|
Post by Philip on Mar 9, 2005 11:22:19 GMT -5
The Adeptus Mechanicus revere knowledge, and all technology, not just metal but also biological.
As for control, I always figured that the Ad-Mec control the higher orders of technology, like warp drives, anti/ contra-grav, (all via powerfie….hmm), bio-engineering etc.. All the technologies that give real power in 40K are controlled by the Ad-Mec.
Lesser technology can be made on a world, but if a world gets too advanced then the Ad-Mec would step in (unless they are already there!). The reason they don’t really have to do this is because the advanced technology that the Ad-Mec have is just that: advanced. It is beyond any single world to recreate, that knowledge is the remnants of the DAoT understanding.
For a practical example: our world isn’t very 40K, and it would have little technology of real interest the great and powerful Ad-Mec. The Ad-Mec would intervene if we stepped up a few gears but already there are areas that would cause concern to the Ad-Mec and it’s not our technology level, rather it’s lacking’ and how it fits in with the world infrastructure: our reliance on the inter-net, mobile phone, general lawlessness (freedom).
The Ad-Mec could shut down the net very easily with advanced viruses, em bust bombs etc. knocking out all communication in a day, then they would be free to move in and divide and conquer.
If the Ad-Mec know they can do it, then they know that Xenos could do it too, so these areas would have to be addressed.
The Ad-Mec would rather see a ‘low tech world resistant to Chaos’ than a ‘med tech one open to abuse’. They can protect a low tech world, but a dispersed med tech would fall too quickly.
As for independent high tech human worlds: No, the technology needed to make it ‘high tech’ in 40K is too complex, it can’t be made by a single world or even a group.
Just because it’s assumed to be easy and inevitable to have FTL drives etc. in other sci-fi doesn’t mean it will hold true for 40K.
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Mar 9, 2005 14:44:33 GMT -5
The Adeptus Mechanicus revere knowledge, and all technology, not just metal but also biological. I guess most of the fellow forumers will agree with that. To some extent at least. There are different adepts among Mechanicus… Lesser technology can be made on a world, but if a world gets too advanced then the Ad-Mec would step in (unless they are already there!). The reason they don’t really have to do this is because the advanced technology that the Ad-Mec have is just that: advanced. It is beyond any single world to recreate, that knowledge is the remnants of the DAoT understanding. I’d say it can be recreated with enough time and effort. What the AM does – limits time and discourages efforts to seek for new ways. However, saying that none can do was has been done at least once is too powerful…
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 9, 2005 17:55:33 GMT -5
This has been my point from the very beginning and, if anything, has swung the over way merely because of the constant ramble about the presence of servitors. I merely request that some form of 'historical event', whether a change of Paradigm on Terra or even some form of Inquisitorial/ sentorum imperialis convention which dictated the shift away from almost any form of 'robotic' technology towards the servitor. Indeed, one could arguably see the shift occurring before the Age of Apostasy and reinforced by it given the prating of the adeptus ministorum. Again as stated numerously before. Glad to see that there is some forward movement! (I.e. In other words to what I believe... <grin> Just kidding.) The idealisation of technology of the D/GAoT is all good and well, but let's not buy too much into it. The Imperium is in some regards already more advanced than that vaunted period (i.e. psyker technologies) and has the technology to mimic and produce some parts of that technology if imperfectly... And that's just what they 'release' to the Imperium. Indeed. As above. I'm going to disagree with that since it doesn't bear up to scrutiny in 'general'. That a world might not be presently capable of producing a given artefact is a function of interstellar commerce (i.e. you produce what you're good at producing and import what you are not) rather than anything else.
It is not assumed to be such in the 40k universe. Nothing has been said to indicate that it is simple, just that it is not impossible as is often inferred from the 40k 'fluff' by many fans.
Exactly. It's just easier to not do it than it is to do it.
Kage
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Mar 9, 2005 18:23:18 GMT -5
The only sticking point in my statements seems to be the idea that the DAoT tech can’t be remade by a single/ small group of worlds. This is really my own additions and musings, I put all the higher technologies out of reach by mortal man as they were designed by AI (the Ad-Mec still has one ), and not just any old AI, massive world consuming AI systems plugged into everything, cores the size of mountains, powered by fusion (plasma) reactors and having the processing power and understanding of a, err, ‘a god’. It is these DAoT AI that designed and understood warp drives etc, not humans. Without these particular AIs the higher technology is out of reach. I think the Ad-Mec would notice a world trying to build one of these AI world systems, and a world would have to build one of these before they can even begin to design a warp drive from scratch. Philip Note: Tau, hmm… I bet they are building one right now!
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Mar 11, 2005 10:12:24 GMT -5
The only sticking point in my statements seems to be the idea that the DAoT tech can’t be remade by a single/ small group of worlds. …And only superpowers may make good guns. Because they are big and development of a gun costs a small fortune. However, tiny Belgium (in comparison with Russia, US, Germany…) is one of the leaders on the market. The point is bigger does not mean better Thus it can be remade with enough time and efforts applied. It is these DAoT AI that designed and understood warp drives etc, not humans. And Navigators were created by this AI? I don’t buy it, it is just too akin to bog-standard ‘emperor is end-all’ used by many, but with AI replacing Him on Terra. As for understanding – to develop/discover something does not equal to understand something. When sailor uses wind he does not questions why the wind blows in that direction with that speed. The same may be true for warp drives.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 11, 2005 15:31:36 GMT -5
This is really my own additions and musings, I put all the higher technologies out of reach by mortal man as they were designed by AI... That will the problem then, as with many meanderings and revisions of the 'fluff' that seem to be made! It is arguably consistent with the 'fluff' of the Golden/Stone/Iron Men "debacle", but then again it is just that: a debacle, a means by which some problems with the 'fluff' could be swept under the carpet with some more fairly meaningless 'fluff'. ... And here's an important aside. It is only meaningless and non-sensical because GW have decided to make it such. The sense and meaning is attributed by us, the fans of the universe... So, in this regard we're definitely not going to be going with the idea that the AIs designed everything. It's a good way of trimming the 'fluff' to make it fit, agreed, but also one of the more tedious that can be taken. Sorry, that's just MO... the Ad-Mec still has one... I would say seveal, but there we go... understanding of a, err, ‘a god’. Which makes the Emperor 'fluff' regarding the whole Great Crusade, the adeptus mechanicus and the Omnissiah, etc., a joke. Again, GW and BL need to put their heads together and create a "current state of the 'fluff'". Given the direction that they have been taking the game, or rather the gaming universe, recently they might end up losing a small fraction of their fans but, heck, what do they care. They're in it for the money. Only the fans lose out ince they're in it for the joys of the universe... oh, and the wargame. But that's an side. Without these particular AIs the higher technology is out of reach. I think the Ad-Mec would notice a world trying to build one of these AI world systems, and a world would have to build one of these before they can even begin to design a warp drive from scratch. Erm, didn't you get dizzy constructing that argument!? It is entirely circular and gets into the whole sophistry gig... Kage
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Mar 12, 2005 9:53:22 GMT -5
Zholud wrote: [on Mar 9th, 2005, 6:23pm, Philip wrote: The only sticking point in my statements seems to be the idea that the DAoT tech can’t be remade by a single/ small group of worlds.]
…And only superpowers may make good guns. Because they are big and development of a gun costs a small fortune. However, tiny Belgium (in comparison with Russia, US, Germany…) is one of the leaders on the market. The point is bigger does not mean better Thus it can be remade with enough time and efforts applied.
That’s a little unfair; I did say that higher technology was out of reach, not the low end stuff. An world can compete at the low end (just like any country can compete at the low end)
A better analogy would be the USA’s space programme, I know Belgium isn’t in the same league when it comes to space, they just don’t have the same resources as the USA.
What I’m saying in this fluff shedding idea is that the ‘World AI’ systems are an even bigger drain of resources that any space programme ever could be. A single would doesn’t have enough resources mostly in support infrastructure to build one.
My World AI systems aren’t just a big computer, they are more like an artificial consciousness housed in a ‘power field’ based alternate reality (a similar universe distorting field the stasis field is). In this alternate reality, physics is different and what is possible is different (it is way beyond our understanding), but powering such a system needs colossal resources.
After all the DAoT technicians are mucking about with the very fabric of the universe in a god like way.
Kage wrote: [on Mar 9th, 2005, 6:23pm, Philip wrote: Without these particular AIs the higher technology is out of reach. I think the Ad-Mec would notice a world trying to build one of these AI world systems, and a world would have to build one of these before they can even begin to design a warp drive from scratch.]
Erm, didn't you get dizzy constructing that argument!? It is entirely circular and gets into the whole sophistry gig...
Circular? What’s circular about the basic premise?
Basically: designing a warp drive is to complex for the human mind, so a machine designed it instead. You seem to use ‘circular’ as a way to dismiss ideas you find unpalatable, even when they are clearly liner (not that there's anything wrong with a circular argument!).
Also, Can we move on and skip the anti-GW rhetoric and concentrate on making this work?
Edit: Added World AI = Artilect Ironmen (nRobot) = Artiloids (agents of the Artilect).
The Emperor fluff idea (outline of basic concepts); The World AI systems are god like in what they do, but they are not Psykers and do not understand how Psykers actually work. The World Al can design a warp drive, design machine navigators (calculated jumps) based on known phenomena, but the machine can’t feel the warp, can see the warp (only boarder space). To summarise the machine can drop you into the warp but then you are on your own, to the machine the ship just disappears from reality, any machines on board are blind throughout the whole trip (they make turns etc. based on a precalcualted route, they follow the pattern and timing of turns laid out in the precalc, and do not change in-flight, if they was a sudden warp anomaly for example that the route goes though, the ship would plough straight into it because the machine can’t see)
Note: The Emperor is above an Alpha class Psyker, and as such is even more powerful than a ‘World AI’ system, and has a deeper understanding of the warp and the universe because he can see it, his mind can go where the machine can not: His mind is greater and more powerful.
The fall – leading into the age of strife All this mucking about with warp travel, the experiments needed to make it work, brought to light that humans could feel the warp, were the machine could not. This was how the Navigator programme first came into existence and this Navigators programme would have been a ‘human run’ programme because the machine couldn’t help. Unfortunately, all this warp contact awoke something dormant/ latent ability in humans, that wasn’t obvious at first. Some Human became ‘Psykers’ and susceptible to possession by warp entities in areas where warp jumps had occurred, the high the traffic rate the higher the rate of possessions.
Eventually the possession rate increased dramatically as warp travel increased dramatically (but with a delay so it wasn’t immediately obvious), and the World AI on Mars decided that humans in the Sol system was ‘infected’ by a contagion it couldn’t see or detect, and tried to lock down civilization, until it could figure out what to do. It was this locking down that cause the war, and lets face it you can’t lock down an Alpha class Psyker.
STC and the AI All colonised world had the STC coupled with an AI (not sentient like the Mars system, but damn good in an administrator role) in all cases where the rate of possession increases the AI lock down rate increases, as the AI tries to ‘save’ the remaining colonists from ‘infection’, the problem was that the remaining colonists always had one or two who also ‘went Psyker’ (probably brought on by the stress of the lock down, and sudden lack of freedom and fear of what was happening).
The Psykers broke out and challenged the machine, the machine tried to lock down and the Alphas but failed. The AIs where destroyed one by one, but the whole of civilization was run by the AI, its loss meant everything went with it: Communications (like loose the internets route servers), banking, libraries and the STC designs were electronically stored.
Humans could gain access to the raw data, but it was like ‘machine code’ and only the most technical could understand it (even STC design were like CAD).
Many worlds fell back to a barbaric state worshipping the new ‘Gods’, on worlds where the Alpha Psykers who challenged the machine perished with the death of the AI’ these world recovered at huge cost to humanity, but the world where chaotic and a complete mess. Humans had to learn many things from scratch, like medicine, surgery, physics and engineering. They no had a deep distrust of the machine and of Psykers (or rather the fellow man). It is this distrust that made it very difficult for humans to work together as they never knew when a co-worker would turn.
So began the age of strife.
As for the Mars AI, it was challenged by the Emperor himself, and that is why it remains to this day. The Emperor was the only Psyker who could control the vast powers his body contained, so he was the only one that could spare the machine.
Golden Men = Psykers, powerful Alphas who became living ‘gods’ on the fallen world.
Stone Men = Humans without Psyker powers (who relied to much on machines and were ‘saved’ by the golden men [Psykers] – according the subsequent scripture written by the Psykers who enslaved them and force them to worship them as gods)
Iron Men = Agents of the AI, who where destroyed in droves by the Alpha Psykers. The Machine stood no chance against the fury of the Alphas.
Finial note: With the collapse of human civilization (well, the galaxy spanning empire bit anyway) and the cessation of much warp travel due to storms brought about by the Alphas use of extreme amounts of power, the possession rate dropped off suddenly, but more noticeably the conversion of humans to Psykers dropped off just a quickly.
Warp travel, or rather exposure to the warp about the Psyker Phenomena in humans. The more warp travel the more Psykers that appear. As such a high priority is placed on ‘Psyker control’. The high lords of Terra know that the greater the Imperium the more Psykers will turn up.
This is all part of the Emperour’s plan, to return humanity to a state of DAoT but without the machine is such a prominent role. Basically allow warp travel by making everyone a Psyker.
Ok, seems nice and neat, any ideas to improve this outline?
Philip
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Mar 12, 2005 10:20:50 GMT -5
The above ties into the official time line (link ups in brackets), though the official time line is biased towards the Emperor’s interests.
1-15 Age of Terra. Humanity dominates Earth. Civilizations come and go. The Solar System is colonised. Mankind lives on mars and the moons of Jupiter, Saturn and Neptune.
15-18 Age of Technology. Mankind begins to colonize the stars using sub-light spacecraft. At first only nearby systems can be reached and the colonies established on them must survive as independent states since they are seperated from Earth by up to 10 generations of travel. (First ‘World AI’ built by lesser AI CAD systems on Mars, World AI makes the STC/ AI systems used in colonisation – independent ‘nodes’)
18-22 Age of Technology. Invention of the Warp-Drive accelerates colonising of the galaxy. Federations and Empires are founded. First aliens encountered and first Alien Wars are fought. First human psykers scientifically proven to exist. Psykers begin to appear throughout human worlds. (World AI on Mars invents the Warp drive – a nightmare of distorted physics beyond human comprehension)
22-25 Age of Technology. First Navigators are born allowing human spaceships to make even longer, quicker warp-jumps. Mankind enters a golden age of of enlighenment as scientific and technological progress accelerates. Human worlds unite and non-aggression pacts are secured with dozens of alien races. (First Psykers turns up here with the increase in warp travel, it takes many years for the turn to occur so the link is not spotted at first)
25-26 Age of Strife. Terribe warp-storms interrupt interstellar travel. Sporadic at first, the sorms eventually prevent any warp-jumps from being made. The incidence of human mutation increases rapidly. Mankind enters a dark period of anarchy and despair. (World AI locks down, Alphas go nuts and fight back against the machine, the energy they suck into the materium causes huge storms in the warp. The Emperor goes to Mars and challenges, but spares the World AI on Mars. They come to an understanding and the Emperor is recognised as the ‘new template’ for humanity)
26-30 Age of Strife. Human worlds ripped apart by civil wars, revolts, alien predation and invasion. Human psykers and other mutants dominate some worlds and these rapidly fall prey to warp-creatures. Humanity is on the brink of destruction. (Sudden loss of the World AI/ STC due to Alpha attack causes civilization to collapse and to be taken over by the Alphas (often possessed), with reduced travel the Psykers turn rate falls of and the world is left in a barbaric state without any Psyker ‘gods’ fro guidance – humanity starts again)
30-present Age of Imperium. Earth is conquered by the Emperor and enters and alliance with the Mechanicum of Mars. Finally, the warp-storms abate and interstellar travel is possible again. The Emperor builds the Astronomican and creates the Space Marine Legions. Human worlds reunited by the Emperor in a Great Crusade that lasts for two hundred years. (Emperor took Mars a long time ago, but this is where he ‘officially’ made a pact around this time. With the help of the Ad-Mec of Mars and the now hidden World AI, the Emperor starts the holy crusade to reclaim human space and re-establish the Imperium and warp travel (warp travel which will once again increase the Humans to Psyker conversion rate).
History rewritten to hide the link between warp travel/ jumps and Psyker turn rate.
Philip
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 12, 2005 13:49:59 GMT -5
<cracks knuckles> The problem is that, ultimtely, you attribute it to the lack of AI. There is no problem with a world having an insufficiently developed infrastructure to be able to independently develop high technologies. Furthermore, if the Imperium is 'dependent' upon the distribution of goods (tithe) as well as 'trade' (nominally "free") then this situation is compounded, e.g. you specialise at what you're good at producing and therefore lack the developed ('rounded') infrastructure. And that's part of the problem. As with the power fields, the STC:CS, etc., you are "shedding" the 'fluff'. And this is what I don't particularly like: both in terms of the canonical 'fluff' (or revision thereof) and application to the ASP: the seeming supposition that advancement is predicated around the development of "AI" (again, I urge the utilisation of the term "MI" to indicate a true machine intelligence rather than something that is 'artificial', as in programmed). It also assumes that MI must necessarily be large, world-dominating and hugely expensive, i.e. " A single would doesn’t have enough resources mostly in support infrastructure to build one." There are too many assumptions here for my liking. As well you know I tend to reply to these things sequentially, both a flaw an advantage, so at this point I'm going to say this: I do not like the 'fluff' revision that you are attempting, and it will not be applied to the ASP as you are currently arguing. More so since it draws upon a tapestry of other bits of 'fluff' revision that have similarly not found favour, e.g. 'power fields'. Only when you consider and accept your power field arguments, which we do not at present or, indeed, are we likely to in the near future. The entire argument. I'm not too sure at which point the merry-go-round starts, but it essentially seems to go of the assumption that warp drive (and other ideas, i.e. power fields) are too complex for humans to understand --> MIs are required to understand advanced technology --> all advanced technology is the product of MI, including themselves --> as the G/DAoT was so advanced, the adeptus mechanicus holds no hope of understanding advanced technology --> since MIs are required to undertand advanced technology --> since there are no MIs in the 40k universe, at least in the Imperium except perhaps on Mars, technological development is not possible since technology is too advanced for the human mind. Add in the whole 'power field' arguments, then the 'nRobots', etc., and you get into the aforementioned tapesty which is perhaps internally consistent but bears little resemblance to the 'fluff' except in the potential end member. As to whether I use the term 'circular' to refer to something unpalatable? No, that's not true. I find the argument to inherently circular and I also dislike the idea. Sorry. You've spent a great deal of time on it, seemingly, but it destroys the 40k universe for me. They are linear only insofar as the follow on from the assumptions that you make, but some of those assumptions are inherently circular and self-fulfilling. They are further supported by similar premises that I do not find 'fluffy' (except in your revision) and which are not being used, e.g. nRobots (cool idea, taken to extremes), power fields (cool idea, taken to extremes)... Yes, we can skip the anti-GW rhetoric even though it wasn't mentioned then, just presumed. If you want to make your own 'fluff' work in terms of itself, then fine. I will say this again, it doesn't work here since it relies upon all the other stuff that you've posted all of which similarly revises 'fluff' for no good reason other than, well, it works how you say it works when you believe all the assumptions that you make. The warp can be artificially imaged when in the warp. Thus the machine can see, even if it might not have the processing power - or whatever - to make appropriate changes in an effective time. The assumption that machines cannot see the warp is one of yours (and possibly Star Wars! ), not necessarily that of the 'fluff'. By your definition all psykers are in this feature 'more powerful'. Only if you define 'greatness' and 'power' by seeing the warp. That would be your definition and one that I would find limiting. This is the reason that you need to differentiate between AI, PI, MI, etc. This works, but it is hard to extend this over fifteen millennia... Golden Men, Stone Men, etc... Interesting approach there. The evolution of Humanity into a psyker race has nothing to do with warp travel. For the ASP? I'm afraid it is not going to be used for the ASP since there are no 'nRobots', 'power field theory' as you define it is not being used, and some of the assumptions are also not valid according to the 'fluff'. You once had an entire thread change over to a discussion that the ASP was my vision of the 40k universe. In a similar means it is not your revision of the 40k universe. Enough said. Feel free to post this premise in General but it is not appropriate at this juncture. Kage
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Mar 12, 2005 14:29:02 GMT -5
I see this fluff I’ve written as an omnipotent view of what really happened and what is going on under the surface of the Imperium. The point where is diverges from stories in minor, and could easily be explained away.
I wrote it here, in response to the idea that the GW fluff was poorly thought out, I disagree, it just isn’t described in detail so I though I’d post one that does explain (to show how easy it is to link it all together).
All these musings would fit, even with a slight tinkering to round of the rough edges.
I agree that 15 millennia is a long time for humans to remain as they are, this is described by the lack of a true Artilect running the show. All the original designs were done on Mars by the one true Artilect, the Omnissiah.
As for the whole argument being circular: I think humans become more reliant of technology, they already use CAD, and eventually powerful systems will help in the design or even greater systems. The Artilect is just the culmination of social and technological integration, expressed as the artilect system which would become known as the Omnissiah, the Omnissiah ran the whole DAoTshow. In designing and reefing the infrastructure of human space, it started to develop radical ideas on improving travel and communications. I think early warp understanding was actually aimed at FTL communications (through the warp) rather than travel, but the warp drive may have originally been designed as a carrier in information not as a means of transport.
The Omnisire isn’t the Emperor.
This does mean that the Adeptus Mechanicus has full STC, but as I said elsewhere the Ad-Mec aren’t searching from the STC to learn from (they already know what is in the STC), they are on a search and destroy mission.
Anyway it hits all the major bases, but misses some of the minor bases.
|
|
|
Post by ErnestBorgnine on Mar 12, 2005 16:21:54 GMT -5
Or, the search for STCs is akin to the special forces team's mission in Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon. The US could read the enemy ciphers, but if you used that information it would reveal that you'd done so... unless there were another plausible explanation. So knowing where a convoy would be, they'd rush off to pretend to be coastal lookouts who might have theoretically spotted the convoy, etc. etc.
Similarly, if you want to reintroduce technology without answering annoying questions from the High Lords about why exactly you've been sitting on the tech in question for a few millennia, "rediscovering a lost STC" is very convenient.
|
|
|
Post by Zholud on Mar 12, 2005 16:59:04 GMT -5
That’s a little unfair; I did say that higher technology was out of reach, not the low end stuff. An world can compete at the low end (just like any country can compete at the low end) A better analogy would be the USA’s space programme, I know Belgium isn’t in the same league when it comes to space, they just don’t have the same resources as the USA. Ok, present day space programme is just a pompous show remained from cold war times – superpowers pumped money there just because opponent did. If there have been and a priori predicted profit/gain from it – Belgium might have taken its part there. Counter-example, Ukraine belongs to top-10 countries in production of space ships now… if you know such commercial projects as sea lunch – Ukraine gives carrier rockets there. And Ukraine is far from being a supremacy, thus bigger means better approach can be incorrect as well. But back to 40k After all the DAoT technicians are mucking about with the very fabric of the universe in a god like way. Any proofs? Were there superior to Eldar, or Eldar at that moment were way superior to them today (I mean 40k ). I agree that DAoT scientists knew a lot, but they were far from gods, as I see gods. Edit: Added World AI = Artilect Ironmen (nRobot) = Artiloids (agents of the Artilect). Make concepts first, names later. Plus I dislike them. Robots are robots, not artiloids (loaded with art?). all IMHO, as usual. The World AI systems are god like in what they do List what they do, please. Create worlds = no, at least no mentioned facts; predict future = no; manipulate with time-space = no more than we do… The World AI systems are god like in what they don’tTo summarise the machine can drop you into the warp but then you are on your own, Imperium ships without mega-computers do that everyday… Note: The Emperor is above an Alpha class Psyker, and as such is even more powerful than a ‘World AI’ system, and has a deeper understanding of the warp and the universe because he can see it, his mind can go where the machine can not: His mind is greater and more powerful. Mankind had Emperor before WAI (World AI), the former is superior – what for the latter is created in the first place? All this mucking about with warp travel, the experiments needed to make it work, brought to light that humans could feel the warp, were the machine could not. This was how the Navigator programme first came into existence and this Navigators programme would have been a ‘human run’ programme because the machine couldn’t help. Unfortunately, all this warp contact awoke something dormant/ latent ability in humans, that wasn’t obvious at first. Some Human became ‘Psykers’ Presence in warp activates psychic abilities… yep, this is possible (not as a fact by as a hypothesis). Eventually the possession rate increased dramatically as warp travel increased dramatically (but with a delay so it wasn’t immediately obvious), and the World AI on Mars decided that humans in the Sol system was ‘infected’ by a contagion it couldn’t see or detect, and tried to lock down civilization, I see some potential in the idea. All colonised world had the STC coupled with an AI (not sentient like the Mars system Why DAoT period Mars is end-all? Why they are better than Earth, Moon, Ganymede on thousand planets, colonised by that time? Why Mars has not rules the mankind? Many worlds fell back to a barbaric state worshipping the new ‘Gods’, on worlds where the Alpha Psykers who challenged the machine perished with the death of the AI Or worshipped machines, where psykers perished… nukes are damn hard to withstand even for a psyker As for the Mars AI, it was challenged by the Emperor himself, and that is why it remains to this day. The Emperor was the only Psyker who could control the vast powers his body contained, so he was the only one that could spare the machine. So Emperor in M26 goes to Mars, confronts and outfits WAI (in same trial as with Russ, I guess ), then returns to Terra, which is in anarchy for net 3.5 millennia and waits… WAI also waits for something, while the Mars cult emerges… strange behaviour of both major players. Golden Men = Psykers, powerful Alphas who became living ‘gods’ on the fallen world. Stone Men = Humans without Psyker powers (who relied to much on machines and were ‘saved’ by the golden men [Psykers] – according the subsequent scripture written by the Psykers who enslaved them and force them to worship them as gods) Iron Men = Agents of the AI, who where destroyed in droves by the Alpha Psykers. The Machine stood no chance against the fury of the Alphas. No fluff ever said that Golden men led Stone men against Iron men… This is all part of the Emperour’s plan, to return humanity to a state of DAoT but without the machine is such a prominent role. Basically allow warp travel by making everyone a Psyker. Why the Emperor needed that? Not enough psykers to eat?
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 12, 2005 16:59:27 GMT -5
Which is a good goal to have. Again, I do not agree with the assumptions made - nor do I feel that they are either necessary or necessarily 'fluffy' - that the concept is based around. E.g. I do not like the Omnius take off, nor the premise of the nRobots, the extension of the 'power field' idea to "black box" everything thereby making anything possible, the arguably non-'fluffy' limitations of the 'machine sight' etc. What you also have to understand is that the project walks a very fine line in terms of interpretation of the 40k universe. How to integrate the various editions while attempting to remain true to the overall essence... How to introduce new 'fluff' which fills in the gaps without complete revision and the introduction and extension of ideas to 'ludicrous' extremes... And, just as importantly, how to maintain the interest of members who all have different interpretations, some of which hark back to the original universe and not the most recent revision. So, again: no... Not, at least, as currently argued. The 'fluff' is easy to link together with minor alterations, true. Again, though, complete revision is not necessary or desired. So it is the extent of the changes that you post... And if you feel that "anti-GW" comments are inappropriate? Fine. Consider it a mere balance to the mutual back-slapping that occurs on other forums... I did not say that what you have posted is not internally consistent, just that it is based off a skein of assumptions and premises that are not necessarily 'fluffy'. Which is reliant upon the assumption that 'warp drives' (high tech) is too complex for humans to understand, thereby needing MI. Again, no. As used in the current terminology, no. But that's only because the 'fluff' has revised... The Emperor was only ever attributed as the Omnissiah, not the Machine God. And, of course, it is only within the more recent 'fluff' (the past few editions) that Omnissiah has become synonymous with 'Machine God'. Even a break down of the name shows that this is problematic... No 'artilects'... no nRobots... no 'black boxing' with "power field" theory, etc. These concepts have already been shown to find great resistance by members in the project, and that includes people other than myself. In other words, stay within the 'fluff' as much as possible. Work within its boundaries without revising things completely, as you have done. If this is actually where GW are taking the 'fluff' then I have a sneaking suspicion that many of the "old hats" will discard the new universe in favour of the old one. And if these 'changes' were incorporated into the ASP then... Well, there's no point in the project itself. Exactly... the answers are already there without the requirement of inventing new races, technologies, etc., when sheer human nature works. I think it would be reasonable to say that the eldar, both in their post-Fall state but more particularly in their pre-Fall state, were far in advanced of the G/DAoT technologies. (Hmmn... that's kind of like saying "PIN Number", but there we go... ) Furthermore, the whole "Artilect" thing is just another version of the "C'tan were responsible for the G/DAoT" approach. The tension between that and psykers is simplistic at best, putting humans in general onto the sidelines as mere spectators. Anything that does that is generally something that I would find... less interesting. Although balanced against that is Philip's general approach to argue entirely from the "latest edition", in this case 4E. Thus the idea of 'artificial/calculated' warp travel is lessened. Presumably the Emperor was taking his typical 'back seat' position at the time. Ergo there was no Emperor to the common people... Fair enough. I'll see what other people have to say about this, although I am against the simplistic introduction of "machines ran everything" and humans were 'thick' bystanders. Presumably as a mechanic by which the adeptus mechanicus becomes significant. Another reason that I do not treat this argument with favour. To be fair, the 'fluff' is very... limited... on this topic at least.
Take the discussion to General and leave this thread to a 'fluffy' discussion of the adeptus mechanicus and it's history... (Assuming that the great weight of the members are not against this.) Kage
|
|
|
Post by Philip on Mar 13, 2005 6:54:03 GMT -5
Take the discussion to General and leave this thread to a 'fluffy' discussion of the adeptus mechanicus and it's history... (Assuming that the great weight of the members are not against this.) Discussion on 40K history/ Ad-Mec continued herePhilip
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Mar 13, 2005 13:26:48 GMT -5
Be warned, however, that I shall keep a tighter leash on that and similar threads. While it is fascinating to read someones reinterpretation of the 40k universe, based upon premises that are interesting if not entirely 'fluffy', I do not want to see it siphoning off any creativity that might be best spent elsewhere... Admittedly that is the choice of others, but my choice will be to cut the discussion off...
The premise of Artilects, nRobots, "power field" theory, etc., does not have a place in the ASP just as it has very little place in the 'fluff'.
No more will be said on this matter.
Kage
|
|