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Post by CELS on Apr 30, 2004 6:40:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean by the colonists being stupid to colonizae the world. The changes that have begun to occur in the star I'm thinking would be a recent occurance. Yes, but wouldn't the colonists have the technology to see that this star was a ticking time bomb? Prior to this it was an important agri world. It provided abundnat fish and other sea life for transport off world. The seas are also important for algea farms or sea kelp farms that can be rendered down into a variety of food stuffs. Think about how many different products are made from soy beans these days. Heheh, poor Imperials. Not a lot of agri-worlds making french fries and chicken wings, are there? The changes in the sun have begun to threaten the viability of the crops. The suns expansion would also probably cause a mass exodus from the planet. There of course would be those that were left behind as well as those that come to planet to scavange anything that might be left. If you don't mind, I'd like to play more with the Fallout universe at this point, and introducing mutated two-headed grox, like the two-headed cows that appear in Fallout ;D If it's ok with you. This solar activity does not mean that the sun is going to explode or go out any time soon. The best way to think about is if you have a fire going in the fire place and you throw more would onto it. The additional fuel will cause it to burn more prightly and give off more heat, but as the wood burns down it will again decrease the amount of the heat it gives off and the flames will die down. Ah, I see. Good. I'm still trying to work out all of the particulars, but it is shaping up into a viable system. One problem is that the existance of life around a red star is questionable. We can of course work around this by having it settled way back in the Dark Age of Technology. The plant life and sea life could be variforms of terrestrial plants and animals changed to fit the new enviroment. If it's questionable, then so are most of the worlds in the Anargo sector. They're all orbiting M-class stars, save a few. Hope you don't find it to be a problem, but let us know if it is. One thing that I have always found odd about the 40k universe is that humans seem to have no difficulty eating all of these exotic plants and animals on all of the worlds where they have come to live. This should not be the case unless the life forms had somehow been changed or derived from terrestrial life forms or the people themselves had been changed in order to be able to digest the exotic plants and animals. Yeah, I agree. The chinese seem to have enough difficulties consuming dairy products, so I suppose you'd spend a few days on the toilet after eating an alien critter with bacterias that don't even exist on Earth. This might be a better explaniation of the existance of such variable human life forms such as Ogryns, Squats and Rattlings. This is not to say that there would not be some deviations from the standard human form, but the time for such radical evolotuionary change to take place naturally is way too short. Of course. But then, Squats are completely gone, and Ogryns and Ratlings are slowly fading as well... Of course this is also only one possibility, I need to also look at the atmosphere as well. The light from the system's sun might be changed slightly by the atmosphere to make its light more conducive to life. It comes down to striking a balance between the thickness of the atmosphere and the green house effect it would create. Althought with a world that is 80% water, some of the green house effects should be mitigated. Erm... I'm not sure you have to go and actually design the composition of the atmosphere to the last percentage. You can, but the rest of us don't, except for adding the odd sulfur taint and whatnot
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Post by Destecado on May 1, 2004 9:29:38 GMT -5
Yes, but wouldn't the colonists have the technology to see that this star was a ticking time bomb? All stars due to their very nature are bombs that have already gone off. the are controlled explosions though, balance out by the pull of their massive gravity. As to the technology to predict the probable instability of a star...... I really couldn't say how advanced their stellar cartography abilities were. Besides, when they set up their culture the star was stable. The planet has been populated for thousands of years. This flare activity is a recent occurance, probably within the last two to three hundred years. Or did you wish to have it further in the past? Remember that we are talking about a pocket of hydrogen that has reached the core and increased the heat of the sun. Once this pocket of hydrogen is expended, the star will probably return to its original size. Heheh, poor Imperials. Not a lot of agri-worlds making french fries and chicken wings, are there? Unfortunately no. Processed soy shakes all around. I see the planet at one time exporting alot of its sea life as delicacy food stuffs for the rich. The common citizen would have to make due with the different products created from the abundant sea weed proteen. Such products are always bad. Granted you'll never catch me eating a soy burger, buy soy milk and some ice cream products made with soy are actually quite tastey. If you don't mind, I'd like to play more with the Fallout universe at this point, and introducing mutated two-headed grox, like the two-headed cows that appear in Fallout ;D If it's ok with you. As far as I see it, its still your world. I'm just helping to flesh it out. We would be looking at increased radiation from the sun when it flares, so there would probably be if not rampant mutation, at least a higher than normal number. This would also add some good tension, because I'm sure that the ecclisiarchy faction would seek to eliminate any mutants it found. Of course. But then, Squats are completely gone, and Ogryns and Ratlings are slowly fading as well... Gone but not forgoten. I was going to put forwar the idea of adding ratlings into the Anargo System. I don't know if we would see an entire world of ratlings.....although that opens interesting possibilites, but maybe a colony of them. These could be hold overs from an IG army who settled in the sector rather than returning home. I've always felt that their society has been so under explored. There has to be more to them than just being imperial snipers. Erm... I'm not sure you have to go and actually design the composition of the atmosphere to the last percentage. You can, but the rest of us don't, except for adding the odd sulfur taint and whatnot Yes, I tend to be a tad obsessive, but I hate inconsistancies and bad science. I have to justify to myself that the system is viable before proceeding.
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Post by CELS on May 1, 2004 11:00:26 GMT -5
I really couldn't say how advanced their stellar cartography abilities were. Besides, when they set up their culture the star was stable. The planet has been populated for thousands of years. This flare activity is a recent occurance, probably within the last two to three hundred years. Or did you wish to have it further in the past? No, that's fine. I was just worried, because it seems that humans have pretty advanced stellar cartography abilities even in year 2004, being able to predict supernovas and all that. If they've kept all this knowledge to whenever this planet was colonised, I was wondering if they might be able to predict when this star would be going crazy. But if it's difficult indeed to predict the unstability of such stars, then I'm all for the idea. Unfortunately no. Processed soy shakes all around. I see the planet at one time exporting alot of its sea life as delicacy food stuffs for the rich. The common citizen would have to make due with the different products created from the abundant sea weed proteen. Hmm... even the in-landers? The factories that once processed the soy and sea weed would probably have the shape of craters by now... since it's an agri-world, and since we've already mentioned two-headed grox, perhaps these are a pretty common food source? That's what I had in mind for the tribals anyway. Maybe even some kinds of fungus and vegetables...? The planet might not have been able to export these in the past, but it might have been able to feed its own citizens with it. Such products are always bad. Granted you'll never catch me eating a soy burger, buy soy milk and some ice cream products made with soy are actually quite tastey. Never tried any of that soy stuff. I feel that it goes against my principles as a male Except the butter, which is alright. As far as I see it, its still your world. I'm just helping to flesh it out. We would be looking at increased radiation from the sun when it flares, so there would probably be if not rampant mutation, at least a higher than normal number. Then that's what we'll do As far as I see it, it's anybody's world, I'm just supplying a concept for it, as with the majority of worlds in the Torres subsector. This would also add some good tension, because I'm sure that the ecclisiarchy faction would seek to eliminate any mutants it found. Yep. I believe this was one of the earliest ideas we discussed, actually Gone but not forgoten. I was going to put forwar the idea of adding ratlings into the Anargo System. Do you mean Anargo sector, perhaps? I don't know if we would see an entire world of ratlings.....although that opens interesting possibilites, but maybe a colony of them. These could be hold overs from an IG army who settled in the sector rather than returning home. I've always felt that their society has been so under explored. There has to be more to them than just being imperial snipers. Well, there is. They're also marvelous cooks ;D It'll be interesting to see what you come up with though. Hopefully, not something that involves castes.... Yes, I tend to be a tad obsessive, but I hate inconsistancies and bad science. I have to justify to myself that the system is viable before proceeding. I'm glad. It would break my heart if some science-wizard visited our website in the distant future, and pointed out that Sistina is ridiculously unrealistic!
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Post by Destecado on May 6, 2004 17:35:52 GMT -5
I'm glad. It would break my heart if some science-wizard visited our website in the distant future, and pointed out that Sistina is ridiculously unrealistic! It would matter to me. I"ve found some more recent info that points to the idea that life might exist on red dwarf stars, so it should also be able to exist on our red giant. One of the benefits of circling a red star is a decrease in the amount of UV radiation given off. This would have helped to prevent mutations, which is why there mayhave not beenlife here before the imperials seeded the world with variforms of terrestrial flora and fauna. The flaring of the sun could cause several changes in the world. The radiation need not be lethal, but may instead induce episodes of intense mutationas Mutations are usually harmful, but they provide the diversity necessary to drive evolution (here's your two headed grox). Gamma rays can also induce sterility. It might be interesting to have a culture that is unable to have children, but they wish to continue as a culture so they steal children from other cultures, not to make them slaves, but to bring them up in their own ideas. Maybe this could be the technological based culture. If the culture is under enough rock or water, the effects of the gamma rays may be mitigated. I don't know if the idea of breeders has been done to death in the post apocalyptic genere, but I thought it might fit in with your fall out vision. The flaring star would also emit massive quantities of x-rays. Again much of the biosphere would need to be underground or underwater. We can stop some of this radiation by making the atmosphere a little thicker. this will help to stop most of the original X-rays or gamma-rays, how ever these jolts of irradiation can cause the formation of a "second ionosphere" at fairly low altitudes and disrupt a planet's atmospheric chemistry. These ionized particles can throw of body chemistry as well as make communication over distances next to impossible. It would give the ky of the planet an interesting look. It would take on the appearance of an almost perpetual aurora borealis. this might lead into why the planet was originally abandoned. the breakdown in communication and the disruption of machines zapped by large static discharges could cause a break down in society. Food doesn't arrive in cities, the people starve and riot. ships coming through the atmosphere to land have their instruments thrown off by the wild electro-magnetic disturbances occuring. Eventually the systems completely break down. This of course is a very simplified version of what occured, but does it sound like the direction you wanted to head. P.S. I thought of something that might be one reason people gave up using technology or why technology stopped working in some parts. The increased radiation from the charged particles could lead to alot of fried circuits and degradation of sensative technologies. There could also be the build up of what the inhabitants call "dry lightning" Some machines when they work build up a static charge (ex. the rotors of a heliocopter) If the conditions are right, this could attract the charged particles in the atmosphere causing what amounts to a lightning strike to hit the machine.
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Post by CELS on May 10, 2004 14:04:57 GMT -5
Sorry for the late reply, Destecado! Ironically, this planet is one of the ones that I'm most interested in seeing fully developed, considering that it'll be the background for the first part of the Anargo Chronicles, when we get that up and running. Why Sistina? Well, the Anargo sector hasn't really been developed enough to let the Anargo Chronicles be set on a large scale, and we don't want the plot of the AC to have too big an impact anyway. But I digress... It would matter to me. Well, me too I"ve found some more recent info that points to the idea that life might exist on red dwarf stars, so it should also be able to exist on our red giant. One of the benefits of circling a red star is a decrease in the amount of UV radiation given off. This would have helped to prevent mutations, which is why there mayhave not beenlife here before the imperials seeded the world with variforms of terrestrial flora and fauna. That is good news! The flaring of the sun could cause several changes in the world. The radiation need not be lethal, but may instead induce episodes of intense mutationas Mutations are usually harmful, but they provide the diversity necessary to drive evolution (here's your two headed grox). Yeah, I have a fair idea of how evolution works Good that we could explain the appearance of two headed grox though! Gamma rays can also induce sterility. It might be interesting to have a culture that is unable to have children, but they wish to continue as a culture so they steal children from other cultures, not to make them slaves, but to bring them up in their own ideas. Maybe this could be the technological based culture. If the culture is under enough rock or water, the effects of the gamma rays may be mitigated. I don't know if the idea of breeders has been done to death in the post apocalyptic genere, but I thought it might fit in with your fall out vision. The sun would give off a lot of gamma rays? Well, I'm not terribly interested in making the majority of the population sterile... would it be feasible to have only the mountain-dwellers being sterile? They could live on very, very tall mountains, above the protective layers of the clouds, and be a bunch of sterile mutants who sometimes come down to the rest of the people and kidnap children? The flaring star would also emit massive quantities of x-rays. Again much of the biosphere would need to be underground or underwater. Is there no way around this? Because you do realize that what you're saying now will affect the majority of worlds in the Anargo sector, because of the lack of G- or K- class stars... We can stop some of this radiation by making the atmosphere a little thicker. this will help to stop most of the original X-rays or gamma-rays, how ever these jolts of irradiation can cause the formation of a "second ionosphere" at fairly low altitudes and disrupt a planet's atmospheric chemistry. Will this be enough to make the surface habitable? These ionized particles can throw of body chemistry as well as make communication over distances next to impossible. It would give the ky of the planet an interesting look. It would take on the appearance of an almost perpetual aurora borealis. this might lead into why the planet was originally abandoned. That would definitely add to the trouble, yeah. A sky with the appearence of a perpetual aurora borealis sounds perfect too, to add to the weirdness of the world! Would it be very visible at day though? the breakdown in communication and the disruption of machines zapped by large static discharges could cause a break down in society. Food doesn't arrive in cities, the people starve and riot. ships coming through the atmosphere to land have their instruments thrown off by the wild electro-magnetic disturbances occuring. Not to mention the changes in temperature, brought by growing and shrinking sun... Eventually the systems completely break down. This of course is a very simplified version of what occured, but does it sound like the direction you wanted to head. It does indeed, but it would be nice to incorporate this crazy atmosphere idea with the weird sun idea (Sorry for not using scientific terms ) P.S. I thought of something that might be one reason people gave up using technology or why technology stopped working in some parts. The increased radiation from the charged particles could lead to alot of fried circuits and degradation of sensative technologies. There could also be the build up of what the inhabitants call "dry lightning" Some machines when they work build up a static charge (ex. the rotors of a heliocopter) If the conditions are right, this could attract the charged particles in the atmosphere causing what amounts to a lightning strike to hit the machine. Hmm, would it be possible to limit this to certain regions? Because I'm very interested in having a varied tech level on this world, with everything from warriors in primitive power armour to tribals with simple flint spears.
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Post by Destecado on May 11, 2004 10:17:25 GMT -5
The sun would give off a lot of gamma rays? Well, I'm not terribly interested in making the majority of the population sterile... would it be feasible to have only the mountain-dwellers being sterile? They could live on very, very tall mountains, above the protective layers of the clouds, and be a bunch of sterile mutants who sometimes come down to the rest of the people and kidnap children? The thicker atmosphere should mitigate much of gamma and x-rays bombarding the planet. we could perhaps have an area where the magnetic field of the planet dips causing the second ionosphere to dip closer to the surface of the planet. There is such a dip in our own planets magnetic field in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of South America. It plays havoc with communications and satellites passing through it. Another thought might to have something like the whole in the ozone layer, where extremes of radiation are allowed to stream through to the surface of the planet, but in a small contained area....I'll give it some more thought. We can perhaps scrap or revise the idea of the sterile culture. Is there no way around this? Because you do realize that what you're saying now will affect the majority of worlds in the Anargo sector, because of the lack of G- or K- class stars... This is one reason why it was first beleived that life could not exist around a red dwarf star....We may end up with several worlds that can not support large populations. They may be nothing more than large mining colonies or underground communities. Some of the effects of the radiation can be reduced by having a thicker atmosphere. This will also help to inrease the green house effect making the planet warm than it would otherwise be orbiting such a dim star. This actually gives us some worlds that would be interesting to adventure on. With small populations, much of their territory would open frontier. These worlds might make the perfect meeting places to carry out clandestine missions or smuggling opperations. For the most part these worlds will be tidally locked with the star so there could always be a thriving population on the dark side of the planet, which is some what protected from the flares of the star. That would definitely add to the trouble, yeah. A sky with the appearence of a perpetual aurora borealis sounds perfect too, to add to the weirdness of the world! Would it be very visible at day though? It would not be as visible during the day, but may show up as a slight distortion if you are looking up through the clouds....kind of like the distortion(heat haze) that creates mirrages on the open desert. It does indeed, but it would be nice to incorporate this crazy atmosphere idea with the weird sun idea (Sorry for not using scientific terms ) Hmm, would it be possible to limit this to certain regions? Because I'm very interested in having a varied tech level on this world, with everything from warriors in primitive power armour to tribals with simple flint spears. The dry lightning would usually only be pressent in certain climactic conditions. Maybe during dust storms on the main continent, put enough particles in the air so that the dry lightning can reach the ground. It would also occur more readily in higher elevations which are closer to the ionized layer of the atmosphere.
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Post by CELS on May 13, 2004 11:48:41 GMT -5
Another thought might to have something like the whole in the ozone layer, where extremes of radiation are allowed to stream through to the surface of the planet, but in a small contained area....I'll give it some more thought. We can perhaps scrap or revise the idea of the sterile culture. What you suggest sounds fine to me. If you decide that it's not feasible though, we'll drop it. I'm really counting on you to decide these science things. When we start talking about psychology, I'll try to contribute more I'm interested in keeping this idea though, since it's got a nice fantasy feel to it that matches 40k, and I want to make this planet as rich as possible. This is one reason why it was first beleived that life could not exist around a red dwarf star....We may end up with several worlds that can not support large populations. They may be nothing more than large mining colonies or underground communities. If you really think red stars are such a problem, I suggest you start a thread about this in the World-building thread. Problems with red stars don't only concern Sistina, they concern 80% of the Imperial worlds in Anargo! Some of the effects of the radiation can be reduced by having a thicker atmosphere. This will also help to inrease the green house effect making the planet warm than it would otherwise be orbiting such a dim star. Kewl! This actually gives us some worlds that would be interesting to adventure on. With small populations, much of their territory would open frontier. These worlds might make the perfect meeting places to carry out clandestine missions or smuggling opperations. Might be good for the Sargassos subsector then, no? For the most part these worlds will be tidally locked with the star so there could always be a thriving population on the dark side of the planet, which is some what protected from the flares of the star. But also dead cold It would not be as visible during the day, but may show up as a slight distortion if you are looking up through the clouds....kind of like the distortion(heat haze) that creates mirrages on the open desert. Perfect! The dry lightning would usually only be pressent in certain climactic conditions. Maybe during dust storms on the main continent, put enough particles in the air so that the dry lightning can reach the ground. It would also occur more readily in higher elevations which are closer to the ionized layer of the atmosphere. Again, perfect This is turning into an interesting planet, with your help!
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Post by Destecado on May 14, 2004 13:31:05 GMT -5
Even tidally locked worlds need not be cold on the side away from the sun. It goes to the amount of green house gasses in the atmosphere and the prevailing currents. Think about the great conveyor on earth. It brings warm waters up to around iceland where they cool off and become cold, thus sinking to the bottom of the ocean. The cold water then flows south where it is again warmed and flows north.
If something similar occurs on a tidally locked world, then it should keep the "dark side" of the planet warm enough to support life. The major drawback is of course the lack of light....but that can lead to some interesting cultures.
There could also be the case where life exists in a narrow band in the "Twilight Zone", the area between the light side and dark side of the planet. Habitability can also be increased if the world is put in orbit around a gas giant, which would not only give off warming radiation, but possibly light the world as well.
Another way would be to have a colony exist in deep trenches on the world, these "trench colonies" might be near thermal vents or have some other way of accessing heat directly from the planet. We could also have some worlds where the atmosphere does not support life and the temerature is low. Ice worlds could be interesting.
I'll try to pull all of these ideas together and start a new thread on the topic of planets circling red dwarf stars as you suggested.
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Post by Kage2020 on May 15, 2004 8:30:36 GMT -5
...world, then it should keep the "dark side" of the planet warm enough to support life. The major drawback is of course the lack of light....but that can lead to some interesting cultures. I somehow doubt that the Guide is sensitive enough to do that, and we then slip away to the GURPS Space way of creating worlds, e.g. create what you want. The only problem there is that you then fall into the "clone world" idea that perpetuates GW material. With that said, however, modifying worlds slightly if done carefully should be entirely within the realms of the ASP. There could also be the case where life exists in a narrow band in the "Twilight Zone"... This is the more traditional habitation area of tidally locked worlds. I'll try to pull all of these ideas together and start a new thread on the topic of planets circling red dwarf stars as you suggested. Seems like a reasonable idea. Kage
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Post by CELS on May 15, 2004 9:55:01 GMT -5
As I think I mentioned very early in this thread; I find tidally locked worlds very, very cool in terms of imagery (twilight zone, perpetual darkness, etc) but it's not something I want for Sistina, I'm afraid. That a tidally locked world will appear in the Archaios (almost called it Proteus) subsector is beyond question. I will see one such world in the subsector- I just need a cool concept first. And someone willing to create said world I'm really frightened by what you wrote though, Kage, if I understood you correctly. But we'll deal with that when we get there. At the moment, there are no tidally locked worlds in the Anargo sector, so it's not really important to discuss it at this stage
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Post by Kage2020 on May 17, 2004 19:45:54 GMT -5
Not quite sure what you were getting at there, CELS. I'm merely keeping the options open in special circumstances, which we've been doing from the start... As to no tidally locked worlds? Yes, there are. I'm working on the premise that the captured planetoid in the Anargo Primus system is tidally locked... (But that's also a world that I'm not yet developing for the Anargo system! I'd have to do the companion 'shipyards' system first...) Kage
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Post by CELS on May 18, 2004 23:17:55 GMT -5
Not quite sure what you were getting at there, CELS. I'm merely keeping the options open in special circumstances, which we've been doing from the start... Oh, I'm glad to hear I misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying that if the Guide didn't let us do it, we wouldn't! As to no tidally locked worlds? Yes, there are. I'm working on the premise that the captured planetoid in the Anargo Primus system is tidally locked... (But that's also a world that I'm not yet developing for the Anargo system! I'd have to do the companion 'shipyards' system first...) Again, my bad. Looking forward to reading about that. I might be able to help develope it, if you want. Make my mark on the capital... Anyway, we're moving off-topic here... I'll need to summarize what we've been saying so far. Watch this space.
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Post by Destecado on May 24, 2004 13:38:19 GMT -5
CELS, would you be adverse to changing the name of the planet? Playing around with some ideas for the diffeent culture that might be present, I found a name that might be more appropriate, Lustera. Lustera is a small change to the word Lustrare which means to brighten, which is from the Latin word Lustrum (to purify ceremonially). In Roman times this ceremony of purification took place after the census every five years. The practice of Lustration was a way to purify oneself so that one is fit to enter into communion with god. Check out the following link for further details on Lustration. 65.1911encyclopedia.org/L/LU/LUSTRATION.htmSome of these rituals used fire as the purifying agent. This fits in well I think with the sun expanding bringing the cleansing fire to burn away the wicked or those unfit to join in communion with the god emperor. This could be part of the basis for the fanatical splinter of the imperial cult on the planet. As to the five year cycle, perhaps the radiation drops off during that time or the flares die down enough to allow expiditions to the planet. What are your thoughts?
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Post by CELS on May 24, 2004 14:23:51 GMT -5
While the idea for this fanatical splinter-group sounds interesting, I'm not sure I understand why the planet would be called Lustera, if the lustration was a ritual that appeared a long, long time after the world was originally colonised. Would it perhaps be better to call the kingdom/empire/whatever of these fanatics Lustera?
Mind you, I'm not 100% obsessed with the name Sistina, so that name is still up for discussion. I just need a name that makes sense. Sistina, for example, could be the name of an Imperial Saint.
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Post by Destecado on May 24, 2004 14:39:37 GMT -5
Naming the "country" where the Cult holds power Lustera would be fine. Maybe part of their initiation of pennance is walking out into the open for a proscribed distance without any clothes on. there could be markers on the road away from their city. If you receive penence, the priest will tell you how many marks you must walk.
The penitent must then walt the proscribed distance calling forth prayers to the emperor or proclaining his sins to be carried on the wind to the ear of the emperor. Unprotected from the weather, the skin will soon begin to blister. Many do not survive this penitent walk or return horribly scarred. It is a mark of sanctity to bear such burns. It shows that the sin has been burned out of you. After going on one such walk few will transgress again.
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