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Post by Destecado on Apr 12, 2004 10:57:12 GMT -5
Per your request CELS, I'm starting this thread so that we can discuss the Fallout style world in more detail. Below are answers to the questions you raised in the general Proteus Sub-Sector thread. We really need to come up with a name for the planet or system. Any thoughts? Hmm, why would there be floating cities, do you think? It's a wet world, yes, but that doesn't mean that it would be reasonable to build expensive floating cities. Floating cities are not really a necessity, neither are underwater cities. I was thinking of a world that might have existed prior to the age of strife with high technology. The sea floor might have rich mineral wealth. It may have also served at one time as an Agriworld for surrounding systems. Rather than sending grain products it sent the bounties of its seas; fish, a plankton or seaweed based protein supplement. Were you considering having several land masses? I was considering perhaps one large continent, about the size of Australia (or maybe a little larger. There could perhaps be other places around the world where there were “shallows”. These are areas where undersea mountains would be closer to the surface, but still lie below see level. Large cities could be built on Pylons, sort of like they do with oil rigs, but on a much larger scale. Each riser would be about the size of 2 city blocks. Most would be factories or energy plants. Others could be living quarters or enormous elevators that descend to undersea mining operations, to extract the mineral riches from the planet. I didn’t know what you were aiming for with the population, that is why I came up with making more room through these kinds of habitats. I don't quite understand. These underwater cities, (their presence yet to be explained btw) are normal cities built at the ocean floor, protected by huge heated domes? These domes are there to prevent the ice from cracking the city's buildings open, and keep the surrounding water liquid? Why not just use electrical heating? The undersea domes do not have to be an entire city, perhaps it was an undersea mining operation or just a research facility that has been expanded upon. Did you ever see the movie the Abyss? I was thinking about a colony under water sort of like that, only on a larger scale. As to why are the domes not heated, I didn’t know what level of technology you want ed to give the people. I was trying to go with the idea of a high tech culture slowly losing its ability to maintain its technology. One of the energy producing technologies that a city like this might use would be the natural tides of the planets oceans. Usually around the pylons of oil rigs or around piers on the coast, the tide and waves are funneled through the piers in such a way that they gain additional force. To use this natural force and to dissipate some of the danger to the city, several of the risers have large inlets cut into them. The water surges into the inlets into the riser, which is for the most part hollow on the inside. The water pushes up a series of large pistons that turn turbine creating electrical energy. The continuous flow of the see would produce enough energy to run the city. These systems could still exist and even be functional. The problem arises from the fall in sea levels. If there has been a major climactic change that has caused the world to enter an ice age, the sea level would probably fall as vast quantities of water become frozen near the polar regions. There is evidence that the sea level on earth use to be much lower at one time. It is theorized that at one time the shallow waters between the Cuban mainland and the Isle of Youth was above sea level. A drop in the sea level would reveal additional land mass, but it would also cause the level to fall below the openings in the risers. Without the sea surge, these massive power plants are all but useless. They might have other power sources, but not enough to cover the entire city. I don’t think that all cities should be clogged with ice, maybe only the one that is built on pylons. It may be a little further north. The other sea side cities though in a warmer climate, would still suffer from the receding ocean levels.
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Post by CELS on Apr 13, 2004 2:22:35 GMT -5
How about Sistina? I'm not sure if I've heard it in 40k before... it does sound familiar. It's the name of a song anyway... 'Course, I'm open for suggestions! Sistina, Quirinius, Ignatius, Assissi, Francex, Ivo, Pulcher (the last three are Saints of Orphans, or variations of their names, which seems fitting)
The population of the planet? Hard to say. Hundreds of millions, I suppose. The Imperium would have no idea though. Most of this planet would be in anarchy. Since the planet was abandoned after a great war, the Imperial government was removed, and the world eventually began squabbling for power. As time passed, the power was divided further and further, and wars quickly further diminished the population. Today, wars are quite unusual, simply because few have the power to raise them, nor the motivation to start them.
There would be some cities on this planet, maybe even city-states, but these would be exceptions to the rule. The majority of people on this planet live in villages or small towns.
If you're interested in ocean cities, I guess we could always use the pylon cities intended for Proteus, that harvested oil and minerals on the forgeworld. It's likely that the Adeptus Mechanicus used this design on other worlds in the Imperium as well, such as this one. These would be built on large pylons at sea though, like great oil platforms. Very big ones.
Undersea domes ala the Abyss (except that wasn't a dome) are possible too, but these would be very rare, and most of them would have been abandoned.
I'm kinda sceptic about this new ice age on this world though. It's not like the war happened hundreds of thousand years ago. Actually, I don't know when it would have happened. Post heresy. Probably M39 or so. Would that be enough time for the world's climate to drastically change?
The general image I have of this world, is largely based on the computer RPG Fallout, which is set in the Post-Apocalyptic USA. Infinite wastelands with mutated beasts such as rad-scorpions and brahmin (two-headed cows), mutant warbands, human raiders, primitive tribal herders, and the occassional powerful warparty who have got their hands on pre-war technology such as energy weapons and armour. Here and there, cities have been built around the remains of pre-war bunkers that survived the war, etc.
The 40k variant of this would also see remnants of the Imperial cult, shrines and ancient cathedrals fiercely guarded by those from the Ecclessiarchy who stayed behind when the Imperium did not, to guard the Emperor's holy lands from the raiders. In addition, there would be the occasional ork party, since they tend to pop up everywhere, and there is no Imperium to cleanse the world. Anything else? Chaos cults here and there... basically anything goes on this planet, since the Imperium has stopped caring...
Or would they indeed stop caring? If this world fell to Chaos and was swarmed with daemons, that would be bad news, wouldn't it? Perhaps the Inquisition comes from time to time to capture or execute all psykers?
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Post by Destecado on Apr 13, 2004 14:50:48 GMT -5
How about Sistina? I'm not sure if I've heard it in 40k before... it does sound familiar. It's the name of a song anyway... 'Course, I'm open for suggestions! Sistina, Quirinius, Ignatius, Assissi, Francex, Ivo, Pulcher (the last three are Saints of Orphans, or variations of their names, which seems fitting) It’s as good a name as any, although it does make me think of the Sistine Chapel. We could change it slightly to Sistenna or Sestina but I’ll leave it up to you to decide. The population of the planet? Hard to say. Hundreds of millions, I suppose. The Imperium would have no idea though. Most of this planet would be in anarchy. Since the planet was abandoned after a great war, the Imperial government was removed, and the world eventually began squabbling for power. As time passed, the power was divided further and further, and wars quickly further diminished the population. Today, wars are quite unusual, simply because few have the power to raise them, nor the motivation to start them. There would be some cities on this planet, maybe even city-states, but these would be exceptions to the rule. The majority of people on this planet live in villages or small towns. The wars may have caused a natural disaster or climactic change which caused them to abandon the planet or caused a major “die off” in the population. I did a little investigating on the idea of having an Ice Age. The linked article has some interesting insights into how rapid changes can occur in the environment causing an Ice Age to come on suddenly rather than taking hold over hundreds of years. www.commondreams.org/views04/0130-11.htmThe science is corroborated by several other sources. On a world that is mostly oceans, I wonder what effects the current would have on the environment. The entire world also does not even need to be covered in ice. The shut down of the “Great conveyor Belt” (the circulating currents of the Atlantic and Pacific) caused extreme droughts to occur in Africa and other equatorial regions, which lead to wild fires and arid conditions. The stopping of the great Conveyor Belt, which brought eternal winter to the North also disrupted the seasonal rains near the equator. If you're interested in ocean cities, I guess we could always use the pylon cities intended for Proteus, that harvested oil and minerals on the forgeworld. It's likely that the Adeptus Mechanicus used this design on other worlds in the Imperium as well, such as this one. These would be built on large pylons at sea though, like great oil platforms. Very big ones. I agree. If they worked else where, I’m sure that the AM would use them here as well. You don’t have to include the “Shallows” that I mentioned earlier if you do not want to, I just felt that you really would not have deep oceans over the entire world. There are several places on earth where island sized mountain ranges lie just below the water (maybe by a couple of hundred feet). Some of these are volcanic islands that are still being built up by volcanic activity. There is a new island that is still submerged in the Hawaiian chain that is being formed in this manner. Others may be areas that at one time were above sea level, but due to erosion or a rise in sea level are now beneath the waves. Undersea domes ala the Abyss (except that wasn't a dome) are possible too, but these would be very rare, and most of them would have been abandoned. I realize they were not domes. I was still toying with the idea when I originally posted and before I remembered the habitat / mining rig from the abyss. We don’t need to include these, they may have been lost during the wars. Maybe they still exist in the planets folklore that speaks of men from the sea. The general image I have of this world, is largely based on the computer RPG Fallout, which is set in the Post-Apocalyptic USA. Infinite wastelands with mutated beasts such as rad-scorpions and brahmin (two-headed cows), mutant warbands, human raiders, primitive tribal herders, and the occassional powerful warparty who have got their hands on pre-war technology such as energy weapons and armour. Here and there, cities have been built around the remains of pre-war bunkers that survived the war, etc. The 40k variant of this would also see remnants of the Imperial cult, shrines and ancient cathedrals fiercely guarded by those from the Ecclessiarchy who stayed behind when the Imperium did not, to guard the Emperor's holy lands from the raiders. In addition, there would be the occasional ork party, since they tend to pop up everywhere, and there is no Imperium to cleanse the world. Anything else? Chaos cults here and there... basically anything goes on this planet, since the Imperium has stopped caring. Or would they indeed stop caring? If this world fell to Chaos and was swarmed with daemons, that would be bad news, wouldn't it? Perhaps the Inquisition comes from time to time to capture or execute all psykers? Would this be considered a feral world by Imperial standards? I like the idea of ecclessiarchy representatives remaining on the world. Maybe you could have one that was loyal to Vandire still in charge of a city on the world. He could have his own frateris militia and maybe even a core of heretical sisters of battle (Amazon nuns) that do his bidding. One thing that we might want to consider is that the Age of Apostasy really didn’t occur that long ago (in terms of the overall time line). It took centuries for the Imperium to quell the uprisings that resulted from the Age of Apostasy. There are many worlds that have yet to be reconquored. Some are hidden by warp storms others have simply been forgotten.
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Post by CELS on Apr 14, 2004 8:46:51 GMT -5
It’s as good a name as any, although it does make me think of the Sistine Chapel. We could change it slightly to Sistenna or Sestina but I’ll leave it up to you to decide. Hmm... at present, I don't have the time to start on this world. When I do have time to build another world, it'll most likely be an ork world anyway, and after that I want to get started on the capitol of Proteus. In other words, I'm dependant on someone else to take care of this world, so I'll leave it Btw, here's a quote for you; "Sistina is a gothic character from the ancient gothical/mythological writings. Sistina was a Neophyte (Novice in religious rituals) who had high mental strength. She was captured by Gruz an evil powered demon and taken as a slave. She escaped and had to abandon the reign leaving her love behind-a good powered demon. This is here story more or less, as with any other gothic character, stories varie from one teller to another, but the idea of Danzig's song was to write about the loneliness of this powerful being."Not really any symbolic meaning. It's just the name of a song, and I liked the sound of it The wars may have caused a natural disaster or climactic change which caused them to abandon the planet or caused a major “die off” in the population. Hmm, I did see the world having rather hot regions with deserts and prairies, but... hmmm... we'll see what numbers come up when the temperature sheet is done. Either way, we're not supposed to mess with the physical data of the world too much, so that'll give us an idea of our options. The science is corroborated by several other sources. On a world that is mostly oceans, I wonder what effects the current would have on the environment. The entire world also does not even need to be covered in ice. The shut down of the “Great conveyor Belt” (the circulating currents of the Atlantic and Pacific) caused extreme droughts to occur in Africa and other equatorial regions, which lead to wild fires and arid conditions. The stopping of the great Conveyor Belt, which brought eternal winter to the North also disrupted the seasonal rains near the equator. This sounds perfect then. We get both arid areas and icy areas. Everybody's happy I agree. If they worked else where, I’m sure that the AM would use them here as well. You don’t have to include the “Shallows” that I mentioned earlier if you do not want to, I just felt that you really would not have deep oceans over the entire world. There are several places on earth where island sized mountain ranges lie just below the water (maybe by a couple of hundred feet). Some of these are volcanic islands that are still being built up by volcanic activity. There is a new island that is still submerged in the Hawaiian chain that is being formed in this manner. Others may be areas that at one time were above sea level, but due to erosion or a rise in sea level are now beneath the waves. I have no problem with some cities being built on shallows. However.... I don't presume to know anything about geology, but if they're built on volcanic islands, that rules out them being built for mining purposes. I think the image of cities built at sea is very cool, as evident by the Sea-Forges of Proteus, but we do need an explanation for why they're there. Perhaps there's a very large ocean on the planet, and not having any orbital defences on this side would mean that invaders could enter the atmosphere on this side with little difficulty. As a result, they built huge orbital defence fortresses on volcanic islands on one side of the planet? Or perhaps these cities were built after the great disaster that struck, to escape the toxic wastes of the mainland? I realize they were not domes. I was still toying with the idea when I originally posted and before I remembered the habitat / mining rig from the abyss. We don’t need to include these, they may have been lost during the wars. Maybe they still exist in the planets folklore that speaks of men from the sea. I didn't think you meant that they were domes, either I have no problem with old deep-sea mining installations on this world, nor the idea that some of them are still populated. The more different cultures and cities on this planet, the better. I want to see anything from feral orks, human tribals, mad max-style road bandits, and zealous descendants of the ecclessiarchy, to civilised and even peaceful citizens, living in the cities built around the few remaining working aquaducts. Would this be considered a feral world by Imperial standards? Good question. I actually don't know, but I guess so. It's not a feudal world, nor a civilised world, so... yeah. Maybe a subclass of the feral world class. I like the idea of ecclessiarchy representatives remaining on the world. Maybe you could have one that was loyal to Vandire still in charge of a city on the world. He could have his own frateris militia and maybe even a core of heretical sisters of battle (Amazon nuns) that do his bidding. One thing that we might want to consider is that the Age of Apostasy really didn’t occur that long ago (in terms of the overall time line). It took centuries for the Imperium to quell the uprisings that resulted from the Age of Apostasy. There are many worlds that have yet to be reconquored. Some are hidden by warp storms others have simply been forgotten. I did not know that. But this would be one of the worlds that would be reconquered rather quickly, being smack dab in the middle of the the Proteus subsector of Anargo. The followers of Vandire in the Anargo Sector were all removed millennia ago. But why say that he's a follower of Vandire? Perhaps he just saw the need to raise an army, and realised that if he followed Imperial Law and did not recruit an army of men, his shrines and cathedrals would soon fall to raiders. Faced with destruction, he built an army of Templars and a Militia similar to the Frateris Militia? Basically, anything goes on this planet. We could have mad Tech-Priests doing experiments that were banned by the Adeptus Mechanicus, we could have corrupted descendants of the Ecclessiarchy (as well as noble ones), we could have a techno-cult trying to build a space ship to get them off world, we could have large feral ork kingdoms, mutant armies, a witchking (rogue psyker).... anything goes ;D
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Post by Destecado on Apr 15, 2004 11:16:47 GMT -5
Hmm, I did see the world having rather hot regions with deserts and prairies, but... hmmm... we'll see what numbers come up when the temperature sheet is done. Either way, we're not supposed to mess with the physical data of the world too much, so that'll give us an idea of our options. Once you get a chance, let me know the figures, and I'll see what can be worked out. I have no problem with some cities being built on shallows. However.... I don't presume to know anything about geology, but if they're built on volcanic islands, that rules out them being built for mining purposes. I think the image of cities built at sea is very cool, as evident by the Sea-Forges of Proteus, but we do need an explanation for why they're there. Perhaps there's a very large ocean on the planet, and not having any orbital defences on this side would mean that invaders could enter the atmosphere on this side with little difficulty. As a result, they built huge orbital defence fortresses on volcanic islands on one side of the planet? Actually as I indicated, not all of the Shallows are caused by volcanic activity, but if they were built on top of "hot spots" on the crust, it may have been to tap into the easily accessable thermal energy of the planet. This heat is used to create steam that turns turbines creating electricity for the city or to run the industrial smelters that allow the city to cheaply process the minerals and metals obtained from deposits burried in the sea floor around the area. The city could also be built on several small islands surrounded by a reef. Venice is built in this manner. the main city could be built on these islands with extesions built off of the city on pylons. The city could be built in layers with cananls running throughout for transportation and for waste removal. Perhaps like venice the city has sunk over the centuries, leaving some areas inaccessable (now underwater). We could also have drift colonies. These could be large Island sized structure that float on the currents of the great ocean. This goes back to the old myth of islands built on the backs of giant turtles. Instead of being built on turtles, these may have been cities that were designed to float with large drift nets below in order to fish in the large oceans. This would be much more efficient than sending out fishing fleets although they could be employed as well, They provided a centarl point for the catch to be brought in withough having to sail all the way to shallows or to the main continent or island chains. There might be only one of these cities left. they were at one time able to move themselves, but with the loss of technology, they are at the mercy of the tides. Some may have been sunk by storms or just are no longer inhabited. We were talking about perhaps having people in the froen north, perhaps the last remaining city was carried north by the currents and became locked in the ice. Since the ice never melts, it is stuck in the north. This would make a home for those who venture out across the ice pack. Or perhaps these cities were built after the great disaster that struck, to escape the toxic wastes of the mainland? I don't know if they would have the technical expertise to build them after the disaster, maybe there was a great exodus to the existing cities after the disaster. This would lead to floating shanty towns or hodge podged additions to the existing structure. If you've seen Water World, we could also have roving bands of pirates and raiders that might attack these communities. I did not know that. But this would be one of the worlds that would be reconquered rather quickly, being smack dab in the middle of the the Proteus subsector of Anargo. The followers of Vandire in the Anargo Sector were all removed millennia ago. But why say that he's a follower of Vandire? Perhaps he just saw the need to raise an army, and realised that if he followed Imperial Law and did not recruit an army of men, his shrines and cathedrals would soon fall to raiders. Faced with destruction, he built an army of Templars and a Militia similar to the Frateris Militia? Basically, anything goes on this planet. We could have mad Tech-Priests doing experiments that were banned by the Adeptus Mechanicus, we could have corrupted descendants of the Ecclessiarchy (as well as noble ones), we could have a techno-cult trying to build a space ship to get them off world, we could have large feral ork kingdoms, mutant armies, a witchking (rogue psyker).... anything goes ;D It doesn't have to be a supporter of Vandire, it was just a thought.....Actually having him espouse a version of the Imperial cult is actually good. This might be why the Imperium does not take a direct hand in the planet. They view him as the defacto voice of the Imperium on the world. The Imperium is also not above using trickery. In the Index Astartes article of the Relictors chapter, it talks about how they at one time recruited from a feral planet (before their trouble with the Inquisition). The populace of the feral world viewd them as metal gods descending from the sky. Maybe they appear to pull a tythe of people from the planet, but they only descend in this priests "holy city". this gives hime a form of ligitimacy. Maybe to many the war that destroyed their world is put off as the displeasure of the "gods". The priest is preaching the true relgion and only the "elect" who follow the true faith will have the chance to be lifted up by the gods. They are of course taken off in space ships, but to the ignorant pou=pulace, they are being taken to heaven. Of course not everyone believes this. As you said, there are some communities who have a semblence of technology who revile this "false" religion and put their faith in technology. They view the cause of the war as stemming from technology put into the hands of those that did not fully understand it. If the scientist rather than the politicians made the descisions, the war would never have come about. This society could be a study in the proto Adeptus Mechanicus. The scientis have taken over governance and only give use of technology to those they deem worthy. this elect group rules and makes descisions fo rthose they term the "unenlightened". Then there are those communities who live outside the emperors light. These include humans that have descended into barberism, communities that have become isolations, orks bands, and maybe other alien species.
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Post by CELS on Apr 15, 2004 16:54:33 GMT -5
Once you get a chance, let me know the figures, and I'll see what can be worked out. 7,27,21 - M-V - B878643-8 Ag 903 Im 2B1 Large world (8), standard atmosphere, tainted (7), wet world (80%), millions of citizens (6), representative democracy (4), Low law, machine guns prohibited (3), Tech level 8, Singe cellullar life (2). That's all the figures I have at the moment. I doubt I'll have the time to work out the rest for quite some time, so if you want to know number of continents, gravity, length of day, etc, I'm afraid you're going to need the guide. Actually as I indicated, not all of the Shallows are caused by volcanic activity, but if they were built on top of "hot spots" on the crust, it may have been to tap into the easily accessable thermal energy of the planet. This heat is used to create steam that turns turbines creating electricity for the city or to run the industrial smelters that allow the city to cheaply process the minerals and metals obtained from deposits burried in the sea floor around the area. That sounds like a good idea. The shallow-cities are officially welcome on Sistina The city could also be built on several small islands surrounded by a reef. Venice is built in this manner. the main city could be built on these islands with extesions built off of the city on pylons. The city could be built in layers with cananls running throughout for transportation and for waste removal. Perhaps like venice the city has sunk over the centuries, leaving some areas inaccessable (now underwater). That would be cool, yeah. This world is really getting a rich background, thanks to you We could also have drift colonies. These could be large Island sized structure that float on the currents of the great ocean. This goes back to the old myth of islands built on the backs of giant turtles. Instead of being built on turtles, these may have been cities that were designed to float with large drift nets below in order to fish in the large oceans. I don't quite see how those would be more efficient than sending out fishing fleets, since the floating cities wouldn't be able to transport the fish to the mainland fast enough to keep it fresh, so it'd only be for its own use. There might be only one of these cities left. they were at one time able to move themselves, but with the loss of technology, they are at the mercy of the tides. Some may have been sunk by storms or just are no longer inhabited. Cool. Some of them could even be barely floating at all, with large parts underwater. They'd look like floating towers, with only the tallest construction still over the surface of the ocean... We were talking about perhaps having people in the froen north, perhaps the last remaining city was carried north by the currents and became locked in the ice. Since the ice never melts, it is stuck in the north. This would make a home for those who venture out across the ice pack. That's another possibility, yeah. And of course, a few floating cities would have suffered worse fates, their tall towers portruding from glaciers here and there. Actually, all kinds of buildings could be portruding from glaciers, what with the new ice age and all. I don't know if they would have the technical expertise to build them after the disaster, maybe there was a great exodus to the existing cities after the disaster. This would lead to floating shanty towns or hodge podged additions to the existing structure. If you've seen Water World, we could also have roving bands of pirates and raiders that might attack these communities. Indeed. Such water world imagery is already used on a couple of other worlds in the sector though (especially Nagoma in the Dorvastor subsector), so it should only be a minor phenomenon on Sistina, I think. It doesn't have to be a supporter of Vandire, it was just a thought.....Actually having him espouse a version of the Imperial cult is actually good. This might be why the Imperium does not take a direct hand in the planet. They view him as the defacto voice of the Imperium on the world. Cool! The Ecclessiarchy could actually be supporting him behind the back of the Adeptus Terra. Of course, they shouldn't really care if the Ecclessiarchy supports a small army on some abandoned world, but still... Maybe they appear to pull a tythe of people from the planet, but they only descend in this priests "holy city". this gives hime a form of ligitimacy. Maybe to many the war that destroyed their world is put off as the displeasure of the "gods". The priest is preaching the true relgion and only the "elect" who follow the true faith will have the chance to be lifted up by the gods. I assume you're talking about the Frost Wraiths now. The Imperial Guard would never recruit from a world such as this, and the Ecclessiarchy wouldn't find any people of use. The Adeptus Mechanicus might find potential servitors here, but they find those everywhere. They view the cause of the war as stemming from technology put into the hands of those that did not fully understand it. If the scientist rather than the politicians made the descisions, the war would never have come about. This society could be a study in the proto Adeptus Mechanicus. The scientis have taken over governance and only give use of technology to those they deem worthy. this elect group rules and makes descisions fo rthose they term the "unenlightened". So, like in the Imperium, this world would see some animosity between the proto-Cult Mechanicus and the followers of the Emperor's Cult. I'm not suggesting that these two forces dominate the planet though. That would be far too boring. I still want to see raiders, Orks, feral tribes, the rogue psyker witchking, etc. Then there are those communities who live outside the emperors light. These include humans that have descended into barberism, communities that have become isolations, orks bands, and maybe other alien species. Indeed ;D Not too many aliens though. That would border on sillyness
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Post by Destecado on Apr 15, 2004 17:06:06 GMT -5
I'll keep working to flesh out some more ideas. I'll also try to muddle through the number to get a better idea of theplanet as a whole.
On the drift colonies, I imagine them big enough to support landing pads on which transport shuttles could pick up the cargo and carry it off to the mainland. We are talking about structures that would cover several football fields if not large. Maybe they served as the home base for a fleet of fishing ships.
Rather than having aircraft like todays super carriers, they have births for about 2 dozen fishing vessels. The catch is then transported up to the flight deck where as above shuttles descend to carry off large caro containers of the days catch. Is that more agreeable?
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Post by CELS on Apr 15, 2004 17:13:19 GMT -5
Sounds fantastic. By the way, in the computer game Fallout, planes and helicopters were almost non-existant, making it a fantastic military advantage for those who had access to those. I'm keen that the same applies to Sistina, and that indeed most advanced vehicles such as tanks, star shuttles, submarines, etc are rare in the extreme. The war would see most of this world's military resources destroyed, and what remained would probably break down after centuries of anarchy, where the expertise to maintain such machinery all but disappeared. What are your thoughts on this? I'm looking forward to reading more about your ideas for this world. In my book, you're hereby in charge of this planet, so feel free to rename it, if that pleases you. May I hope for a standard representation in the near or distant future?
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Post by Destecado on Apr 27, 2004 15:23:09 GMT -5
I've run some ideas past Kage and have thought of a good reason why the Imperium may have abandoned the world. It will still be post apocalyptic, but not so much from a war as a change in the systems star. As stars age, they go can go through changes. The equilibrium between the pull of gravity trying to make the star contract and expansion cause by the heat from nuclear reaction is thrown out of balance as nuclear reaction subsides. The star begins to contract. As it contracts nuclear reaction again begins to pick up causing the star to expand, usually beyond the old equilbrium point. As its surface cools, it again begins take as few as a couple of hours to occur, or much longer, depending on the star. This process can be repeated over and over. It may take as little as a couple of hours or much longer depending on the star (mass, rotation, elements present, etc.) A variable star fluctuates in luminosity as it fluctuates in size. For more information, check out the links below. www.ifa.hawaii.edu/users/mickey/ASTR110L_S04/zetagem.htmlzebu.uoregon.edu/~js/ast122/lectures/lec15.html
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Post by CELS on Apr 27, 2004 15:54:45 GMT -5
Hmmm... sounds interesting... *gets the image of tribals thinking that the Emperor is punishing them*
Well, what would the effects be on the planet, exactly? And how will this change what we had planned for it?
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Post by Destecado on Apr 27, 2004 16:10:41 GMT -5
I'm still trying to work out the specifics. I'm trying to find a star that has a large enough habitable zone where our planet won't be incinerated when the sun goes through an expansion period. The planet will probably be bombarded in x-rays during these periods leading to increased radiation (or "rad storms" as Kage termed them).
We'll probably lose the whole ice age idea as the planet will in fact become much hotter due to the expansion of the sun. Of course this would be cyclical. As the sun shrinks, the temperaures would also start to go down.
One thing that might happen is that the atmosphere becomes somewhat thicker as more water evaporates. I was also considering the melting of the ice caps which has covered some of the previous agricultural lands in shallow seas.
As I indicated, the time for expansion and contraction can vary greatly. Any idea on how long you would like the process to take? Would it be an annual occurance or once every couple of seasons?
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Post by CELS on Apr 27, 2004 16:21:46 GMT -5
Well, remember that if you can't find a star, we can always request changing one.
So basically, this process will make the temperature extremely varied? For example, if the max temperature of the planet is typically 40 degrees celsius, and the minimum temperature is typically -90, there might be seasons where the max temperature is suddenly 80 degrees celsius, and where the minimum temperature is suddenly -130?
As for the rate of occurance, I'd like it to happen so often that it prevents forests and jungles from spreading on most parts of the planet. Normally, I'd like for the planet to be something of a sun-scorched wasteland, perhaps turned into a freezing tundra at times.
Would this be feasible, you think?
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Post by Destecado on Apr 27, 2004 16:45:38 GMT -5
I'm still trying to gather all of the scientific data. It sounds reasonable, but let me double check. I think I may have narrowed it down to one type of variable star that might work. Mira variables are a class of pulsating variable stars characterized by very red colors, pulsation periods longer than 100 days, and light amplitudes greater than one magnitude. They are red giant stars in the very late stages of stellar evolution (the asymptotic giant branch) that will expel their outer envelopes as planetary nebulae and become white dwarfs within a few million years. Mira Variables Mira variables are believed to be stars with less than two solar masses but can be thousands of times more luminous than the Sun due to their very large, distended envelopes. They are believed to be pulsating in radial modes, in which the entire star expands and contracts in spherical symmetry. This results in a change in both radius and temperature, causing the change in luminosity. The pulsation period is a function of the mass and radius of the star. Though most Mira variables share many similarities in behavior and structure, they are a heterogeneous class of variables due to differences in age, mass, pulsation mode, and chemical composition. For example, many, such as R Leporis have spectra dominated by carbon , suggesting that material from the core of the star has been transported to the surface. This material often forms dust shrouds around the star, which also contribute to periodic dimming and brightening. A few Mira variables are also known to be natural maser sources. A small subset of Miras appear to change their period over time -- the period increases or decreases by a substantial amount (up to a factor of three) over the course of several decades to a few centuries. This is believed to be caused by thermal pulses, where a shell of hydrogen near the core of the star becomes hot and dense enough to undergo nuclear fusion. This changes the structure of the star, which manifests itself as a change in period. This process is predicted to happen to all Mira variables, but the relatively short duration of thermal pulses (a few thousand years) over the asymptotic giant branch lifetime of the star (a few million years), means we only see it in a few of the several thousand Mira stars known. However, most Mira variables exhibit slight cycle-to-cycle changes in period, probably caused by nonlinear behavior in the stellar envelope. This information is taken from an online encyclopidia. If you wish, you can also access it using the link below. The articles has several links to explain such terms as luminosity, planetary nebula, etc. which did not come over with the above post. encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Mira%20variableI think this might be the best type, because it can go throught a flare stage over several centuries and then quiet down. It is therefore possible that the star has recently entered such a phase. A red giant star will also give us a habitable zone far enough away that the planet would hopefully survive (although not unscathed) these flares.
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Post by CELS on Apr 27, 2004 19:00:40 GMT -5
Just one question; Wouldn't the humans that colonized this world have to be very stupid to do so? We can always write a story about a lost ship colonizing the planet in some kind of emergency (lack of food, water or oxygen), but for the Imperium to invest resources in building the planet...
Hmm.. unless the survivors refused to move off-world for some reason. The Imperium would still demand that the world pay its tithes, and then they moved out when things got bad.
How's that sound?
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Post by Destecado on Apr 29, 2004 10:54:46 GMT -5
I'm not sure what you mean by the colonists being stupid to colonizae the world. The changes that have begun to occur in the star I'm thinking would be a recent occurance.
Prior to this it was an important agri world. It provided abundnat fish and other sea life for transport off world. The seas are also important for algea farms or sea kelp farms that can be rendered down into a variety of food stuffs. Think about how many different products are made from soy beans these days.
The changes in the sun have begun to threaten the viability of the crops. The suns expansion would also probably cause a mass exodus from the planet. There of course would be those that were left behind as well as those that come to planet to scavange anything that might be left.
This solar activity does not mean that the sun is going to explode or go out any time soon. The best way to think about is if you have a fire going in the fire place and you throw more would onto it. The additional fuel will cause it to burn more prightly and give off more heat, but as the wood burns down it will again decrease the amount of the heat it gives off and the flames will die down.
I'm still trying to work out all of the particulars, but it is shaping up into a viable system. One problem is that the existance of life around a red star is questionable. We can of course work around this by having it settled way back in the Dark Age of Technology. The plant life and sea life could be variforms of terrestrial plants and animals changed to fit the new enviroment.
One thing that I have always found odd about the 40k universe is that humans seem to have no difficulty eating all of these exotic plants and animals on all of the worlds where they have come to live. This should not be the case unless the life forms had somehow been changed or derived from terrestrial life forms or the people themselves had been changed in order to be able to digest the exotic plants and animals.
This might be a better explaniation of the existance of such variable human life forms such as Ogryns, Squats and Rattlings. This is not to say that there would not be some deviations from the standard human form, but the time for such radical evolotuionary change to take place naturally is way too short.
Of course this is also only one possibility, I need to also look at the atmosphere as well. The light from the system's sun might be changed slightly by the atmosphere to make its light more conducive to life. It comes down to striking a balance between the thickness of the atmosphere and the green house effect it would create. Althought with a world that is 80% water, some of the green house effects should be mitigated.
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