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Post by Destecado on Nov 15, 2004 12:55:06 GMT -5
Hmmm....I originally had the sacrifice of the Hosok occur because of the influx of humans into the Sector...or at least into the system that held the Hosok worlds. The world was bombed by the Imperium in an attempt to destroy the remaining vestiges of the culture. This was when the Hosok came to the realization that they must go through with the ritual (suicide).
Based on your above post, it calls into doubt when the Hosok actually died out in relation to the ascent of the Aoideans. I've started another thread in which we can discuss the relationship between the two cultures leading up to their eventual divurgence (scism).
Great. As I said above, I've started an new thread that will allow us to work on ideas that concern both races, while the threads about the individual races will allow us to work out the particulars of where their cultures differ.
I thought that the Aoideans weren't contemporaries of the Old Ones. The way that I had devised the Old One containment system working is as follows:
The idea was to capture a small portion of the material world (in this case a Necron Tomb World) and transport it into the warp. There was no warp drive yet built that could create a warp field large enough for an entire planet to jump into the warp. Build a warp gate large enough to push a planet through was also not viable.
1. The cost of its construction would be astronomical. 2. such a large artifact would be an easy target.
The Olds Ones instead used the natural nstability of warp energy in the material world to accomplish their goal. They wove a field between roughly a dozen ships within the warp. The ships would transition back into the material world with this "net" in tow at specifically proscribed point around the Tomb World.
The Tomb world would be caught within this net. The ships would then release the field and let the natural instability of the "warp matter" draw it back into the warp. By their calculations, anything trapped within this warp net should also be drawn into the warp as well.
In this manner, the Tomb World as well as an area of space sever AUs (Astronomical Units) in size was drawn into the warp. the original though had not been to contain the Necrons so much as allow the warp to disipate them down to their constituent particles.
It was theorized that the entropy of the warp would quickly disipate the small chunk of the materium drawn into it. The reality instead began to grow as it drew in energy from the warp surrounding it. eventually, it fractured into about 7-8 large fragments and a multitude of smaller ones.
While many of the smaller fragments did in deed disapate, the large ones, found an internal balance an became internally stable. The Necron tomb World was still lodged in one of these large fragments...it did not disipate. The Old Ones abandoned the experiment as a failure.
My theory is that the Aoideans might have developed in on the other large fragments. They may have been entirely ignorant of the Necrons. In my original concept the Aoideans might have reached a level of complexity within their proto-dimension and maybe even become aware of the other proto-dimensions around them.
They would have also known that their reality was on a collision course with the material world. It was my thought that the cataclysm of the two realities colliding destroyed their world and the proto-dimension and caused massive destruction in the material world.
Though the destruction destroyed the world, there were Aoideans who possessed sufficient psychic power to exist without physical forms. They were able to harness the energies of the destruction of their proto-dimension in order to create a star system within the material world.
They had survived the cataclysm and were now working to re-establish the Aoidean people. These individuals might be constued with the Aoidean "gods" although they are nothing more then very powerful spirits of long dead Aoideans. If you were looking to have Aoideans with the power level of a Deamon Prince, it may be these few individuals.
From here the Aoideans would have developed much as you have described. The Aoidean "gods" (Original Aoideans that survived the destruction of the proto-dimension) would be able to manifest within the material world, but would suffer the same instability as other warp entities. They would also be able to see into the other proto-dimensions. At this time they may have become aware of the Necrons and the danger they posed. They may have appointed themselves guardians (or jailers) of the Necron Tomb World.
Eventually the "new" Aoidean culture would have achieved a level of psychic developement where they could make the transition to being pure spirit and leaving their bodies behind. This would have been the time that the Aoideans commited mass suicide.
There of course were those that did not go along with this (the Hosok). It may be that the original Aoideans feared what the Hosok would do with their technology, worried that another race might find their homeworld and either use their technology or some how figure out the secrets of their race. To prevent this they pulled the world back into the warp through the warp rift and then sealed the rift.
Perhaps they moved the world to one of the other proto-dimensions or maybe it exists as a free floating planetoid within the warp...what war your thoughts?
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Post by CELS on Nov 19, 2004 12:13:48 GMT -5
Based on your above post, it calls into doubt when the Hosok actually died out in relation to the ascent of the Aoideans. I've started another thread in which we can discuss the relationship between the two cultures leading up to their eventual divurgence (scism). It would be cool if the Hosok died long before the humans came. Then the Hosok buildings would be mysterious ruins from an unknown race, and no one would have a clue about the ghosts that appeared here and there. If the humans had just killed them, a human meeting a Hosok ghost would be like "Hey, didn't I kill you last week?" They weren't. I'm thinking they're 100,000 years old. It's just that the homeworld of the Aoideans was put away by the Old Ones, and then the Aoideans came to life many million years later. Ok, maybe it is a bit far fetched to have the Old Ones predict that this race would rise many million years later and then guard the Necron tombs... Hmmm, I don't like the sound of that, I'm afraid. A "net" woven between ships... To me, it seems better to have built a dozen huge machines in the material realm, which somehow started a huge warp storm that swallowed a large area of space and then disappeared. Sort of like opening the Maelstrom and then closing it again. But then, I've always (at least for a while) thought that it would be better to put the Necrons in a shallow part of the warp than an alternate dimension. This I can agree with, mostly. Of course, one might ask why they considered it a failure. Even if it didn't disipate, it was gone, at least. If they'd done this to all the tomb worlds, the Necrons wouldn't really have been a problem. Not to mention the C'tan. Perhaps it would be better if the worlds shifted in and out of the material realm every few millennia (or even more seldom?) I don't understand this about the Aoidean "gods" creating a new star system, and starting a new civilisation. This seems fantastically difficult. Actually, my current idea is that all Aoideans in the warp are remnants from before the cataclysm, and that they have no hope of rebuilding their civilisation, merely living on in the warp. But just to see if I've got it right... Are you suggesting that- 1) The Aoidean homeworld in their proto-dimension is destroyed because of the instability of their dimension 2) Some Aoideans survive this disaster, create a new homeworld in the material realm 3) The new Aoidean civilisation is like the old one, but reaches new levels of psychic awareness and eventually commits mass suicide to live on in the warp Is this right?
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Post by Destecado on Nov 19, 2004 13:51:40 GMT -5
It would be cool if the Hosok died long before the humans came. Ok, then we need to figure out wy they died out. 100k might be a little too long. could it be that the culture was destroyed by the fall of the eldar? It was after all powerful enough to rip a gigantic hole in reality. It probably sent a psychic shockwave across the galaxy. This might have been comperable to a psychic tidal wave rushing across the near warp. It could be that the psy sensative Aoideans knew that such a wave could very well kill or destroy those them (the psy-sentative ones at least). It would also be possible that the psychic tidal wave would wash over into the real world near them as well...they're planet is after all dangerously near a warp rift. By giving up their physical forms and diving deep into the warp, the psy-active Aoideans hoped to dive under the wave and thereby evade its destructive force. Example: When trying to get beyond the surf line, you need to get under the wave to avoid the greater amount of its energy which is trying to push you back towards shore. It would have taken the warp wave perhaps a generation to reach the Aoidean home world, since it is so far from the eye of Terror, so they had time to prepare. Maybe they sealed the rift at this time in an attempt to save those that still remained on their worlds....does this sound like a possibility? Ok, maybe it is a bit far fetched to have the Old Ones predict that this race would rise many million years later and then guard the Necron tombs... I still don't think that the Old Ones should have had any direct hand in their creation or evolution. Granted, the proto-dimensional fragments were created by the Old Ones experiment, but from there natural evolution would have taken place...planets could have formed and new cultures arissen. Hmmm, I don't like the sound of that, I'm afraid. A "net" woven between ships... To me, it seems better to have built a dozen huge machines in the material realm. Later experiments would have attempted to send them directly to the warp, rather than moving them in this fashion. What you are describing is pretty much what a D-Cannon does. The foundations of the D-Cannon may have started with this experiment This technology was not perfeccted by the Old Ones...unless you believe that it was the Old Ones that gave the Eldar the Talismans of Vaul, which are for the most part very large D-Cannons (if memory serves). The other reason that I see it being ships deployed from the warp, who create a web of energy there and the transition back into real space at specific locations around the Tomb World is one for mobility and two Stealth. The idea was to make a technology that would allow them to descend around a Tomb World unseen deploy their web and have the tomb World disappear into the warp. Trying to setup large devices around a tomb world would have brought resistance from the Necrons. They could have communicated with other tomb worlds to let them know of the attack. Also what if one of the devices was damaged during setup by a Necron attack? The system would take time to power up, before it could be activated. In that time the entire system would be vulnerable. Remember, this is not a finished piece of technology, but an experiment. If you look at weapons systems deployed by the worlds armies of today, what works in the lab, does not always work as expected in the field. Also, newer technology often replaces original prototypes. This I can agree with, mostly. Of course, one might ask why they considered it a failure. The trade off is that there were all these small proto-dimensions floating around close to our own reality, not to mention the large warp rift left behind. This may have worked for a handful of Tomb Worlds, but what would have been the effect on the galaxy of so many warp rifts being created. Also what would be the possible effects of the proto-dimensions slamming back into our own relaity? would they cause more damage than the necrons ever could? The experiment was considered a failure, because it did not accomplish the Old Ones original goals and because seemed to create more problems than it solved. A D-cannon is a much better way of sending objects from the materrium to the warp...if you want them broken up. I creates a small aperature through which the matter streams into the warp. the device they had created, rather than enveloping the Tomb World in a bubble and pinching it off from reality instead left a large tear in the fabric of reality (the warp rift). Perhaps it would be better if the worlds shifted in and out of the material realm every few millennia (or even more seldom?) Do you mean its orbit made it pass through the edges of the warp rift or that the world phases in and out of the materium...sort of like a world sized Brigadoon? I don't understand this about the Aoidean "gods" creating a new star system, and starting a new civilisation. Are you suggesting that- 1) The Aoidean homeworld in their proto-dimension is destroyed because of the instability of their dimension 2) Some Aoideans survive this disaster, create a new homeworld in the material realm 3) The new Aoidean civilisation is like the old one, but reaches new levels of psychic awareness and eventually commits mass suicide to live on in the warp Is this right? For the most part yes. I was thinking that it might be interesting to have the original race that is the Aiodeans develope within one of the proto-dimensions. Since the proto-dimensions are made up of a substantial portion of matter originally taken from the materium, the natural laws that govern them are for the most part similar to our own...of course as time passes and they are seperated from the matterium, slight variations could occur. In the proto-dimensions the natural order would continue to occur, stars would form, then worlds eventually even plants and animals might develope. The best way to think of the proto-dimensions would be like small green houses of reality in the warp. It may be by studying theis fragments that the Old Ones came up with the founding principles that lead to the creation of the Warhammer Fantasy universe...which I've heard GW describe as a pocket reality existing somewhere within the 40k Universe. Hmm...Here's a though, what if the race that is the Aoideans grew and developed within this proto-dimension, the cataclysm that they faced was the crashing of their pocket reality into the greater reality of the matterium. Those that were psychically active ritually sacrificed themselves to avoid ultimate destruction and escaped into the warp. Of course they had to abandon all of those that were not psycically active or who were not strong enough to sustain themselves. This might have left them with what is termed as survivors guilt. When the two realities finally colided, there was a cataclismich explosion that would have destroyed most of the stars and planets in the area around its epicenter...we are talking an explsion greater than a super nova...almost like a mini big bang. This may have enlarged the already existing warp rift...or depending on how much time had elapsed since the Old Ones experiment, may have reopened the previously sealed rift. There was a great amount of energy floating around after the explosion and with the open rift, the (warp entity) Aoideans were able to create a world similar to the one they had left behind as well as a system (I thought this would be a good compromise for your wish to make the homeworld a kind of damon style world, that conforms to the wishes of its master). This may have been seen as their act of atonement for leaving the countless other Aoideans behind to die. Weilding such forces used up considerable amounts of energy...but they had remade their world. Now my original idea was to have the race that grew up on the planet be a rebirth of the Aoidean culture...a second chance if you will, given by those that had become war entities during the cataclysm. If you prefer, maybe the culture that emerged on the world was what became known as the hosok, with the original Aoideans never re-establishing themselves. what are your thoughts?
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Post by CELS on Nov 29, 2004 16:23:03 GMT -5
Ok, then we need to figure out wy they died out. 100k might be a little too long. Why? I just think that it would be nice to break the trend of so many races being either 10-50k years old, or 100 million years old. It ripped a gigantic hole in reality, but that was in the heart of the Eldar empire. The concentration of Eldar worlds in these parts was probably very low at this time. Hmm... but the warp is a fickle thing, and inspired by chaos theory, we could say that the fall of the Aoideans was at least indirectly connected with the psychic shockwave from the Fall. What exactly is a psychic tidalwave? As I see it, it would be easier to just have the shockwave in the warp cause the warp rift to expand. Hmm, yes, that's a good way of looking at it. It sounds too awesome, I think. I personally see this warp rift as rather huge after it consumed their world. I don't want to make them out to be demi-gods. I agree. Strike that. Let's say that the this experiment contributed to the development of the D-cannon. We don't want to be too self-absorbed and make the Anargo sector the center of the universe It's a matter of imagery more than anything else. I just preferred the image of huge spacestations similar to Blackstone Fortresses, towed into position by warp-capable ships and then unleashed, rather than the experiment weapons being mounted on cruisers and battleships. So, basically, we agree on this on as well. Indeed. Were the Great Ones very aware of the dangers of the warp at that time? Is it likely that they feared a major chaos corruption across the galaxy? Either would be cool, I think, but I did mean the latter. What do you think? Well, it would be interesting to have them develope in the proto-dimensions. And by proto-dimensions, we're talking about a small 'bubble' in the warp which is actually a tiny piece of the matterium? In other words, a sort of warp rift phenomenon, like the Eye of Terror has a sort of proto-dimension? But to be perfectly honest, I personally prefer the idea that they grew up close to a warp rift, but not in it, and that the disaster happened when the warp rift expanded and consumed their world. Their civilisation was not wiped out by war or crashing asteroids, but by the invading warp space and its inhabitants. Basically, living on their homeworld (Aoide) after the warp rift expanded, would be a lot like riding a ship in the warp without a Geller field. I'm 100% sure that they have moved away from this setting, if they ever had it. I appreciate the attempted compromise, but I really insist that we don't make them too powerful. I'm the kind of guy who's annoyed when 'unofficial' aliens have tremendous powers like this. Inwardly, I'll shout "Well, if they're so bloody great, how come we've never heard of the buggers!?" Ok, here's an attempt at finding a compromise to your compromise What if... Aoide was destroyed by an expanding warp rift catastrophe following the Fall of the Eldar and turned into a chaotic nightmare of a world. (The warp rift was a consequence of the Heart of Anargo) Only a few Aoideans survived by ascending to the warp. When the warp rift stabilised, these warp-Aoideans came back to their homeworld - now in the warp - and started a new civilisation. Now, in the matterium, they wouldn't be able to do this, but because this world was within a warp rift, they were able to use their powers to create a new civilisation, vaguely similar to the original one. This would only work if the Hosok were created during the mass-suicide, just after the Fall of the Eldar, though... What do you think? Give me your honest opinion, I don't like to step on any toes or force my idea through.
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Post by Destecado on Nov 29, 2004 18:00:34 GMT -5
It ripped a gigantic hole in reality, but that was in the heart of the Eldar empire. The concentration of Eldar worlds in these parts was probably very low at this time. Hmm... but the warp is a fickle thing, and inspired by chaos theory, we could say that the fall of the Aoideans was at least indirectly connected with the psychic shockwave from the Fall. Actually, what I was thinking is that the shockwave actually caused the warp rift to close. It expanded, but after the shockwave passed it collapsed back in upon itself and closed. What exactly is a psychic tidalwave? As I see it, it would be easier to just have the shockwave in the warp cause the warp rift to expand. I was just using the fluidic imagery that is currently used to explain the warp (i.e. warp tides and eddies). It pretty much means a shockwave in the warp. It sounds too awesome, I think. I personally see this warp rift as rather huge after it consumed their world. I don't want to make them out to be demi-gods. You have made reference to older Aoideans having power levels on par to greater demons. Creating worlds seems to be well within that power level. I'm also not talking about the (ascended) Aoideans venturing outside of the warp rift. They still would have the same difficulties as greater deamons (other warp entities) manifesting in the matterium. The warp rift served as a window into the matterium. I see the area of the matterium near the warp rift as being slightly maleable (like the edges of an open wound, where the flesh once taught now has a little give to it). The Aoideans could manipulate the slight maliability in the matterium in order to create the sun. When I'm talking about the creation proccess, I'm refering to having the gasses coaless and form an accretion disk (finally seperating out into a star and its planets). This would not have been a fast process, but would have taken hundreds upon thousands of years. eventually the planet would have formed. OR What if they drew the gas and dust from the matterium into the warp rift and created the star system and planets there and then kind of shoved it out of the rift back into the Matterium. OR The system could have come into existance in the normal manner and once life forms began to develope, they began to meddle with them through their minds...eventually leading them to proto-sentience. Whatever the method of creation, the (warp entity) Aoideans would have been cut off from the system and its people by the closing of the warp rift at the time of the fall of the eldar. The culture was now left to their own devices, their contact with their gods or guardian angles all but severed. Maybe this is what lead to the divergence in the culture where the Hosok came about. Let's say that the this experiment contributed to the development of the D-cannon. We don't want to be too self-absorbed and make the Anargo sector the center of the universe Fair enough. It's a matter of imagery more than anything else. I just preferred the image of huge spacestations similar to Blackstone Fortresses, towed into position by warp-capable ships and then unleashed, rather than the experiment weapons being mounted on cruisers and battleships. I was thinking about ships the size of a blackstone fortress (actually, I've never heard a description of an Old Ones ship). It could have been as big as a small moon perhaps. Being an Old One's vessel, it probably was warp capable...Scratch that. Probably the production model would have warp engines, but since these were proto types, why go through the added time and expense of adding engines. Hmmm...maybe these artifacts are still in the warp in the Heart of the Sector. Indeed. Were the Great Ones very aware of the dangers of the warp at that time? Is it likely that they feared a major chaos corruption across the galaxy? More likely they were afraid of reality falling apart at the seams. The more holes you punch in something, the less structural integrity it will have. Either would be cool, I think, but I did mean the latter. What do you think? I think it all comes down to how we define the system as being created. If the planet was created in the rift and then pushed into our reality by the Aoideans, then phasing in and out seems a possibility. Some exotic matter from the warp could have accidently been included in the creation process, so every once in a while, the planet would phase into the warp and then back into our reality. What effects do you see this phasing as having on the planet? How long do you think it would be out of sink with reality? Is this doable within the 40k Universe? Well, it would be interesting to have them develope in the proto-dimensions. And by proto-dimensions, we're talking about a small 'bubble' in the warp which is actually a tiny piece of the matterium? In other words, a sort of warp rift phenomenon, like the Eye of Terror has a sort of proto-dimension? The device worked by encepsulating a small piece of the matrium and breaking it off from the rest. Imagine blowing up one of those long thin balloons (like they use to make balloon animals), twisting it and then tying it off in the middle. You could then cut off this tiny piece and cast it away...which is sort of what the original idea was. The inherent instability of the warp should then cause the outer surface of the small ballon pice to destabilize and allow the matter inside to be released into the Warp, thus destroying it. It wouldbe like taking the small piece of balloon and placing it near an open flame or anythin else which would degrade the vynil of the balloon. eventually it will pop and release the air inside. Warp Rifts and The Eye of Terror are more like the other end of the balloon from which the little piece was detatched. If you do not seal the other end of the balloon when you cut off the small piece, air (matter) will escape from it. What occured though is that the proto-dimension began to accumulate additional matter from the surrounding warp and expanded. Eventually it reached a point instability and exploded. Rather than disipating into the warp though, this explosion left fragments behind, which found their own internal stability. In the case of the matterium, matter escapes through the eye of terror into the warp. this is why there are areas of stability within the warp, because the matter streaming out abides by the concentual laws of the materium. Of course the Universe does not deflate like the ballooon, because as there is matter rushing out into the warp from the materium, there is matter from the warp rushing into the materium, trying to find a balance. I hope this explanation is clear. I can try to explain it a different way if it is not. But to be perfectly honest, I personally prefer the idea that they grew up close to a warp rift, but not in it, and that the disaster happened when the warp rift expanded and consumed their world. Their civilisation was not wiped out by war or crashing asteroids, but by the invading warp space and its inhabitants. Basically, living on their homeworld (Aoide) after the warp rift expanded, would be a lot like riding a ship in the warp without a Geller field. But why would this cause the fall of their culture? IIRC they had explored and colonized other worlds. Is that incorrect?
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Post by Destecado on Nov 29, 2004 18:00:51 GMT -5
I appreciate the attempted compromise, but I really insist that we don't make them too powerful. I'm the kind of guy who's annoyed when 'unofficial' aliens have tremendous powers like this. Inwardly, I'll shout "Well, if they're so bloody great, how come we've never heard of the buggers!?" They really aren't over powered. They still can't act directly in the Matterium (well no more so than say a greater daemon). The have the advantage of a window (the Warp Rift) into the Materium from which to operate. Once this seals, they are pretty much cut off from the matterium...other than being summoned by someone on this side. What if... Aoide was destroyed by an expanding warp rift catastrophe following the Fall of the Eldar and turned into a chaotic nightmare of a world. (The warp rift was a consequence of the Heart of Anargo) Only a few Aoideans survived by ascending to the warp. When the warp rift stabilised, these warp-Aoideans came back to their homeworld - now in the warp - and started a new civilisation. Now, in the matterium, they wouldn't be able to do this, but because this world was within a warp rift, they were able to use their powers to create a new civilisation, vaguely similar to the original one. I have no problem with the Fall of the eldar causing the rift to expand and draw the homeworld into the warp. I think warp rift should now be sealed and the world is now stuck in the warp. This would only work if the Hosok were created during the mass-suicide, just after the Fall of the Eldar, though...What do you think? Give me your honest opinion, I don't like to step on any toes or force my idea through. Would the Hosok be the new race created or would they be the ones left behind when the homeworld was sucked into the warp?
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Post by CELS on Nov 30, 2004 7:55:50 GMT -5
Ok, let's see...
The Old Ones built twelve great fortresses which emmitted a gigantic field vaguely similar to the Geller field, and used these to pull a small chunk of the Anargo sector into a shallow depth of the warp, creating our 'proto-dimension' and leaving a small warp rift in the heart of Anargo.
The Fall of the Eldar created a huge tidalwave in the warp which disabled the fortresses, creating havoc in the proto-dimension. As the balance between warp and matterium was restored, most of the contents of the proto-dimension came crashing into reality. Some worlds were atomised, some stars went into super nova, a dozen small warp rifts appeared, and entire star systems died and were reborn in only a few millennia.
(Fortunately, most of the fortresses survived the tidalwave, and thus the tombworld is still contained)
Before this happened, some of the Aoideans in the proto-dimension committed mass-suicide to be reborn as warp entities (henceforth warp-Aoideans). The warp-Aoideans looked at the pandemonial remains of their former empire. In between shattered star systems, they found a young race of aliens (henceforth neo-Aoideans), not yet travelling the stars, and shaped them in their own image. The neo-Aoideans came to worship the warp-Aoideans, who in return did what they could to keep orks and humans away.
Aoide, out of interest, is located within one of the tiny warp rifts that still remains in the Anargo sector. All civilisation was wiped out after the Fall, and the planet is now unpopulated, but still visited by the warp-Aoideans.
The Hosok were Aoideans who tried to hitch a ride into the matterium, and though they died from the 'crash', their spirits remain tied to their constructions.
Does this work?
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Post by Destecado on Nov 30, 2004 14:48:15 GMT -5
It sounds good, but I'm not sure if we are beginning to stray over the lines of what Kage had planned for the Heart of the Sector or how he wishes it to be portrayed. I have sent him a PM to see if he can stop by and give us his input on the Aoideans.
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 30, 2004 18:26:00 GMT -5
Destecado pointed me over to the thread, so here I am! He didn't actually say just what it was about this thread that needed addressing, so... I hope you don't mind but since CELS has done what appears to be a synopsis and I have to leave the house to get some food in a very short minute or two, I thought that I would jump in with his post... The Old Ones built twelve great fortresses... On a more personal note, I don't suppose we could make it seven "fortresses" could we? It's a preference thing, but one that I'm not overtly too bothered about since it's just another means of getting the whole "Swords of Wayland" concept into the Anargo sector... Erm, Destecado knows what I'm talking about, honest! Also, I don't suppose we could come up with something that is a tad more interesting than a 'fortress' could we? ...which emmitted a gigantic field vaguely similar to the Geller field, and used these to pull a small chunk of the Anargo sector into a shallow depth of the warp... Minor point here that ties into overall consistency. If we say the above then we must also stipulate that the Geller Field is partially (or entirely) responsible for the warp-matterium transition (i.e. the jump). It's easy to get by this by just saying that an 'initiator event' actually moved... whatever... into the warp and it was this Geller-like field that stabilises the 'proto-dimension'. I would, however, suggest care here. I'm not overtly fond of too much emphasis being placed on the Geller Field is a 'reality stabiliser' even though I do (well, now anyway!) agree that it operates as such... ...creating our 'proto-dimension' and leaving a small warp rift in the heart of Anargo. Was not the idea to have several warp rifts? Or, rather, several spatially disparate matterium rifts that may or may not be related to a single 'rift' in a higher dimension... The Fall of the Eldar created a huge tidalwave in the warp which disabled the fortresses, creating havoc in the proto-dimension. I've never been overtly fond of the 'tidal wave' approach, but it is what the 'fluff' says... <sigh> As the balance between warp and matterium was restored, most of the contents of the proto-dimension came crashing into reality. Some worlds were atomised, some stars went into super nova, a dozen small warp rifts appeared, and entire star systems died and were reborn in only a few millennia. Apart from the last bit (star systems dying and being reborn in millennia) because of the imagery, I rather like the explanation for the various stellar phenomenon in the Anargo sector... excellent! Before this happened, some of the Aoideans in the proto-dimension committed mass-suicide to be reborn as warp entities... Okaaay... In between shattered star systems, they found a young race of aliens (henceforth neo-Aoideans), not yet travelling the stars, and shaped them in their own image. Not overtly fond of this particular idea, but there we go. Darn, I'm going to have to read back unless someone is nice enough to post the specific questions and points that need addressing... or even a summary! (Sorry, being lazy. Working 10 hour days, 6 day weeks, etc...)
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Post by CELS on Dec 1, 2004 8:22:06 GMT -5
Destecado pointed me over to the thread, so here I am! He didn't actually say just what it was about this thread that needed addressing, so... I hope you don't mind but since CELS has done what appears to be a synopsis and I have to leave the house to get some food in a very short minute or two, I thought that I would jump in with his post... Actually, it's what I was hoping you'd do, since the last few pages contain mostly brainstorming and searching for a compromise between Destecado's ideas and my own. As for what we wanted you to say... anything that comes to mind, really Fine by me. I just wanted a number that isn't too cliché. Feel free The reason I went for fortress was obviously the blackstone fortresses. And I wanted to make them sound like something big, solid and powerful. But I am open to suggestions. Well, for now, let's just call it an energy field, and leave out comparisons to the Geller-field. But yes, I did want the field to stabilise the 'proto-dimension', and not to actually be responsible for the transition. As I say above, let's not mention the Geller-field at all. I just wanted to explain the concept so you guys would understand it. I must admit that I have no idea, since I only occassionally checked out the Heart of Anargo thread when it was active. Of course, we do have several warp rifts after the Fall (when things went boom), so there shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't know, actually Erm, yeah, the last bit was a bit far fetched, maybe The idea of mass-suicide is as old as the idea about the Aoideans themselves, so this shouldn't be news to you. Of course, there is the chance that you forgot about it. Constructive criticism is much appreciated What exactly gets your goat (hope I used the expression correctly), and what can be done about it, if anything? Call that an excuse? (Extremely tongue-in-cheek!) No point in reading back, I think. Once we figure out the minor problems with my little synopsis, it should be easy enough to write a more detailed history and go from there.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 1, 2004 21:38:05 GMT -5
Actually, it's what I was hoping you'd do... Great! It's amazing that laziness can sometimes work out. Fine by me. I just wanted a number that isn't too cliché. <grin> I'm sure that someone can think of a reason that any number might be cliche! As I said, I'm not overtly bothered, but when we originally talked about the number of 'stones' for the Heart we normally talked about seven. Just thought that I would own up and give the reason for that! Feel free Damn... Erm... Well, 'fortress' is consistent with the violent/wargame (<snicker> ) imagery of the 40k universe. While it might give an ominous feel to it, perhaps we could do that more in description and 'colour text'? "...gargantuan structures..." or "...structures that dwarfed even the Imperial Palace on Terra..." or whatever? Indeed, would each 'structure' have to be singular, or could it be a composite thing? Perhaps it might even hark to the basic form of the Cadian Pylon in some way? Well, for now, let's just call it an energy field, and leave out comparisons to the Geller-field. Hokay. The idea of mass-suicide is as old as the idea about the Aoideans themselves, so this shouldn't be news to you. Of course, there is the chance that you forgot about it. It was more the drawn out 'okaaaay' where you're thinking about the entire thing. Don't worry about it! Constructive criticism is much appreciated What exactly gets your goat (hope I used the expression correctly), and what can be done about it, if anything? Yes, you used the expression correctly. And it's just the idea that the Aoideans went around and got the 'neo-Aoideans' (or whatever). I just find it to be a bit... over-done. Maybe not in 40k but elsewhere. Is there any other alternatives?
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Post by CELS on Dec 2, 2004 8:13:44 GMT -5
<grin> I'm sure that someone can think of a reason that any number might be cliche! As I said, I'm not overtly bothered, but when we originally talked about the number of 'stones' for the Heart we normally talked about seven. Just thought that I would own up and give the reason for that! Seven it is! ;D So what do we call them? What are they, exactly? Space stations, warp stations, what? But the Cadian pylon was of C'tan origin, was it not? Maybe each 'structure' could have seven pylons? Help me out here, Destecado - I'm holding the fort all by myself! Well, there's always the original idea, without any other aliens, where the Aoideans mostly get their powers from humans and from consuming other warp entities. As for the idea of 'neo-Aoideans' being a bit over-done, I can't really say I understand. I don't recall reading anything similar. But then, I'm no sci-fi expert.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 2, 2004 10:55:41 GMT -5
Sorry, I've been working on other projects around the board and neglected this thread. A though occured to me about the larger fragments of the proto-dimension still floating in the near warp. We pretty much came to the agreement IIRC that there were six or seven of these large fragments.
Maybe we have been looking at what the Old Ones were trying to accomplish here in the completely wrong light. Instead of being an experiment to Imprison the Necrons or to disperse them into the warp, what if it was an attempt to create a controlled enviroment in order to study the Necrons?
Trying to study a Necron is difficult, because they usually phase out, but if you were to capture a Tomb World, you could perhaps study their technology and gain a better understanding of your enemy.
Of course any long term investigation would need to be done in an enviroemnt where you did not need to woory about Necron reinforcements showing up. The Olds Ones hatched a plot to steal a Tomb World.
This could be similar to efforts during World War II by the allies to capture a working Enigma Machine (German Encryption Machine) or like the movie the Hunt for Red October, where the U.S. is trying to devise a plot to steal the Red October in order to be able to study it Caterpillar Drive.
Internal stresses may have torn it apart or the Old Ones may have left it to be torn apart by the warp after they were done studying it. It could also be that it occured so late in the war that the project was abandoned when the Old Ones fled. This may help to explain why the artifacts (fortresses) were still there.
Whatever the case, when the proto-dimension finally gave way and ruptured, the energy given off would have been spread over a great distance. The artifacts had been created to contain and stabilize the proto-dimension, as it ruptured, perhaps each retained a protion of the proto-dimension within its field of stability...hence the larger fragments came about.
What if the "fortresses" are at the hearts of these larger fragments. This is not to say that each fragment is dominated by a hulking fortresses towering from irs center. It goes more along the lines of the swords of wayland concept of the weapons changing and taking on new appearances from how they originally looked.
One of the artifacts could be at the center of a moon or planet. It may be that the planet formed around it through a process of accretion. Another "fortress" could dominate the entire fragment.
It could be like the concept for a world that I had described in the fantasy thread (in the World Building Forum) where the world is made up of enormous chambers. One could travel between these chambers (realms) by moving up or down through the world.
It could be that the fortress that exists at the center of a world is actually inside of the planet Aoide. It may be why it is such a powerful locus for the Aoideans. It may also help to explain why the Aoideans have such an affinity for the warp. The field generated by all of the artifacts together is greater than what they can achieve alone.
They are also drawn to each other or have an affinity for each other. A race that grew up on a planet heavily influenced by these artifacts may feel that pull as well.
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Post by Destecado on Dec 3, 2004 11:25:03 GMT -5
A thought is forming in my mind about how we may be able to integrate this idea with a discussion currently going on about space hulks. What if the merging ot the proto-dimensional fragement with our reality did not happen explosively. This sort of goes along with the concept of reality or the matterium being more permeable in interstellar space, away from the depressions(curvature) in space / time cause by plaetary systems and other matter.
If the proto-dimension interfaced with out reality out here, it may have merged with little or no disruption. Since the proto-dimension was composed mostly of matter from our own reality, it would be like the example of two seperate samples of mercury merging together to form one larger sample.
I think I also know what may have caused the proto-dimension to initially break up. The artifacts were there to artificially reinforce or contain the bubble of the materium that the proto-dimension represented. The problem was that unlike the normal materium, there was no internal reinfocement.
The internal reinforcement comes from the existance of sentient creatures that build consentual reality. Of course this would touch on whether or not the Necrons are really souless or able to form consentual reality.
It could be that part of the reasons that cultures and planets began to form in the proto-dimension fragments after the rupture was because these artifacts were attempting to restabilize the reality. As I had indicated earlier, the power of all of the artifacts together was greater than the sum of its parts.
With the rupture and the artifacts scattered to seperate fragments, there would need to arise some other structure to maintain the stability. n this case it may have been the emergence of sentient cultures to build consentual reality within the proto-dimensional fragments.
I'm not sure how intelligent the artifacts will be, but do you feel that they may be smart enough or intuitive enough to come to this conclusion on their own. Are they perhaps machine intelligences created bythe Old Ones? For some reason when I think about this concept, the Monoliths from 2001 A Space Odessy (and 2010 Odessy Two) keep popping into my head.
In the case of the proto-dimesion which Aoide occupied, it made contact with the matterium and was pulled back in. You would have a star system popping into existance in interstellar space (which has its own consequences).
Now let us assume that the artifact lies at the heart of the planet somewhere in its core. These were artifacts that were made to pull an object into the warp and contain it there. It may therefore be trying to return to the warp (giving you your phasing in and out characteristic). Of course on its own it lacks sufficient power to do so...the original experiment took all seven artifacts working together.
Maybe it needs to power up in order to attempt this, so after each attempt the artifact must recharge. this recharging process may be by thermal exchange with the planet, which can take a verylong time...this is why the phasing only occurs periodically.
How does this sound?
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 5, 2004 19:42:22 GMT -5
Sorry, I've been working on other projects around the board and neglected this thread. It's okay... Well all do it. We pretty much came to the agreement IIRC that there were six or seven of these large fragments. That's another one of the reasons that seven 'fortresses' seemed better... one stabilising or relating to the fracture pattern of the original 'thing'. ...what if it was an attempt to create a controlled enviroment in order to study the Necrons? That's another possibility. But what is it that you would suggest is the the thing that truly needs to be understood about them? The Necrons - even the C'tan themselves - are not exactly the most complex race around other than the ph... Oh, you say that next. ...but if you were to capture a Tomb World, you could perhaps study their technology and gain a better understanding of your enemy. Only problem here is is the Necron/C'tan abilities that complex? Great, they teleport and have guns that slowly disintegrate their target... Quite cool concept, but in reality? Internal stresses may have torn it apart or the Old Ones may have left it to be torn apart by the warp after they were done studying it. An interesting idea that bears thinking about. The Old Ones are often represented in far too benign a light to fit in with the rather simplistic ideas of the universe itself (or at least the published representation of that universe). That's "art efacts"! What if the "fortresses" are at the hearts of these larger fragments. That's one of the things that I would prefer was not the case. Rather, the 'fortresses' maintain to stabilise the fields despite their increased fragmentation but it is a rather delicate case. This way the status quo can be intereferred with without having to enter into the fragment itself. Whether it is possible to enter a fragment without switching off the stabilisation field is another matter. It goes more along the lines of the swords of wayland concept of the weapons changing and taking on new appearances from how they originally looked. <grin> You may recall that I personally never went for that idea. I like my swords looking like swords. I'll leave the metaphors to poets on this rather simply matter! It could be that the fortress that exists at the center of a world is actually inside of the planet Aoide. One thing that has always been tacitly assumed by myself was that it was only a singular system that was trapped within the proto-dimension. While this may be a case, the shattering of the proto-dimension could reasonably have taken in other systems, at least in the periphery. E.g. while it might be a 'point' in realspace, the field of effect could encompass other systems thereby creating the stone and in many ways mirroring the concepts of the Eye of Terror. ...away from the depressions(curvature) in space / time cause by plaetary systems and other matter. Don't forget consciousness! I think I also know what may have caused the proto-dimension to initially break up... The internal reinforcement comes from the existance of sentient creatures that build consentual reality. Of course this would touch on whether or not the Necrons are really souless or able to form consentual reality. I'm afraid that, for me, the Necrons are more than able to have an affect on consensual reality. That's kind of the point of them. The question is whether all Necrons have that affect or whether it is only those that are 'living machines' and have consiousness, even if not necessarily a 'soul'. (E.g. similar to the C'tan, with the absence of Spirit defining them in - perhaps - the same manner that the absence of Matter defines the Old Ones (thinking Spheres, there).) In fact, when it comes down to it, the idea of Old Ones as transcended beings is something that I have always preferred... It would not be unreasonable - although quite cliched - to work with the idea that they gave up the spiritual form and, for some reason, their inherent connection with it (as represented through the Sphere of Matter). Of course, that's just using concepts borrowed from another magic system of another game universe, so may not entirely be appropriate... Even though it is quite cool and roughly consistent with the imagery of the 40k universe. I'm not sure how intelligent the artifacts will be... That's the part that I don't like... The idea that sentients may have been caught up following the Shattering is quite interesting. But that the artefacts/'fortresses' began to create life. That's not something that I'm particular fond of. As to the phasing of the artefacts into reality and out of... this was one of the things that was discussed in the Heart thread. The main problem is that it ties into the idea that if you turn off the 'stabilising field' you precipitate into reality. Again, this would be the ultimate 'get out' system and take away some of the danger of the warp... Erm, when it was dangerous that is.
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