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Post by Philip on Jan 12, 2005 18:03:38 GMT -5
What about bidding for the various goods your world needs, and offering exports and perhaps marking the trade in a ‘trade treaty’ thread? I think that the Imperium would just use ‘tonnage’, with some goods worth more than others as a ratio (perhaps: raw, refined, manufactured (various tech levels)/ permanent and consumable) Example: Work out what your world has to offer (in tons), work out who the nearest neighbours (they get first dibs), and any left can be ship out further a field. If goods run out, then maybe Kage can step in and mediate. Once the routes are sorted, we can work out how many ships are need, and if you want to go crazy, convert it all to a credit system later. ;D
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 12, 2005 21:58:57 GMT -5
Well, GT:FT does include both 'credit' and 'tonnage' systems in parallel to each other, working on the principle that in any non-abstract system of finances there must be an exchange of currency (or something similar). This works even when you have a unified (single) currency, AFAIK. But my economics is as weak as... erm, something very weak. That example, for example!
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Post by Philip on Jan 12, 2005 22:10:23 GMT -5
What if the Imperium operates on a barter system for the ‘huge volume goods’ with pegged values for tonnage of various goods?
This would mean you can’t buy wholesale goods on credit; you can only trade tons of goods for tons of goods at predefine ratios?
Perhaps all massive trades are like hostage exchanges, seeing as loosing such a large amount of Cargo (5km jobbie) in one go could cripple a world’s economy.
All smaller sole traders, entrepreneurs etc. could then operate on a different system entirely and give ‘personal credit’, and acting as a mini bank or money lender.
What do you think?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 12, 2005 22:48:19 GMT -5
Please read the GT:FT thread. What if the Imperium operates on a barter system for the ‘huge volume goods’ with pegged values for tonnage of various goods? The Imperium as an entity does not work on barter. Tithe system operates in a restributive format. Everything else is 'free trade', insofar as it can be supported by Merchant and Civil fleets.
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Post by Philip on Jan 13, 2005 11:59:29 GMT -5
Please read the GT:FT thread. Will do, skimmed it, haven’t digested it as yet. The Imperium as an entity does not work on barter. Tithe system operates in a restributive format. Everything else is 'free trade', insofar as it can be supported by Merchant and Civil fleets. Isn’t the tithe system just ‘set barter’ run by the Imperium and free trade could easily be bartering? Money and credit could come into effect when actually on the surface of a world. I have a felling credit on one world isn’t credit on another. Example: I traveller could buy commodities [gold] on the world that they start their journey from, and when they arrive at the destination world sell the [gold] for credits.
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Post by Zholud on Jan 13, 2005 16:10:28 GMT -5
Side note on trade and economy. I guess we’ll stick with what we have ATM and they one day if I got all needed stuff I’ll setup programme for recalculation… after all who cares on global scale whether planet XS exports 128,985,973 tons of wheat or 0.2bn… or even exports for 5.6tln abstract currency units. Isn’t the tithe system just ‘set barter’ run by the Imperium and free trade could easily be bartering? to a large extent yes, except for end-use commodities that are spent forever, e.g. or war… Money and credit could come into effect when actually on the surface of a world. I have a felling credit on one world isn’t credit on another. This depends on the world and on your status. I guess you may cash Anargo’s check on Meksum without problem. Letters of credit should be quite widsespead among traders… another problem that traders and their personnel to service their needs, e.g. bankers are maybe 0.000001% of sector’s population. Example: I traveller could buy commodities [gold] on the world that they start their journey from, and when they arrive at the destination world sell the [gold] for credits. usually you don’t sell the same good you bought at the same location…
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Post by Philip on Jan 16, 2005 9:22:13 GMT -5
to a large extent yes, except for end-use commodities that are spent forever, e.g. or war… In return the world does get protection (as long as it pays its tithes – an exchange). This depends on the world and on your status. I guess you may cash Anargo’s check on Meksum without problem. Letters of credit should be quite widsespead among traders… another problem that traders and their personnel to service their needs, e.g. bankers are maybe 0.000001% of sector’s population. Considering the communications used, I’m not sure a person could guarantee a check (hence my gold idea), and how would a person cash it? Go to the cheque writer’s world to cash it in person and travel back with the money? Would the Astropaths be used to conduct ‘electronic commerce’? Maybe for the high ranking Imperial officials (of a sorts), but for common traders? Considering it would be very hard to actually cash a cheque they would be used as money (promise notes), but only among those who actually trusted and agreed to use them. Can ‘interstellar cheques’ really work? usually you don’t sell the same good you bought at the same location… Eh? Buy gold on Planet A, sell gold on Planet B. It’s not the same location, it’s a completely different world!
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Post by Zholud on Feb 2, 2005 11:28:22 GMT -5
In return the world does get protection (as long as it pays its tithes – an exchange). It gets public good in return, absolutely correct… point is that non-Imperial Mezzan empire is protected by Castellan the way Anargo is. However, only the latter pays tithe… if we play Imperium as parasite theory, backed by Kage, instead of symbiote theory I’d prefer, then part of tithe is used for financing goals unwanted/ not needed by Joe Imperial… Considering the communications used, I’m not sure a person could guarantee a check (hence my gold idea), and how would a person cash it? How medieval merchants cashed promissory notes? Answer is carefully Seriously, it depends on one’s trust, as well as the fact that you think that papers or ones and zeros you get for your work is worth anything. And I do believe that Astropaths are used in commerce. After all the number of deals is not that large… Buy gold on Planet A, sell gold on Planet B. It’s not the same location, it’s a completely different world! Misunderstanding on my behalf… I think no empty carriers, thus goods go both ways, not goods-credit as you suggest…
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 5, 2005 19:04:36 GMT -5
When I use the term 'parasite' I refer merely to the fact that the adeptus terra government is above and beyond that of the local government. Obviously they are going to inter-relate even though the 40k universe does not generally provide us with the information or even a rough framework by which this can be achieved...
Indeed, the only general information you have is the general opposite information between those individuals who believe that the Imperium controls everything and those that take a different approach.
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 9, 2005 6:46:28 GMT -5
It's not barter - the world giving doesn't necessarily get anything in return, other than a convenient absence of the Imperial Fleet in their space.
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Tithing is a system of necessity, fairness is irrelevant as long as the job gets done.
I still defend my system - a world prepares a list of open bids to the Imperium at large and other worlds fulfil them, under the guidance of the Administratum. Simple.
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Post by CELS on Apr 9, 2005 8:55:41 GMT -5
By 'world', you mean the Imperial Commander and the local government - not the Adeptus Terra? If that is true, I disagree with that. I think the Adeptus Terra lands on the planet, sends out a bunch of Administratum inspectors (possibly someone from the Munitorum, Guard and Ecclessiarchy as well) who figure out what the planet is capable of. Based on that, the Imperium decides what aid they are willing to give the world and what they expect in return. Example 1: Meksum is able to produce a horrible amount of goods, so the Imperium decides they are willing to give the world a lot of food. In return, they expect a horrible amount of goods. Example 2: The poor world in the Anargo sub is unable to produce anything. Thus, the Imperium decides that they aren't willing to give it anything, but they still demand its allegiance in return for the protection of the Imperial army and navy. Example 3: Archaios is completely self-sufficient. Still, it receives extra materials from the Imperium, and is forced to tithe a certain amount of industrial goods, and the standard amount of military resources.
I agree 100% with Kages last post. In the end, the Imperium is above and beyond the local government. The local government may give advice and make requests, but they don't really have to, and most of the time it won't make a difference at all. If you want something done right, you've got to do it yourself. If said world doesn't like it, the Imperial Guard will be visiting shortly to 'facilitate communications'
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 9, 2005 9:06:53 GMT -5
Pretty much. The Imperium take what they can get and provide what is required. If a world is making an effort, it'll get what it needs, however much or little it's able to give back. A world is a world and is valuable simply by virtue of its existence, so whatever it needs to maintain its presence is granted, provided that in return they offer what it is assessed they are capable of providing.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 9, 2005 10:38:37 GMT -5
Which is all good since we know where we're coming from and it's roughly the same place. It still does not, however, address the ultimate question: Given the GT:FT system (it still not being replaced and, as such, I'm going to go with it), is tithe a proportion of the calculated flow of trade, or is it something else entirely. If so, what proportion?
Kage
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