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Post by Zholud on Feb 15, 2005 11:17:27 GMT -5
Oh, you guys have plenty of time… I just managed to read it up even in spite I missed just a few days. Here are my mad ramblings on the subject. - Robots – I back CELS here – non-organic robots are extremely rare… way rarer than suggested by old fluff. Thus in terms of ASP I guess not a single operating robot in the sector.
- General issue of old vs. new fluff – while holism is the way to go, we have to decide how to deal with contradictions. Sometimes rant on cheap new fluff vs. old gospel is not that correct and appropriate… after all no mention of Horus Heresy or traitor marines in the Rogue Trader does not mean it wasn’t known… with robots I guess we may say they were at times of HH but worn off by M41, thus only mention them in history and maybe shift toward servitors.
- Mars – never met mention of jungles there… its Kage imagination I guess
- Stone Men – it the oldest fluff I guess they replaced Golden men and warred Iron men. This meant movement toward barbarism, thus stone age men. In more recent fluff Stone men are clearly silicone-chip computers…
- On Hives – good list of ideas Destecado.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 15, 2005 23:06:09 GMT -5
Robots – I back CELS here – non-organic robots are extremely rare… way rarer than suggested by old fluff. Thus in terms of ASP I guess not a single operating robot in the sector. Severe misinterpretation here with regards to a 'general premise' and specifical application, as always. I'm not at all suggesting that they are 'common' or even necessarily present. I'm just suggesting that the sheer replacement of something can be best explained in terms of adding information rather than subtracting it. There is a very fine line between refining and dumbing down. 40k falls into the latter category. General issue of old vs. new fluff – while holism is the way to go, we have to decide how to deal with contradictions. Sometimes rant on cheap new fluff vs. old gospel is not that correct and appropriate… after all no mention of Horus Heresy or traitor marines in the Rogue Trader does not mean it wasn’t known… with robots I guess we may say they were at times of HH but worn off by M41, thus only mention them in history and maybe shift toward servitors. If it adds to the universe, then fine. If it destracts from it or has someone harping on equally about the 'new' replacing the latter as much as supposedly is harped on about the 'old' staying... Essentially, if the new information adds to the universe without 'dumbing it down' or merely revising it for the sake of genre alterations or revision to base premise for the sake of revision... then it is included. If new 'fluff' creates information where none existed before, then it is included. It is not, however, automatically assumed that the letter of the new 'fluff' exists, otherwise you get into some rather shakey territory. As is the assumption that "RT=Horus Heresy". With specific reference to the point in hand. If you'll forgive the turn of phrase, I don't give a pigs ear whether the legio cybernetica exist or not. As it stands that it something I view as 'wargame' material, since it doesn't change the 'background' (and RPG) considerations beyond the fact that you don't see robots in battle. In the same premise I wouldn't care if the Tech Guard were completely ignored... or titans. (Except when they impinge in interesting implications.) What I am concerned about is the blatant revision of merely ignoring them. It doesn't take very much to incorporate the information in such a way that it adds to the universe. Same thing happens with the Inquisition. You can merely take the approach that the ordo's always existed as they do (boring), say that they happened historically (messy), or keep some aspects of the older organisation for interest (better)... Mars – never met mention of jungles there… its Kage imagination I guess Quite likely. We all do this as part of interpretation. Preference and opinion shading reading and posting. Doesn't change the fact, in the long run, that the adeptus mechanicus and Mars information is completely screw-ball...
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Post by CELS on Feb 23, 2005 4:03:40 GMT -5
On robots, the Legio Cybernetica, and the origin of the Cult Mechanicus. I'm currently talking to Tim Huckelbery from GW USA who is working on a Codex Adeptus Mechanicus. His comments on my essay will obviously have some impact, so I'm on standby for now. Interestingly, he says he has posted my essay on the Games Development forum, whatever that is. Maybe an opportunity to enlighten the GW employees? ;D
Anyway, let's get started on the unexplored areas of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Namely, the non-military divisions. What non-military functions does the Adeptus Mechanicus have, what divisions does it have to cover these, and how do those divisions integrate with the rest of the Imperium? That's the question(s) for now, I think.
One thing we know is that the Adeptus Mechanicus has regulations on most mechanical items, at least in the military side of things. Tanks, guns, armour... The fluff might lead us to believe that this is because the Adeptus Mechanicus maintain some sort of STC copyright. It has been suggested on the ASP however, that the Adeptus Mechanicus regulates all technology, and that everything technological/mechanical must be examined and approved by them. Thus, one of their tasks is to regulate the production of machines and other equipment in the Imperium. What this extends to is anyone's guess. Where does it stop? Are Tech Priests involved in approving the building of sky scrapers? Do they go around approving kitchen knives? Or must it be something mechanical?
What about the production of non-military articles? We know that the STC data found has a lot of information that can be used for non-military activities. IIRC, the Rhino design is based on a tractor. A bit ludicrous, considering the design of the Rhino, but there you go.
Then there's education... Previously, we've discussed whether or not the Schola Progenium is the only form of higher education in the Imperium, and if not, whether or not it is the only form of Imperial education. What about the Collegia Mechanicus? Are these responsible for educating the Imperial citizens, or at least educating and regulating the educational organisations on the Imperial worlds?
And then there's construction. The Imperium probably does not rely entirely on its individual worlds for construction. For example, if the Imperium wants to build a fortress for the Inquisition, or a space station, who do they call? Obviously the Adeptus Mechanicus would be present, but would they do the actual building, or just act as inspectors and advisors?
Your thoughts?
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 23, 2005 18:34:34 GMT -5
Interestingly, he says he has posted my essay on the Games Development forum, whatever that is. Maybe an opportunity to enlighten the GW employees? ;D Let's hope that the Image doesn't become 'fluff' reinforced without justification! Should be interesting to see if anything, well, interesting comes out of it! That's the question(s) for now, I think. <grin> It is the main question, the only things that have only been hinted at. But, yes, let's consider that for the moment. It should be far the more difficult and ultimately more productive and 'new' information that we provide. The fluff might lead us to believe that this is because the Adeptus Mechanicus maintain some sort of STC copyright. It has been suggested on the ASP however, that the Adeptus Mechanicus regulates all technology, and that everything technological/mechanical must be examined and approved by them. Actually, I think you're taking the premise to extremes. While what has been suggested can be taken to this level, it is not necessarily the best thing to do. The suggestion is, ultimately, that the adeptus mechanicus maintains a stranglehold on the highest forms of technology, regardless of their origin. Oh, and that includes the general 'theories' behind them. The method by which this is achieved, if it is achieved at all, is questionable. This would merely allow the Imperium to maintain a level of production that is consistent with many of the 'fluff' descriptions on the production of - unsurprisingly enough - integrated high-tech goods such as tanks... On the other hand, it allows for a number of potentials that not only would reinforce the requirement of the adeptus mechanicus and the more stringent conformance to the rituals of the Machine Cult, but likewise reinforces the nature of those 'high tech' goods such as Marine PA, Terminator armour and all the other gadgets that the 'fluff' likes to concentrate on. In short, it opens up more doors than it closes and remains consistent with the 'fluff' (at least for the most part). It does, however, require that interstellar trade by a viable potential. But if that isn't there then the Imperium doesn't quite work anyway... Thus, one of their tasks is to regulate the production of machines and other equipment in the Imperium. What this extends to is anyone's guess. See the above. One would also imagine that just as their agents of the Inquisition that monitor for 'heresy', there would be those of the adeptus mechanicus that performed similar functions for that organisation. All technology falls under the aegis of the adeptus mechanicus, but that does not mean that they are going to "pursue it" in the same manner. Are Tech Priests involved in approving the building of sky scrapers? Do they go around approving kitchen knives? Or must it be something mechanical? I would say no to all of those... What about the Collegia Mechanicus? Are these responsible for educating the Imperial citizens, or at least educating and regulating the educational organisations on the Imperial worlds? The same reasons for not allowing the adeptus ministorum in on this apply here as well. Kage
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Post by Sikkukkut on Feb 23, 2005 22:43:13 GMT -5
I'm currently talking to Tim Huckelbery from GW USA who is working on a Codex Adeptus Mechanicus. His comments on my essay will obviously have some impact, so I'm on standby for now. Interestingly, he says he has posted my essay on the Games Development forum, whatever that is. Maybe an opportunity to enlighten the GW employees? ;D It's one of the discussion forums on the main GW site that's aimed at people wanting to propose or discuss new ideas for the games.
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Post by Zholud on Feb 25, 2005 7:52:42 GMT -5
On non-military AM Here follows my idea, it is very raw, so add to it. While AM are united, individual group always try to be unique. This causes them to make multiple unique habitation structures present in most imperial worlds. This constructs are named Mechanicus shrine-fortresses. Each artisan that creates such a fortress wants to inspire awe not only of mere folks but of brother Mechanicus. For example in neighbouring sub there is a planet with constant high-velocity winds. AM fortress flies above city without help of contra-grav, using only these winds…. This about giant kite, anchored by adamantium rope.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 25, 2005 9:59:48 GMT -5
That is, in essence, a revamp of a concept post previously to explain the disparate technologies and Imagery associated with Forgeworlds. E.g. technology in all forms are a veneration to the Machine God, and the Cult Mechanicus is all about veneration of the Machine God not only through the construction of artefacts to express the Machine Gods' spirit into the matterium, but also through the furtherment of their knowledge and the understanding of that spirit.
Of course, this runs into the problem of the newest rehash of the machine spirit in, apparently, Codex Space Marines which seemingly has been cobbled together to retroactively affirm the importance of servitors ab initio...
Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 26, 2005 4:26:05 GMT -5
On Philosophy
Anyone done any major thoughts on the philosophy of the machine cult? I can't be bothered to read in detail right now but I don't immediately notice anything great. Very important aspect of the whole, IMO. I have a few ideas in this regard which tie nicely into the general setting and plot hooks of recent times.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 26, 2005 7:55:40 GMT -5
Yes, it is important... I have some ideas, but since I tend to incorporate rather than exclude they tend to revolve around the nature of knowledge, the conceptualisation of the Machine Spirit, etc. That's one of the reasons that I have a problem with this retroactive definition of Machine Spirit being defined through the presence of the organic...
Kage
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Post by Destecado on Feb 26, 2005 10:38:25 GMT -5
On PhilosophyAnyone done any major thoughts on the philosophy of the machine cult? I can't be bothered to read in detail right now but I don't immediately notice anything great. Very important aspect of the whole, IMO. I have a few ideas in this regard which tie nicely into the general setting and plot hooks of recent times. I've been trying to accumulate all of the sources of fluff on the Adeptus Mechanicus that I can find, so that we can create a more cohesive image of the organization. One thing that I came across on the Inquisitor website was a reference to the 16 Universal Laws, that "rule the thinking of a Techpriest and help him understand the nature of life and its relevance to the Machine God, and the ways that a mere mortal can come to comprehendthe Machine God." Unfortunately, the fluff does not list all of the lws, but here is an overview of the ones it does: Fourth Universal Law – Intellect is the Understanding of KnowledgThe ability to understand and use knowledge forms the measure of intellect. It is entirely possible for a sentience to realize the value of knowledge/stimulus and yet possess only simplistic levels of it. It is also possible for an archive or holomat to contain a vast font of knowledge and the understanding thereof without apprehending the value of that knowledge. Neither of these two examples would be rated as possessing intellect by Techpriests. Fifth Universal Law – Sentience is the Basest Form of IntellectThe commonly held trait of sentience is hence only the first ‘tier’ of intellect. Intellect is attained through the acquisition and understanding of knowledge. Sixth Universal Law – Understanding is the True Path to ComprehensionWhat all knowledge leads to is comprehension, a level of intellect that encompasses all the knowledge there is to be understood. Seventh Universal Law – Comprehension is the Key to all ThingsComprehension of the forces of the universe brings with it the keys to reality, the ability to affect any change or creation desired. Eight Universal Law – The Omnissiah Knows All, Comprehends AllThe Omnissiah is the Supreme Being, the entity able to comprehend all knowledge in the universe. It is thus the logic of the Cult Mechanicus that if the Machine God exists (which, of course, it does as far as they are concerned), then all knowledge must already exist, and it is really just a matter of time and effort to put it all into one place. The fact that this Quest for Knowledge has lasted well over ten thousand years doesn’t seem to deter the Techpriests. Eighth Universal Law – The Alien Mechanism is a Perversion of the True PathI’m not sure if the duplication of the numbering system here represents a typo or if this is a more narrow definition of the Eighth Universal Law specifically related to alien technology.The Eighth Universal Law is often known as the Xenos Testamenta, or the Prime Warning. Alien science is twisted and perverse, a corruption of the pure thought of the Machine God. Most aliens enslave Machine Spirits to their will without showing them proper respect, hence their creations are invariably rebellious, dangerous and corrupt– rather like bound Daemons in Mechanicus Lore. The pro-xenos believe that even though it has been corrupted, the knowledge to be found within alien technology, and ancient archeotech for that matter, can be salvaged for the Quest for Knowledge. Thus comprehension of xenos tech is paramount to the continued mission of the Adeptus Mechanicus and should be embraced. Opposed to these thinkers are the anti-xenos, who believe that the corrupted knowledge within alien technology is no different from the knowledge that can be found in honest-to-goodness human technology. They ridicule the idea that somehow aliens could be privy to different knowledge to Humanity, and instead point to the perversions of the Machine God that have been created as lures away from the true path to understanding. There are also those who think that much can be learned from xeno artefacts in the right conditions, but Techpriests are at risk of being immolated in some accident or corrupted by alien ideas. Many forge worlds officially ban the study of alien artefacts; others allow it but only under the most rigorous monitoring and restrictions. Nonetheless many Magos study alien artefacts in secret, hoarding their knowledge for fear of reprisals. Just as with the Inquisition, this conflict can sometimes become physical, and the weight of belief varies widely from one forge world to the next, and may even be influenced by the beliefs of the most senior ranking Magiat at any given time. Thus a pro-xenos inclined Fabricator General of a forge world may instigate several programs of research into alien tech, and direct his Explorators to locate such things for study. By the time the Explorators return, if ever they do, an anti-xenos Fabricator General has ascended to command and the expedition may well be declared heretical and hunted down. The Fifteenth Universal Law – Flesh is Fallible, but Ritual Honors the Machine SpiritOrganic components (people) are weak, forgetful and ultimately expendable for the greater glories of the Machine God. The fallibilities of the flesh can be assuaged through the correctly prescribed rituals to enable the enlightened to interact with the Machine Spirit. To so dishonor a Machine Spirit by not undertaking the correct rituals to honor it is a grave crime, and considered extremely risky with certain spirits, for example failing to under take maintenance rituals on a plasma reactor is sure to end badly. The Sixteenth Universal Law – To Break with Ritual is to Break with FaithTechpriests rely on ritual over understanding, every screw turn and button press is precisely documented for every mechanism they build or use. Many Techpriests believe that the slightest deviation is an invitation for disaster and unleashing uncontrollable forces. Others take a more pragmatic view, believing ritual is mainly there to placate Machine Spirits and it can be hurried or even (horrors!) dispensed with altogether if the circumstances dictate…although the Machine Spirit will have to be appeased later. The Fifteenth and Sixteenth Universal Laws open a window into how the Techpriests approach most situations and deal with unfolding events. They are, on the whole, predictable, unimaginative and low on intuition. Before making an important decision, a Techpriest will always endeavor to seek a precedent that that can accede to – or in their terms, to see if this particular piece of Knowledge has already been discovered. This means that Techpriests are disinclined to rash over emotional reactions, and it is this attitude that gives them their inhuman air, which in many ways serves to separate them from Humanity as much as their physical alterations. This is not to say that Techpriests are without feelings, and certainly they can be angered or feel fear, but as they grow in experience they are more able to detach themselves from these fleshly weaknesses. A Magos several centuries old will make decisions based upon the relevance of the situation to his Quest for Knowledge and the probabilities of this being advanced or hindered. When confronted by an armed man, the threat to the Magos and the Knowledge he has uncovered and may potentially uncover in the future is paramount, and he is likely to retreat to preserve this. On the other hand, if the armed man is guarding a repository of potentially important Knowledge, then the Magos is likely to be confrontational. If, The Quest for Knowledge to understand the mind of a Techpriest, one must understand the purpose of his being. This is encapsulated within the tenets of the Cult Mechanicus, which dictate the goals and behavior of every Techpriest. In essence, the Sixteen Universal Laws that rule the thinking of a Techpriest help him understand the nature of life and its relevance to the Machine God, and the ways that a mere mortal can come to comprehend the Machine God. To fully understand the Machine God is the ultimate goal of the Cult Mechanicus, and Techpriests strive to achieve a When playing an Adeptus Mechanicus character in a scenario or campaign, it is important to understand that these tenets are not guidelines, or even rules. To a greater or lesser extent they are the foundations of the Techpriest’s thinking, the paradigm that provides him with a framework to deal with the outside world. Pro-xenos and Anti-xenos Individuals may on occasion break one of the Sixteen Universal Laws, through quirk of personality or personal interpretation, active sabotage of their psyche or incorrect instruction into the Cult Mechanicus. Often this will cause great angst within the individual at a later date, suffering the biological equivalent of a repeated error message in his mind. This can be cured with re-programming (or Bio-error Purgation as it is commonly referred to by the Techpriests), but if it is not treated can lead to all manner of psychological problems, leading to greater and greater heresies. This is no more evident than in the conflict between the pro-xenos and anti-xenos factions within the Cult Mechanicus. In many ways this mirrors the Puritan and Radical divide that exists within the Inquisition, but originates not from a philosophical view point, but rather on interpretation ofthe Sixteen Universal Laws. As such, in some areas this isan open, theological debate, while on some forge worlds such discussion may itself be deemed worthy of castigation.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 26, 2005 10:39:39 GMT -5
What Does It All Mean?
Of course the above is probably not indicative of every Techno Magos. I see the potential for those among the Adeptus Mechanicus that are pure scientists…not delving in the catacombs of Mars or other worlds to find some lost piece of technology, but actively working to create something new or recreate a lost technology as the case may be. Such individuals might flourish under an indulgent Fabricator General or Arch Magos of a Forge World. They are just as likely to be persecuted or charged with heresy by a more fanatical Arch Magos or Fabricator General.
The Adeptus Mechanicus is a dangerous combination of two very insular and hide bound groups, the clergy and the scientific community. One need only think of Galileo’s trial for heresy (because he dared to say that the sun and not the earth was at the center of the solar system) to visualize how “new” ideas may be viewed by the more fanatical members of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The scientific community itself is little better. Many scientists work their entire lives to have their particular theory accepted by their peers. This makes them more than a little resistant to another scientist whose work seems to contradict or invalidate their own. The Adeptus Mechanicus seems to merge these two organizations and take the worst aspects of both.
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 26, 2005 10:56:30 GMT -5
Don't like all of those. They're good as principles but not as the rock-solid tenets of the mechanicum faith. There are plenty who don't believe that alien technology is corrupt, for example.
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Post by Tynesh on Feb 26, 2005 11:53:31 GMT -5
Don't forget that the AdMech (despite their name) are more than just mechanics. I think it is important to view them as Scientists and Engineers. I am thinking of the Biologis, Genetors and other groupings. What does everyone else think. Perhaps the greatest thing IMO about the AM is their utter contempt for the organic and what it stands for. As a genetics student I can tell you that it is so utterly amazing to understand how life has evolved to the stage it has without an overiding control (atheist speaking here;)) something that the AdMech and concept of the Machine God and his Ommissiah. Strange how they abhor something so much more complex and ingenious than the mechanic and technical is.
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Post by Sojourner on Feb 27, 2005 10:54:04 GMT -5
Right, here's a little snippet. More to come.
+++Diplomatic communique+++ +++Author: Por'El Ma'kan'cyr+++ +++Destination: T'au Central Intelligence+++ +++Authorised for: Aun'El Tria'sta'no; specific security clearance only+++ +++Subject: Scientific/Technical organisations of the Gue'la+++
Honoured master,
As requested I have filed the following report regarding the nature of Gue'la attitudes and approaches to the advancement of science and technology. Information is gathered and corroborated from both Gue'la and other soruces, in and outside official bodies. The principal vector of technological practice in the so-called Imperium of Man is the organisation to which the Gue'la refer to as the 'Adeptus Mechanicus'. This pan-galactic body is tasked primarily with regulating and disseminating technological research, and with constructing and maintaining the vast majority of Imperial military hardware, most notably the vessels of the 'Imperial Fleet' and the vehicles and weapons of the Gue'la standing army, the 'Imperial Guard'. This organisation is highly centralised (being based on the planet Mars in the Gue'la home system, Sol) and highly authoritarian, under the overall control of an individual known as the 'Fabricator-General' who holds the position of head of state for the quasi-independent governmental body, the 'Symposium Mechanicum'. Note that unlike the other Imperial official bodies with which the Tau Empire have dealings whose ranks and divisions are named almost entirely in the 'High Gothic' dialect, the Adeptus Mechanicus utilises elements from both Low and High Gothic as well as their own technical vocabulary, the 'Lingua Technis'. The most intriguing aspect of the practices of this vast organisation is their philosophy toward their profession. Unlike our own noble Earth caste whose outlook is entirely practical and grounded in logic, the Gue'la of the Adeptus Mechanicus hold a highly mystical attitude toward the nature of science and technology. References are frequently made to a 'Machine God' and also to an 'Omnissiah', the latter term being rooted in an ancient Gue'la term for a heroic or prophetic individual. It is unclear whether these terms refer to the same entity or whether the Machine God and the Omnissiah are partially or entirely seperate concepts. Indeed it seems that there is some discord between schools of thought in this regard. Some sources closely associate the Omnissiah with the Gue'la Emperor, the semi-mythological ancient leader of the Gue'la whose living reign predates the Tau Empire itself. Details of the very ancient history of the Adeptus Mechanicus are difficult to corroborate, but there is some evidence that at some time in the distant past the Adeptus Mechanicus and the greater body of Gue'la civilisation were isolated from one another and reunited during the time of the Emperor, who was at least partially accepted as being the Omnissiah himself. However, those media which refer to such an event are often greatly contradictory and suspect in their authenticity. As such, no solid conclusions can be drawn. With regard to the Machine God himself (the personification of such is typically assumed to be at least conceptually male) the Gue'la display the typical approach to truly superstitious and irrational belief systems, frequently contradicting themselves and one another in their explanations of the true nature of the philosophy. For some time, occupying a significant proportion of the organisation's lifespan, the prevailing philosophy is that the Machine God and/or the Omnissiah are the personification of sapient knowledge and understanding of said knowledge (which is explicitly stated in, among others, the Fourth, Sixth, Seventh and Eighth 'Universal Laws'). Practically this philosophy popularly extends to an extreme reverence toward made technology, supposedly being a real maniestation of 'holy' knowledge, whereas the living form is maligned as being construction in the absence of understanding; the product of disordered and random processes rather than the sacred act of conscious creation. As such, practically all members of the Adeptus Mechanicus willingly and overtly practice extreme bodily modification using noticeable technological enhancements in an effort to make their own form more closely adhere to the holy art of construction. In the past, this philosophy has been taken to greater or lesser extremes, reaching a zenith some time in the Gue'la thirty-fourth millennium, during which time many prominent individuals openly proclaimed their distaste for living beings and their assured knowledge of the supremacy of technology. A few even went so far as to suggest that all life, even the Gue'la themselves, were ultimately worthy of no less than total extermination, leaving the universe free for the propogation of 'perfect' technology, or as it was referred to, the 'Great Artifice'. The philosophy of the Great Artifice dictates that eventually all natural life, being as it is a product of disordered, ignorant processes, will be swept away and its place will be taken by constructed, self-replicating machinery, all bound to the same purpose in a physical embodiment of the Machine God's all-encompassing knowledge. This philosophy was largely wiped out during the time which Gue'la historians refer to as the 'Age of Apostasy', during which a movement headed by the populist religious movement of the Imperium assumed control. This movement, in total contrast to the Adeptus Mechanicus, held the philosophy that mankind in its natural form was strong, righteous, and destined to sole rulership by right. Needless to say, the two cultures clashed and it was the Adeptus Mechanicus who became downtrodden and adjusted to better suit the aims of the Apostates.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 28, 2005 16:14:48 GMT -5
Good thing that we can create more of them. Universal Law IV - "Intellect is the Understanding of KnowledgeThis is merely the statement that to fully comphrehend the spirit of the Machine God, and to bring oneself closer, it is not merely a question of mechanisation or knowledge, but the intellect to understand that knowledge. Servitors, while being mechanised, have no intellect... The main problem comes in Machine Intelligence (MI) since that has both the intellect and the knowledge, even though the form is created. Probably something to do here with evolution of 'machine spirit'... Universal Law V - Sentience is the Basest Form of IntellectFair enough. Nothing too difficult here since it establishes the primacy of the adeptus mechanicus. Universal Law VI - Understanding is the True Path to ComprehensionUnderstanding, perhaps? The manifestation of the hierarchy of the adeptus mechanicus advocated by myself? Universal Law VII - Comprehension is the Key to all Things A restatement or rather extension of UL VI, so nothing surprising there. Universal Law VIII The Omnissiah Knows All, Comprehends All This glares with the original 'fluff' and is an example, once again, of canonising the mistakes and misinterpretations of the 'fluff'. The Emperor was 'mistaken', or at least heralded, as the Omnissiah but now because of that tenuous claim all logic must exist because the claim existed? Of course, it could just be some horrendous use of trinatarianism in the 40k context. Universal Law VIII - The Alien Mechanism is a Perversion of the True Path Note: Repeated law number. This also doesn't take into account the fact that xenos technology is studied by the adeptus mechanicus in the canonical 'fluff' (i.e. the production and use of shuriken catapults back-engineered from eldar models but utilising human technology, hence the lack of efficiency). Oh, but you get to that... there's the other philosophy! It is, however, interesting to note that an organisation that espouses knowledge is so often closed to it... Ah the joys of CELS' paradigm. Fabricator General of a forgeworld? Universal Law XV – Flesh is Fallible, but Ritual Honors the Machine Spirit Nice to see something which allows for robots and integrates the concept of organic into the modes of ascension to the Machine God. Universal Law XVI - To Break with Ritual is to Break with Faith This seems to be another hierarchal point of view once again since it conflicts with UL VI, VII and VIII. I would still have that dependent on hierarchy, in the long term since that allows for more flexibility, but you're essentially saying that unlike people throughout history these people actually read the instruction manual before using something. Iron Hands seems to monkey around with this approach, but there's no surprise there. Yet the seem to be represented as doing otherwise! Which is a matter of philosophy! Or theology... Good-o, since that is what we've been working on for some time now! I think it's great. And, of course, they try to mimic the organic as well... Sojourner... I love it up to the "Great Artifice", at which points the concepts do interfere. Seems a restatement of the ordo hydra in mechanical form, though one must question whether the adeptus mechanics would extend it unilaterally to other beings. Kage
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