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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 5:56:21 GMT -5
Well, as long as it doesn't require significant quantities of work - primarily be me - and is simply applied to the Anargo sector without the generation of huge quantities of additional data and that is created to impose a specific interpretation on the 'fluff', then fine.
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Post by zholud on Jul 23, 2004 0:25:09 GMT -5
I can assure you that most of the work will be done by me and possibly by ones interested in the subject (that’s why I answer on the post here and not by PM – I want volunteers ) … The main problem is that I’m planning to rest out of hard work and it may hamper me in creation of adequate system in time. We can always tweak Traveller of course, but I think I’ll do a better alternative, which allows for more depth… I hope we won’t drown in this depth
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 23, 2004 7:54:00 GMT -5
And if you're to allow discussion you cannot get too obscure, of course. That's an important thing. The system has to be balanced and easy to imply in a step-by-step process... For example, I can quite readily agree with that statement that multilateral trade is, generally, 'out' given the inherent complexities in applying it to the Anargo sector... Although I'm now disagreeing with that since... Ah well, I'll shut up for now. And I wouldn't expect too many volunteers...
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Post by zholud on Aug 8, 2004 2:44:48 GMT -5
Some general stuff I came with during my vacations… not much to be sincere, after all I was resting… - Way to go – I guess that we have to make trade the consequence of output/production/GWP/income level and not the source of it. Of course, they are interrelated, I just have to put decision on ‘chicken or egg’ problem here. There original idea will be that trade/GWP ratio increase to come extent with GWP growth and then falls. This is usual assumption for real-world countries. So, main problem now – setting calculation procedure for GWP. I’ll try to make it on the basis of your posts and function presented above… with labour, capital, etc. Now I play out formula for capital out of TL, labour, resources…
- Tithe problem – on real world economies we almost never have a true extraction of resources in the same way the Imperium supposedly does. So we need to decide how much in relation to GWP the tithe can be and who transports/administers it. One way is to set tithe as a share of trade and oblige traders to move x percent of the good they transport as imperial property. Or we deduct tithe from GWP prior to trade calculations.
- Intra-system sub-light trade – I just got idea that we can have fairs that are determined iin time by the period when two planets that trade are close to each other.
Uh, there is a lot of other posts to answer…
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 12:24:16 GMT -5
I’ll try to make it on the basis of your posts and function presented above… with labour, capital, etc. Seems reasonble enough. One thing that obviously does spring to mind in terms of labour is the assumption in GT:FT that the total population is labour-producing. This is obviously not strictly the case and one has to question whether generalities could be made about the labour force. This would in some way moderate the horrendously disproportionate GWP created for 'hiveworlds' (which are not considered viable in the Traveller universe) based upon their total populations... Maybe not inappropriately they are going to suck all trade into them leading to the premise that in any subsector that has one or more hiveworlds, the one with the largest GWP (or the single hiveworld) will naturally be the subsector capital... On real world economies we almost never have a true extraction of resources in the same way the Imperium supposedly does. Problem here is that the tithe system is somewhat "wishy washy" and seems to tacitly imply balanced trade. You tithe food, you get tithed manufactured goods of equal value... So we need to decide how much in relation to GWP the tithe can be... Yup, most definitely. Would it not be feasible to use (perhaps) the tithe class or aestimare in this calculation? In this it might be useful to establish a communication with CELS or, at least, get him to come and play on this thread. and who transports/administers it.... The classis mercatilis, although one could imagine that the classis civiles is 'incorporated' in situations where volume of trade/tithe is insufficient to warrant the 'uber-transports' of the classis mercatilis. Or we deduct tithe from GWP prior to trade calculations. If we do this then based upon annual trade calculations, the tithe can be made a significant fracture (or even factor) of the calculated GWP. (I'm remembering the fact that the 'test ship' created for an RPG designed in GURPS Vehicles had a cost which was akin to around 1% the GWP of Anargo... and that's a small ship.) I just got idea that we can have fairs that are determined iin time by the period when two planets that trade are close to each other.
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Post by zholud on Aug 9, 2004 8:20:29 GMT -5
Seems reasonble enough. One thing that obviously does spring to mind in terms of labour is the assumption in GT:FT that the total population is labour-producing. Generally it is equivalent to real world if one assumes no population growth and static population age pyramid.. Problem here is that the tithe system is somewhat "wishy washy" and seems to tacitly imply balanced trade. You tithe food, you get tithed manufactured goods of equal value... I guess to add some tithe paid in imperial currency, especially for feral/medieval worlds. Analogue to medieval money taxes on peasants. More will be on tithe thread I hope. The classis mercatilis, although one could imagine that the classis civiles is 'incorporated' in situations where volume of trade/tithe is insufficient to warrant the 'uber-transports' of the classis mercatilis. Quite probably this is the case. Point is whether there is truly ‘tithe-only’ transports controlled by Administratum, or collection of taxes is more ‘open market’ How much trade is going to occur between worlds within the same system? It depends, but between mining and industrial world if they are independent and can keep annual stock of commodities for trade it can be very large number, close to the mining planet GWP I guess.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 12, 2004 23:09:56 GMT -5
Quite probably this is the case. Point is whether there is truly ‘tithe-only’ transports controlled by Administratum, or collection of taxes is more ‘open market’ I would say that it is not 'open market', based upon the descriptions of the lower Charters. The higher Charters (hereditary free, etc.) have a somewhat loser definition, almost as if the original author didn't know what they were trying to do but that wouldn't be too big a surprise. Hmmm... I'd imagine that the who will also suggested when the process is determined.
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Post by Sojourner on Sept 22, 2004 10:31:59 GMT -5
Well, I've had a stab at trying to build a framework of information on which to work out what we want to do with trade. I'm trying to produce a database of 'absolutes' which are universally true of any given system that can be used with modifiers to determine further statistics to use.
For example, one piece of data which can be used is a planet's labour potential, which I measure in man-hours/month. This is independent of any technological or social factors (aside from the length of the working day) and simply states the labour capacity of a range of industrial sectors on each planet.
Well, for a better idea, PM me for the current spreadsheet.
And tell me what else should be included, of course. Bearing in mind that nothing should be excluded, I'm simply tabulating some data on our systems that can be taken as 'true'.
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Post by Dazo on Oct 19, 2004 15:19:37 GMT -5
Is what the world actually has to trade going to make any difference, as a world trading in precious metals is, I would assume going to be making more money than textiles say. That would also have an impact on the traders themselves and the types of ship they would be using.
Tithes would be a % of GWP would they not, so that would need to be worked out and then subtracted from the GWP giving you your final trade figures. As each resource a world produces would be tithed differently you might well need numerous tithe levels, this could rapidly get out of control, so how detailed did you want this to be, obviously the more information used the more accurate we are going to be.
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Post by Zholud on Oct 20, 2004 2:20:37 GMT -5
For example, one piece of data which can be used is a planet's labour potential, which I measure in man-hours/month. This is independent of any technological or social factors (aside from the length of the working day) and simply states the labour capacity of a range of industrial sectors on each planet. Just being nitpicky bastard™, I want to inform you that labour potential is good enough as a first approximation. However, when you look closer at the subject you’ll see that number of hours worked per period of time depends on: - level of unemployment;
- institutional rules (working suffrage, etc);
- methods of spending free time, cost of leisure;
- physical conditions of the planet that affect attrition and tiredness;
- wage value, alternative sources of income, subsistence minimum.
All-in-all we can set ‘labour force parameter as function of population, estimate productivity of labour… Is what the world actually has to trade going to make any difference, as a world trading in precious metals is, I would assume going to be making more money than textiles say. I highly doubt it. For sure, trade in ferrous metals is larger (both is total value and profit derived from it) than in precious metals. And textiles are most likely larger too… Tithes would be a % of GWP would they not, They would, in the same way as men will be % of population. Ratios are figures but not determinants. so that would need to be worked out and then subtracted from the GWP giving you your final trade figures. Giving you GWP w/o taxes. This figure mostly shows local production and consumption. Trade is export and import and is some share of GWP, but it mostly depends on demand for goods and services and not supply, shown by GWP. Moreover, as I wrote before – tithes are made in good mostly, so it is sometimes better to see them part of the trade. Example: shipyard makes military and merchant fleets, needs, e.g. steel. Mining colony supplies steel, part as tithe (goes to military ship) part as private trade (merchant vessel to be sold later). All ore can be supplies with one ship and Imperium can be seen as just another economic agent.
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Post by Sojourner on Oct 22, 2004 4:34:00 GMT -5
That's what I'm getting at. Unfortunately, all my stuff is now on my computer at home, me being elsewhere and not likely to be coming back for some time.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 21, 2004 7:52:52 GMT -5
Well, as I'm home now, does anyone want to shed any more light on this subject? Given that I haven't got round to doing a planet, this is the only thing catching my interest at present.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 21, 2004 8:03:02 GMT -5
Well we still need to set values for what is actually tradeable first, then I would also assume there would be different exchange rates, how easy it to get to a world, how much does warp travel cost, who would be doing the trading would also effect the numbers, as there would I imagine be a difference between the imperium and free traders. Is it goods for money or goods for goods. The whole thing is a bloody morass, I think some needs to make some arbitrary decision on the numbers and then we can work from there.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 21, 2004 8:49:48 GMT -5
What I could do with from all the worldsmiths is: - Mean length of working day in Earth hours
- Proportions of labour force in terms of 'pairs of hands' allocated to each category of industry on the spreadsheet
- A stab in the dark at how much capital in total the world has as a proportion of the assets of Anargo
Now, I'm going to PM the Excel spreadsheet I've been working on to everyone who wants it. While I appreciate that everyone is going to have their own idea of what should and shouldn't be on the sheet, humour me for a while and follow the structure, just so I can rationalise what's really going on. At a later stage we can talk about refining the layout.
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Post by Dazo on Dec 21, 2004 9:52:44 GMT -5
Well it seems to work as I'm getting some interesting numbers for my worlds, how accurate they are is another matter, oh and thats only in the first row, I havn't done any other rows.
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