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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 5, 2005 18:46:13 GMT -5
The only problem with this entire premise is that it allows for a scaled increase in efficiency - or whatever - of a technological artefact by increasing 'technology level'. This is not necessarily the case and, once again, I remind you that the TL system is just a guideline; a framework to allow the construction of fairly meaningful discussion rather than the haphazard "anthingoes-ium" that is normally permissible within the mish-mash of technology (juxtaposition would be a better word if you, for some reason, actually like this approach something that I have found more common in those who care overly concerned with the "Image"). What am I saying? Merely that the gains in producing a low-tech product with high-tech are minimal when compared against the introduction of alternative technologies at the higher tech-level. I would love to. But damned if I can remember. It was an article talking about the adeptus mechanicus I'm fairly sure. Regardless, the problem is that the 'image' of the world doesn't entirely come off as 'right'. That in and of itself makes me entirely suspicious... Mars gets more radiation, true, but the fact that the atmosphere is hostile to life is a problem as well. That and the -50 oC temperatures. It is something that even GW tends not to think about, as you can with the posts on the BL forum. It leads to rather horrendously weak (sorry) arguments about the dominance of the organic without seeming reference to the premise behind the adeptus mechanicus itself. That is entirely possible, likely indeed. Some have even given it a name in one specific example: the Dragon Cult. This is why a hierarchal based system of advancement and 'technological knowledge' is not only consistent with the concept of the adeptus mechanicus but also allows significant lattitude. People are going to make their own judgements and bring their own preferences to the game universe anyway. The idea here is to present a balanced approach that explains it rather than going, "Hey, you can have what you want." It's a quality of writing thing rather than defining every single little feature. Yet this knowledge then disappears with the adeptus mechanicus? Or is there something more... nefarious going on? It was my understanding that this was the 'fluff'. AFAIK the "Liber Mechanicus" had a number of problems with it. No it is not, but that is also not the point in hand since it is a period between 'Ages' as defined by the historians. Call it a 'hiatus'. The Imperium is not manifest until the formalisation of many of the power structures by Guilliman. Furthermore, the Great Crusade arguably continues into the Age of the Imperium, but that doesn't mean it wasn't distinct. Exactly. The Imperium doesn't technically exist until after the Great Crusade. Great way to argue against yourself! True, but think about this in a purely logistics sense. The Emperor is having to a heck of a great deal of things in a very, very, very short time period. On that I would agree with you, hence the 'wave theory' that I have advocated in the past (and as stated above). The point here is that there is a great deal of 'suspension of disbelief' going on with the 'fluff'. It is also something that is hamstrung with Image Feedback, something that you can increasingly seen in GW material. I think it is best to use the term Omnissiah in reference to the Emperor. After all, it seems a rather obvious bastardisation of 'All Messiah'. Let the Machine God remain the Machine God, and let his 'avatar' by the Omnissiah. Of course you also get into rather interesting ground on what the TechPriests that thought the Emperoror wasn't the Omnissiah thought that the Omnissiah would be! That wasn't the direction that I had in mind actually. Change it away from American English! If elaboration leads to problems, the chances are that there is something wrong with the 'fluff' itself. I would say a 'no', to that. While the membership of the adeptus mechanicus might be huge I would suggest that the number of significant 'scientists' is much, much lower. As you said, it behoves us to cater to those people that believe TechPriests worship microwave ovens. Nominally, in the same way that all people in the Imperium adhere to the Cult Mechanicus. Again, think about that one! I would strongly suggest that the adeptus mechanicus be viewed as something other than just a boorish church.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 5, 2005 18:46:40 GMT -5
As in the be-all and end-all...
Good, good...
Ack, I hate the term "Mechanicum Parliament", but the premise is a good one. I'm fine with the idea that the 'paramount' individual of a given adeptus is ultimately answerable to that organisation. There is far too much of the idea that the High Lord is the 'most powerful individual in the universe' without reference to the source of that power.
With a bit of discussion I would be more than willing to help... This is my 'meat and veg', as it were.
And by 'help' I mean more than just saying "write about this".
Surely it is more likely that people are going to know about the wargame aspects?
Now that is a good historical approach, although requires that the motivations behind such transition be addressed beyond the generic and bland "It's the Iron Men's fault, guv'nor" approach advocated by GW and its employees.
This movement away from robots to Praetorians might have taken place for a host of reasons:
Good point... while mechanical systems are harder to 'create', programming of them might be considered inherently simpler than the biological.
But regardless of this, it creates a spectrum of activity and not just the monolithic revision such as currently being suggested on BL to boorish extremes. (Again, sorry.)
Yet the utilisation of such machines is less humane, somewhat ironically.
Good for you... Personally I find the childish requirement of the 'fluff' to try and separate itself from anything that has gone before as well as the premise of Image Feedback to be similarly the worst thing that could happen to the universe.
Right, we all know where we stand.
See my signature.
I'm not advocating the legio cybernetica, just saying that perspective is required.
For the most part, yes.
With regards to 'help' in producing something that is not entirely orientated around the wargame, I'm sure that both myself and Destecado are more than interested. (Sorry for speaking for you Destecado, I'm basing this merely on your posts previously in both this and other threads.) Personally I find the provision of the 'glue' to be easy, but sometimes my knowledge of the new 'fluff' is lacking (along with my desire to make everything consistent only with the new 'fluff').
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Post by CELS on Feb 6, 2005 7:34:25 GMT -5
What am I saying? Merely that the gains in producing a low-tech product with high-tech are minimal when compared against the introduction of alternative technologies at the higher tech-level. I would have to agree with that. Primitive technologies obviously have certain restrictions. Even with GTL13, you probably can't make a steam engine go supersonic. And then there's the fact that some technologies can only be taken so far. For example, with the technology used to make computer processors today, we're going to reach the limitations of that technology in a decade or something. In other words, you can't have a GTL13 Pentium II processor, obviously. The only two reasons I have for why the Mechanicus would keep making low-tech machines, such as trains with steam engines, is A) It's cheap and requires few materials, and B) Religious reasons. Well, I've never come across any official fluff that describes Mars before the Age of Strife. I guess I'll have to find some other way to explain why the Cult Mechanicus was born, rather than radiation. But that's the point. Let's say these are the three things that make Mars inhospitable. Now, they fixed the atmosphere by some advanced terraforming. Introducing bacteria and algae that slowly but surely made the atmosphere more hospitable, adding water, etc. Finally, they made some force field to stop radiation. Now, when the force field was damaged, the atmosphere and temperature was still right, but the planet was still inhospitable because of the radiation. Fair enough. As mentioned above, I will add something about the potential ignorance of tech priests. No one knows.... Well, there's always the option of explaining things with the master plan of the Emperor. He took all his technology, and he gave this to the Adeptus Mechanicus. (So far, we're only reproducing fluff, since the fluff mentions that the Mechanicus embraced the Emperor because of all the lost technology he brought) Perhaps the Emperor intentionally gave the Mechanicus their 'monopoly on technology'. Perhaps it was one of their demands. Perhaps it was a necessary solution. We know that Terra had a lot of advanced technology and lost secrets, but that doesn't mean it had an overall high tech level. Just because they had the ability to create GTL11 Power armour doesn't mean that they had an overall tech level that was that high. Nice try, Kage, but I didn't ;D The Imperium did exist before the Great Crusade. It was not founded by Guiliman. He may have formalised many of the power structures after the Heresy, but that was not the birth of the Imperium. He merely reshaped the Imperium. When the fluff says that the "Horus Heresy plunged the Imperium into savagery and civil war" (WD#184), how can this be true if the Imperium did not exist untill after the Great Crusade? How can Guilliman assimilate "the many wonders of the Imperium" as soon as he is discovered by the Emperor, if the Imperium does not yet exist? There are many mentions of the Imperium in the Great Crusade, though I can't list them since I don't have my books with me. You agreed that birth of the Imperium is the beginning of the Age of the Imperium. Apparently, the Age of the Imperium begins with the Great Crusade. As soon as the Emperor has united Earth (or maybe before), this is the beginning of the Imperium. Aye. But I'm not arguing against your wave theory. Fair enough. I always thought Omnissiah was a bastardisation of 'Messiah' and 'Omniscient' though, out of interest. Indeed. At the risk of insulting someone, I guess they had similar expectations to the Jews, when Jesus came You forget the type of evil we're dealing with here. This is Microsoft. If I change it away from American English, it will only be changed back the next time I turn on the computer Or the author. Or the autor's motivation to elaborate.. Sometimes it's cool to just have a few interesting comments here and there. Or at least, that's how I like to write. Fair enough. Ok. We'll see how I rewrite the essay when we've sorted things out a bit. I don't understand what you mean, since I would strongly suggest the same...
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Post by CELS on Feb 6, 2005 7:48:32 GMT -5
Ack, I hate the term "Mechanicum Parliament", but the premise is a good one. I'm fine with the idea that the 'paramount' individual of a given adeptus is ultimately answerable to that organisation. Oh yes. I'm sure that if the Fabricator General decided to ego-trip, assassins would be sent from Mars (and Emperor's knows where) pretty quickly. But he's still pretty powerful. I'm always open for discussion. Just let me sort out these initial problems, and we can start discussing that side of the Mechnicus in a more orderly fashion. Some people, yes. But from the endless number of silly wargame-related threads on Portent, I think it's evident that there are a lot of ignorant people. And in my more self-aggrandising moments, I like to think I actually added something to the wargame information. Yes, I think we all agree that perspective is a good thing. That doesn't really change my sentiments and thoughts concerning the Legio Cybernetica.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 6, 2005 14:33:17 GMT -5
I would have to agree with that. Primitive technologies obviously have certain restrictions. Even with GTL13, you probably can't make a steam engine go supersonic. I also find the example being 'discussed' on Portent at the moment to be quite interesting, i.e. with modern techniques available many 'swordsmiths' utilise very few of those. The only two reasons I have for why the Mechanicus would keep making low-tech machines, such as trains with steam engines, is A) It's cheap and requires few materials, and B) Religious reasons. The second 'reason' is something that I have mentioned before and, for me, is about the only semi-plausible reason to have this juxtaposition of technology... on forgeworlds, anyway. On other worlds it becomes harder to explain the utilisation of different tech systems without recourse to more, well, normal explanations. I guess I'll have to find some other way to explain why the Cult Mechanicus was born, rather than radiation. Assuming that they maintained the technology to dig, it would seem strange that they wouldn't just move underground. But, yes, alternative and plausible explanations based out of the 'fluff' would be useful... It's just that the image is not sufficient an explanation at this juncture. A place to start... Finally, they made some force field to stop radiation. It's one of those 'unnecessary' features. Thickening up the atmosphere is going to do a great deal to stop radiation without recourse to superscience. Construction within mesa faces, or whatever, would also go to ameliorate the situation. Fair enough. As mentioned above, I will add something about the potential ignorance of tech priests. I'm also thinking about conceptualising, and perhaps even writing up, something more detailed on this up to and including the scholastic process in the adeptus mechanicus in general. I might even set it on Proteus... So far, we're only reproducing fluff, since the fluff mentions that the Mechanicus embraced the Emperor because of all the lost technology he brought... Does it say that? I always thought that they accepted him as Omnissiah because of his knowledge, not what he brought with him. Indeed, if you're to accept that the Emperor didn't unit Earth until the very end of the Age of Strife and that the Cult of the Machine had been going for quite some time by then... Well, it's not as if the Emperor had the resources to bring that much. Knowledge on the other hand... It's a fine point, but there we go. Just because they had the ability to create GTL11 Power armour doesn't mean that they had an overall tech level that was that high. GTL11? Wow, thats way above what I would put the Imperium at. The PA that came out of Earth seems only to have been, at the most, around GTL8 or 9. It's only with the adeptus mechanicus that it seems to get significantly better. Or, at least, those are the rose-tinted glasses that I prefer to look at them through. but that was not the birth of the Imperium. He merely reshaped the Imperium. <grin> Doesn't change the fact that the Imperium was not fossilised into its presents structure until after both the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. When the fluff says that the "Horus Heresy plunged the Imperium into savagery and civil war" (WD#184)... Ah, that's new 'fluff' to me. And it's pretty easy to explain since consistency has always been an issue with the writers. Aye. But I'm not arguing against your wave theory. That wasn't the point. Fair enough. I always thought Omnissiah was a bastardisation of 'Messiah' and 'Omniscient' though, out of interest. That's what I was saying. Omnis is the latin for "all". You forget the type of evil we're dealing with here. This is Microsoft. If I change it away from American English, it will only be changed back the next time I turn on the computer Chance the Normal template to UK English as default. Or at least, that's how I like to write. As long as there are suggestions or answers to the questions. I have too often seen 'fluff' that leaves bits "open", or that is the justification, when it is more a case that they cannot fill in the gap or do not know where to take it. Not saying that is the case here, but one doesn't want to go too far down a route where this cncan be said. I don't understand what you mean, since I would strongly suggest the same... Good, good... I'm just keen that while we recognise that the adeptus mechanicus are a religious body that they do not necessarily just "mouth off" at scripture, or whatever. (I'm adding that this is not the case with religion generally, but I've seen somea rgue that this is the case.) But he's still pretty powerful. The same as any leader... but the authority is there as long as people support them.
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Post by CELS on Feb 6, 2005 17:09:09 GMT -5
It's one of those 'unnecessary' features. Thickening up the atmosphere is going to do a great deal to stop radiation without recourse to superscience. Construction within mesa faces, or whatever, would also go to ameliorate the situation. I wouldn't know, but if you have a fair idea of the amount of radiation on Mars, I'll take your word for it. What are mesa faces though? That sounds interesting! On second thought, I didn't choose my words with enough care. They accepted him as Omnissiah because of his knowledge, but also embraced him because of the technology that he brought with him. The fluff says both. Not for me to say. I don't have the problem with fluff, in this area. Erm, ok, I guess you didn't see my point. Whatever the tech level of the Emperor's most precious and valuable technology was, who's to say that this was the average tech level of Earth? Erm, no, I'll give you that. Of course, I also said so in my previous post Indeed. But the fact that the Imperium was created before the Horus Heresy is relatively certain. Oh. What was the point then? How do you do that? Though I can't be sure because of the English terms, I suspect that I have already tried that. Looks like this discussion has come to something of a halt. I'll start rewriting the current version of the essay, and then we can start discussing the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 6, 2005 18:12:29 GMT -5
I wouldn't know, but if you have a fair idea of the amount of radiation on Mars, I'll take your word for it. What are mesa faces though? I'm probably using the wrong geographic term. But ultimately I'm thinking that construction behind 'lots' of stone is quite common. Yep. And the kind of thing that I love doing. Just not somehing that I normally have the time to do on this project. but also embraced him because of the technology that he brought with him. The fluff says both. Do you have a URL/transcription of the 'fluff'? Unlike many people I don't slavically pour over 'fluff' source after 'fluff' source. Everything comes for the most part from memory, so any "reminder" is always worthwhile. Not for me to say. I don't have the problem with fluff, in this area. So this is a point that you accept without question? Erm, ok, I guess you didn't see my point. Whatever the tech level of the Emperor's most precious and valuable technology was, who's to say that this was the average tech level of Earth? No, I saw the point but you used a bad number that wasn't entirely consistent with the 'fluff' and, equally, bought into some of the inapplicable (for me) assumptions. With that as an aside it comes down to the fact that the entire 'fluff' on the end of the Age of Strife, the Great Crusade, etc., doesn't make a great deal of sense. Erm, no, I'll give you that. Of course, I also said so in my previous post As I did in the one before that. You define the Imperium as anything involving the Emperor. I define it as involving the current 'structures' that are associated with it (i.e. adeptus terra). This is, however, the ultimate form of pendatic posting! How do you do that? Though I can't be sure because of the English terms, I suspect that I have already tried that. Try and alter the "normal" template document. Looks like this discussion has come to something of a halt. But it's nature, yes. and then we can start discussing the non-military divisions of the Adeptus Mechanicus. That would be a novelty, yes...
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Post by CELS on Feb 7, 2005 8:35:24 GMT -5
I'm probably using the wrong geographic term. But ultimately I'm thinking that construction behind 'lots' of stone is quite common. Oh. Well, yeah, but I guess it's rather expensive to constantly keep digging, to make underground hives. And then there's the danger of the underground hives collapsing, I suppose. Well, now that things have slowed down a bit (hopefully momentarily), this is a perfect opportunity to do what you love Erm, I can't remember where I read it at the moment. Not to boast, but I've read so much fluff that it all tends to merge into a large undivided blob. I will have to get back to you on that. But here is a part of the fluff I've been working on- [url=http://www.pa-sy.com/hhccg/The Horus Heresy CCG[/url]. Near the bottom, you'll find the history cards. I can question it, but I don't have enough information to raise clever questions. We don't know enough about Earth or the amount of military hardware that the Emperor brought with him, nor the size of his armies and fleets in the beginning (or the height) of the Great Crusade. All we know is that he had a lot of Space Marines, and later a lot of normal soldiers. I agree that, like so many other areas in the 40k fluff, there are some things there that aren't realistic. But I for one am not willing to 'pull a Philip' (No offence, Philip, and feel free to disagree with me) and make significant changes to the most important parts of the fluff. LoL! Well, most of our previous discussions tend to go that way, so why stop now? (Not pointing any fingers, mind) And where do you do that?
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Post by CELS on Feb 7, 2005 11:19:50 GMT -5
Hmph... after pondering for a while now, I've realised that something very special must have happened that gave rise to the Cult Mechanicus. After all, the main reasons 'believe' are 1) Lack of understanding, 2) The need for meaning in the universe and 3) Fear of death. Examples... Why is there lightning during storms? Well, that's because Zeus/Thor/Whomever is doing it. Why was I born? Well, that was obviously so God could test my soul and see whether or not he wanted me in Heaven. What happens when I die? Well, I will sit beside the Emperor and Leman Russ in the Great Hall and drink beer for all eternity. So, as much as I know Kage will hate this, I'm having difficulties figuring out not only how the Cult Mechanicus came to life i nthe first place, but also how they actually managed to achieve 'total world domination'. The obvious and typical GW route is to say that there was some sort of disaster (like a war ) that killed most of the people on Mars, including most scientists. The people who survived were left in a world with an abundance of advanced machines and equipment, that they did not really understand. Like most old people view computers, these survivors looked upon the arcane machines as something entirely mystical. Eventually, they learned to use many of the machines, though they did not really understand them at first. Since most of the people on Mars were dead, taking control of the planet was fairly easy. In time, the Cult Mechanicus developed a rather good understanding of science and the ancient machines, but maintained their culture and their religion. So... 1) Does anyone have a suggestion for what would kill all these people? The Liber Mechanicus says that lack of maintenance lead to the failing of radiation shields, and that radiation killed most of the population. 2) Does anyone have any other suggestion that does not involve some huge natural disaster, or war, or both? And then, one that does not contradict the fluff in a spectacular fashion?
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Post by Destecado on Feb 7, 2005 12:44:25 GMT -5
Please don¡¦t take this as an attempt by me to try to sneak the Legio Cybernetica in the back door. I posted the fluff for its information on robots. It was meant as historical data and not the current state of things. Wrong / outdated. Robots are machines, and machines can be corrupted by chaos. The fluff shows many examples of this. I agree that the statements are inaccurate, but we need to look at it based on the time at which it was written. A agree that the fluff includes many examples of chaos possessed land raiders or Rubric Marines (possessed space marine armor to name a few, but based on how things are phrased within the fluff it makes it sound like these occurrences were unknown at the time. Some of the fluff that we consider ¡§wrong¡¨ might at one time have been considered ¡§correct¡¨ based on the information available at the time. Using an example from history, consider the pesticide DDT. Today, we know the detrimental effects of DDT on the ecosystem and on the reproduction of several species of birds (the most publicized being the American Bald Eagle). Before this information was known however, DDT was touted as the greatest thing since sliced bread. There was actually PSA (Public Service Announcement) that showed kids swimming in public pools while a DDT fog was sprayed in the air to keep the mosquitoes away. It also showed trucks driving through a neighborhood sending out a fog of DDT, with smiling kids running behind the truck. Of course now that we know the harmful effects of DDT, the information presented in the PSA seems totally wrong. Based on the Adeptus Mechanicus¡¦ way of thinking, the fact that machines could not be corrupted would have fed right into the fundamental Laws under which was organized. (Universal Laws taken from that link on the Eplorator Warbands I sent to you). Fifteenth Universal Law: Flesh is Fallible, but Ritual Honours the Machine Spirit. The Adeptus Mechanicus¡¦ instruments and rituals are all based around the concrete knowledge of scientific laws and the mechanics of reality (the materium). Things such as the warp, which can twist and pervert a machine in much the same manner as flesh would not have be deemed possible by the tech priests. Once such possessed machines became known, they would have had to consider how to explain such occurrences. Since we are talking of a cult which venerates machines as embodying their deity, they might attribute such perversion of technology to the weakness of flesh or the corruption by outside forces. As angels in the Catholic religion could fall, machines could be turned away from their intended use. It would therefore be the job of the Tech priests to ¡§save¡¨ such machines or destroy them, since they had turned from their true function (path). Granted not all tech priests would be this fanatical. Based on the article, it seems that the Adeptus Mechanicus is divided into several factions or Heresies the same manner as the Inquisition. These are what can be considered as puritan and radical factions. Outdated. There is so much fiction and fluff on the Inquisition that it's not even funny, yet there is no mention of the Legio Cybernetica after Rogue Trader days. Like the Squats, the Legio Cybernetica has been abandoned by GW. And for a reason. Phased out of existence perhaps or perhaps given a different mission. I hope your not saying that they were all swallowed by the Tyranids. ƒº Although there are no longer knights on horseback riding into battle, Knightly Societies still exist. It could be that the Legio Cybernetica has moved away from robots into implanting the prostheses and other equipment into the cybernetically altered troops of the armies of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Ack, I hate the term "Mechanicum Parliament", but the premise is a good one. I'm fine with the idea that the 'paramount' individual of a given adeptus is ultimately answerable to that organisation. There is far too much of the idea that the High Lord is the 'most powerful individual in the universe' without reference to the source of that power. Instead of Mechanicum Parliament, what about calling it the Prime Circuit or simply the Circuit. Of course the word circuit has definitions which link it to computers and other technology, but it is also used when talking about an association of similar groups¡Ksynonymous with League. It can also mean a group of church congregations ministered to by one pastor or a group of communities assigned as a territory for a judge or court official (example: third circuit court of appeals). Are we assuming that the main governmental body of the Adeptus Mechanicus is on Mars? Would not each forge world, Knight World and other Adeptus facilities each have their own governing body or circuit? Perhaps they send representatives to the Prime circuit on Mars or the main legislative body is only called up rarely to deal with issues that affect the entire Adeptus Mechanicus. At these times a conclave is called and representatives travel from all over the galaxy beck to Mars. I'm sure that both myself and Destecado are more than interested. (Sorry for speaking for you Destecado, I'm basing this merely on your posts previously in both this and other threads.). No worries. I'll help out where ever I can.
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Post by CELS on Feb 7, 2005 14:43:05 GMT -5
Please don¡¦t take this as an attempt by me to try to sneak the Legio Cybernetica in the back door. I didn't take it that way. I just wince every time someone mentions the Legio Cybernetica. It's like when someone wants to discuss Dark Eldar with Kage. He doesn't refuse other people talking about them; he just doesn't like them himself. Thus, he tends not to discuss Dark Eldar in the Eldar sourcebook, for example. Historical in terms of RT-era vs 4th Edition fluff, or M30-something vs M41? A fair assumption. Maybe not, but I seem to recall that the fluff suggests that all Tech Priests are pretty fanatical about destroying possessed Titans, etc. Nope. I'm saying they were put out of use by the Adeptus Mechanicus, for whatever reason. Like how the nuclear bomb is no longer in use. Of course, that doesn't mean that there are no nuclear bombs out there. Could be, but I would personally doubt this very much. Robots are totally gone from the fluff. In every situation where you might expect to see robots, you see servitors instead. Obviously, it would be cheaper to make primitive robots most of the time, rather than using servitors. I'm going to risk summary execution by Kage and say that it goes by two names. Mechanicum Parliament, and something else. Prime Circuit doesn't sound quite right, but I do like the use of 'circuit'. It's like my other fluff heresy, where I write in my Inquisition article that the Inquisitorial Representative is also called the Master of the Inquisition, though he is in fact not the leader of the organisation. A rather crude way of merging old and new fluff, I guess. My current idea is that instead of having the handful of individuals directly below the Fabricator General function only as filters of information (as I originally intended), they are actually part of the parliament. So, no, they're not on Mars, but they communicate via the information network between the forgeworlds. I guess there would be less than hundred such individuals in the Adeptus Mechanicus, spread across the Imperium. That is the idea. For example, the ruler of Proteus bears the title of Archmagos Ultima. Maybe, but I also like the idea that the parliament is never actually assembled physically in one place. When one reads the world 'parliament', one immediately thinks of a big assembly of old people in a big hall. I think it would be interesting if the Mechanicus solved this in a different manner. Like a VIP chat room in the martian internet
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 7, 2005 22:58:42 GMT -5
This is my favoured approach to the 'fluff' where possible and ultimate goal of the project at present. It doesn't necessarily presuppose the validity of one edition over the other, but rather attempts to integrate them into a seeming whole. Blantant Revisionism, more so when it is for the sake of revision, is the only thing to be avoided. That inspires to some rather interesting 'tenets' of the Cult Mechanicus. Perhaps this bears some more thinking about since this is just the type of thing that we could include in an 'article' as a form of 'colour' text... It is clear from the 'fluff' that the adeptus mechanius did know about the warp and, at least, some of the stranger aspects of it. With that said, however, it behoves us to remember that despite some of the newer 'fluff' which tends to imply that the warp is a known commodity it is, well, not. Yes, you can model it or the most part on the short-term but anything else...? No. Indeed, remember the original 'fluff' on the eldar stated that they had made the conceptual leap and were amongst the only race to link the warp with psychic phenomenon! With that said, though, Destecado then goes on to say: Exactly. They create models for it and try to understand it. That is the nature of their 'worship' to the Machine God. It is also clear that they do utilise 'warp technologies', so it does come under their aegis as 'machine technology'. A very good point. Ritualism motivated through animism is the perfect means by which the 'machine spirit' can be appeased. This works regardless of the nature of the spirit... And, despite what Phillip tries to argue elsewhere, the Machine Spirit is significantly different than purely biological concepts of 'spirit' even though they obviously play a part. (Although whether this is a part of the Cult Mechanicus or rather a moderation or 'tip 'o the hat' to the belief structures of the Imperium is another matter.) The puritanical extension of the argument to the 'control' and/or 'destruction' of technology that does not conform to the defined essence (read: STC) is a very good, indeed much better, validation than currently exists. <sigh> Get your terminology right, Destecado! - Philosophy = Inquisitorial faction = approach to technology.
- Faction = political stance with regards to integration or whatever with the Imperium.
- Paradigm = Interaction of philosophy and faction as represented on specific forgeworlds. (CELS' rather excellent and very 'fluffalogical' addition to the sheer brilliance of the original suggestion! )
It is also amusing to note that cybernetics are given a prime position in Iron Hands, an otherwise... erm... dubious novel. Why not simply "Symposium"? Perhaps I'm just too used to archaeological 'symposiums' which, given the definition of the word, is far more appropriate than you would imagine! It seems more a case of a structured hierarchy based around the concept of 'holy', i.e. the oldest in this case. Mars would be the 'head honcho', then moving out in reference to the 'age' of the Forgeworld in question. Do not forget the Holy Altar system... To be fair it's only because I'm starting from the more solid vision of the craftworld eldar and then only moving out to the more conceptually dubious Exodites and Dark Eldar with the Menzoba... *cough* sorry... Commoragh. It would be ideal to incorporate it into the story of the 40k universe rather than taking the simplistic approach normally used by GW: "New is True", otherwise known as Revisionism. I'm sure that we can prove that it doesn't take much mental effort to integrate things with greater aplomb than done in the 'fluff'. On that, based upon the posters and the imagination shown thus far, I'm almost entirely certain! That would be consistent with Iron Hands as well. But that works with the above defining logic, as well. (Unlike the book, which was a pile of pants if only for the fact that it reminds you that cybenetics are superior to 'flesh' in many ways, yet they are not utilised in a consistent fashion!) And that is the historical 'fluff' that ultimately Destecado is getting at and which I prefer. <grin> Oh yes, because it is too destructive. Darn the Imperium for caring about the environment when it performs exterminatus on a world! How Dune! Revisionism, pure and simple. GW also have a knee-jerk reaction about making their game universe 'unique'. So perhaps the question is what are the control mechanisms of servitors that make them cheaper than robots? This is where the RPG comes into play once more. LOL. Execution has been postponed. I'm not going to allow Parliament since it is, well, not right. But Prime Circuit also doesn't work. I suggest scouring modern day science for appropriate inspiration. You did? Wow, I'm going to have to go over there and disagree with this... I would suggest that his is analogous to the senatorum imperialis and, indeed, other organisations of the adeptus terra. Thus in that regard agree. Always probably best to avoid confusion with segmentum...? Agreed. And, "once-a-bloody-gain": Holy Altar!
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 7, 2005 23:41:53 GMT -5
And now that I find a hidden post, as it were... I've realised that something very special must have happened that gave rise to the Cult Mechanicus. Ah, that main pathology: Disbelieveabum Humanity with a healthy dose of Notachance-ium. Examples... Why is there lightning during storms? Well, that's because Zeus/Thor/Whomever is doing it. Why was I born? This is an example, for me, of where the premise of the 'Cult Mechancius' as a religion falls short. It assumes the ultimate invalidty of a religion since it works off 'faith'. Yet the 'religion' of the adeptus mechanicus works off the prooving of faith... And this is where one gets into the paradox. One doesn't necessarily exist, or at least is required to exist, if one moves away from the superficial 'fluff'. So, as much as I know Kage will hate this, I'm having difficulties figuring out not only how the Cult Mechanicus came to life i nthe first place, but also how they actually managed to achieve 'total world domination'. How can I hate someone for providing the foundations for a reinterpretation of bad material? The obvious and typical GW route is to say that there was some sort of disaster (like a war ) that killed most of the people on Mars, including most scientists. Im afraid that is already GW's 'fluf' without the thougth. Like most old people view computers, these survivors looked upon the arcane machines as something entirely mystical. Context is extremely important here !
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Post by CELS on Feb 8, 2005 12:30:20 GMT -5
Why not simply "Symposium"? Perhaps I'm just too used to archaeological 'symposiums' which, given the definition of the word, is far more appropriate than you would imagine! Simply looking at their definition, symposium does indeed seem more appropriate than both the 'Mechanicum Parliament' and the 'Prime Circuit', for what I had in mind. I'm going to suggest that the Parliament was dissolved following the Horus Heresy, and replaced by the 'Symposium'. I would love it if it were a double name though, like 'Mechanicum Symposium' or 'Martian Symposium', but I'm not too fond of either of these suggestions... Oh, so you will eventually deal with the Exodites and Dark Eldar? How about the Harlequins? This reminds me of an Eldar question I have... What about Eldar pirates? Will you deal with these? (Maybe slightly Off-T here, but...) By some, they are criticised for stealing ideas from everyone else. By others, they are criticised for wanting to be original. It's a tough world out there I for one appreciate the 'unique' universe GW has created. But I guess I've already made my feelings about the robots clear, haven't I? ;D That, for me, would be asking the wrong question. I'm going to insist that robots are outlawed, and not just expensive. Sorry, I'm quite stubborn when it comes to the robots. The 'ultima' title was inspired from the Ecclessiarchy hierarchy, I think. As in Pontifex Ultima. I'll look in to it when I come home though. LoL! Yes, yes, calm down... And now that I find a hidden post, as it were... Darn, I was hoping no one would find it Don't follow, I'm afraid. If this is criticism, please explain. I think I follow... And then you lost me again Pretty much. I would just be reinterpreting the disaster and its consequences. If someone has a better idea, this is the time to speak up. If not, I shall simply have to work with my limited imagination, and take the obvious path.
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Post by Destecado on Feb 8, 2005 13:26:10 GMT -5
This is my favoured approach to the 'fluff' where possible and ultimate goal of the project at present. It doesn't necessarily presuppose the validity of one edition over the other, but rather attempts to integrate them into a seeming whole. Blantant Revisionism, more so when it is for the sake of revision, is the only thing to be avoided. Many people will argue that because the assertions of a given edition contradict the most recent information they are false. We have all seen movies and television shows or read books with what can be termed “dated” material. Though this dated material may eventually be invalidated by future editions, I like you Kage do not feel that this makes the dated material false. It instead provides insights into the minds of those that lived during another era. It gives a window on how people of this past era viewed the world and the things around them. I know it is a bit clichéd, but an example of this from the world of today would be how Americans view the world since 9-11. Before 9-11, Americans pretty much had a feeling of invulnerability…that terrorism was something that happened elsewhere. The attacks made us rethink our security and how we live our daily lives. Taking the example of possessed machine, before being confronted with the reality of this occurring, your average techno-magos would probably think it was an impossibility or highly unlikely. It is only when they are confronted with the existence of such things, that they must call into question how they perceive the world around them and the possibility of the fallibility of their knowledge. With regards to revisionism, I think that this to has its place…only if it is recognized as such. Revisionism has happen in our own world history even as far back as ancient Egypt. Unpopular pharaohs might have al of their likenesses destroyed and their cartouche (name) expunged from all walls. It was an attempt to remove these pharaohs from recorded history and to thereby deny them an afterlife. Example: the pharaoh Akhenaten, who attempted to create a monotheistic religion in ancient Egypt that worshiped the sun god Re. Revisionism should be allowed as long as it is pointed out as revisionism. That inspires to some rather interesting 'tenets' of the Cult Mechanicus. Perhaps this bears some more thinking about since this is just the type of thing that we could include in an 'article' as a form of 'colour' text... The information about the 16 Universal Laws which are the under lying tenets of Adeptus Mechanicus society came from an article on Explorator Warbands for the Inquisitor Game. (see link for entire article). www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/assets/pdf/unoff/emplorwarband.pdfUnfortunately, they do not list all 16 Universal Laws, but the ones that are listed do provide insight on the thought processes of the techno-magos. It is clear from the 'fluff' that the adeptus mechanius did know about the warp and, at least, some of the stranger aspects of it. With that said, however, it behoves us to remember that despite some of the newer 'fluff' which tends to imply that the warp is a known commodity it is, well, not. Yes, you can model it or the most part on the short-term but anything else...? I don’t deny that the Adeptus Mechanichus had some knowledge of warp space. Without it, warp capable ships would be impossible to construct. The depths to which this knowledge extended though are open for debate. I would say that their knowledge would mostly pertain to the near warp, where the natural laws on which their machines and the materium operate still held some sway. The deeper warp would be more of a mystery. You might have some specialized groups of Adepts who delved into a study of this “place” that seemed to defy all natural laws. These researchers would probably be seen as wasting valuable time and resources. If you compare the Adeptus Mechanicus to the Technocracy from MtA, then those that delve into the mysteries of the deep warp could probably be equated with the Sons of Ether. A very good point. Ritualism motivated through animism is the perfect means by which the 'machine spirit' can be appeased. This works regardless of the nature of the spirit... And, despite what Phillip tries to argue elsewhere, the Machine Spirit is significantly different than purely biological concepts of 'spirit' even though they obviously play a part. (Although whether this is a part of the Cult Mechanicus or rather a moderation or 'tip 'o the hat' to the belief structures of the Imperium is another matter.) It may have started out as a “tip-o-the-hat” to the Imperium, but it also serves as a great way to manipulate the uninitiated members of the order. Since novices would be drawn from everyday society, they would be initiated into the “mysteries” of the Adeptus Mechanicus. The rituals serve as a method of learning and indoctrination…instead of needing a manual, novices learn to “fix” machines by rote (like a father teaching his son how to change the oil on the family car). As a novice learns more rituals, they gain the ability to “repair” or maintain more machines. At this point they would graduate to the level of an adept. Among adepts you will have those that are true believers and will follow the cult of the machine with religious fervor, but those that show the ability to rise above this blind obedience might be “initiated” in the inner mysteries of the cult…the fact that the religious trappings are for the most part a sham for outsiders. The following fluff seems to point to this perhaps being the case: On Mars the process of disintegration began as it did on Earth, but because of the unique conditions on Mars events were to develop entirely differently. Because of lack of maintenance the planet's atmospheric radiation shields soon disintegrated. Solar radiation poured onto the surface, destroying the fragile ecosystem and wiping out sparse vegetation which had taken millennia to cultivate. Plagues caused by high radiation levels slew most of the population. Of those who survived most became deranged by sickness, many turned into mutant zombies or gibbering cannibals. The destruction of the entire planet seemed likely. However, this was not to be, for a new idea began to spread amongst the people, a religion of survival - the Cult Mechanicus dedicated to the Machine God.
The devotees of the Machine God sought out the now scattered technology needed to rebuild temporary radiation shelters. The cult demanded absolute devotion from its followers, for only by selfless dedication and often personal sacrifice could machines be recovered or the planet saved. Under the direction of their Tech-Priest leaders, the cultists set about restoring order to the world. They built shelters to protect themselves from the radiation storms, and oxygen generators and food processing machines to enable them to live behind the enclosed shielding.
There were few shelters even for the Tech-Priests and none for unbelievers. Marauders and mutant raiders tried to force their way inside the hurriedly constructed buildings. Many of the cultists died defending their shelters and some early shelters were destroyed, but the survivors emerged all the stronger and more determined. The people interpreted their survival in the face of tremendous odds as vindication of the Cult Mechanicus. Their resolve and devotion to the cult became unshakeable. It sounds like they were trying to give the people something to believe in; give them hope to continue living. Why not simply "Symposium"? Perhaps I'm just too used to archaeological 'symposiums' which, given the definition of the word, is far more appropriate than you would imagine! I like symposium…but I don’t think it really fits as the name of the legislative body. It does fit well for when the body is called together or meets. Maybe the legislative body can be called something as simple as the Assembly or the Assemblage of Magos. If there is an executive committee or counsel for the Adeptus Mechanicus, perhaps we could call it the Praesidium (permanent executive committee). Do not forget the Holy Altar system... Is this what you are referring to? The High Altar within took the form of a vast database containing the whole knowledge of the Tech-Priests. Even today every new discovery is dedicated to this altar. Every temple on Mars and throughout the Forge Worlds is connected to the High Altar by means of a living Transmat link, a psychic Servitor whose mind co-joins all altars of the Cult Mechanicus into one holy machine entity.So perhaps the question is what are the control mechanisms of servitors that make them cheaper than robots? This is where the RPG comes into play once more. There are a few short pieces of fiction that I have read about the Adeptus Mechanicus that seem to point to the biologic portion of servitors not being just vat grown. They seem to indicate that people are used as the biologic component in servitors. If this is the case, then chemical and psychological conditioning seem a likely route for controlling servitors. As to outlawing robots CELS...I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
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