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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 8:32:45 GMT -5
for those who haven't read the thread at Portent, click on the link in my sig, rather than me posting it all here (save Kage a wee bit of bandwidth). a tiny summation:
the Nomin are a faction of humans that ran off and hid during the rise of the Imperium, which came at the tail end of the Age of Strife while the Emperor was kicking ass and taking names. their homeworld was rediscovered by the Imperium and promptly taken over, which involved killing all their heretical scientists, supressing open discussion and so on. a bunch of Nomin made a break for it and have been formenting dissent and trying to free their home along with what ever planets will join them.
the Nomin's partiular brand of heresy is that the Emperor is not a god and the Imperium has completely rewritten history into this psedo religions mess to turn a secular battle for who would 'interpret' the Emperor's will into the Horus Heresy and ever other 'threat' to the Imperium they use to justify the various attrocities committed by Imperial agents.
i thought about making my own planet, and even downloaded H&E for that purpose (which is an awesome program, if large for my poor dial up connection), which would have rebelled from the Imperium and would be recieving support from the Nomin and the other planets that had rebelled and joined into an alliance. the, i changed my mind, and figured it would be way more fun to have the Nomin's presence in the sector not as an established faction but as a subversive fifth column, formenting rebellion and heresy wherever they go.
of course, this requires that the various people with planets allow the Nomin to infiltrate and cause havoc. in my own background, drawn up to explain my Gothic Chaos fleet that isn't Chaos, there are 12 worlds in the backwaters of the Ultima Segmentum that have joined together to declare independance, and the Nomin themselves have significant space based assets from when they fled their homeworld. the Nomin generally operate by first making friendly with liberal elements, like merchants, smugglers, contraband pushers, and those who lose money with the Imperium in charge. after that, they'll begin with the rabble rousing, pamphletting, and generally screwing with the natural order of things.
etc. i think that gives a general idea of what's going on in my head. i was inspired to post here after reading about CELS's Tryphonian People's Front, a group the Nomin would love to support and build ties with. so, i hope this post was not in vain and there will be at least a few takers for revolution and heresy in the Anargo sector.
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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 10:23:59 GMT -5
I kinda like the idea of a human rebellion which isnt Chaos or Xenos related. However from your original thread on Portent they seem to know a whole lot, IIRC most people in the Imperium dont know stuff like the Horus Heresy or about the Adeptus Custodes, how do they get all this information?
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 10:54:29 GMT -5
re: the average Imperial not knowing this stuff, i'm not sure, or rather, my memory is hazy. clearly Imperials know enough to be scared of psykers and the Space Marines, but they are kept very ignorant about the dangers of the warp. my personal opinion is that your average Imperial knows about the Horus Heresy, but they know it as some absurd morality tale told to them by the Ecclesiarchy. for instance, Horus is evil incarnate in the way that the devil would be for Christians (no offense intended to any religious members of this board) and his evil seduced this or that chapter, which justifies all the controls the Imperium has on this or that.
so that's what i think your average Imperial thinks. the Nomin left the Imperium as the Emperor was taking power, which would be the First Crusade if you take the Imperium's record of it for face value. anything information after that is gained by, as i said on Portent, good research: for instance, there are tons of books of the Bible which have been ruled Heresies. the Gnostic Heresy, for instance, was an early form of Christianity, and its records survive to this day, but no one really knows about it. my theory is that all this information, the real records of Leman Russ (as they appear in RT), which show he lived after the Horus Heresy, the thing about the Heresy really being a secular power struggle, etc, these records are out there like the Gnostic gospels are out there, but they're forgotten and so effectively dead.
and to head this off, i'm not forwarding this as the 'truth,' just one more interpretation of history. Kage describes Anargo as a way to reconcile fluff from all four editions, and in order to do that you have to confront Rogue Trader, which pre-dates the idea of the Horus Heresy; back in those days, Space Marines could fly into the Eye of Terror sometimes and restore Imperial law, Orks and Humans lived side by side on some worlds, and 'chaos' didn't really exist. so this is just my side of how to reconcile the changes; yes, there was a huge civil war, and in the end, the 'losers' had aligned with warp entities in order to win the war. did the Emperor get put in the Golden Throne after fighting Horus, the way the Ecclesiarchs tell it, or did he get put there because of age, as RT era fluff says? was the Horus Heresy instigated by chaos-tainted Horus, or was it a war between factions of the government who disagreed on 'the Emperor's Will'?
i think there's tons of room for new ideas and different points of view, and i think this is a cool point of view that hasn't been really fleshed before, so that's what i want to do. that kind of went on longer than i wanted, but i don't want to give the impression i'm trying to invalidate other people's fluff, since my desire to do this is in response to old fluff that i really like getting erased by GW.
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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 11:09:05 GMT -5
Ok...the thing is that most people in the Imperium dont know about the Horus Heresy, they probably dont even know Chaos, if they do know about those things the Inquisition will hunt them down and take care of them They just know that Psychers are bad, because of what the Imperial government indoctrinates them with, they only know what the High Lords want them to know, nothing more, and preferable less. Heresy, Disobedience and Treason are the ultimate evils in the Imperium...or at least if we have to believe the Imperial Government. I do like the idea that these Nomin have their own interpretation of Imperial history, perhaps they are right, perhaps they are misguided...but it does give it an interesing twist. Let them see things differently, but dont let them know too much, they are after all only a few humans in this vast Imperium, trying to hide from its large armies who would easily terminate such a treat. Maybe you should check this planet Carrera (that was the name IIRC) in the World Building section...lots of rogues, pirates and other scum live there, maybe these guys would be hiding there. But ok, are they all over the Imperium? If so...would they have relationships with the Tau? The Tau might support these humans, as long as they join the Greater Good of course.
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Post by Dazo on Nov 2, 2004 11:12:56 GMT -5
I do, i'm actually gnostic in my beliefs ;D The apocrypha, and the nag hammad library yes, not trying to start religious debate mearly demostrating I know what you are getting at. Yep thats how I remember it, though to be fair I don't recall GW saying that is not still the case, they simply have chosen not to mention that sort of thing in the more recent publications. That wouldn't include squats would it Well there's nothing stopping you, go for it, you might find many a sympathetic ear in Anargo, or at least curious bystanders Yes aetheist isnt it And what the hell does IIRC mean
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 11:44:13 GMT -5
Ok...the thing is that most people in the Imperium dont know about the Horus Heresy, they probably dont even know Chaos, if they do know about those things the Inquisition will hunt them down and take care of them i agree that Imperials don't know about Chaos, but unless there's fluff i've missed that says your average citizen doesn't know about the HH, i think they would, because in whenever you have a god, that god always has an enemy, and for the Emperor, that enemy is Horus. if there is fluff that says Imperials don't know about the HH (not that they would know the truth, just that someone has told them some version of the HH) please englighten me, but if not, the HH is too choice for the Preachers to pass up. and the version they'd tell would be sanitized of course ... but then who's to say the version GW has put out hasn't been sanitized as well... i'm with you; one of the reasons i haven't typed up another missive is because i've run out of things to write about, or at least i've been too busy to devote myself to thinking of another one. i hadn't intended to give them up to date information, or info about how the Inquisition works, or the Assassins etc etc. the Nomin homeworld is on the very northern edge of the Ultima Segmentum, outside the range of the Astronomican (as per the map thread buried somewhere here that i can't find right now), and is now under the control of a maniacal zealot governor personally installed by the Inquisition; their alliance of 12 planets is on the eastern edge of the Astronomican. the Nomin have travelled extensively in the Ultima Segmentum, and to the eastern edge of the galaxy, but have not dared get close to Segmentum Solar. so to answer your question: the Nomin are not everywhere, and are currently confined to the Ultima Segmentum. the Nomin do have relations with the Tau, and they consider each other allies, but the two factions are so far apart they aren't really able to do much about it. this aspect will be further developed as i flesh out some Nomin tech aspects. the Nomin will not submit to Tau rule, though, because the Nomin are deontologists, while the Tau are utilitarians. with GW, lack of mention is a death sentence: Squats, Harlequins, Chaos Dwarves, Exodites, Genestealer Cults, etc. the Eye of Terror is EXTREMELY underdeveloped, and right now i'd consider its fate up in the air. is RT fluff still in effect, viz does the Imperium regularly attempt to reassert control over planets caught in the outer edge of the Eye, or is it all chaos and Chaos etc. i personally would love to see the former, with these worlds attracting all manner of renegades, who flock to the Eye of Terror to avoid the tyranny of the Imperium. ages ago, back during 2nd Ed, i remember reading a DIY list online that was basically a bunch of rebels who were not aligned with anyone; not Chaos, not the Imperials, not any aliens (this was before the Tau) etc. those are the spiritual ancestors of the Nomin.
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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 13:23:49 GMT -5
Well it might be interesting to see the Tau/Nomin relation a bit stronger, perhaps the Tau supply the Nomin with weapons and military training, sending Nomin agents to planets to start terrorist cells and educate the people about the Greater Good.
However the Nomin do not have to believe in this Xenos concept and just accept the weapons and training without preaching about the Tau's ideology, hence causing perhaps minor conflicts with some of the Tau, while the other dont mind since these Nomin destabilze the Imperium.
About Horus being the enemy...again they Imperium needs an enemy, but they have Xenos, traitors, psychers, disobedient ones for that...they would say that the enemy is among them, not some distant legendary figure.
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 13:51:09 GMT -5
well, the Nomin won't join the Tau empire, but they will ally with them, so they have a strong relationship. however, there would be plenty of sparks to fly over various tactics (the Nomin won't use flamers, explosive rounds, anything that might cause collateral damage) and how best to administer change in the 'liberated' planets.
re: Horus, most Christians don't really beleive in the literal devil any more, it's a story to represent temptation and human weakness. equally, Horus is the embodiement of all that opposes the glory of the Emperor; he betrays the Emperor, takes up arms against other humans, he turns to forbidden knowledge for power, etc etc. do they know all the specifics? no, but they know who Horus is, in the sense that Horis us the Great Betrayer.
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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 14:00:26 GMT -5
I think that the knowlegde about Horus is a very discussable topic, some might agree with you that people might know who he was while other disagree. After the Horus Heresy all records on the Traitor Legions were deleted as if they never existed...I mean the high ranked people might know it, but average Joe?
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 14:24:41 GMT -5
again, who says the average Imperial has to know about the specifics? you don't have spell out the details to tell people about the Arch Heretic Horus, was was His Holy Righteousness's right hand before turning away from the light and embracing all that is foul and evil in the universe etc. i've started a thread on Portent here. we'll see what turns up.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 14:28:05 GMT -5
Mind you, even if the average Imperial citizen didn’t know about Horus wouldn’t the the Nomin tell them?
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Post by malika on Nov 2, 2004 14:42:11 GMT -5
But how would the Nomin know?
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 14:53:11 GMT -5
It would only take one (leader) to know about Horus and then pass it on, so the question is: who told?
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Post by Pudding on Nov 2, 2004 15:19:42 GMT -5
But how would the Nomin know? they don't, or rather, they don't know more specifically about the Heresy than Imperial records would indicate. what they do hare seemingly harmless bits of information, like Leman Russ's date of birth, which cast doubt on the Heresy itself. the Nomin knew about the Emperor back when he was fighting other human factions for control, and so they take these little pieces and put together a big picture. they know the Emperor is a man, they know Leman Russ and thus the Space Wolves did not exist until a thousand years after the Imperium claims the Horus Heresy happened (M32 vs M31, which is RT vs 3rd Ed), they see how the Imperial bureaucracy works on these planets, and they piece together a theory. the Emperor didn't fight a devil, he got old, that's what happens to people. if the Space Marines didn't exist when the Imperium says they did, clealry the Heresy could not have taken place in M31. and who the hell, coming from a rational society, would take the story of Horus at face value? so of course they interpret it as a myth based on the same kind of powergrab motivated war that motivated them to leave. so that's my thinking.
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Post by Philip on Nov 2, 2004 17:21:33 GMT -5
So the Nomin would have had access to high level Imperial records (at least before they left), so they would have to be lead by quite high ranking individual with loyal followers?
I’m thinking high ranking in order to pull all that information together.
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