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Post by CELS on Dec 6, 2004 14:20:16 GMT -5
Personally, I prefer that the Old Ones put the tomb world in the proto-dimension in order to contain the Necrons. Of course, this does not mean they did not do research on them when they had the chance. But primarily, I see it as an attempt to contain them. And the idea that this contributed to the development of the D-cannon is quite cool. As for the seven 'artefacts', I'd like to see them at the outskirts of this proto-dimension. If you see the proto-dimension as one huge bubble (originally), then they would be on the edge of the bubble. When the original proto-dimension collapsed into several fragments, the one huge bubble turned into a cluster of smaller bubbles sticking together, but the 'artefacts' were still at the outskirts of the original proto-dimension. Looking at my beautiful illustration, you'll get an idea of what I mean. The ugly purple stuff that hurts to look at is obviously the warp. The black stuff with the yellow lining is a small piece of the matterium, brought into the warp by the 'artefacts' which are the red squares of varying size and shape (Note: not on purpose). The teal coloured circles within the matterium are obviously star systems. As you can see, the Fall lead to the fragmentation of the proto-dimension. Some of these fragments might have exploded back into the matterium, along with the nearby damaged 'artefact', whilst other stayed more or less intact in the warp. The phasing of artefacts, in and out of the warp, can be achieved thanks to the many warp rifts that have been created post-Fall. Actually, the same could be true for the tombworld. In the future, when/if we want the tombworld to appear, we could do that simply by reducing the size of the warp rift. It would be like uncovering something at the bottom of a lake by draining it for water.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 6, 2004 14:41:26 GMT -5
That's another possibility. But what is it that you would suggest is the the thing that truly needs to be understood about them? The Necrons - even the C'tan themselves - are not exactly the most complex race around other than the ph... Oh, you say that next. Only problem here is the Necron/C'tan abilities that complex? Great, they teleport and have guns that slowly disintegrate their target... Quite cool concept, but in reality? They may have been testing nanoviruses or other ways to degrade the necrodermis. There is no need to fight the enemy face to face if you can devise "germ" warfare to destroy his ability to fight. The could just as easily have been trying computer viruses. They might also be looking for a way to tap into the Necron communications grid. If they could know ahead of time where they were going to attack and in what strength, it could change the whole nature of the conflict. Another avenue may have been to subvert the Necrons. Prior to the emergence of the C'tan, the Necrontyr had already been fighting a war with the Old Ones. The relationship between the Necrons and the C'tan was probably not known by the Old Ones. If it was some for of signal that the C'tan used to control the Necrons through their necrodermis, then by cutting the Necrons off from the source of the transmisson, they might be able to make the Necrons. Of course not knowing the nature of the signal or if one really existed, the Old Ones would need some Necrons to study. These are just a couple of ideas off the top of my head. There are probably plenty more that I have not even touched on. An interesting idea that bears thinking about. The Old Ones are often represented in far too benign a light to fit in with the rather simplistic ideas of the universe itself (or at least the published representation of that universe). When your fighting an interstellar war...and losing, how benign can you really afford to be. "Humanity" and fair play go out the window when your facing extinction. That's one of the things that I would prefer was not the case. Rather, the 'fortresses' maintain to stabilise the fields despite their increased fragmentation but it is a rather delicate case. This way the status quo can be intereferred with without having to enter into the fragment itself. Whether it is possible to enter a fragment without switching off the stabilisation field is another matter. I disagree. With the amount of time that has passes, if the artifacts were just sitting in the warp, then they may have previously been located. If they were instead obscured within the fragments, then they might go unnoticed. Its like trying to find places where an meteor has struck the earth. If it is in a baren area, such as the desert in Arizon, the crater is highly visible. If instead it is filled with water and now covered with trees, it becomes harder to spot. So to the artifacts obscured inside of the proto-dimensional fragments may go unnoticed. As for transitioning into one of the proto-dimensions, they are for the most part made of the same matter as the matterium, it should be rather easy for a ship to access them...unless you wish to add some other difficulty to it. <grin> You may recall that I personally never went for that idea. I like my swords looking like swords. I'll leave the metaphors to poets on this rather simply matter! So they are not changed, mearly buried or somehow else obscured in the protodimensional fragments. I'm afraid that, for me, the Necrons are more than able to have an affect on consensual reality. That's kind of the point of them. The question is whether all Necrons have that affect or whether it is only those that are 'living machines' and have consiousness, even if not necessarily a 'soul'. (E.g. similar to the C'tan, with the absence of Spirit defining them in - perhaps - the same manner that the absence of Matter defines the Old Ones (thinking Spheres, there).) I agree, this comes down to the discussion of whether all the Necrons or sentient or just certain types. In fact, when it comes down to it, the idea of Old Ones as transcended beings is something that I have always preferred... It would not be unreasonable - although quite cliched - to work with the idea that they gave up the spiritual form and, for some reason, their inherent connection with it (as represented through the Sphere of Matter). I'm not sure what you meant by this can you try to explain it in more depth? That's the part that I don't like... The idea that sentients may have been caught up following the Shattering is quite interesting. But that the artefacts/'fortresses' began to create life. That's not something that I'm particular fond of. We don't have to go with it then. The basic building blocks for life to eventually come about would exist, so life probably evolved on its own. This would also explain why each proto-dimensional fragment is slightly different or has slightly different laws governing it. No two realities would evolve in exactly the same way. They might be very close, but there would be differences. As to the phasing of the artefacts into reality and out of... this was one of the things that was discussed in the Heart thread. The main problem is that it ties into the idea that if you turn off the 'stabilising field' you precipitate into reality. Again, this would be the ultimate 'get out' system and take away some of the danger of the warp... Erm, when it was dangerous that is. I think it all depends on the proximity of the proto-dimensional fragments to the matterium. If they were in the near warp, then yes I think they would. Of course these realities are also made up of matter not of the materium. where did this matter come from? I think it came form the energy in the warp. Of course the warp or immaterium is formless, but if the energy was absorbed into a system during its creation, the energy would probably form based on the laws of the reality. The formation of the proto-dimensional fragments were in a sense mini-bangs (creation of a pocket universe).
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Post by CELS on Dec 6, 2004 15:58:30 GMT -5
where did this matter come from? I think it came form the energy in the warp. Of course the warp or immaterium is formless, but if the energy was absorbed into a system during its creation, the energy would probably form based on the laws of the reality. The formation of the proto-dimensional fragments were in a sense mini-bangs (creation of a pocket universe). I think you're looking at this all wrong. To me, it's not a pocket universe, and it's not a question of where the matter came from. Think of the web created by the 'artefacts' as a small cup. If air is the matterium and water is the immatterium, then the 'artefacts' took the cup and put it upside down under the water, creating a small pocket of air under the surface. A small pocket of matterium in the immatterium. The matter came from where this pocket used to be in the matterium. This left a warp rift. When the 'tidalwave' came, some of the artefacts were destroyed or damaged, resulting in the fragmentation of the proto-dimension, and even the destructive return of some fragments to the matterium. That's how I see it at the moment. You keep coming up with new alternatives Destecado, so fast that as soon as we've begun discussing one of your suggestions, you suggest a new one. I suggest that we stick with the above, talk it over, see if it works, and take it from there. If it doesn't work, then we can start looking at the alternatives. PS: I've edited the post above
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Post by Destecado on Dec 6, 2004 16:32:20 GMT -5
EDIT:
Curse me, I came up with another alternative suggestion (below). I promise to stick with one in the future...but which one should we stick with? I've sort of include the concept of the miriad of warp rifts in the Heart of the Sector being created by fragments of the proto-dimension crashing back into the matterium.
Not all of them would be destroyed upon the impact creating a warp rift. Some may be stuck half way in and out of the matterium (slowly sliding into the matterium). What looks like a warp rift may actually be a pocket dimension. Personally, I prefer that the Old Ones put the tomb world in the proto-dimension in order to contain the Necrons. Of course, this does not mean they did not do research on them when they had the chance. But primarily, I see it as an attempt to contain them. And the idea that this contributed to the development of the D-cannon is quite cool. Well....its still open to discussion, but we need to come up with a good reason why the were going to imprison the Necrons rather than just destroying them...It could do with the fact that even when they destroyed them, the Necrons would just phase back to their tomb worlds and be rebuilt. If however you remove the tomb worlds, they would have nowhere to return to and then the mess could be cleaned up...which opens up another possibility of why they were cordoning the tomb world off. It could have been similar to what they do to fumigate against bugs. A tent is thrown over the house and either bug bombs are set off in the hose or insecticides are pumped in. Once the infestation is erradcated, the tent is taken down and people can return to their home. It could be that they were going to try to eliminate the Necrons one Tomb world at a time. remove their fall back points and then mop up the staggelers and the C'tan. How does that sound? As for the seven 'artefacts', I'd like to see them at the outskirts of this proto-dimension. If you see the proto-dimension as one huge bubble (originally), then they would be on the edge of the bubble. When the original proto-dimension collapsed into several fragments, the one huge bubble turned into a cluster of smaller bubbles sticking together, but the 'artefacts' were still at the outskirts of the original proto-dimension. So are you saying that the artefacts have not moved...that they hold fixed positions in the warp and are only tied to the edges of the proto-dimensional fragments? Actually, what if the proto-dimensional fragments are not tied to the artefacts, but are still cordoned within the field they generate. This would allow the fragments to move around...which is something that has been part of the whole proto-diemnsion concept almost from the beginning. The different proto-dimensional fragments can almost be thought of like tectonic plates on the earth. Many scientis beleive the far back in Earth's history, there was one large land mass called Pangea. Over time the techtonic plates have called the land masses to seperate and colide spreading them over the face of the globe. There are still of course bound to the surface of the globe and can not drift beyond this. In our example, we of course do not have the boundaries exerted by the shape of a planet, but we do have the boundaries created by the artefacts. As to how Aoide phases in and out of reality, it may be that the artefacts were knocked out of their original positions by the rupturing of the original proto-dimension. They eventuall stabilized and created a new cordon in which the remans of the proto-dimension move around. One of the artefacts may have been thrown into the matterium by the rupture. It could be at the extent of its oscilation, the proto-dimension which contained the Aoideans and the planet Aoide merges back with the matterium. It is of course half in and half out of the materium, so during its rotation, the planet swings out of our reality appearing to phase out, but never actually leaving its proto-dimension. The way to think about it is like a buuble stuck to another bubble. It is not totaly part of the larger bubble, yet not fully seperate either. There could be other smaller pieces of the proto-dimension attached in a simmilar manner to the imprium, thus causing all of the different sized warp rifts in the Heart of the Sector.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 6, 2004 23:14:25 GMT -5
Why contain then when you can destroy them? Methinks that Destecado has the right of it. There must have been some other reason otherwise they would have turned them into one great big Warp-twinkie. Pretty picture, BTW. I agree with the Pre-Fall version. The only thing that I don't like about the post-Fall version is the fact that the fragments overlap in terms of 'real space'. While they might be contiguous in terms of flying from one 'bubble' to another when inside the proto-dimension, spatially the 'borders' of one fragment may be distinct and light years from another...? Perhaps treat it like oil on water, or something like that? The 'Fall shockwave' might have introduced some angular momentum into the fractured proto-dimension (now realms) such that the artefacts were given different rotational velocities? I'm sold. *thwack* I did tell you that bright colour gives me a migraine didn't I? Thought so. *big thwack* A good point, but would it not be 'better' of all the artefacts were in the matterium? Or then again, perhaps not? Perhaps there is a 'key artefact'? Might make sense... That and the fact that they are going deeper and shallower in the warp... There should still be a 'barrier' between the warp and real space to rpevent natural preciptation. (See Space Hulk thread in Meta.) <grumble> Maybe... <adopts Mutley mutter!> And a referene to the fact that the C'tan seek to cut off the warp (i.e. invalidate Spirit) and the Old Ones wish to attack on Matter... Yep, kind of the point. A quote from Traveller: The New Era (paraphrased): "They say no battle plan survives contact with the enemy. Hell! No plan survives contact with reality!" Or, Rule #12 of the "Evil Overlord" Top 100: "One of my advisors will be a five-year old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation." ;D The artefacts are 'sitting' in reality and (perhaps; see above) sitting in the warp. From Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "Space is big. Really big. You thought that a trip to the local store was a long way, but that's peanuts compared to space..." Maybe working with a spectrum of activity is the best and integrate with CELS' comments. Perhaps think of them as a 'disc' in the warp which is bobbing on the surface (or deeper)? Occasionally the fragments pops out, but occasionally it is deeper in the warp... but ultimately it is still attched to the fragment? It's really not that complex. In simple form - since I believe you know the various game systems involved - the Old Ones were Grandfather, the Old Slann are the Droyne. In many ways part of the 'gift' of the Old Ones is that they 'transcend' physical reality, becoming roughly analogous to the Oracles. 40k-ifying it means that you offer a restriction, in which case they sacrifice Matter, just as the C'tan have no access to Spirit (i.e. the Spheres in both cases). Plagerism at it's simplest! ;D There is enough time, after all. One has to question what the effects of this are, but you have suggested some with the Aoideans. Separate consensual realities, perhaps? Freaky. Kind of like a Horizon realm... I disagree strongly with the Cork Approach. I can suspend disbelief with the proto-dimensional fragments, but not with ships. I'm stopping there... Need to be up in 6 hours and cannot get to sleep unless I've read a book and watched a DVD for some reason...
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Post by CELS on Dec 11, 2004 8:32:17 GMT -5
Not all of them would be destroyed upon the impact creating a warp rift. Some may be stuck half way in and out of the matterium (slowly sliding into the matterium). What looks like a warp rift may actually be a pocket dimension. I can't help it, but I really dislike the sound of 'pocket dimension', as it makes the fragment sound fantastically mysterious. Like Dimension X from Ninja Mutant Teenage Turtles Still, I get your point, and it sounds interesting. The question, of course, is how this fragment can maintain its own seperate physical laws if the energies that kept it in the warp had been broken. Where does its physical laws come from, so to speak, if it's not connected to one of the active artefacts? It can either be the Matterium's physical laws, or a warp-twisted version of these. I thought that was pretty clear by now. It's the classic solution, really, when fighting a seemingly invincible enemy. They did it to contain the Necrons. The Necron ships are extremely powerful things. Their tomb ships put even Adeptus Astartes battle barges to shame, and they're only just awakening. Imagine the fleets the Necrons used to have patrolling their empire. So, instead of wasting an absurd amount of resources to utterly destroy a tombworld, the Old Ones came up with the brilliant idea of just surrounding it with seven artefacts and wrapping up the tombworld for a to-go order It sounds like what I had in mind. Excellent I have no problem with this, actually Definitely. It could also be that the damage caused by the rupture makes one of the artefacts 'rise' to the matterium once in a while. Sort of like an old lamp, flashing on and off Brilliant! I think we could have both this and seperated fragments, as you suggest above. Why contain then when you can destroy them? Just to repeat my point above; I imagine that it would take a lot of resources to destroy all the tombworlds in the galaxy, so the Old Ones found out a way to contain them. Once contained, the tomb worlds could be destroyed one by one, or even all at once if they could find some kind of Necron-virus. Fair enough point. I'm open for both, really. Ugh.. personally, I really, really dislike the concept of 'key artefacts'. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're covered by the Evil Overlord rules As for having the artefacts in the matterium... I dunno, I kinda fell in love with the idea of them dropping in and out of warp, and having a few of them blasted into the matterium to form marvellous and mysterious ruins in space. Agreed. Of course, this barrier is sometimes broken, which is why space hulks pop up from time to time. I like this description. I so have to see that movie. I can't discuss the design of a Cadian helmet without it being brought up Been there. I also had about a year when I needed to have an obscenely large meal to go to sleep. Which is why you and I often had the chance to talk till the sun came up, I suppose
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