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Post by Sojourner on Mar 15, 2005 15:56:26 GMT -5
Well, an individual synapse does use binary logic even if neurones don't. So perhaps the same principle can apply. You just have to have some method of getting that neurone to do as it's told.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 15, 2005 18:21:16 GMT -5
Sorry that I have not stopped by to contribute over the past couple of weeks. The Bank that I work for is going through a merger, so my free time and my creative batteries have both been severely depleted. There is a lot to reply to, so let me jump right in.
There is no need to take the stand that Artificial Intelligences designed everything. I also think that your dismissal of the “Golden/Stone/Iron Men debacle", as you termed it, is a bit premature. This fluff I feel provides insights to the original expansion of humanity from the Solar System and eventually to the events that caused the Age of Strife and led to the state of the Galaxy as we have it in the 41st Millenium.
In order to explain my theory, I’ll be using excerpts from The Journal of Keeper Cripias Dated in the year of our Emperor 9931M4, which appears in the index at the end of the Third Edition Rule Book. I know that I have posted the text in this thread previously (on page seven of the thread), but I thin it bears repeating in light of the recent discussion.
And so it was, that in the First Age of Man, the Golden Age, there is the Emperor Unseen and unheralded he prepares the Old Earth for the coming of Mankind, and he watches and he waits. He is joined by the First Men of the Golden Race, fine of limb and strong of mind. Yet still the Emperor is content to wait in shadow, to watch and to learn from Mankind. The Golden Race spreads across the face of the Old earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilization the anarchy of Nature.
In time, the Second Men of the Stone Race appear, and in their wake come many miracles and marvels of technology that strengthen the Stone Men's power, but are also harnessed by those of the Golden Race. Although physically inferior to the Golden Race, and not of philosophical temperment and disposition, the Stone Men have in them the conjurations of great artifice and mechanisms.
The Golden Race appears to be those born on earth, the emergent Homo Sapiens, who emerge out of tribalism and set about “civilizing the world”. IMO, the Second Men of the Stone Race might be a reference to the inhabitants of Mars. The time frame for the emergence of this race would probably have been around the 22nd Century, which is by the timeline around when Mars is first colonized and subsequently terraformed.
The environment of Mars is very different from that of Earth. Such differences might have caused an evolutionary shift in the “martians”, such that it made them distinct from earth born Homo Sapiens. With the sub-races of humanity in the game system (Ogryns, Ratlings and the new list of sub-races in the most recent White Dwarf) it may be a possibility. Even if they did not come to represent a separate branch of Humanity, the martians would be distinctly different physically and culturally from their Terran neighbors.
The martians would be facing an everyday fight for survival or at least would have to always have a part of their mind dedicated to their surroundings…On false step or being too far away from an environmental suit if the habitat decompressed could me the difference in life or death. I once wrote a story about a crew of a space ship who were dirt side on R&R. One of the crew members was half dozing when somebody cracked open a window in the car they were riding in. The whistling of the wind through the crack in the car window brought him immediately awake and he began to flail about looking for a pressure suit, until he realized where he was. Someone who does not spend their life with hard vacuum just on the other side of the hull of their space ship would probably not have reacted to the sound. In the case of a person who lives his live in the fragile shell of a space craft, the sound bears an ominous resemblance to that of a hull breach (decompression) in progress.
The Martian psychology and culture would probably bear many similarities with that of the Settlers on the Frontier of the Old West. Strong self sufficiency and practicality would be necessary for survival. While it is true that the old west didn’t give us many philosophers, the frontier was on the cutting edge of many technological breakthroughs…inventing new machines and methods for taming the west.
In time, the Golden Race looks to the stars to exand their dominion. the Stone Race builds great machines of power that send both Men of Stone and Men of Gold into the Ether. However, once the burgeoning race of Mankind has taken its first steps into the greater cosmos, the Golden Race dwindles in influence through their dependence on the artifices of the Stone Race. Thus the Golden Age comes to an end and the Stone Men prevail.
I’ve already discussed the drives that would have necessitated humanity’s expansion beyond our solar system in other threads, but just to recap…overpopulation, need for resources, escape for religious freedom or political freedom, etc. The Ether I can only surmise is in reference to the Near Warp…which probably means that warp travel utilizing calculated jumps preceded the emergence of navigators (which is, as it should be) It may be that exposure to the warp on these calculated jumps (and maybe some bio-engineering) is what lead to the emergence of the Navis Noblite.
Since these space ships were built by the Stone Men (Martians), this would give them control over travel between star systems…thus as the text indicates, the power of the Golden Race dwindled. This monopoly on the shipping may have allowed the Stone Men to direct or at least influence the diaspora of humanity into the greater galaxy.
Our calculations from the most distant and archaic records, and through constellar comparison, have dated the end of the Golden Age at 20,000 years previous to our present time. For the next 5000 years, the Stone Race lives through the Dark Age of technology. Little can be determined from the Dark Age of technology, for the majority of existing records concerning that period are gathered in the Librarius Omnis of Mars, and none outside the highest ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus can gain access past its most determined of Guardians (Keeper Malrubius tried once, but to no avail).
That most of the remaining records concerning the era known as the Dark Age of Technology are gathered on Mars I think further points to some connection between Mars and the Stone Men. As to the ending of the Golden Age of Mankind…nothing is said. It could be that this represent the time at which the Stone Men became fully ascendant. It could also be when humanity first encountered or came into conflict with alien races such as the Orks or Eldar.
We have surmised that during the Dark Age of Technology, the Men of Stone create the Iron Men to help them in the building of their great Empire. At first, the Iron Men are as servants, willing to do the bidding of their masters with no thought.
However, Iron Men, as all creatures do, evolve and grow until they are the equal of the Stone Race and beside each other, they set about conquering the galaxy. The dark Age of technology is an era of machines and artificial devices, used by the Stone Men, and later the Iron Men, in their endeavors.
Creation of the Iron Men
Why do the Stone Men create the iron men created? I don’t claim to have some secret knowledge hidden in the fluff, but I can make a couple of educated guesses and theories based on the fluff that does exist (as well as a good helping of personal knowledge). Growth and development on alien worlds would probably have proven difficult for terrestrial life…including humans. Many scientists (and science fiction novels) have pointed to a need to bio-engineer terrestrial organisms to fit into these alien environments. This technology would not have existed at the time that a world was first discovered. It would be necessary to bring back samples in order to tailor the species to fit the environment.
This being the case, the future inhabitants could wait a couple of years (at the least) for the samples to arrive by ship and then probably a couple of more to have their genes tailored properly to fit the environment. The alternative would be to go to the planet and try to survive as best as possible while terraforming the planet. In the former case, the colonists might want to begin construction of the colony before the bio-engineering was complete. They could either send workers to build the colony while living in domes or protective habitats (like the latter example for terraforming) or they could send robots or androids to build the colony for them.
In the latter example of terraforming a planet, birth rates among the colonists would probably be low in the first couple of decades. This could be due to the alien environment, differences in gravity or a host of other variables. Robots and androids again might prove useful for augmenting the workforce. Of course the question would be asked, why not just send more colonists? There would be several reasons.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 15, 2005 18:24:11 GMT -5
Reasons for the Creation of Iron Men
Increased Cost of Food and Habitation
More people means more air to breath and more terran food to eat. It would also require the building of additional habitation modules. There is also the cost of transporting such an individual on a ship and the cost of the training required for such an individual to be able to survive on an alien world and fulfill his/her necessary duty in the terraforming process. If all of these costs are calculated and compared against the initial outlay of capital and the upkeep of a robot, the savings on Iron Men could be quite large.
Protection
By the time of the creation of the Iron Men, Humanity would have encountered alien races, who could be hostile. A frontier world might have the man power to defend against simple raids, but a concerted attack by an alien race might require stronger defenses. Iron Men could have been used as defensive units to protect the colonists.
Exploration
The number of star systems that would need to be explored in order to locate worlds which would support human life would be enormous. Such an undertaking may have been left in the hands of automated probes or ships that had been retrofitted to be run by Iron Men. Such units could explore worlds (even those that were hazardous to humans) and report back. They would act as advanced scouts. Possibly if they found a world conducive to human habitation, they would signal back and then begin the process of setting up the beginnings of a settlement for the colonists that would eventually arrive.
These are but a few ways in which I can see robots (Iron Men) originally entering service in the Stone Race’s empire. As to the Stone Men having an empire, It seems to have been based off of their monopoly of technologies such as warp drives. If a world was not willing to ”play ball” with them, the Stone Men could restrict travel to the world or maybe even levy embargos on necessary trade goods. The Age of Strife Might have come about as the colony worlds matured and they were able to begin their own technical programs and reverse engineer Stone Men technology or invent the technology from scratch.
The STC program may have been a way to deter colony worlds from starting their own technical colleges or going about inventing their own technologies. If you have an STC that creates the best machine for the job at hand, why would you need to go through the trial and error process of making a new machine to fulfill the job requirements? To a colony just starting up, the STC would have been a godsend, but as the colony grew into a settled world, it could stifle creativity. There has also been discussion that plans for warp capable vessels might appear in the STC. I find this highly unlikely. Such plans might exist in a central database, but if star ships were the key to the Stone Men’s empire, the definitely would not want such technology to be readily available.
The eventual failure of the Stone Men’s empire may lay in no small part to their technology falling into the hands of others or humans laying their hands on alien technology which would allow them to circumvent or compete with the Stone Men’s monopoly. Maybe the Iron Men gave the technology to other human worlds…I do not see the Iron Men being the boogey men that the history portrays them as. History is after all written by the victor. As their society was falling apart, they Stone Men may have used the Men of Iron as scapegoats to lay all of the ills of society upon of to explain away atrocities committed.
This is not to say that there was not a war between the Iron Men and Stone Men. What I feel has been left out is the possibility that the Iron Men were supported or had humans fighting against the Stone Men alongside them.
The Adeptus Mechanicus grew out of the ashes of Mars, so it is quite possible that they might be the descendants of the Stone Men. If this is true, then it is quite possible that they are again trying to monopolize technology to retain their control on power. This time instead of a monopoly, they invent the lie or idea that all of their technological knowledge (or at least a large quantity of it) has been lost. The quest for knowledge is an attempt to try to bring control of the knowledge back into the hands of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
The Age of Strife did not only create a diaspora of cultures, but also of technology. The general view that the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus has tried to foster is that without their galaxy spanning empire, worlds would fall back into barbarism and decay. To admit that a world could flourish outside of their control proves that their power is not absolute. As with paper money, a galaxy spanning empire only exists as long as there is belief in its value. This is why the Imperium tries to stamp out anyone that speaks out against it and the Adeptus Mechanicus tries to gain a strangle hold on technology.
This strangle hold is of course far from absolute. Large swaths of the galaxy still remain unconquered by the Imperium. There are probably human cultures or alien culture with technology on par or even greater than the Imperium. If the Adeptus Mechanicus can not control the technology or destroy it, they will try to cover up its existence, so that mainstream Imperial society is unaware of it. The quest for knowledge also gives them pretext for seizing technology from newly found worlds or destroying technology as heretical.
The Cult Mechanicus exists, but one must question how deep the faith of the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus truly is. I don’t dispute, that there a members of the Adeptus Mechanicus who are true believers and follow the teachings of the cult with fanatical zeal. This said, I am sure, that there are probably just as many who give only lip service to the articles of the cult mechanicus faith. IMO, the original concept may have started out as nothing more than a sham to allow the members of the cult mechanicus to move among the populace and save the remaining technology that existed. If the tech-priests were viewed as holy, fewer people wouild be willing to mess with them…especially if they could create some “miracles” with a power field here or a holo-transmitter there. Over the centuries, this sham unfortunately became the institution, which by the 41st millennium is a top heavy bureaucratic juggernaut.
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Post by Destecado on Mar 15, 2005 18:24:41 GMT -5
I hope the examples I have given above help to paint a picture that does not cal for the plagiarizing of other great works of Science Fiction. Actually, thinking of Herbert, a question does come to mind. What was the Emperor doing while the Stone Men forged a galactic empire? Could it be that he may have been responsible for the rebellion of the Iron Men against the Stone Men? While the Stone Men’s empire existed, the emperor could not put mankind on the true path (can anyone say Golden Path).
He could however allow the Stone Men to create a galaxy spanning empire and then sow the seeds of its destruction. This would allow him to swoop in and pick up the pieces. Instead of facing a well entrenched enemy with superior logistical and support apparatus, he could pick up the scattered pieces of a shattered empire on piece at a time.
The Iron Men are possessed of no Soul, an anthema to any true Man. The Stone Men, in their final acts of self-preservation, annihilate the Iron Men who have turned from ally to foe. Even those of the Iron Race who retain their former loyalties to their one-time masters are destroyed in the fiery crucible of battle. Still the emperor, in his eternal wisdom, awaits the moment to reveal the true path of Mankind's destiny. Thus the start of the Age of Strife is heralded.
The Age of Strife seems to have occurred after the fall of the Stone Men. Since there seem to be many human cultures left over at this time, it appears that the Iron Men only targeted the Stone Men and their allies. The near destruction of the Stone Men and the eradication of the Iron Men left the techlogy of both in the hands of various human cultures. With such technology in their hands, they may have set about carving out their own empires.
Actually, the idea that the Men of Iron were annihilated is a little hard to believe…unless of course it was a computer virus or some other means used that effected only machines, which also might explain why the even the Iron Men that remained loyal were destroyed. Still without a way to disperse such a weapon across the entire galaxy, it is possible that some of the Iron Men could escape destruction…but that is for another discussion.
Actually, The “rad shields” are not as far fetched as they may seem. I’ve been working on an essay of the potentials for Mars colonization and the development of the culture which would eventually be the precursor of the Adeptus Mechanicus. Unfortunately, work and life have conspired to delay this essay. I’ll try to cover the high points here.
Mars has a very weak magnetic field (recent evidence suggests the field is 400nt strong). Earth’s magnetic field, by comparison, is 3000 nT. A magnetic field shields a planet from fast-moving, electrically charged solar particles that could affect and erode its atmosphere and surface. The field also can protect against some cosmic rays, which are an impediment to life. Recent surveys of the planet’s crust point to a stronger field in the past, which weakened as its core cooled.
Of course since Mars also has a thin atmosphere we do not see the ionization which occurs in a thicker such as earths. As the terraforming process increases the thickness of the atmosphere, ionization would become an issue. It would therefore be necessary to create shielding for technology, which could be harmed by the ionized atmosphere. Perhaps they even found an artificial means to strengthen the magnetic field of Mars. It could be that the equipment necessary for regulating the magnetic field of Mars was damaged or somehow sabotaged by the Iron Men, before they were destroyed by the Stone Men.
Such a loss would be a catastrophe. It would probably destroy any unshielded equipment and would definitely force civilization underground. I really didn’t care for the movie, but The Core does portray if some what dramatically, what could happen if a planet’s magnetic sphere began to destabilize (I promise a more in debth examination of the magnetic field question when I have a chance to finish the essay).
Some good ideas here EB. You have of course hit on one of the major problems inherent with terraforming Mars. Mars has no tectonic plates. Its crust is for the most part seamless. Volcanic activity plays a major role in the replenishment of the atmosphere. It is believed that the atmosphere of Mars was at one time thicker, but as the core cooled, volcanic activity began to decrease. This caused the planet to lose more atmosphere than it was replacing till it reached its current levels.
The use of atmospheric processing planets could serve as “artificial volcanoes”, helping to replenish the atmosphere. Heavy construction would also help to release Carbon Dioxide bound up in the Martian crust. The production of aggregate used in cement and concrete releases massive amounts of carbon dioxide into the environment. One estimate puts the total at 115kg of carbon dioxide released for ever ton of construction material.
Initial colonization of the planet would also be best in low lying areas, below “sea” level, where the atmospheric pressure would be higher. Mars has a large system of canyons, the Valles Marineris, which might prove conducive for such colonization. The Valles Marineris is 2,400 miles (4,000 km) long, (greater than the distance from New York to Los Angeles). The canyons are 420 miles(700 km) wide and 20,000 feet (4.2 miles or 7 km) deep. Unlike the Grand Canyon which was formed by water erosion from the Colorado River, Valles Marineris was created by cracking of the crust when the Tharsis bulge formed.
If a structure could be created to roof over sections of this deep canyon, then the atmospheric processors could perhaps create an environmental bubble, which would allow for reduction in the protection needed to operate in the environment (from full space suits to lighter environmental suits). This canyon colony could be built into the walls of the canyon. Tunnels might extend back from the canyon face for further habitation (again I’ll elaborate more in the full essay).
I hope this proves useful in further discussion of the topics. Questions and comments are always welcome.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 15, 2005 20:13:39 GMT -5
Wow... thanks for the reminder Philip. It is not uncommon that I forget a specific part of the 'fluff' but, still, thanks for posting that reminder.
You've just righty pointed out that 'organic circuits', or at least organic components, were utilised in previous Imperium technologies. As suggested above, you might note, but there we go.
Of course, you have to ask yourself whether it changes anything. It seems to me that it doesn't, really. Furthermore, if you take your approach and say, "Yeah, well, erm, the robots were actually servitors" the situation gets even worse.
Important points to note, however, are that servitors are not necessarily 'human' (with consciouness, decision making capability, etc.). Indeed, do you really think that the 'gun servitor' actually has a choice as to whether to fire or not!?!?!?!
Organic components also do not equate to 'intelligence', nor do they equate to 'machine spirit'. Both still require attribution of animism. Unless you want to apply 'hand wavium' into the mix.
In short, the discusison hasn't really changed. Philip has just reminded people that they utilised organic components in their computers. That does not in the slightest measure make them servitors and, indeed, if such an assertion was made it makes the situation even more problematic.
Sorry, all that I can get to at the moment.
Kage
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 15, 2005 20:32:04 GMT -5
I have only this to reply to Destecado since I have little time nor, at present, motivation for anything else despite a fascinating approach to the "Golden Men etc." debacle.
AI produces everything... Please note that I'm resistant to this fact, not supporting it. I have no problem with it being utilised to an extent, not the extreme to which it was take.
On 'debacle'... It is so called for the numerous variations that I've seen on it. Please do not mistake the use of that term for the fact that I am not aware of the possibilities! I've seen so many of them over the years and the simplest is always the best. If the Portent database had still existed I'd just point you to the thread where I mentioned what they were... Again, similar to yours, if not the same.
Golden/Stone/Iron Men... I do not use the exact descriptions that you do, but no one does. No one. Similar, but there we go.
Rad Shields... Yes, I know about the lower magnetic field and the comensurate higher radiation levels. Obviously based on previous comments. Once again I point out that the automatic assumption of a continued technological intervention - the 'power field' argument, for example - is perhaps not the best means. But we get back to the "Oh, erm the technology fails approach" which doesn't really change anything even if it is disappointing in terms of a nice bit of 'fluff'...
Thickening of atmosphere... Ah yes, the 'ole atmospheric processor approach.
In short... whatever. Horrible American term, but horribly appropriate. The 'fluff' is reasonable even if I do feel that it is more inorganic than organic in approach to terraforming as it were. Fairy snuff. Still doesn't change that much when it comes down to it but there we go (i.e. unless you go with the idea that humans had no inventiveness during the G/DAoT ala Philip)...
Ah well.
kage
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Post by Zholud on Mar 16, 2005 6:23:00 GMT -5
The Golden Race appears to be those born on earth, the emergent Homo Sapiens, who emerge out of tribalism and set about “civilizing the world”. IMO, the Second Men of the Stone Race might be a reference to the inhabitants of Mars. The time frame for the emergence of this race would probably have been around the 22nd Century, which is by the timeline around when Mars is first colonized and subsequently terraformed. The environment of Mars is very different from that of Earth. Such differences might have caused an evolutionary shift in the “martians”, such that it made them distinct from earth born Homo Sapiens. My guess that you miss the point. The Golden Race are just Homo Sapiens, not different from today’s population of the Earth. The golden is just due to scientific breakthrough. Like golden Age or Belle Epoque – those are just names. If 40k men are not vastly different from those today. I refer to ‘ordinary’ human, but sub-races. As for Stone Men, from the text it was clear to me that they are silicone-chip computers. They in no way a new race, especially taking into account that martians seems to be quite human as well. And robots were created as agents of these computers, which were mostly stationary. To debate why iron men are created is unnecessary – they do exist now, why they will cease to exist to re-appear…
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Post by Philip on Mar 16, 2005 8:21:27 GMT -5
Golden/ Stone/ Iron Well as I see it, the early ‘golden men’ could be the leaders and families of early humans that possessed the first imprints of Psyker powers. The fluff alludes to this as back then there where the (most powerful – not all) shamans that created the Emperor and so it would seem that people back then (way back) were very aware and quite powerful. The whole of the human race back then could have been much more aware and in touch with their surroundings. This could tie into the idea that tribal culture in many parts of the world as socially cohesive and respect nature (not all but many). It is these culture that give rise to our society.
The stone men as those who come later and that have no faith (remember in 40K gods do exist), they are ‘non-believers’ but are very practical, hard-working and materialistic. Our current world would be the time of the stone men (or a mixture of booth). It is obvious that modern living ‘softens’ people, a trend that will only continue, and so in time stone men will be physically inferior to the ‘warriors of old’ (being big and strong is of little use in a gun-fight, in fact it is a hindrance to be large, and with modern ‘push-button’ weapons who really needs to be in shape)
Present day Earth would be a mixture of the golden men and the stone men, I don’t think it is a racial (population) divide, I would say that it is ‘how person thinks’, what they find important and what they strive for.
So as a rough guess, a golden man (or woman) is socially skilled, strong, a leader by example, intelligent, wise and caring whereas a stone man (or woman) would be materialistic, socially isolated (lots of superficial friends) and a tendency for psychological problems (sociopath) but very, very clever.
The only real difference in 40K compared to these real world examples would be that the Golden men and women have sixth-sense or other early manifestations of Psyker powers, and maybe even real full blown Psyker powers.
Iron men. Well they’re men, which is a problem, sure they could be machines but it says ‘men’ which at the very least implies a humanoid shape.
It could be that the Iron-Men are the first servitors (robots) who's cortex where patterned after real human minds - in current 40K the patterning seems it top out with a ‘dog’ for the old style ‘servitor’ robots, even titans use animals like the bear or wolf as a base rather than humans. . I could be the iron-men are an optimum blend of machine and human designed to work for the stone men who had become physical weak (and probably detested exercise in any form).
The Iron-Men would be very strong, they may be part machine like a servitor or just bio-engineered super-tough but dumb slave. It really doesn’t matter, only the position they held in society as ‘slave’, and as history has always show you can’t enslave a people for ever, and they always have a tendency to rise up in open revolt (a story as old as the hills).
Tangent I think this is the angle GW are going for with the Iron-Men, but this is where my ideas go off on slight tangent. I would say the Iron-men are linked up to the STC (because the stone-men had more important things to do) and so when (in my fluff defining) the Artilects of the STC call for a lock down because of the rampant Psyker problem, and the Stone-Men OK that lock down, it is the Iron-Men who are going to enforce it (because the stone-men sure as hell aren’t).
You could say the Iron-Men rebelled, or you could say they where following orders I suppose it depends on which side a person is on at the time.
Suffice to say, the stone men had forgotten all about Psyker powers, spirituality and faith only to have a very rude awakening by the manifestation of super powerful Psykers.
The stone men still have the genes of the golden men in them, just that their minds are closed – the warp (leaks at jump points) changes that by boosting the sixth-sense enabling the link-up to the warp.
It must have been terrifying for them, as I’m sure a the stone men and women who started to hear voices in their head and could hear the paranoid babble of their superficial ‘friends’ for real must have thought they had gone quite mad, only to suddenly be able to blast out fire balls and attack with their mind alone and go really nuts and power crazed (probably finding out exactly how superficial stone wo/men friendships are would give an intense feeling of betrayal).
The emergence of the Alphas would be heralded by a blood bath both stone and iron men alike. I think the stone-men bottled it almost instantly, and the Alphas quickly gained the upper hand and moved in. It could be that the Alpha forced the stone men to ‘turn off’ the Iron-Men or just forced them to what as the two side slugged it out.
Thereafter, as a penance or though just plain spitefulness the Alphas force the stone-men to work for a living!
The Alphas would see what had happened to mankind and how far they had really fallen, and seeing as they where all powerful and the stone-men where now slaves, perhaps it is the Alphas that started to systematically destroy the STC and Artilects to force the stone-man to comply. The Alpha Psykers would then rule over the stone-men in a manner similar to the ancient Egyptians, and take great delight in making their life a complete misery (plus a few possessions couldn’t go amiss).
Tying up I think this tangent is the missing link, and explains in part the utter destruction of human civilization and the removal of the STC from all human worlds, and where it is very rare to find an intact or piece of STC (if it was destroyed enough to stop DAoT scientists from using it, the remains would have to be pretty messed up).
I also think that the 'stone-men' make up the vast majority of the human civilization in current 40K, and I don’t think they would ever blame themselves for what happened (in their myths and legends). They would blame the Psykers for destroying everything (which it true) they would think that the Iron-Men failed to protect them (which is also true) and the Iron-Men tried to imprison them (which is true) and they had to wipe out the Iron-men (which is true).
It all fits, just that the stone men, in their own mind aren’t to blame for any of it.
Philip
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 16, 2005 9:55:27 GMT -5
Iron Men - Borg? Servitors whose autonomy isn't erased but merely repressed?
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Post by Philip on Mar 16, 2005 11:10:01 GMT -5
Well, an individual synapse does use binary logic even if neurones don't. So perhaps the same principle can apply. You just have to have some method of getting that neurone to do as it's told. Even the synapse do not use binary logic (hence all the stuff about analogue/ DSP etc). The input signal (or collection of signals combined) has to reach a ‘threshold’ before it will fire, and even the firing is a bit uneven. The threshold is variable depending on past/ type firings. Tempting image but the Iron-Men do not have a collective, they are not the thinkers in the DAoT society, they are menial workers and treated no better than beasts of burden. They may have up links to the Artilects/ STC but it is control not free thought. Servitors whose autonomy isn't erased but merely repressed? In the official fluff most likely hence the development of will over time (as all slaves develop the will to fight back over time) however in my version most likely not as the DAoT Stone-Men know what they are doing and have probably erased all independence (more like a dog than a wolf). But it could hold true for both, in my version the Iron-Men may have thought they were doing the right thing (and were probably just as scard by the emergent Psykers). On the issue of erased/ repressed autonomy it can go either way. In the Imperium they probably make triple sure, and this would account for the ‘lobotomised’ character many servitors seem to exhibit in 40K novels.
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Post by Sojourner on Mar 16, 2005 12:18:25 GMT -5
What I meant was 'firing' or 'not firing'.
And I wasn't really intending to suggest the collective idea, merely that perhaps Iron Men are mechanically similar to the Borg, though fitted by others rather than being 'infected'.
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Post by Philip on Mar 16, 2005 17:31:12 GMT -5
And I wasn't really intending to suggest the collective idea, merely that perhaps Iron Men are mechanically similar to the Borg, though fitted by others rather than being 'infected'. Seems about right, though I think they would be a little more streamlined, perhaps just the mind and internal organs housed within a sleek machine shell but the typical Borg/ servitor look would work too. I’m also thinking that the Iron-Men had to be mind wiped for legal reasons, ie. kept non sentient so that they are technical ‘brain dead’ or a non-person. Also toying with the idea that those in this society who were failing to perform would get (bio) upgrades and criminals who are sentenced to death may get mind-wiped and turned into an ‘Iron-Man’ (and then cloned, wiped and processed into Iron-Men)
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 16, 2005 19:07:17 GMT -5
Yellow tends to mean "this is the way it goes". When associated with "Thus Sayeth the Law" there is no argument. There are some things that I'm going to have to put my foot down about and they are becoming increasingly frequent.
On Golden Men Why do they need to be different? Why not merely a product of the same forces that work so much throughout the entire 'fluff', i.e. the 'entropic' universe approach? True, Golden Men could refer to the Shaman, but this beggers belief: Cripias would not know about them, nor would anyone else for that matter (but the Emperor).
Therefore, Golden Men are not psykers. Period. Thus sayeth the law. It is not an attitude, but a historical/mythological perspective.
Counter: None.
Stone Men Again, this could be a reference to mythology in general. There is no need to create new races. Stone Men merely become 'everyone else'.
Stone Men need be nothing more than the greater bulk of humanity.
Counter: Zholud's comment about 'silicon-chips'.
Iron Men The name does not necessarily imply a specific form. They appear to be 'intelligent robots'. Whether there is an 'over-mind' (ala Omnius, or that central computer from I Robot is nother matter).
Sevitors are not robots with organic circuits. The 'intelligence' of a robot has nothing to do with an implanted brain, but the complexity of the programming.
Tangent Not relevant here.
In reference to the topic at hand it creates more problems. Also, incredibly (too) reminiscent of the "Novas" from Trinity. But, again...
Alternative universe discussion is not relevant here.
Kage
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Post by Philip on Mar 16, 2005 19:52:05 GMT -5
On Golden MenWhy do they need to be different? Why not merely a product of the same forces that work so much throughout the entire 'fluff', i.e. the 'entropic' universe approach? True, Golden Men could refer to the Shaman, but this beggers belief: Cripias would not know about them, nor would anyone else for that matter (but the Emperor). I never said Cripias would have to anything about the Shamans, I was using them as a fluff example that could point to the fact that the golden men may have been psykers. So in Anargo the golden men could be ‘religious’ and the stone men ‘scientific’ - denoting their differing outlooks, golden/ stone being being ideological standpoints? Whether there is an 'over-mind' (ala Omnius, or that central computer from I Robot is nother matter). If the over-mind is in reference to the Artilects (STC or Mars) then they are not like either ‘Omnius’ or ‘VIKI’ in function. The Artilects can not make decisions for humans, humans are always in control and have to OK the Artilects actions. If you are looking for something comparable to my Artilects, you won’t find it. In this instance the technology isn’t the enemy, its smart and clever and doesn’t turn out evil – very out of step with current sci-fi.
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Post by Kage2020 on Mar 16, 2005 22:48:34 GMT -5
Ideological Difference I have ever been unfond of the religious argument, more so given the descriptions posted above by Destecado.
Uniqueness of Ideas Strange, yet the concept doesn't strike me as unique at all. Enough. That is for another thread and henceforth encourage and may engage in the editing/deletion of such asides. There is a thread for it elsewhere for those that wish to discuss that alternative universe of yours.
Kage
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