth'.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 6, 2005 10:39:04 GMT -5
How does any group or individual decide what is 'theirs' or 'mine'? As to the enforcement, I would imagine that is the 'job' of all TechPriests when aware of 'technoheresy' to report it to their superiors. As to who actually does the 'thing', whatever that might be (killing, assimilation, etc.), then perhaps a sub-group even if it doesn't appear strictly necessary. E.g. alternativess such as simply introduced an advanced virus into cogitators, or some advanced science to monkey around with memories, etc. All of this would be at the disposal of the adeptus mechanicus as well as merely hiring local thugs to do it. It isn't necessary to have a galaxy-spanning arm of the adeptus mechanicus - or any Imperial organisation for that matter - to handle a problem of this nature. Well, that's the technofantasy 'fluff' for you! Well, I would say that they don't "own" the theories or the technlogy behind the lasgun, but if they did develop it openly? Censure. If the technology was under development, then one would imagine that the program started to go awry... problems with equipment, supplies, etc. Pressure would be placed upon the funding bodies of local government, accidents would befall key personnel and their families, etc. Only when these fail are more serious actions taken, i.e. destruction of key property and personnel, extreme censure of the government in question (i.e. restricting any 'required' technologies that they haven't developed) blah blah... Again, there are many ways that a 'thing' can be achieved. I believe it is called 'begging the question', or something like that. The circular assumptions required to make it work merely because it is said to work. But everyone who knows anything about the 40k 'fluff' is more than aware of that situation and, to a given greater or less extent, accepts that. The universal laws themselves and, of course, the servitor mallet that is being used on the 'fluff' that you advocate... See the previously posted definitions of 'Machine Spirit' rather than the newer concentration on servitors as a supposed answer. Kage
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Post by Tynesh on Mar 7, 2005 15:28:36 GMT -5
On the manufacture of tech not controlled by the AdMech...
Could it even happen? Would a planet be able to make their own. Remember we are talking about an organisation that controls all tech and learning.
Workers do not need to know what or how the item they are building works (think Thailand China etc and the electronics they make for the West)
I dont think that many would hve the abilities to create such items without some form of AM support, either direct assistance or very easy to follow instuctions
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 7, 2005 16:05:51 GMT -5
Total Mechanicus control is impossible. It would make them by far the most numerous and widespread organisation in the Imperium. This is almost certainly not the case.
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Post by CELS on Mar 7, 2005 17:34:12 GMT -5
How does any group or individual decide what is 'theirs' or 'mine'? Depends In other words, you're saying that the Tech Priests do not actively enforce their 'monopoly'. I'm definitely going to suggest a sub-division. It fits with the whole paranoid setting of the Imperium, in my opinion. Whether this sub-division handles their problems directly or in a more subtle manner... depends. The 'servitor mallet', if you're talking about what I think you are, is about fear of soulless robots. Servitors have souls, and are much, much cheaper than robots with machine spirits. That's why servitors are used instead of robots. Does this make sense? Well, no, but that's an interpretation that is consistent with the fluff. And trying to get the Cult Mechanicus to make sense is hopeless anyway... Remember we are talking about an organisation that controls all tech and learning. I would disagree with that. Obviously, the Schola Progenium controls learning to some degree, and there is nothing to suggest that the Schola is controlled by the AM. Furthermore, I believe the ASP has taken the stance that the Adeptus Terra does not control all learning in the Imperium. There are private organisations, and there are educational organisations supported by individual world governments. Does the AM control all technology? Again, I think not. They control a lot of the really advanced technology, most notably warp drive technology, but not all technology. That's true. Well, that would depend on how you see 40k history. If you take some of the fluff literally, and believe that the entire human civilisation fell into barbarism and stone age technology in the Age of Strife, then it might make sense that all worlds need AM support. If you agree that most worlds probably did not go back to the stone age in the Age of Strife, then there's no reason why all worlds would need AM support to construct machines. IMO. Total Mechanicus control is impossible. It would make them by far the most numerous and widespread organisation in the Imperium. This is almost certainly not the case. Agreed.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 8, 2005 7:46:27 GMT -5
It cannot control human nature, though. With limitations and strictures in place, as well as the supposed suspicion or fear of technology, progress could be significantly retarded. Given that most worlds of the Imperium, again if you are to believe the 'fluff', are in a state of barbarity, there is a great "distance" to go before they are ever going to come to a point of acquring a level of understanding that is going to push the boundaries of the adeptus mechanicus. Only those worlds that have maitnained fo a significant eriod of time the higher technological levels and understanding could do that, and then they are ultimately more attached to the adeptus mechanicus or not through the use of frachises, etc. What does begger belief, for me, is that they maintain control on all technological knowledge. I think that it is telling that whenever you have a character in the 'fluff' that needs to make the plot work they always have more information than the 'fluff' says they should... Or, at least, the overall Image of the 'fluff'. Nope, I'm going to go with Sojourner and CELS on this one. Yes, but that in no way proves the point. In the case of high levels of technology that the adeptus mechanicus 'controls' this would be the case. Even at lower levels of tech, though that does not mean that the 'overseers' do not understand the technology... Heck, while a world might independently understand a technology doesn't mean that, officially, they must conform to the tenets of the Machine Cult. And, of course, one is surprised that the common-as-muck servitors - thinly veiled robots! - are not used for mass production! (Oh, but that would of course violate the 'machine spirit', whatever that might be! ) That is not at all what I was saying. I merely suggestion that perhaps it is not strictly necessary to create another organisation of jack-boot wearing, guilded 'technoguard' or whatever to do so. The adeptus mechanicus already have quite a few resources at their disposal that they could use, up to an including local resources. If it is still deemed necessary? Then fair enough. I just think that creating another 'army type' might not be entirely the way to go. (Erm, not suggesting that it was strictly your suggestion, but I can just see people arguing that it would make a good wargame plot to have a legion of these things descend upon a world of the Imperium for 'technoheresy' or some such.) I'm going to suggest otherwise, for the moment. It's... too obvious/a cliche/whatever term you want to use. Plus, remember that the whole adeptus mechanicus is paranoid. Then again, one can imagine Adepts scrolling through paper after paper of technical reports, etc. I'm just leery of the traditional "It's an army!" approach. Whether this sub-division handles their problems directly or in a more subtle manner... depends. Nope... the point is that it also doesn't entirely make sense for the adeptus mechanicus, but it does make sense for the Imperium. If you believe that suspicion of technology is going to last - somehow! - for over 15 millennia... Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 8, 2005 8:40:52 GMT -5
That is, however, an extremely good idea. Mecha-nazis in the 41st millennium, anyone?
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Post by CELS on Mar 8, 2005 10:48:24 GMT -5
I just think that creating another 'army type' might not be entirely the way to go. (Erm, not suggesting that it was strictly your suggestion, but I can just see people arguing that it would make a good wargame plot to have a legion of these things descend upon a world of the Imperium for 'technoheresy' or some such.) You are quite right that it was not my suggestion. I was thinking more along the lines of FBI or CIA. LoL Not exactly suspicion of technology. More fear of the weakness of computers and robots and internets, and a veneration of 'holy machines' and the link between man and machine.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 8, 2005 18:05:03 GMT -5
Veneration of machines... Only for the adeptus mechanicus, and then even that is debateable to an extent (veneration of calculators?). Fear of weakness... That is, of coure, dubious to the extreme. The only reason that it works is because 'GW says so'. As long as it's not another army - - then perhaps if done with care. Still seems to be a function of the local adeptus mechanicus infrastructure, with each collegia monitoring it's own area of expertise but there we go. That way you're more likely to get more 'in fighting' than not, but that might not be of interest to some... Kage
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Post by Zholud on Mar 9, 2005 10:11:51 GMT -5
Judging by all the flak I got from trying to design some Knight Walkers, I would be surprised if people had no problems with this That’s why it is in another sector Seriously, according to that rules, I’m unsure whether I can get an ordinary kite without contra-grav that still flies …but I saw it does! Erm, no offence, since I liked what you wrote, but... that would be like using a description of a Leman Russ as a base for a text on the structure of the Imperial Guard No offence at all. However, I mean not description of kite but concept of fortress/enclave/shrine/whatever and artisans. This is not even a description of tanks and mobile warfare as a base for a text on the structure of the Imperial Guard. It is a description of specialised unit in his role as a base for a text on different units… I'm talking about a text that aims to describe all the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus. From techno-police to education to... whatever. is tech police that peaceful?
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