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Post by Destecado on Apr 13, 2004 12:30:36 GMT -5
I hate when that happens. So that you do not lose the information, you may want to write it in Word first and the cut and paste it. I usually do that for long posts or when its busy at work so I can always save it and go back to the information.
Kage, I don't understand why you are so against this race being a contemporary of the Old Ones. Their difference of approach I feel gives a new perspective to the entire War in Heaven. the necrontyr have always been portraed as the instigators and cause of the war, yet little is said about the Old Ones heavy handed opproach to dealing with other races.
There has always been debate as to why the Old Ones left after the War in Heaven. Perhaps they finally understood the argument that the Aoideans were trying to make. Of course it took rivers of blood and hundreds of destroyed worlds for the change of heart to occur.
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Post by CELS on Apr 13, 2004 15:13:00 GMT -5
The following was written in Word. I just never have the time or patience to write posts in Word, since everything usually works out fine. When it doesn't though... grrr... Anyway.... For now, I’ll leave it open whether or not the Aoideans are an ancient race or not. Either way, they’re far older than humans. That much as been established. That they should be as old as the C’tan and Old Ones is not critical for me. I’d like it if they were that old, because it would be easier to explain their transition, but… it’s up to Kage, and I’ve presented all my arguments, I’m afraid. Now, having read what you wrote, Destecado, I’m not sure we’re seeing this the same way. The concept that I started out with, was that I’d heard mention of creatures in the warp that weren’t hungry, malicious predators, destroying everything they possibly could. Rather than inventing some sort of “nice” God, or daemon, I wanted a whole race of creatures in the warp. Of course, races don’t naturally occur in the warp, because of its unique conditions, so I came up with the idea of an alien race that ascended to the warp, leaving their mortal bodies behind. Everything above is non-negotiable. This is the very soul of the Aoideans for me, and if this is not appropriate for the project, I’ll not work on them. Others are free to take over though, if they’re interested in developing them another way. That said, it would be very interesting to see the Aoideans bring entire planets into the warp, making them the equivalents of Chaos daemonworlds. Except of course, these wouldn’t have seas of blood, mountains of skulls, jungles of tentacles, etc. Rather, I imagine them to be rather beautiful, yet incomprehensible and dangerous for most humans to look upon. The most harmless phenomenon would be stuff like water running upwards, shadow where light should be, light where shadow should be, floating castles, statues that come to life at night… all kinds of magic stuff. Still, the world would have creations that would drive a man insane to look at, much like the warp itself. As for the philosophy and way of life of the Aoideans… your flower garden metaphor is perfect for describing it. They are waiting to see the galaxy learning what they have learned, and are also trying to help some races or groups within races on their way. That they helped in causing the warp storms that protected the Tau is a brilliant idea. This would be how they work most of the time, by directing ork waaagh!s away from their goal, if that fits their grand purpose, by causing warp storms, etc. In some of the most dire circumstances, the Aoideans might even show themselves in the physical realm, but this takes up so much of their energy that it is far from an everyday occurrence. When they do, they often make sure to appear in a form that is appealing to whomever’s watching. For humans, they’ll appear like angels or saints, since humans would instinctively fear any other creature of the warp. For orks, they’ll probably appear as incarnations of Mork. And so on… This is not to say that they use physical disguises. Think of it as a spell. Like a magic mirror, that shows different things to each person watching. Of course, the Aoideans can choose to appear in their original form, the way they looked when they were a mortal race, or some variation of that. Naturally though, this is rarely a wise thing to do. Humans would take them for chaos daemons, for example. I’m also still intent on having the Aoideans worshipped by non-Imperials and small groups of Imperial sailors. This is because A) The Aoideans need a source of energy, and they would not feed off human emotions like the Chaos gods, nor feed by eating other warp creatures, like most warp predators do, and B) I like the idea of Imperial sailors praying to Saints and Guardian Spirits for safe passage in the warp, when they’re really praying to Aoideans. As you say, the Aoideans will be far from defenseless. In the warp, they must defend their bastions (now planets) from the ever hungry predators of the warp, not to mention the legions of Chaos. Such fighting would be almost unimaginable to humans, with fantastically powerful sorcery at work. When materialized in the physical realm, the Aoideans would still be able to defend themselves and others, as they take their sorcery with them in the same way as Chaos daemons do. Naturally though, their abilities are diminished in the physical realm. As for the Enslavers being an offshoot of the Aoideans…. It’s a very good idea, but it’s kinda scary for me to think that, because it gives me the same feeling as when people write about the Missing Legions, the origin of the Old Ones, the fate of the Primarchs, etc. You can always have theories, but to actually describe something as the truth… Besides, I doubt Kage will allow the Aoideans to be old enough to be the original race of the Enslavers…
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Post by Destecado on Apr 13, 2004 16:55:15 GMT -5
Now, having read what you wrote, Destecado, I’m not sure we’re seeing this the same way. The concept that I started out with, was that I’d heard mention of creatures in the warp that weren’t hungry, malicious predators, destroying everything they possibly could. Rather than inventing some sort of “nice” God, or daemon, I wanted a whole race of creatures in the warp. Of course, races don’t naturally occur in the warp, because of its unique conditions, so I came up with the idea of an alien race that ascended to the warp, leaving their mortal bodies behind. Everything above is non-negotiable. This is the very soul of the Aoideans for me, and if this is not appropriate for the project, I’ll not work on them. Others are free to take over though, if they’re interested in developing them another way. I'm just offering suggestion about how I envision them, not trying to reinvent something you have created. Take the ideas at face value, they are offered in the spirit of colaborating on the idea at hand. You are welcome to incorporate them or ignore them as you wish. That said, it would be very interesting to see the Aoideans bring entire planets into the warp, making them the equivalents of Chaos daemonworlds. Except of course, these wouldn’t have seas of blood, mountains of skulls, jungles of tentacles, etc. Rather, I imagine them to be rather beautiful, yet incomprehensible and dangerous for most humans to look upon. The most harmless phenomenon would be stuff like water running upwards, shadow where light should be, light where shadow should be, floating castles, statues that come to life at night… all kinds of magic stuff. Still, the world would have creations that would drive a man insane to look at, much like the warp itself. Like I said, just some thoughts from my seriously arped imagination. I view the physical form as transitory to these creatures, they could exist as pure mind or spirit or create a physical body as necessary. If you do not wish to make changes to the basic concept of the Aoideans (I know how difficult it can be) then perhaps we can reach a compromise race. I'm happy either way. It would be good to hear Kage's two cents on the matter. As for the philosophy and way of life of the Aoideans… your flower garden metaphor is perfect for describing it. They are waiting to see the galaxy learning what they have learned, and are also trying to help some races or groups within races on their way. That they helped in causing the warp storms that protected the Tau is a brilliant idea. This would be how they work most of the time, by directing ork waaagh!s away from their goal, if that fits their grand purpose, by causing warp storms, etc. In some of the most dire circumstances, the Aoideans might even show themselves in the physical realm, but this takes up so much of their energy that it is far from an everyday occurrence. When they do, they often make sure to appear in a form that is appealing to whomever’s watching. For humans, they’ll appear like angels or saints, since humans would instinctively fear any other creature of the warp. For orks, they’ll probably appear as incarnations of Mork. And so on… This is not to say that they use physical disguises. Think of it as a spell. Like a magic mirror, that shows different things to each person watching. Of course, the Aoideans can choose to appear in their original form, the way they looked when they were a mortal race, or some variation of that. Naturally though, this is rarely a wise thing to do. Humans would take them for chaos daemons, for example. When describing it, I did prefer the idea that it is a psychic emenation rather than an actual physical transformation. They appear as the ideal embodiment of what the preson expects to be talking to. Each race also hears their words in their own language. they strive for peace and unity, but realize that the younger races must take their time to find the answers for themselves. This ability is a reflection of their psychic abilities. Instead of having Psychic powers that do direct damage, they use powers of concealement and misdirection. If you had the mysteries of the universe handed to you on a silver platter, you would not respect them. Such things must be reached through hard work and sacrifice. That is the only way that you will appreciate them. By creating or helping the warp storms around the tau homeworlds, they gave them the time they needed to grow up. I’m also still intent on having the Aoideans worshipped by non-Imperials and small groups of Imperial sailors. This is because A) The Aoideans need a source of energy, and they would not feed off human emotions like the Chaos gods, nor feed by eating other warp creatures, like most warp predators do, and B) I like the idea of Imperial sailors praying to Saints and Guardian Spirits for safe passage in the warp, when they’re really praying to Aoideans. I have no problem with them being whorshiped by these groups, by I don't know about deriving sustinence from them. I imagine them deriving sustinence from the warp its self, or even being beyond the need for such things while in the warp. If in our reality, then yes they would need some form of sustinence. The prayers also act as a beacon. Perhaps this is the faction that thought it was improtant to take a more direct role in stearing others towards their beliefs. This would eliminate their relation to the Enslavers. The idea of their relation to the enslavers was only extending an idea to a logical conclusion....perhaps instead of them being related to the enslavers directly, instead the enslavers became aware of our reality or more totaly aware of it when they made their crossing to the warp. It took them a while, but the enslavers eventually found a way to transition the other way into the reality that the Aoideans came from. This may be what caused the group to schism from the main body. Perhaps they tried to bar the enslavers from entering. this brought them into direct contact with the other races in their ghostly forms. They were seen to be acting directly on the behalf of the races opposed to the enslavers so they began to view them as guardian spirits. With the departure of the Old Ones, these aces who once depended on them or worshiped them as gods, were left in the lurch. It is possible that they replaced them with this splinter faction of the Aoideans. How does that sound?
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Post by CELS on Apr 14, 2004 6:05:14 GMT -5
I'm just offering suggestion about how I envision them, not trying to reinvent something you have created. Take the ideas at face value, they are offered in the spirit of colaborating on the idea at hand. You are welcome to incorporate them or ignore them as you wish. If you thought me agitated because of your comments, don't worry- I wasn't! I was just explaining what was non-negotiable so that we had a common understanding of the "soul" of the Aoideans. If someone has trouble with the concept of a warp-race, that's fine, but that's the whole idea behind the Aoideans. Anyway, I welcome your opinions, whatever they may be Like I said, just some thoughts from my seriously arped imagination. I view the physical form as transitory to these creatures, they could exist as pure mind or spirit or create a physical body as necessary. If you do not wish to make changes to the basic concept of the Aoideans (I know how difficult it can be) then perhaps we can reach a compromise race. I'm happy either way. It would be good to hear Kage's two cents on the matter. He's put off by the talk of contemporaries of Old Ones, apparently... That the Aoideans could create physical bodies is a given, for me, since chaos daemons (who are quite similar to Aoideans, really) can create physical bodies both in the warp and the physical realm. So we agree on that. My point in saying that they no long had physical bodies was just that they weren't "trapped" in their physical bodies like humans. The Aoideans would be able to create physical bodies for themselves, but also to go back to their free form in the warp. When describing it, I did prefer the idea that it is a psychic emenation rather than an actual physical transformation. They appear as the ideal embodiment of what the preson expects to be talking to. Each race also hears their words in their own language. they strive for peace and unity, but realize that the younger races must take their time to find the answers for themselves. This ability is a reflection of their psychic abilities. Instead of having Psychic powers that do direct damage, they use powers of concealement and misdirection. Much like the Jedi! ;D Erm... well, we seem to agree on this as well! If you had the mysteries of the universe handed to you on a silver platter, you would not respect them. Such things must be reached through hard work and sacrifice. That is the only way that you will appreciate them. By creating or helping the warp storms around the tau homeworlds, they gave them the time they needed to grow up. Indeed. Of course, the Aoideans don't really have the mysteries of the universe, from an objective point of view I have no problem with them being whorshiped by these groups, by I don't know about deriving sustinence from them. I imagine them deriving sustinence from the warp its self, or even being beyond the need for such things while in the warp. The problem with this is that the Aoideans would be the only ones capable of deriving sustinence from the warp itself, or -even worse- above the need of sustinence. Since the Chaos gods are dependant on worship and feeding off the creatures in the physical realm, one would think the same should apply to the Aoideans, or that they had an alternative source of energy that the Chaos gods do not want or can not have. That the Aoideans are capable of simply feeding off the warp itself, while Chaos gods are not... would be strange indeed. I don't presume to make the Aoideans superior to the Chaos Gods. If in our reality, then yes they would need some form of sustinence. The prayers also act as a beacon. Perhaps this is the faction that thought it was improtant to take a more direct role in stearing others towards their beliefs. This would eliminate their relation to the Enslavers. There's always room for another faction. Let's not abandon the idea of the Enslaver faction just yet. We'll keep it open I'd say that there are three possibilities 1) The Enslavers are an offshoot of the Aoideans, a dissident faction that decided to abuse their powers. 2) The Enslavers are a seperate race from the Aoideans, but learned to use their powers by watching the Aoideans. 3) There is no relation between Enslavers and Aoideans. I'm fine with all three really... I really would like to keep it open for interpretation though. They were seen to be acting directly on the behalf of the races opposed to the enslavers so they began to view them as guardian spirits. With the departure of the Old Ones, these races who once depended on them or worshiped them as gods, were left in the lurch. It is possible that they replaced them with this splinter faction of the Aoideans. How does that sound? It sounds interesting, but I'd like that the Aoideans are a mostly forgotten race at present. But again, I shall have to read up on the Enslavers...
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 14, 2004 16:30:34 GMT -5
I prefer the image of the Aoideans as non-daemonic, once again reaffirming the presence of "indigenous" lifeforms in the warp, something that is always overlooked in the "daemon-rich" warp that many people wish to see. (Not surprising given the writing in the 'fluff' of the BBB.) I am hoping that fiction, if not specific racial information, will introduce other forms from the sentient to proto-sentient to non-sentient; from the 'peaceful grazers', to the hungry carnivores, to the malicious killers... All of which are possible in a 'natural' ecosystem. They do not have to be daemonic. Forgive my inability to use the scroll function. I'm not sure that I've even been fond of them being able to physically manifest in the material universe except through the use of great 'power' (draining them), no have I been comfortable with them being 'born' in the real world and then making their transfer to the Warp. (That they did this in the past is fine...) ... Although now I've said that, the idea of dust swirling around and creating this transitory form is a really cool image... But not a solid form, of course. Not something that would pass inspection and which, after a time, would disintegrate as the energy drained aweay... Those are the points that are springing to mind at the moment. I'm really sorry for the brevit but, again, I really have less time and since it is increasingly looking like I'm going to have to shift to an administrative roll upon the completion of the 'standardised representation' of Anargo (which sits on my computer at the moment), it is at present all that I'm able to do... Kage
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Post by CELS on Apr 28, 2004 6:08:30 GMT -5
I prefer the image of the Aoideans as non-daemonic, once again reaffirming the presence of "indigenous" lifeforms in the warp, something that is always overlooked in the "daemon-rich" warp that many people wish to see. Indigenous? As in native to the warp? You do realize, of course, that this is in no way compatible with what I've written so far. Having discussed this with you for months now, I sincerely hope I'm misunderstanding you. As for daemonic vs non-daemonic, that really depends on your definition of daemon, and in 40k, my definition of daemon is vague at best. Suffice it to say that they inhabit the warp, are immortal, require energy in the same way as physical creatures (though in different forms), and that they are completely independent from any gods. I am hoping that fiction, if not specific racial information, will introduce other forms from the sentient to proto-sentient to non-sentient; from the 'peaceful grazers', to the hungry carnivores, to the malicious killers... All of which are possible in a 'natural' ecosystem. They do not have to be daemonic. Fluff has already introduced the three forms you mention, which is where I got the idea from. Hungry carnivores and malicious killers are also known from fiction. The "peaceful grazers" are not known from fiction, presumably because it's hard to think of an interesting story where they would fit in. Forgive my inability to use the scroll function. I'm not sure that I've even been fond of them being able to physically manifest in the material universe except through the use of great 'power' (draining them), no have I been comfortable with them being 'born' in the real world and then making their transfer to the Warp. (That they did this in the past is fine...) You did indeed protest on new Aoideans being born in the real world and then being transferred to the warp, so I've pretty much abandoned that idea. Just how they procreate is still a mystery at this point, though I'm thinking that they simply divide their form much like single-celled organisms, as they gain the power to do so. Needless to say, this drains them of much energy, which is why they can't do it all the time. As for them manifesting in the physical universe, I've always agreed that this would drain them of great amounts of energy, as seen with Chaos daemons. In addition, it makes them highly visible to enemies and predators in the warp, remotely comparable to the heroes in the Matrix movies, who log onto the Matrix, and thus reveal themselves to the Agents. ... Although now I've said that, the idea of dust swirling around and creating this transitory form is a really cool image... But not a solid form, of course. Not something that would pass inspection and which, after a time, would disintegrate as the energy drained aweay... Not sure I understand what you're suggesting here. Are you proposing that the Aoideans should not be able to take physical form like Chaos daemons are known to, but that they instead should be able to manipulate the physical universe, and in this way appear to humans and aliens by creating transitory forms of dust, water or smoke? Those are the points that are springing to mind at the moment. I'm really sorry for the brevit but, again, I really have less time and since it is increasingly looking like I'm going to have to shift to an administrative roll upon the completion of the 'standardised representation' of Anargo (which sits on my computer at the moment), it is at present all that I'm able to do... Believe it or not, Kage, I've actually gathered that you're a busy man by now. You don't have to make a long excuse after each post. Unless of course, it's your way of blowing off steam Venturing a bit Off-T; what remains to be done with Anargo?
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Post by Kage2020 on May 4, 2004 16:41:39 GMT -5
Indigenous? As in native to the warp? You do realize, of course, that this is in no way compatible with what I've written so far. Having discussed this with you for months now, I sincerely hope I'm misunderstanding you. Yes, I do realise that they are not technically 'indigenous', but was referring more to how they could be interepreted... Perhaps 'benign' (in general terms) would be more useful. As for daemonic vs non-daemonic, that really depends on your definition of daemon, and in 40k, my definition of daemon is vague at best. And that depends on how you view "chaos daemons" being formed, but either tend to owe 'allegiance' to a Chaos Power or something similar... "Indigenous life" results out of other features of the warp. Though what they are are obviously up for grabs, but includes 'psychic vampires' etc. Believe it or not, Kage, I've actually gathered that you're a busy man by now. I feel guilty, so shut up! Venturing a bit Off-T; what remains to be done with Anargo? Typing up the standard representation and then making it slightly 'truer' to the original premise. The majority of the information is in place, but transcribing it is a hassle at the moment. Kage
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 4:46:22 GMT -5
Well, despite time constraints, I was specifically asked to come and reinitiate discussion about this race. Since I've forgotten the majority of the discussion which took place both here and on Portent I thought that I would return to the beginning and the posted "Index Aoideans" that CELS posted. If there are any points of contradiction with some of the previously posted discussion then... well... tough. Opinions change as do specific approaches to things in the Anargo Sector Project. (For example, I have a memory that they were attempted to be integrated with the "Heart", but I cannot quite remember how this was done. As with Portent, sometimes its best to go over old territory as a way of getting to new territory... ) History- Have you considered where the world is to be located now that more 'temporary' maps are available?
- What do you envisage the specific interest of the eldar being in the Aoideans? What is the nature of their relationship, or do you envisage it as being an entirely one-sided affair? Why do the eldar even consider them as 'significant' given the traditionally ascribed arrogance of that race.
- I maintain concern on the 'benign' nature of the race. Peace, love and harmony for all...? Nah. (I am, of course, over-stating this but well, it's fun to do that sometimes! ;D)
- Purey personal consideration, but starting with "Once upon a time" makes it sound like a fairy tale.
- What were the unique considerations that gave the Aoideans such mastery, more so when the eldar are said to be the true heirs of the Old Ones (themselves supposed masters of this type of thing)?
- Why did their mastery of the warp lead to peace? Imposition is always problematic with the warp, especially with the canker of Chaos manifest over the original 'harmonious' warp...
- Again, I'm unkeen of having a race harking back to the War in Heaven. We've already got oodles of this type of thing going on both here and in 'fan 'fluff'' in general. It's not surprising since it is a common part of the 40k universe that everyone jumps on the current GW bandwagon.
- How was the transubstantian managed? And why was the discarding of the mortal form seen as a viable alternative given both the concept of Chaos and, perhaps, that of the Enslavers. Oh, you mention it later... Mass Suicide. Would this not have had a significant effect on the warp, changing the rules somewhat? (E.g. thinking about the arguments suggesting that daemons would have made a significant snack of the Necron souls had they been around...)
- The enemies in question were, at this point, presumably Necrons? Why would they need 'runes of protection' when one considers that the warp is supposedly - if you take the shallow consideration - inimicable to the C'tan and, by extension, the Necrons.
- "...rebuild their civilisation within the warp..." Was there civilisation ever 'gone'? I mean, they didn't turn into a barbarbic group of individuals with no forms of social interaction? There is, however, the implication here that they made some form of structures, which is of course problematic. (Although the idea of differential visualisation of the warp has always been of interest to me...)
- The Waking... cool enough. ;D
Physical Characteristics- Perhaps not entire physical growth, but continued growth of... something? Akin to antlers, perhaps. Not overtly fussed either way.
- "...though the length of each digit differed from ours..." Erm, what do you mean by this? Did they have random finger length or are you saying that different proportions and/or joint system/whatever was in play?
- The crests and 'horns'... Been watching Jurassic Park 2? Just an extended sinus structure.
- Generic comment is that, for some reason, they partially remind me of the Ogier from Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Erm, I'll shut up now.
- Warp duality... I'm not overtly keen on this on an individual level. That they can join together to create a gestalt being is, of course, interesting.
- In terms of warp appearance I would imagine that there is a general 'consensus' on appearance within the race. They are, after all, all Aoideans. Same with physical manifestation (Matrix's "residual self image" rather than the Babylon 5 Vorlon approach).
- Age related changes... You say that the elders are distanced from physical form, yet in their physical society it was one of the defining features of the elders? This seems a bit strange...
Home World- How extensive do you see the archaeological remains of the Aoideans and, indeed, where do you see them being located in general terms. What have the Imperium, or others, been able to learn of them from these remains?
- "...according to Eldar legends..." Might need some modification since I really do argue against them being older than the Old Ones or, when it comes down to it, contemporaries of the eldar. With that said, however, the chances are that the eldar history - including their favoured legendary representation - would include mention of these... (And, of course, the eldar understood the 'warp technology' employed. ) Hmmn... maybe not. I'm open for this one, but they are definitely not going to be contemporaries of the Old Ones... please.
- Creation of 'hosts'. I think at present this is a bit nebulous and needs some more work. Possession requires a strong psychic presence, not strictly a genetic similarity. (Cf. Farseer.)
- I am also not particularly keen on them being able to 'reconstruct' their population. By the sounds of it they truly should be the 'dying race' that the eldar are not...
Combat capabilities- I would be wary of giving elder Aoideans the 'combat capabilities' of Greater Daemons. That is far too powerful.
Technology- Why do they need the warp gates?
Social Structure- "Very little is known about the Aoidean social structure..." Remember that we do no take this approach with the ASP. We explain things as "privileged information" so that people know about the social structure, but we acknowledge that few people in the 'modern' universe would know about this.
Anyway, here's to hoping that this most interesting race rapidly develops. So far they are my most favourite 'fan' race thus far.
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Post by CELS on Oct 5, 2004 12:54:12 GMT -5
Well, despite time constraints, I was specifically asked to come and reinitiate discussion about this race. Since I've forgotten the majority of the discussion which took place both here and on Portent I thought that I would return to the beginning and the posted "Index Aoideans" that CELS posted. Most appreciated, and I do apologize for the late reply. Things got in the way, and other areas of the project needed my attention I have started rewriting the Aoidean article though, and here's what I have so far. The Aoideans are an old race, having first travelled the stars almost a hundred millennia before humans first left Sol. Their world, Aoide, was located near a temporaral warp rift in the heart of the Anargo sector. This warp rift, leaking strange energy from the immaterium, had an important effect on Aoide and its lifeforms. The Aoideans were quick to develop a high form of intelligence, and their exposure to the warp led to an ever increasing portion of psykers in their population. Unlike the humans, the Aoideans discovered an developed their psychic powers before they accomplished space travel. Whilst their technological progress was slower than that of humans, the Aoideans delved deep in the secrets of psychics, and because of their exposure to the warp rift, they reached a level of mastery rivalled only by a few other races in the galaxy, thereof the Eldar.
As warpcraft became more and more important to the Aoideans, there became an increasing gap between psykers and non-psykers. The most powerful psykers of their race became their rulers, using their ability to look into the past and future. Naturally, there were many conflicts between the psykers and non-psykers as both strived for more power, but with each resolved conflict the Aoideans grew more monolithic still. A powerful religion grew amongst the Aoideans, preaching the positive sides of warpcraft and how it could unify the Aoideans as a race and bring them into communion with the greatest powers of the universe.
Inevitably, as the Aoideans travelled the stars, they met the many warmonging force of the galaxy. Encountering the savage orks and decadent eldar, the Aoideans found themselves at war with races who would not negotiate for peace- races who had lived many times as long as them, constantly at war with eachother. World by world, the aliens crushed the Aoidean empire untill only a handful worlds remained in the heart of the sector. With nowhere to go, the Aoideans trembled as inevitable doom approach.
As their fate unfolded, many Aoideans were horrified to learn that their future had been written in the teachings of their religion. The religious leaders of the Aoideans spoke out, saying that they had seen into the future and that they knew the only way their race could survive. Arranging for a ritual of mass suicide, the Aoidean priests would use their powers to transcend the Aoideans to creatures of the warp. Building great portals, the Aoideans also prepared for a time when they could return from the warp, using protective runes to stop other warp entities from using the same portals.
The effect of the mass suicides caused a massive warp storm, leading the warp rift near Aoide to momentarily expand and engulf Aoide. + STOP + I'm stopping here, as I'm not sure if the warp storm should swallow the planet and leave it in the warp, or just cause permanent changes to the world. I have never heard of warp storms swallowing entire planets, I think.Have you considered where the world is to be located now that more 'temporary' maps are available? Near the heart of the sector. I don't want the Aoidean homeworlds to be anywhere near Imperial subsectors. What do you envisage the specific interest of the eldar being in the Aoideans? What is the nature of their relationship, or do you envisage it as being an entirely one-sided affair? Why do the eldar even consider them as 'significant' given the traditionally ascribed arrogance of that race. To start with the latter, the Aoideans would be useful when it comes to predicting the future, for one thing. Being more at one with the warp, they may have a better chance of looking into it. Second, the Aoideans struggle against Chaos, and most of the Eldar agree that they're going to need the help of other races to prevail. It's perfectly possible that most Eldar would see the Aoideans as tools, same as humans. (This works both ways, actually, having a common enemy) I maintain concern on the 'benign' nature of the race. Peace, love and harmony for all...? Nah. (I am, of course, over-stating this but well, it's fun to do that sometimes! ;D) Now that I'm rereading what I wrote, I see your point. I'll definitely try to describe the nature of the Aoideans to be predicated upon survival rather than a desire for everyone to be happy. It will be a major point however, that their religion has always taught that in order to survive against their enemies, they must cooperate both as a race, and with other races. This would make them more forthcoming to humans, Eldar and other non-insane races. Purey personal consideration, but starting with "Once upon a time" makes it sound like a fairy tale. Agreed What were the unique considerations that gave the Aoideans such mastery, more so when the eldar are said to be the true heirs of the Old Ones (themselves supposed masters of this type of thing)? As you may have read, I have come up with the warp-rift idea to explain this. As you know, the exposure to the Eye of Terror causes a greater number of psykers both in humans and in Eldar (Ulthwe), so I figure that with the race being born nearly inside a warp rift, this is bound to have some consequences. Negative consequences too, I suppose, but not majorly important ones. (Mutants and chaos worshippers would be killed.)
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Post by CELS on Oct 5, 2004 12:55:15 GMT -5
Why did their mastery of the warp lead to peace? Imposition is always problematic with the warp, especially with the canker of Chaos manifest over the original 'harmonious' warp... I'm changing this a bit too. It only led to the unification of the race just before their mass suicide. Before that, it was the war against the aliens which led to peace, and before that, I'm not really suggesting that the race was in total harmony. Again, I'm unkeen of having a race harking back to the War in Heaven. We've already got oodles of this type of thing going on both here and in 'fan 'fluff'' in general. It's not surprising since it is a common part of the 40k universe that everyone jumps on the current GW bandwagon. Thy will be done How was the transubstantian managed? And why was the discarding of the mortal form seen as a viable alternative given both the concept of Chaos and, perhaps, that of the Enslavers. Oh, you mention it later... Mass Suicide. Would this not have had a significant effect on the warp, changing the rules somewhat? (E.g. thinking about the arguments suggesting that daemons would have made a significant snack of the Necron souls had they been around...) Right. The suicide now caused the warp storms which swallowed/changed their world forever. As the event is no longer in the War in Heaven, the C'tan are no longer an issue. The enemies in question were, at this point, presumably Necrons? Why would they need 'runes of protection' when one considers that the warp is supposedly - if you take the shallow consideration - inimicable to the C'tan and, by extension, the Necrons. To stop chaos daemons from using the same portals as you. "...rebuild their civilisation within the warp..." Was there civilisation ever 'gone'? I mean, they didn't turn into a barbarbic group of individuals with no forms of social interaction? There is, however, the implication here that they made some form of structures, which is of course problematic. (Although the idea of differential visualisation of the warp has always been of interest to me...) Civilisation doesn't necessarily refer to buildings, does it? It can be defined as 'a society in an advanced state of social development '. In other words, it was the Aoidean society that collapsed. The social hierarchies, etc. I did see buildings as well, but I'm not suggesting that it was the destruction of these that led to disaster. The Waking... cool enough. ;D Are you referring to the name? Perhaps not entire physical growth, but continued growth of... something? Akin to antlers, perhaps. Not overtly fussed either way. As you say later, they're just extended sinus structures. "...though the length of each digit differed from ours..." Erm, what do you mean by this? Did they have random finger length or are you saying that different proportions and/or joint system/whatever was in play? Erm... can't remember why I wrote this. Their joint system was fairly similar to that of humans. I believe I meant that their fingers had different proportions, but... I really don't know why I wrote this The crests and 'horns'... Been watching Jurassic Park 2? Actually, I do believe I came up with the idea from my own imagination. For once, I did not steal the idea from somewhere. Not consciously anyway. Generic comment is that, for some reason, they partially remind me of the Ogier from Jordan's Wheel of Time series. Erm, I'll shut up now. Thanks. As you know, this is meaningless to me Warp duality... I'm not overtly keen on this on an individual level. That they can join together to create a gestalt being is, of course, interesting. What do you mean by warp duality? I wasn't able to find anything about that... In terms of warp appearance I would imagine that there is a general 'consensus' on appearance within the race. They are, after all, all Aoideans. Same with physical manifestation ( Matrix's "residual self image" rather than the Babylon 5 Vorlon approach). Whilst I'm not familiar with the 'Vorlon approach', there would be a general consensus. But then, spending a small eternity in the warp tends to change your self image, I imagine. Age related changes... You say that the elders are distanced from physical form, yet in their physical society it was one of the defining features of the elders? This seems a bit strange... How extensive do you see the archaeological remains of the Aoideans and, indeed, where do you see them being located in general terms. What have the Imperium, or others, been able to learn of them from these remains? Archaeological remains... some of it might be quite intact, actually. Since the race commited a mass suicide, there was probably no use of weapons of mass destruction on their homeworlds. Even the orks would fail to see the point in destroying a dead planet. But then, exposure to the tooth of time for a hundred thousand years is quite considerable. By the time human researchers came, very little would left. The Eldar might have learned a whole lot though, but I doubt it would have had an effect on their technology or anything. Orks... maybe, but it has made little difference over the years. Aoide should hopefully be located near the Heart of Anargo, same as the other Aoidean worlds. At the height of their power, I guess the Aoidean empire stretched across ten star systems at most. You don't have to travel far to meet hostile aliens in 40k. "...according to Eldar legends..." Might need some modification since I really do argue against them being older than the Old Ones or, when it comes down to it, contemporaries of the eldar. With that said, however, the chances are that the eldar history - including their favoured legendary representation - would include mention of these... (And, of course, the eldar understood the 'warp technology' employed. ) Hmmn... maybe not. I'm open for this one, but they are definitely not going to be contemporaries of the Old Ones... please. This problem is now solved, I suppose. Creation of 'hosts'. I think at present this is a bit nebulous and needs some more work. Possession requires a strong psychic presence, not strictly a genetic similarity. (Cf. Farseer.) Erm... yep... *ponders* I am also not particularly keen on them being able to 'reconstruct' their population. By the sounds of it they truly should be the 'dying race' that the eldar are not... I would be wary of giving elder Aoideans the 'combat capabilities' of Greater Daemons. That is far too powerful. Well... is it? Greater Daemons of Chaos seem to vary greatly in power. Just looking at GW miniatures, you have a Greater Daemon by Forgeworld that is almost as big as a Titan. You also have the smaller ones which are matched by mere SM Dreadnoughts (both in size and in the rules) Why do they need the warp gates? To facilitate the travel from one realm to another. Just like runes and sigils facilitate possession. "Very little is known about the Aoidean social structure..." Remember that we do no take this approach with the ASP. We explain things as "privileged information" so that people know about the social structure, but we acknowledge that few people in the 'modern' universe would know about this. Of course. I will rewrite this later. Cheers! I hope to work a lot on them in the near future, if I get enough help from you guys
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Post by Kage2020 on Nov 1, 2004 21:19:45 GMT -5
Re-read the last bit and the only real question there was about the 'warp duality' thing, which I cannot remember what I was talking about at the time...
Suppose I'm just waiting for the rewrite. Might also be interesting to look at Destecado's Ho... Horro... Horosk... Or however you spell them. You seemed concerned that they were treading on your domain, so it might be good to bastardise the ideas...
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Post by Destecado on Nov 2, 2004 13:12:42 GMT -5
Ok, I've printed up the entire thread and will give it a re-read. BTW, Kage, I think I like Horosk as the name better then Hosok....I may change it one we resolve the issue of sacrificing themselves.
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Post by CELS on Nov 2, 2004 15:56:53 GMT -5
Destecado, keep in mind that I've changed a LOT of the original stuff in my short, new post (with the bone-coloured text). As for trying to bastardise the ideas... I'm not sure about this. I'm afraid the initial concept of the Aoideans is quite solid in my mind, though I'm open to discuss the specifics. I should mention, however, that I have described some 'rogue' Aoideans, who have gone bad and seperated themselves from the others in the warp. These Aoideans are now 'evil', and might be suitable for some Hosok / Horosk bastardisation. PS: I like Hosok better than Horosk, personally
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Post by Destecado on Nov 12, 2004 14:54:14 GMT -5
Hmmmm.....after reading the bone colored text and re-reading the original, some ideas have begun to formulate. The Hosok may well be a divergent population of the Aoideans. It may be that the call for the ritualized suicide is what fianlly caused the schism to blossom into an outright split. The Hosok might have fled rather than participating in the ritual.
As to the origin of the Aoideans culture, I have an interesting though about how this might have occured. Based on the bone text, you wish to place the Aoideans at the heart of the Sector. The heart of the sector is currently in turmoil caused by the proto-imensional fragments.
These fragments are the remains of an Old One's experiment to seperate the Necrons from our reality. Being as how these fragments occured around the time of the War in Heaven, they would predate the existance of the Aoideans within the sector.
My theory is that the warp rift and the foundation of the Aoidean race may have been caused by one of these proto-dimensional fragements crashing back into our own reality.
It may be that the creatures that were the Aoideans existed within the proto-dimension prior to its crashing into our reality. they may have had a thriving culture that was destroyed in the great cataclysm (the merging of the two realities). the energy released as realities collided would have destroyed everything....everything physical.
The spirits of the most powerful Aoideans could have survived. The could have acted as a locus or spiritual link for the other Aoidean spirits. to allow them to "survive" the transition and eventually be reborn in our reality.
In this waythe Aoideans are refugees from another reality. Their reality was not that different frm our own, which is why they did not suffer the same effects as demons that attempt to manifest within it. They also didn't try to emerge all at once.
They allowed themselve to be born into this reality...a kind of acclimation to its laws. this might also help to explain their sudden acceleration in intelligence.
The mass scuicide when they returned to the warp could also be symbolic of their rejection of physical form...acknowledging physicallity as nothing more than an illusion. Their true destiny being creatures of pure spirit.
The Hosok could be a splinter faction that rejected this loss of physicallity. Unlike the other Aoideans, they were too tied up in the physical world, to leave it for the warp was frightening.
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Post by CELS on Nov 13, 2004 13:30:38 GMT -5
Now that we've cleared up the nature of the Hosok and their appearance in the material realm, I think the Hosok would easily fit in with the Aoideans. Consider the two ideas merged, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm intrigued by how you connect the Heart of Anargo to the Aoideans. As I've hinted elsewhere, I wanted the Aoidean homeworld to be a sort of daemonworld in M41, but couldn't quite justify it. The only thing I could come up with was a warp storm that actually swallowed the entire planet, but somehow, that seemed a bit far fetched.
To make the Hosok tied to the material realm though, it seems to make more sense to have the Aoidean homeworld (Aoide) originally placed in the material realm.
I think it would be very cool if the unstability of the proto-dimensions was what eventually led to Aoide becoming a daemonworld, although only in an alternate dimension (which saves us the mess of having a daemon world in the middle of the Anargo sector).
This could be tied in with the early concept of having Aoideans as a sort of guardian of the Necron tomb. Perhaps it was no coincidence that the Aoideans' homeworld was trapped in the dimension of the Necrons, and that their world became a 'daemonworld' of the Aoideans themselves...
Hmmm... So...
1) The Aoideans come from the alternate reality which contains the Necron tombworld. 2) The Aoideans predicted that their alternate reality would unwrap and that their worlds would reappear (because that's where they were before the Old Ones tucked them away) in the Matterium, and so committed mass suicide to try and live on as sentient warp entities. 3) The Hosok feared the transition, so they built spirit anchors on their various worlds, hoping to survive the following destruction. 4) Only a few Aoideans succesfully transcended to the warp, and none of the Hosok survived in their physical form. The Hosoks' spirit anchors worked however, and their spirits were forever bound in the material realm. Well, for as long as the anchors were there, anyway. 5) As the borders of the alternate reality shifted, the Aoidean homeworld was lost in the warp, and now accessible only through the gates of the Hosok (This, of course, requires a lot of thought, if it is at all possible). 6) Eventually, the uninhabited worlds of the Hosok in the Anargo sector were found by humans. With the Hosok anchors gone from the surface of these worlds after all those years (they'd be covered with sand, rocks and dirt), the appearance of the Hosok became a mystery.
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