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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 17:28:29 GMT -5
Hmm...didnt they leave the Imperium during the Great Crusade?
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 18:01:45 GMT -5
yes, they left during the Great Crusade. i don't know where Phil got this 'high level records stuff,' it's not like Russ' birthday is eyes only material.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 19:35:22 GMT -5
In order to obtain information outside of a person’s home world they have to go through the Imperium, much of the ‘common fluff’ is unknown to the average Imperial civilian.
So to have a bit of minor info of say Russ birthday while a citizen of Fenris is OK, but why would a person on another world know or need to know, seeing as marines are virtually myth?
I’m thinking that in order to collect all these many small bits of info, a person would have to have fingers in many pies and higher access to allow him/ her to look at the information about many worlds in the first place.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 22:31:32 GMT -5
why? you don't need high level access to government files to find old books. why the hell would you need fingers in pies to go searching for ancient, forgotten texts? are there no libraries in the Age of the Imperium? do the Imperials shred all hard copy immediately after its printed? civilizations that have been dead on earth for four thousand years seem more accessible than your idea of information in the Imperium.
if this really bothers you, say they got the information from one of the worlds they're allied with. i don't have time to role play every discovery and chart out every research project undertaken. to assume the Nomin could get their hands on information from the RT rule book is, if at all, a tiny fluff sin in the name of a more interesting plot line.
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Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 6:42:33 GMT -5
I like the Nomin, or rather a like their view of their universe. I think they would make a good subversive group and their brand of heresy is particularly appealing and likely to snare intelligent practical individuals. why? you don't need high level access to government files to find old books. why the hell would you need fingers in pies to go searching for ancient, forgotten texts? are there no libraries in the Age of the Imperium? do the Imperials shred all hard copy immediately after its printed? civilizations that have been dead on earth for four thousand years seem more accessible than your idea of information in the Imperium. As for information, it is restricted to what people need to know, so on any another world they would be clueless of the Space Wolves traditions. Yes they have normal Libraries but nearly all the information would be in relation to the world it is located, and only a tiny heavily censored amount of the actual Imperium. All the serious stuff is in Imperial Libraries and they’re like banks. The more import the records the closer they are to terra and the more they are guarded. Even insignificant information relating to a particular world while part of the myths and ‘common’ knowledge on that world would be unknown elsewhere unless a person actually meet someone from that world (in the IG for example) or they had clearance to go digging in the Imperial Libraries (Inquisitor). if this really bothers you, say they got the information from one of the worlds they're allied with. i don't have time to role play every discovery and chart out every research project undertaken. to assume the Nomin could get their hands on information from the RT rule book is, if at all, a tiny fluff sin in the name of a more interesting plot line. It a huge fluff sin! But hey, if you like it ;D I think it wouldn't take much to make it a non-fluff sin; you just have to come up with a credible founder of the Nomin and a reason for continued information. As an initial suggestion you my like to consider the idea that the original leader and founder was a Warlord (current leader could be anyone), and that the current Nomin group have access the Imperial records through a Rogue Inquisitor. As a last point, this group has all the haul marks of a Tzeentch cult and is another area you may wish to consider (and another source of secret information far more powerful than a rogue Inquisitor). If the Nomin have a book equivalent of the ‘RT rule book’, Tzeentch gave it too them.
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Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 9:46:56 GMT -5
Ok... I have a few very important comments, and some that are only so important.
I'll start with the immediate problem of introducing the Nomin to the ASP. So far, the ASP has worked by taking all four editions and the contradictions therein and forging a new version of the Warhammer 40,000. The point of this, has been to make a universe that is as consistent as possible with the Warhammer 40,000 fluff and its traditions, while aiming to make sense at the same time. Basically, we're after the 'truth', and we don't leave important questions "open to interpretation". We tackle them head-on. When people wonder how Orks pull off all their tricks or how warp travel works, we try to give them an answer. This is critical if our Project's version of the universe is to be consistent.
Now that I've brought you up to speed... the problem with the Nomin, is that if they are to be accepted in the ASP, then their story must be false. Leman Russ was not born after the Horus Heresy. The Emperor did not die of old age. He had already lived for something like 36 millennia, and would have lived even longer if Horus didn't betray him.
If you accept that the Nomin are in fact mistaken, then I think they will make a gread addition to the ASP. If you want their story to be true, then I don't see how they can be included.
Over to less important points... why won't the Nomin use flamers or explosive rounds? If they're afraid of collateral damage, they should stay away from guns all together. I just don't find this detail particularly credible, eventhough it is 'fluffy'.
As for the Nomin finding a way to the Tryphonian People's Front.... Why, certainly. Of course, this might eventually push the world into total anarchy, as it is torn between those who are loyal to the Priesthood, those who are connected to the Nomin, and those who are against the Priesthood, but aren't too happy about the Nomin either. Of course, this all just adds to the flavour ;D
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Post by Pudding on Nov 3, 2004 11:38:21 GMT -5
if what CELS says re: fluff structure in Anargo is correct, then i have seriously misunderstood the purpose of the project, and so i probably don't belong here. when Kage refered me here i thought it was an attempt to allow all four editions of fluff to work together, rather than create one vision. one of the reasons i can't stand new fluff is that it is overriding and rewriting fluff, and i was drawn here because i thought it would be co-existence rather then having everyone agree on one thing, which is kind of exclusive. i am an RT elitist, i admit it, and i think the 'truth' is that the Emperor is just a man, Leman Russ was born in M32 etc. clearly that is not the consensus here, which means that if a 'truth' has to win out one of us has to change our mind.
which isn't really going to happen. which brings me to:
i don't see information in the Imperium the way you do, i guess. thirty eight thousand years in the future, what will the internet be like? twenty years ago we really didn't have any idea that this kind of thing (online discussion boards) was even possible. can you imagine how fluid information will be with further innovations, even within our own life time?
you've probably heard that anecdote if you put something on the internet it can never be completely deleted. after millenia of enforced ignorance, i don't think even the Inquisition fully knows the value of information, etc, and so these kinds of records would get overlooked and ignored. which is the point: you have a fundamentally different idea on how information would exist in 40k, and apparently in order to work within Anargo we have to agree on how information works and discuss endless details that are related only in the most distant tangential fashion to the actual fun part of creating fluff, which i'm not interested in doing.
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Post by CELS on Nov 3, 2004 12:00:16 GMT -5
You are correct in that we try to let the four editions work together. For example, we use a lot of 'facts' and ideas from the RT-era, but we also incorporate a lot from 2nd, 3rd and 4th Edition. But, unless I have totally misunderstood everything in the many months I've spent on the project, we do not leave important questions open to interpretation. In the ASP, there is not supposed to be room for people to believe that the Machine God is in fact the Dragon, or that Ork teleporters work only because the orks wish them to.
While you lament that GW constantly overrides the old fluff, we lament that they often choose to be extremely vague. I doubt there is a phrase in all the fluff that is used more than "Little is known about..." or "No one knows why/how/when..."
Still... I would be really disappointed if you chose to abandon the Nomin, or even the entire project. Your concept would fit very well, even if we do assume that the Nomin are incorrect and that Leman Russ was 'born' before the Heresy.
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Post by malika on Nov 3, 2004 13:16:12 GMT -5
Like CELS said, it would be dissapointing to see you leave because we dont fully agree with a concept. I mean if that were so I would have left ages ago, but it's interesting to incoorporate other people's ideas on something in a concept. I for example made an attempt to work with the holy "Guide" to create a planet, while CELS has accepted the fact that people wanted to incoorporate the Legio Cybernetica in the Adeptus Mechanicus. Hmm...Im kinda getting off topic here huh? Well...I was just trying to give advice or something
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Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 13:52:16 GMT -5
i don't see information in the Imperium the way you do, i guess. thirty eight thousand years in the future, what will the internet be like? twenty years ago we really didn't have any idea that this kind of thing (online discussion boards) was even possible. can you imagine how fluid information will be with further innovations, even within our own life time? There is no internet in 40K (least not as we know it in our modern world), never has been even during the Rogue Trader era. Very few Imperial citizens have PCs and I’d imagine that Imperium has a extreme phobic reaction to ‘internet’ like technologies as they are inherently insecure. Now, during the Golden Age of Technology things were very different, and information was easy to get and to pass on, everyone had advanced computers (cyber brain ad-ons?), access to AI systems, super advanced Robots etc. All that has now gone, 40K is very different.
Moving on to the project and the overall concept: I know how you feel in some regards, I seem to have a habit of getting my threads locked or deleted, but it’s still fun to discuss stuff around here. I like the Nomin, but they don’t fit even 1E RT rulebook fluff, and the modifications required to make them compliant with 40K fluff is very minor.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 3, 2004 22:58:47 GMT -5
There is no internet in 40K (least not as we know it in our modern world), never has been even during the Rogue Trader era. Very few Imperial citizens have PCs and I’d imagine that Imperium has a extreme phobic reaction to ‘internet’ like technologies as they are inherently insecure. where are you getting this from? our world would shut down without the internet, how can you administer planets with tens of billions of people without it? your approach is incredibly exclusive, and i don't see how you can incorporate all the fluff is you're willing to pass canon and render certain fluff false. there has to be room for disagreement, for people who with most, but not all of someone's else's ideas. speaking only for myself, the prospect of contributing ideas which i think are true under the understanding that they have to be false to particpate is not attractive. i'm not going to abandon the Nomin, but if that's the final word on fluff and flexibility, i just won't be able to continue with them here.
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Post by Philip on Nov 3, 2004 23:50:36 GMT -5
where are you getting this from? our world would shut down without the internet, how can you administer planets with tens of billions of people without it? Our world wouldn’t shut down without the internet, or rather if the internet had never been invented we would still have a similar number of people and everything would be ticking along as usual. The Imperium is different to our world, different values. The Imperium do have networks but not like our (fantastic!) internet, think of it more as thousands of local area networks arranged in a hierarchy heavily monitored - all websites are ‘official’ and forums don’t exist (higher ranking individuals use holo-displays).
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Post by Pudding on Nov 4, 2004 2:13:48 GMT -5
but where are you getting this from? unless GW has said this, it's just your opinion, not 'fact.'
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Post by Philip on Nov 4, 2004 9:05:49 GMT -5
Have GW ever made a reference to an ‘internet’ in regard to 40K?
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Post by Dazo on Nov 4, 2004 9:28:21 GMT -5
No they have not, and the free exchange of information and ideas in 40k does not happen unless you want to bring the inquisition down on your head. Or unless you happen to be the inquisition.
Flexibility is a door that swings both ways, its a good idea you have and hopefully you will find a compromise that will allow it to become part of the ASP but that is entirely your decision
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