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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 8, 2005 17:10:47 GMT -5
Well, then go with it! I like it as well... If you want a double, or even triple, name why not latin-ify something and tag it on the end. Symposium Technis, for a bad example. Yes, yes and yes. Pirates are ultimately going to reflect those eldar that walk the Path of the Outcast. I concentrate on the craftworld eldar because, as I mentioned previously, they've got some reasonably solid concepts behind them. Knowing where they get their, erm, 'inspiration' from is a different thing altogether. Generally this only gets brought out when people begin to harp on about how 'original' the 40k universe is. Changing things for the sake of changing them without an attempt at an explanation... that's a different matter. You can insist away, people - and I include myself there - only ask that you make even a half-hearted attempt at explaining the reasons why and, perhaps, approach it as a matter of history. Rather than dropping a bombshell, explain the shape of the bomb... The major problem with the 'fluff' on the Inquisition wasn't the dropping of the ordo malleus as the 'secret Inquisition' but, like the C'tan, it was thrown into the past and explained as always being like that you just didn't know about! Unless this is absolutely necessary it should be done: it is horrible authorship. What I would suggest here is that a historical event or process be created to explain the replacement of robots (which existed historically in the hobby) and the current emphasis on servitors. It should not be simplistic along the lines of "The Iron Men did it!" (etc.) nor as was 'attempted' elsewhere, revise the concepts behind something (i.e. the Machine Spirit) to make it consistent with 'biological servitors' just... because, well, that's what we want to do. For example, perhaps because of some form of catalyst even the Symposium met and discussed the fate of 'robots'. Given the previous descriptions, it was decided that they were too close to the Iron Men and, as a result, research was halted and models destroyed. Perhaps it was even thought, strangely, that a machine intelligence could not be motivated by the spirit of the Machine God... There is a wide degree of potential here that only takes a bit of time to unlock. Rather than merely closing the door, perhaps you could put a window in it, as it were. Just in case I've waxed a bit too lyrical, I'm saying that I have no objection for the legio cybernetica disappearing. I just think that it behoves us as 'authors' to come up with an explanation that exceeds the expectations of the GW audience (some might say that this is not hard, but still... ). Amazing how much it is forgotten about! Having a superscience solution given the timescales involved would, for me, be a horrendous mistake. Perhaps I should be stubborn about this! Perpetuating bad conceptualisation is not the way forwards, at least in my mind. We understand from the "add on" Iron Man information that technology is meant to be held in a most dubious regard. So why not 'borrow' from another universe, say Traveller. With that universe a 'virus' impacted upon technology, essentially throwing many back into a level of technology associated with the medieval period while still keeping high-tech artefacts around for narrative purposes. (Sound familiar?) Anyway, perhaps a version of the Iron Men that was a 'virus' was let lose on Mars? This actually has some remarkable advantages although explaining the 'terraforming' nightmare remains problematic... In that regard, I think utilising 'radiation shields' is going to be more trouble than its worth, despite the 'fluff'. Even 'solar mirrors' is going to be problematic given the general theories on terraforming of Mars. This is Revisionism that, while it is appropriate for the rules, is not necessarily appropriate for the 'fluff' for a number of reasons. E.g. the 'fluff' is scattered throughout editions, all 'fluff' interpretation is highly variable at the best of times, and the disparate sources and obvious publishing goals of given material. Seems to have happened in the last two World Wars as well!
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 8, 2005 17:12:42 GMT -5
If it was outside of their experience base, yes. Indeed, surely the pure spirit of the Machine God that motivates any given machine is going to be able to resist any mere daemon! And surely the organic mind is more fragile and open to th wiles of Chaos? Wiping it might work, but can you bet on it? I shall go and check it out forthwith to see if it all makes sense. No arguments from me since this is, in esence, how I view things (see the previous mention of the eldar 'fluff' on this matter). And repeatedly knocking on the head of the ordo malleus, thereby furthering strain between the adeptus mechanicus and the Imperium. I personally use MtA for quite a lot of things, not only after-the-fact inspiration for the warp (I created my interpretation and then subsequently read MtA), as well as explaining the 'powers' of the C'tan, the Old Ones and some exceptionally powerful psykers... One problem that you've got here is that many people view all members of Imperial organisations deriving from the schola progenium. I don't beleive it, but I've seen this argument used a number o times. ... And knowledge comes with increasing ones position in the hierarchy, if they are deemed approriate. (This is where "apprenticeship" or, rather patronage, comes to the fore: the exception rather than the rule.) Indeed, I'm going to skip comment on the majority of information that follows since I've posted it in a similar form on Portent and, indeed, elsewhere. Suffice to say that, for the most part, we seem to agree. Don't forget those solar mirrors! The main problem here seems to be the 'radiation shields' given that a thickened atmosphere solves all those problems... So perhaps a mechanic by which the atmosphere thickening goes awry? The only problem is that an atmosphere sufficient to support a biosphere isn't likely to fail for over technological reasons. Hmmn, perhaps not that much of a problem but still a problem. The problem here is the 'fluff' itself, which this is basically a rewriting of: it assumes in many ways that there is no technological knowledge, or at least no 'scientists', in the first place. Depends on what you refer to as a 'meet'! Yes... and I already knew what it was! The cyberskulls are illustrative in the long term, although it still doesn't do that much to explain the situation. And biochemistry only goes so far in explaining servitors... It does get problematic. All those vast computers replaced with row up row of servitor 'brains', etc.
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Post by CELS on Feb 9, 2005 12:41:04 GMT -5
I'm not saying that there aren't computers in 40k. They're just called cogitators instead. The difference between a robot and a computer, of course, is that a robot (by definition) is a machine which operates automatically. Of course, you could get a computer/cogitator to operate automatically, but this is not done in the Imperium. Well, it's not common, at least. It might be going on somewhere, but I've yet to see anything carried out automatically by a machine.
Even in the vast archives of the Inquisition, I believe servitors are used to locate and retrieve information, manually. Or was that the archives of the Officio Assassinorum... well, the point remains.
The point is, nothing is done automatically. If you want a humanoid machine to walk and shoot a gun, it must be done under the manual controls of a human or at least a servitor, for example.
Since this is well within the reach of the Imperial technology, it seems obvious that robots are not used (if one should agree that robots are not used) because the Imperium fears them.
The Virus A pretty good idea, Kage. It seems to work out quite fine. Mars was damaged by a virus in the Age of Strife. I don't know what you mean by Iron Men virus though. As in quasi-intelligent virus (how Matrixy) or as a physical nano-robot virus?
Assuming that you mean a 'software' virus, this makes a lot of sense. If I'm not mistaken, hackers have been able to gain access to power plants in real life, so one can imagine how dangerous this can be. If some crazy scientist created a supervirus on Mars in the Age of Strife, that could easily bring the world back to the stone-age in certain regards, and maybe even cause great disasters, such as power plant meltdowns, flooding, farming sabotage, etc.
Not only does this explain the fall of Mars, but it also explains to some degree the fear of advanced computers in the Imperium. Instead of having a thousand servitors walking around in a factory with cranes for arms, you could have a single computer operating multiple cranes. Or even, an entire city on a forgeworld that is run by a mega-computer. But then, because of the fear of viruses, this is not done.
It can even be used to explain the fear of robots, to some degree. If robots are able to communicate digitally over distance, then they are vulnerable to virus attacks. You could just hack into their communication grid (or whatever you call it) and mess with their commands.
And then, even if robots are programmed manually and physically, and even if they are not able to communicate, they are still dangerous. Is that very fact, combined with the likely religious belief that computers capable of automatic, independent operation are treacherous and unholy, enough to explain the fear of robots? Maybe not, but I think we're getting closer.
Another important question is; Are machines more resistant to chaos than the human mind? I'm not so sure. If one could argue that a computer is actually less resistant to chaos, then the robot-dilemma would be solved. It would be a perfect explanation. Of course, I can't really back this up by fluff, because the outdated fluff says that machines are immune to chaos (obviously wrong, as seen with possessed vehicles, possessed power armour, corrupted chaos ships, etc), whilst the new fluff has no trace of robots at all. The only exception is the Iron Men in the Gaunt's Ghost novels. Those are robots corrupted by chaos. The problem is that we have no idea of saying if they were easily corrupted or not.
Thoughts? I could always just make some assumptions without the support of fluff, since the fluff is so lacking anyway.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 9, 2005 18:26:31 GMT -5
I'm not saying that there aren't computers in 40k. They're just called cogitators instead. Perhaps getting caught up in the use of a word when we're engaging in generic discussion might be a bit... pedantic? I can see it when there is a need to distinguish things, but perhaps just leaving it at the acknowledge that by 'computer' we also mean 'cogitator'. Of course, you could get a computer/cogitator to operate automatically, but this is not done in the Imperium. Are you talking autonomy or programmed responses? In the latter case computers in the 40k universe do have programmed responses and, in a sense, operate automatically. They don't get up and walk, trundle/whatever around but they do have automatic processes. I believe they are called 'programs'! Even in the vast archives of the Inquisition, I believe servitors are used to locate and retrieve information, manually. Servitors are, of course, just robots with biological components. You're still going to have to program them with something... unless there is some idea that they are just 'lobotomised' or something equally tedious. The point is that there is still programming going on that is something considerably more than just Pavlovian response... ("It rubs the lotion onto it's skin..." etc.) Since this is well within the reach of the Imperial technology, it seems obvious that robots are not used (if one should agree that robots are not used) because the Imperium fears them. Again, we're going on reverse logic here. Historically in the game they were used. Rather than some rather ad hoc reasoning and the replacement of inorganic robots with what is, in essence, more complex biological robots ab initio then perhaps, again, something can be created to explain the transition. Something as simple as the legio cybernetica was an experiment gone horrendously wrong, ending when the adeptus mechanicus were chastised by the Inquisition and the senatorum imperialis. As such the Symposium publically denounced the use of 'robots' as "technoheresy" and then just repackages them in biological form. It reduces the efficiency somewhat, which peeves the adeptus mechanicus whose more radical factions continue with their experimentation... Similarly the adeptus mechanicus has a good 'ole laugh at the stupid and uninitiated when they don't realise that 'cogitators' are just 'robots' in a different form depending upon the level of programming utilised. And, of course, that servitors are just the same but having something with soft squidgey bits and cybernetics is somehow more palatable. This, of course, reinforces that 'fluff' on servitors be looked at. The 'fluff' seems relatively clear that they are a combination of both bioroid ("vat grown") and transformed ("criminals", etc.), but the nature of the organic-machine interface, programming of servitors, etc., is up in the air. All fairly easy to explain, since it's just going to act like a robot (! ) but couching it in the appropriate terms is more of a challenge unless you go with the standard "colour text" approach. The amusing thing is that 40k servitors come off as a rather silly rendition of the 'bio-machines' from the film Virus. ;D
A pretty good idea, Kage. It seems to work out quite fine. It just means that technology can 'fail' rather than people going on rather silly pogroms against 'machines', even though that might also have been a part. You know, the whole motivation kind of thing. And it's, erm, only "researched" from tacky films like Virus and from RPG products such as Traveller: The New Era. As in quasi-intelligent virus (how Matrixy) or as a physical nano-robot virus? I'd personally advise the first since it is 'low-tech' enough for the rather simple Iron Man concept, which in many ways is more Dune than Matrix. (Well, actually, it's quite a blurred line! ) This way the Iron Man would only have to get to Mars and 'plug in', and this just so that the Martians would have a lovely 'shell' to kill and destroy. This also assumes that what makes the Iron Men, erm, whatever they were meant to be is software and not hardware (so no positronic brain imagery). If some crazy scientist created a supervirus on Mars... This is not required, as above. If anything the scientists would be the ones fighting against the 'virus' and would allow for the whole "fighting fire with fire" scenario as they destroy databanks in the hope of ridding themselves of the virus. Of course, you're going to have to keep the descriptions of the original 'fluff' in there somehow, but that only takes a minor stretch of the imagination. in the Age of Strife, that could easily bring the world back to the stone-age in certain regards... It would do a better job than technology 'randomly' failing, that is true. It still doesn't remove scientists from the picture, but again the chances are that it was these individuals that were at the heart (and remain at the heart) of the formation of the adeptus mechanicus. If you're going to have Mars falling back into a pre-terraformed state then you're not going to really have trouble with 'flooding'. Even farming would be a huge no-no unless they returned to the original 'protected' farming system. Or even, an entire city on a forgeworld that is run by a mega-computer. But then, because of the fear of viruses, this is not done. It's just compartmentalisation. The large 'computers' still exist, such as the cogitators aboard a starship (which are going to have to be damned complex), etc. Again, attributing fear of mehanisation to the adeptus mechanicus is problematic. Attributing a long-standing fear of it in the Imperium for []15,000 years (!)[/i] is also a problem... Of course, you've got the denouncing of robotic technologies and the potential swing away (too far) as a result but... Well, again, the Imperium tends to work only because GW says it does and people are, for some reason, willing to swallow some of the assumptions. If robots are able to communicate digitally over distance, then they are vulnerable to virus attacks. It's a packing thing more than anything else. Servitors, on the other hand, are not only vulnerable to 'distance' attack in terms of electromagnetic transmissions, but also psychic manipulation. Is that very fact, combined with the likely religious belief that computers capable of automatic, independent operation are treacherous and unholy, enough to explain the fear of robots? Maybe not, but I think we're getting closer. I think this is one of the points where "religion" is being used on behalf of the adeptus mechanicus as a catch all term to cover a great many glitches. Remember that there religion involves knowledge and understanding... One interesting reason for compartmentalisation is simple: Not past fear but present fear. What if the 'virus' never went away? What if they believe another is 'returning'? Certain beats the whole "religion" argument. Are machines more resistant to chaos than the human mind? I'm not so sure. If one could argue that a computer is actually less resistant to chaos, then the robot-dilemma would be solved. I'm going to say a big 'no' to this as it is far too circular. Humans can be affected by chaos and so can machines (cf. Gaunt's Ghost, Iron Hands). But which one - humans or machine - has a handy connection to the source of daemonic energies? The only exception is the Iron Men in the Gaunt's Ghost novels. Those are robots corrupted by chaos. The problem is that we have no idea of saying if they were easily corrupted or not. Ah you were familiar with them. In all cases of 'machine' possession the implication has always seemed - to me - that it was either deliberate (i.e. "enchantment") or that it occurs over a loooonggg time (cf. Iron Hands).
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Post by Destecado on Feb 10, 2005 13:30:09 GMT -5
The following information is a compilation of fluff from the RT Era, Inquitor Game and Newest Edition of 40k. I thought that it might help in our discussion of the Adeptus Mechanicus’ origins and of the change from robots to servitors. MARS - Pg 42 Codex Imperialis...Copyright 1993
The planet Mars has changed enormously since man first set foot upon its barren and arid surface. In the early 22nd century it became the first planet to be terraformed. It was given an atmosphere and its deserts were turned to fertile soil. However agriculture was never very important to Mars - its main source of wealth lay below its surface in the form of gems minerals and metal ores.
Once terraformed, mars was settled by industrial cartels and their workforces, and soon became the first hive world. Mars became a centre for industrial production and research, and its very name became synonymous with technical expertise and scientific advancement. Mars became the hub for further space exploration throughout the solar system.I proposed a similar possibility in our discussion of the Dark Age of Technology My concept had been of a conglomerate or group of companies terraforming and then colonizing Mars. Thinking of the structure of a company and of corporate culture, it is possible to see some parallels with the way the Adeptus Mechanicus operates…(Example: Their secretive nature is much the same as a company attempting to maintain security over patents or proprietary information in an attempt to keep competitors out of their market). Having a single governing body running all of Mars also makes the concept of a virus that crashes the systems more plausible. If Mars was Balkanized or had competing interests, their systems would probably be less integrated allowing the spread of the virus to be curtailed. ORGANIZATION - Pg 41 Codex Imperialis...Copyright 1993Fabricator General
The Leader of the Adeptus Mechanicus is the Fabricator General of Mars. He is a High Lord of Terra and also the head of the Cult mechanicus in his capacity as the magos mechanicus.
Magos
The Magos is the master of technological achievement. There are many divisions such as Magos Technicus, Magos Metallugicus, Magos Alchemys, Magos Physic, Magos Biologis, etc...
Logis
The Logis is the logistician, an analist and a statistician. His purpose is to predict future trends and make forecasts about expediture and needs. They are regarded as prophetic figures.
Genetor
Genetors are Genetic Scientists. They are very common amongst the Adeptus Mechanicus and often accompany Imperial Forces involved in the Exploration of new worlds.
Artisan
Artisans or Constructors , design machines, buildings, space craft, weapons and military hardware. They controll the vast labour force of the servitors.
Electro Priest
The Electro Priests are the fanatical cult warriors of the Adeptus Mechanicus. They travel on board spacecraft and support th tech priest warriors in battle. The Electro Priest turns himself into a crackling fount of electrical energy, destroying everything he touches before he collapses from the strain.
Engineers
Engineers are highly trained agents of the cult Mechanicus and they are often assigned to duties in the Imperial Guard or other parts of Adeptus Terra
Rune Priest
The Rune Priest scribes runes and chants liturgies over machines as part of the Cult ritual of initiation. He is trained in the arcane branches of scientific lore such as intuitive mechanics, speculation, , and improvisation. They are famous for their lateral thinking, which may be called upon when strict logic and standard procedures fail.
Transmechanic
These are Technicians or service engineers who specialise in communications tecnology. Like the engineers, they are often assigned duties in other Imperial Organisations.
Leximechanic
Their purpose is to compile and rationalise data so it can be entered into a central computer repository. They can work with computer speed and accuracy, assembling battlefield reports, economic statistics , planetary reports, and so forth, they may be assigned duties throughout the Adeptus Terra.
Servitors
Servitors are mindless slave machines of living flesh and metal creatures with no individual mind who obey their programming without question. Servitors make up a huge bulk of the Martian population, there are many kinds from heavy mini cyborgs to holomats (holographic recorders). The most severe punishment for a criminal is to be turned into a servitor: mind wiped and reprogrammed to perform some rudimetary function. Ex wrongdoers wear a brass plaque round their necks proclaiming their crime as a warning to all who would cross the tech priests of mars.HIGHERARCHY Inquisitor WebsiteThe lowest ranks of Techpriest have mainly maintenance and construction duties, but as a Tech-adept progresses and acquires greater knowledge, he is relieved from day to day tasks to study ancient texts and learn the greatest mysteries and techniques. Thus, the Adeptus Mechanicus endeavors to maintain this position of absolute knowledge and authority, and a Techpriest who feels that this is threatened will go to any lengths to protect his power, including murder, extortion, kidnapping, sabotage and terrorism.
To the Techpriests, flesh is merely an inconvenience; weak and frail in comparison to the mighty pistons, gears and chains of machinery. It must be sustained artificially beyond a certain point and, if one is to make most use of it, much of it needs replacing by newly grown parts or, more preferably, manufactured limbs, organs and systems. Their brains incorporate devices known as memo chips, engrams or electrografts, which allow their memories to store an incredible amount of information and access it quickly. They are often fitted with a variety of neural plugs which allow them to 'jack in' to the network of a terminal or machine, becoming part of its operating or control system. It is not uncommon for the most senior Techpriests to have entire limbs replaced with more functional devices, such as lifting arms, augur arrays and weapons. The most aged of the Adeptus Mechanicus are many, many centuries old, kept alive by horrifically produced anti-agapic elixirs which nourish the few parts of mortal flesh left on their bodies, although the wealth of knowledge and experience crammed into their brains has entirely divorced them from reality and driven them mad.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 10, 2005 14:09:29 GMT -5
Some Further Information… Inquisitor Website, This information may also be found on Pg 33 of the new Space Marine Codex in the details of the Techmarine
Servitors are altered humanoids that have had limbs and other body parts replaced with cybernetics and machinery. They are mind wiped and mentally reprogrammed to be able to perform simple tasks and obey specific instructions. Often a criminal, and particularly those who have offended the Cult Mechanicus, will be sentenced to Servitude Imperpituis and will be handed over to the Techpriests for modification. There are many different types of Servitors, but a few are detailed below.
Commanding Servotiors
All Servitors use the basic profile given below, modified by type as noted later. A Servitor must be given commands otherwise it will default to its programmed behavior. Commands must usually come from a single authorized individual (the Inquisitor or Techpriest in charge) but in some circumstances secondary authority may be given to other members of the warrior band. These commands must usually be given verbally, but some Techpriests may have MIUs (Mind Impulse Units) installed into a Servitor, or allow some other form of remote activation.
Equipment
Servitors are usually heavily modified with bionics, although these will almost always be crude or average in terms of their sophistication. If you wish to randomly generate a Servitor, then D6+1 body locations will be bionic. For each location, roll a D6, on a 1-3 the part is crude, on a 4-6 it is average. If the chest is bionic the character will have bionic lungs and heart. If the head is generated, the character will have bionics for all senses. Special Abilities: Force of Will (or No Will would be more appropriate); Nerves of Steel; True Grit. A Servitor may have remote MIU implanted in which case it will count as a Familiar. Types
Technical Servitors are a common sight in the Imperium; they are not really intended for combat but are very useful in assisting battlefield operations. These are often referred to as mono-tasks, being physically changed and augmented to perform a specific function. Commonly they are used as load-lifters and cranes, but more exotic mono-tasks include the heavy weapon mount and the mobile weapons rack. These are the standard Servitors that accompany a Techpriest.
Combat Servitors are modified mono-task lifters intended to fight in close combat, they are normally equipped with the equivalent of a power fist and close combat weapon (claw, chain blade, saw, and breacher). This will is an Implant Weapon. Combat Servitors have +20 WS.
Gun Servitors are intended to provide fire support for the Techpriest while he works. Often they will have whole limbs replaced as an Implant Weapon. This can be any type of basic weapon. Gun Servitors have +20BS, and the Hipshootingability. They may also be fitted with ammunition hoppers to confer the quick load ability.
Inqusitor Website Only
Praetorian Servitors Praetorians are intended to provide complete protection for the Techpriest on the battlefield. They are elite cyborg warriors which bodyguard the Magos and protect temples, shrines and other facilities threatened with direct attack. Heavily armed and armored they typically mass over twice the bulk of a man or more, with tracks or jointed legs to carry their immense weight. Some Praetorians are created from vat-grown giants or mind-scrubbed Ogryns. All are designed to intimidate, and if necessary, obliterate. Praetorians may be either Combat or Gun Servitors as detailed above. In addition to the rules listed for these Servitor types, a gun Praetorian may mount a heavy weapon. Praetorians also gain the Deflect shot ability, although this is to represent their extremely armored nature rather than preternatural reflexes, and this may never be deflected back to the firer.
I was able to find references to the Mind Impulse Units in the older fluff (see below). Based on that fluff, it states that they are difficult to produce...I don’t know whether they have become more easy to produce based on the information from the Inquisitor game. It may be that the Adeptus Mechanicus instead likes to retain the use of such devices solely within their own ranks.
Mind Impulse Units
Mind Impulse dispenses with any sort of panel or control gear, allowing the user to control and monitor a system by thought alone. These system are technically complex and producing them is difficult. Consequently they are rare. Their most common application is in Dreadnought suits. Some spacecraft employ mind impulse links but this is not usual. Such devices require considerable training to use at all and a great deal of practice if they are to be used efficiently. The physical component is a head ring which picks up and amplifies the wearer's instructions. A cruder, but equally effective, version is the spinal tap. This is engineered into the wearer's spinal cortex and works in the same way as the head ring but is difficult to remove without causing physical or mental damage.
The MIUs still don’t fully explain how humans are modified into servitors and controlled. I was at a quandary until I came upon the following information.
Electrografts
Electrografts are a special form of electoo engineered directly onto the recipient's cerebellum. This involves cutting away a portion of skull and creating the electoo directly on the brain tissue before (usually) replacing the section of cranium or covering with synthetic material. An electrograft reacts with the brain to alter a creature's memory, personality and knowledge. Many of the Imperium's technollogical secrets are passed on by this means, and it is certainly a quick and easy way to learn how to speak new languages, operate machinery, etc. On the other hand, interference with the mind tends to cause personality disorders, problems with memory recall and occasionally total mental breakdown. Once inserted an electrograft can be reprogrammed almost indefinitely, although repeated re-use accelerates the degenerative process.
It could be that the Adeptus Mechanicus either mind wipes or lobotomizes the individuals that are being made into servitors and then uses this technology to “program” them for the tasks required of them. Being that the servitor is mind wiped / lobotomized, they will not really suffer the personality disorders of someone with a fully functioning mind.
The elctrografts seem like a much less complex and expensive process to that of creating a cortex for a robot. This might explain why they eventually phased out the robots. Another possibility is that a radical faction within the Legio Cybernetica was using robot bodies to extend their own lives. Based on the fluff I posted in my previous post, many Magos are almost fully machine, with only a small fraction of their original biological form left. Perhaps the Magos of the Legio cybernetica were attempting to do away with their biologic forms all together.
They could have been experimenting with creating an artificial brain (consisting of electrografts and memory engrams) in an effort to transcend their biological form and become closer to the machine god. Such an individual would walk a fine line between “human” and machine intelligence. Could such a heresy cause the Adeptus Mechanicus to curtail or even disband the Legio Cybernetica?
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Post by CELS on Feb 10, 2005 15:28:15 GMT -5
That was very helpful indeed, Destecado! The last post is from Inquisitor, I guess? I don't recognise it from the rulebook.Who wrote it, by the way? I tend to take the articles by Jervis and Gav a bit more seriously than the rest.
And I suppose you'll be posting the 40k fluff when you have time...
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Post by Destecado on Feb 10, 2005 15:33:48 GMT -5
Actually, the infromation on Electrografts and MIUs dates back to the Rogue Trader Era. I have some very old books...but the information is also available online here, as well as on several other sites. The site provides other useful information onpower generation and advances in "circuitry"...all of which might prove important to a discussion of the Adeptus Mechanicus. I only posted the fluff that was most pertinent to the discussion at hand. The information that I was going to post from the latest edition dealt mostly with familiars and the servitors used by the inquisitors...it was info from the Witchhunters and Daemonhunters Codices...unfortunately I forgot to bring them with me to work. i'll post the information tomorrow.
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Post by CELS on Feb 10, 2005 16:03:10 GMT -5
First of all, Kage, I wasn't trying to be pedantic. It just helps to use the terms from fluff when discussing the fluff. I.e. not call a servitor a cyborg, etc. There's also the chance that some people don't agree that cogitators are computers. In other words, I was actually trying to be helpful But hey, as long as we all agree that cogitators=computers... Now, I haven't heard of computers in 40k that operate automatically. Indeed, the only piece of fiction that involves use of a computer, according to my memory, is First & Only, when they gain access to a computer onboard an Imperial starship. I don't recall reading anything in the fluff where machines actually do anything, like certain tasks on a ship, etc. Servitors and humans tend to handle that. This is probably one of the reasons Imperial ships are so big. Of course, I'm well aware that computers must be used in gigantic warp-capable starships, but I don't think you'd have computers that automatically regulate temperature, engine fuel mixture or whatever. Then there's the question of why the Imperium uses servitors instead of robots and computers. In my opinion, it's pretty obvious that robots and computers would be cheaper and more effective. The virus idea seems the best suggestion at the moment. And I'm not suggesting that robots were never used, Kage, merely that they are not widely used in the Imperium of M41. As for what servitors really are, I don't think there's that much to be discussed. As you say, they are effectively robots. Or at least, they can be. There are different types of servitors, of course. And yes, they are programmed. If someone wants to 'couch this in appropriate terms', feel free, but I can't possibly understand how it will change anything. What makes the Iron Men is software, not hardware. This I don't quite understand. The Iron Men machines must be extremely advanced in the first place, to allow a quasi-intelligent virus, right? I mean, it's not like you could infect a normal computer with this virus, and it would be intelligent. Perhaps you could explain your idea in more detail, Kage? If you remove the fear of mechanisation and robots, then how do you explain the fear of 'soulless machines'? Artificial intelligence without spirit. The idea with the Adeptus Mechanicus, of course, is the unity between humans and machines. There's an old 40k quote from 2nd Edition about Dreadnoughts that actually says this directly. Something about the invincibility of man and machine. Without machines, men are nothing. Without men, machines are nothing. That is the Adeptus Mechanicus philosophy as I see it. The flesh is weak (though the Biologis might disagree), but the human mind is the key to the universe. Actually, the infromation on Electrografts and MIUs dates back to the Rogue Trader Era. Ah. I just saw the Inquisitor rules, and figured the rest was from the same source. In the future, it would be extremely helpful if people clearly indicated their source to every bit of official fluff posted
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 11, 2005 0:41:33 GMT -5
A long set of posts to reply to. My apologies if I miss something out, repeat myself or seemingly (or definitely) contradict myself. As I have pointed out numerous times before I tend to reply to these things sequently and represent the thoughts that the section of a post engenders in me at the tme and, of course, in terms of my overall approach. Probably the ultimate source of the whole 'jungle' thing, though not specifically the same. [qupte] Originally posted by Destecado: Once terraformed, mars was settled by industrial cartels and their workforces, and soon became the first hive world. [/quote] Despite the ludicrous nature of the 'hiveworld' in general? I prefer governments followed up by reality... I disagree most strongly. The FG is a figurehead, though that doesn't mean that he doesn't get his own type of 'power'... The description misses out on the later shades in terms of 'rank'... You mean grad-school student? Now subsumed under the generic term of 'magos' with a specific disciplinary focus... Given the 'twitches' in the 'fluff' with regards to the construction of certain technologies these are definitely necessary. Wonder if GW had just watched Big Trouble in Little China... Problematic in general. Manifestion of technological diffusion control mechanisms...? Otherwise the rest is all fairly standard... Well, all I mean is that the given certain set situations they may operate in a give manner if 'commanded' to do that. While the command might be non-automatic, the respose is programmed. Actually, it's probably more to do with the Image. Check out the JET and the reason for the computer systems that they want for that... Then on that we agree. Then it needs to be mentioned. It is another 'glitch' in the 'fluff' that can be addressed here... It tends to 'explain' all the hand-waving. "We don't have robots, but we have robots that are made out of humans". That way leads to the idea that only humans can have 'machine spirit' and to say that that is lame is, well, an understatement. Merely that the 'hardware' is an extension of the function and 'will' of the 'software'. Or do people think that all the Iron Men were anthropomorphic? Hmmn... "intelligent virus". Anymore believable than "intelligent creature imprisoned from the stars"? With that as more of an aside, one need not have all the manifestations of a 'virus' to be intelligent to have the source of that 'virus' to be intelligent. As I said, the 'fluff' is broken and works only through circularity and the paramounce of transient imagery. The Iron Man 'situation' was introduced afterwards to explain this problem... shoe-horned in as normal. Even then they don't actually try and explain how it is perpetuated, etc. Ah this one again... Broadly I agree, but sometimes people can forget and don't have the resources to check. For example I have exactly ZERO 'fluff' books with me at the moment... Or at all, when it comes down to it; there are much better things to spend your money on in terms of weight limit. With that said, as a general premise then yes. Again, yes.
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Post by CELS on Feb 11, 2005 6:39:53 GMT -5
Despite the ludicrous nature of the 'hiveworld' in general? What's the point in bringing that up here? Was this intended as a joke? They might have stolen logis from Local Government Information Systems (LOGIS), though that term might be stolen from some latin term which is not in my dictionary. A reasonable comment. Erm... where? But do we have an explanation for it, or would we just be paraphrasing fluff in fancy terms? Probably. Now, I don't really recall the First & Only novel, but I think Gaunt recognised the Iron Men pretty quickly. If the Iron Men came in all forms, then it's unlikely that Gaunt would recognise one of the million forms of Iron Men. What do you mean? Yep. It was a recommendation, not a requirement. And for this discussion it would be extremely helpful to me! For example, I argue that the Legio Cybernetica is outdated fluff from RT days, and then someone says "remember, robots have been used by the Red Snake [or whatever] Space Marines, who used robots for probe attacks". Now, the validity of this counterargument depends entirely on its source. And to whom it may concern, it turns out the source was also from RT days.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 11, 2005 8:22:41 GMT -5
What's the point in bringing that up here? Because it is relevant to the origins of the adeptus mechanicus? You've got a failing ecosphere that is not given over to farming at the best of times, failing technological base and yet you manage to have populations in their billions? Of course, 'hiveworld' per se could just be a reference to population aggregation but given the circumstance one could readily imagine more... controls on population. All that I ever ask is that people consider all the 'fluff' and balance that against reality or, at least, the reality of the 40k universe inasmuch as that has any meaning. There are some concepts that, after this consideration, you find daft but are such an integral part of the 'fluff' that you must keep them... Hiveworlds are such as these. But when coupled with the seeming environment of Mars it tends to make less sense except as a means of population aggregation. Indeed, Phillip's point about 'recycling' in general must become even more relevant here (although not the complete image). Was this intended as a joke? For the most part. Wait until grad-school to find out! Well, other than the prophetic part... They might have stolen logis from Local Government Information Systems (LOGIS), though that term might be stolen from some latin term which is not in my dictionary. The original article that I saw was in the New Scientist a while back, but I'm sure that there is an online version if you Google it... But do we have an explanation for it, or would we just be paraphrasing fluff in fancy terms? Perhaps. It depends on how it was done. Merely accepting that the Imperium uses servitors out of some generic 'fear' of robots that, seemingly, extends back to early Age of Strife and perpetuates over fifteen millennia for... some reason. I merely submit that such a concept needs further analysis when it is fairly 'obvious' that the servitors are just robots in not just the shape of man, but the bodies of man. (Well, woman as well.) Are people so easy to hook-line-and-sink (ha! likely!)? Does 'fear' of servitors increase with mechanisation and, in such case, how does that translate to the adeptus mechanicus 'priests' in states of advanced mechanisation. There are, as always, parallel considerations. Probably. Now, I don't really recall the First & Only novel, but I think Gaunt recognised the Iron Men pretty quickly. If the Iron Men came in all forms, then it's unlikely that Gaunt would recognise one of the million forms of Iron Men. He's also an individual steeped in Imperial "mytho-history" (don't you just love tagging two words together! ) so it would not be unusual for him to make the association of "robots = Iron Men". Still, it doesn't explain the 'power' that the emotional response holds after such a long period and, indeed, a long period without reinforcement. (And in the context of the above premise, how much would he have known about any legio cybernetica?) Merely that while the 'parent' might be intelligent that is not to say that the 'children' will be (i.e. a sub-program is not necessarily as complex or have the 'power' of the parent program). Consider it in terms of daemons: a daemon that is fragmented off the power/will of a god might be formed of that 'power' and be aspected by it, but it is not the god. Yep. It was a recommendation, not a requirement. And for this discussion it would be extremely helpful to me! Ultimately it comes down to a question of whether you're trying to 'realistically' and 'consistently' represent the 'fluff' or whether you're trying to produce a generic article that has some use in the ASP but is broadly something that can be used elsewhere...? In many ways it's kind of like the "Eldar Sourcebook". I want to use it here but it's part of something wider than the ASP so, at times, other features can overshadow a points integration into the work itself whether that be an RPG consideration, conformance to Revisionism and 'fluff' for wider acceptance, etc. But it is very good to see that at least we're examining the wider perspectives and ideas rather than merely just saying, "Yep it says here that... whatever... and thus we must accept it."
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Post by Destecado on Feb 11, 2005 13:55:45 GMT -5
To properly annotate the sources from which I have derived the fluff in my previous posts, a have gone back and added page numbers as well as the source. Below is some additional information along with the sorce from which it is derived.
Armies of the Machine God – Pg 121 4th Edition Rule Book
Skitarii
The bulk of the Adeptus Mechanicus’ armed forces are forge guards known as Skitarii – human soldiers with basic bionic augmentations for communication, weapon links and sensory feeds. With the manufacturing power of the Adeptus Mechanicus behind them, the Skitarii are amongst the best equipped soldiers in the Imperium, rating alongside such forces as the Imperial Guard Storm Troopers and drop Legions. Although most forge worlds maintain whole regiments of Skitarii, their dominant role is to bolster the already considerable power of the gigantic war machines of the Titan Legions and crew the massive mobile support weapons of the Centurio Ordinatus.
MIUs
One of the most vital tasks of the Collegia is recruiting and training individuals of sufficient will to enter mind impulse links with the fierce and warlike machine spirit of a Titan. Only the strongest can survive such a link with their sanity intact, as they must be able to retain their sentience amidst the roaring indomitable spirit of destruction that dwells each of the admantium giants. Recruits are taken from wherever they can be found among the Cult Mechanicus or even beyond it, for it is a rare man that can ride to war in a Battle Titan.
Below is some additional information on robots. My previous posting of fluff related to robots (and by exstension the Legio Cybernetica) are derived from the same sources as the following fluff…Warhammer 40,000 Compendium…Copyright 1989. The fluff from the previous posts appeared on page 96-97.
Slave & Master Systems – Pg 106 Warhammer 40,000 Compendium…Copyright 1989
A robot need not have a cortex and a program to operate. It can act as the slave of a master Robot, receiving orders by communicator. Only the master robot is fitted with a cortex and program; the slaves are merely bodies fitted with standard communicators. Special damage results that would normally affect the cortex or program of a slave robot is re-rolled.
Each slave robot follows the instructions in the Master’s program in turn. Effectively each slave has its own program and cortex as the actions of one slave have no effect on any others. Both the master and slave robots must be on the table top within 48” of each other.
Each time a slave robot is activated during the Robot Phase roll a D6. On a result of 6 or more its communicator signals are jammed or ignored, and the slave robot cannot perform any actions. It is simply frozen in place. On any other resultthe robot follows the program held by its master in the usual fashion.
If the master robot’s program or cortex is damaged all its slaves are affected equally. Communicator damage to a slave robot means that it can no longer receive or transmit data. It immediately grinds to a halt. Damage to the master’s communicator brings all its slave robots to a halt. Damage to the master’s other systems has no effect on its slaves.
Any number of slaves can be controlled by a single master robot, although the usual ratio is one master to three slaves. When a larger ratio is used damage to a master’s program can halt too many robots in a single stroke.
The benefits of using master-slave systems can be great. The overall points value of four robots is reduced by the cost of three (identical) programs. The cost reduction must of course, be balanced against the risks of communications breakdown.
Reading the above gave me a couple of ideas. It may be that the Legio Cybernetica instituted the master-slave system because they were running short of cortices to fill the robots or maybe a cortex required high maintenance. This would allow them to pull a cortex for servicing while still fielding the unit in battle. Of course the use of such a system may have come back to haunt them when fighting an enemy such as the Mezzan.
If the Mezzan were able to penetrate their communications network, then they might be able to seize control of the slave units from master robot. It may be ne reason to explain why the Legio Cybernetica fell into disfavor and also how the Mezzan were able to take the fight to the Imperium. What are your thoughts?
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Post by Destecado on Feb 11, 2005 18:32:46 GMT -5
Another interesting find that might shed some light on the Adeptus Mechanicus...The follwoing text comes from the Appendix at the back of the 3rd edition rule book.
This being the Journal of Keeper Cripias Dated in the year of our Emperor 9931M41
For seventy long years I have laboured as Master Finnias laboured before me, and Master Shadiel before him. Through eight hundred and thirty six generations of Keepers of the Library Sanctus of Terra. It has been our endeavour, our lives-long aim, to compile a history of the majesty of the Human Race from the archives which are our worship. In his benevolent wisdom, the emperor has granted me the singular great honour and pleasure of completing this sacred task in my own lifespan.
Through copius notes and periods of cogitation I have pieced together the history and pre-history of Mankind into the greatest of antiquities of time. Here I have revealed my findings for the first time, for as in the time of the First Keeper, Solomon, our knowledge has passed by oratory andnot written word. However, in these changing times there are none worthy to succeed me now, and so it is fit and rightful that I, the Last Keeper, Cripias, records our great works to these pages for eternity.
And so it was, that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind, and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind. Yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow, to watch and to learn from Mankind. The Golden Race spreads across the face of the Old earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilization the anarchy of Nature.
In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen the Stone Men's power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperment and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifice and mechanisms.
In time, the golden Race looks to the stars to exand their dominion. the Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. Thus the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.
Our calculations from the most distant and archaic records, and through constellar comparison, have dated the end of the Golden Age at 20,000 years previous toour present time.
for the next 5000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined of Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail).
We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Stone create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thought.
However, Iron Men, as all creatures do, evelove and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other, they set about conquering the galaxy. The dark Age of technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavors. Many of the technical marvels that the Priesthood of Mars sustain can be traced to their origins in the Dark Age of Technology, and it is at the end of this period that the great organization known as the Adeptus Mechanicus was founded.
During the Dark Age of Technology, the austere ancestors of the Imperium's Navis Nobilite are born, and throught their unique prowess mankind forges through the stars. Weapons of great destruction cow the aggressions of alien enemies, pushing the frontiers of Mankind's domain. The end of the Dark Age of technology is the most obscure region in mankind's evolutionary tale. For whatever reasons and differences in ideology, the Stone Men and the Iron Men fall to warring with each other.
The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anthema to any true Man. The Stone Men, in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe. Even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties to their one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the emperor , in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path of Mankind's destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded.
the Age of Strife sees the collapse of the ancient Empire built by the Stone Men. Mankind is split asunder, there is no Race of Man, just warring factions contending with each other direst perils the galaxy could offer. Seeing humanity's weakness, alien dominance grows in power once again; the arms of the Stone Men left in ruin, the protection of the Iron Men in the last years of the Dark Age of Technology....
the text continues, but the above section seems most pertinent to our discussion of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Stone Race -Theories
The text talks of the Stone Men being the "second men" If the Golden race comes form the cradel of humanity, Earth, then perhaps the term "second men" is in reference to those born on another planet...such as Mars. Due to the differences in gravity and environment, those initially born on Mars would be the physical inferiors of humans born on Earth.
The text also speaks of miracles of technology...this could be in reference to the terraforming of Marsand the build of space fleets to carry exploration and clonization further into the solar system and then interstellar space.
Stone Men might be a reference to the original habitations on Mars which would most likely be undergroung or built into the Martian surface. It could also be in reference to their disposition, which might be as harsh as the enviroment with which they must contend.
It seems likely based on the text, that Mars supplanted Earth as the seat of government...or at least as the seat of government for further expansion into the solar system and beyond. One of the major reasons for this would be resources.
By the tme of expansion into space, Earth must have been pretty much played out. It would not be able to provide the necessary resources to support outward expansion. Mars being onl recently colonized was a new frontier full of unexploited resources. Economically Earth would have difficulty competing.
There is also the issue of balkanization. The cooperation necessary to fund the construction of space ships and exploration would bankrupt most countries. Getting countries to work together on such projects would have its own obstacles. If Mars had been colonized by one authority or at least one major authority, then it would have the resources of the enetire planet at its disposal.
More to follow, but for the moment I have to sign off.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 14, 2005 11:20:01 GMT -5
Evolution of Hives
I know that you are not fond of the concept of Hive cities Kage, but while working over a couple of scenarios for the colonization and terraforming of Mars, I came to realize that hive cities...or at least the beginning of hive cities may have had their outgrowth from the concept of boomtowns.
I plan on covering more about Mars in another thread, but in order to discuss the developement of the Hives of Mars, I'll outline some of the concepts here.
Boomtowns occur when there is a large influx of population over a short period of time into an existing town or area. This influx of population has occured historically for several reasons.
1. Gold Rush
Boomtowns sprung up overnight during the mid to late 1800s in the American west as large gold strikes were made and large numbers of people rushed in to try to strike it rich.
2. Immigration
New York and its subburbs saw a marked increase in population as more and more immigrants arrived in America and were processed through Ellis Island. This centralized processing center for immigrants all but assured an increase in population density.
3. Industrial Revolution
As the steel industry grew in such places as Pennsylvania, people flocked into Pittsburg, Harrisburg and other steel towns. This concentrated the population density in specific sections of the state.
4. Large Civic Projects
During the construction of Hoover Dam (in Nevada) The government constructed an entirely new city (Boulder City) to house the workers. This planned city came to house as many as 21,000 people as construction on the Dam continued. This included not only the workers, but their families and all of the support staff necessary to make a viable community (schools, movie theaters, etc).
These are just a couple of scenarios for the emergence of Boomtowns. If we now take into account the movement of population to an alien planet, one or several of these scenarios combined could have lead to the developement of a hive city. (sorry for the brevity. I will provide a more detailed explanation in an up comming thread).
The original vision of the hive-city may have been closer in concept to that of the arcology, as envisioned by Paolo Soleri and Frank Lloyd Wright in the 1940s. The dystopian structures of the 41 millenium serve as nothing more than sad parrodies of this original design.
The arcology concept proposes an integrated and compact three-dimensional urban form to conteract urban sprawl. It was an attempt to create a community that addressed the wastes created by urban sprawl...which is inherently wasteful in land, energy and time.
Such a design would have served well on Mars. Minimizing space and waste would have been a necessity. It could also be that the hives that are most prevalent in the 40k fluff are also an outgrowth of the original designs meant for Mars.
Part of the terraforming process would have required the production of CFCs or other greenhouse gasses in order to raise the temperature of the planet. While this would be a neccessity for a world such as Mars, the same design on a more earth normal world would cause a major ecological disaster.
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