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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 9, 2004 0:23:52 GMT -5
The problem with the 'tugs', etc., is that it is one of those instances of a specific function monkeying around with the classification system that you propose. Basing it around your non-military system, chances are that for general size/volume considerations it would fall into your 'shuttle' category... Overall, however, it seems a good start. Perhaps Minister is going to pop back with some additional knowledge of military and non-military goings on...? Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 9, 2004 1:38:13 GMT -5
A tug, however, is determined by its construction as much as its function. Very large engines, minimal crew, small fuel supply, and some method of anchorage.
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Post by CELS on Jun 9, 2004 1:42:11 GMT -5
Yes. And I think most tugs should actually be the size of Corvettes and Caravels, not shuttles (Shuttles being the size of jumbo jets and super-heavy barges being the size of Imperial battleships). But then, that depends on what purpose we see tug boats having in Warhammer 40,000. Helping large ships to dock with space stations and orbital docks? Anything else?
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 9, 2004 2:03:46 GMT -5
Moving space stations in orbit, perhaps?
Towing damaged vessels away from accident or combat zones...
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Post by Lordof on Jun 9, 2004 2:40:34 GMT -5
Well I can see all Space Stations and Orbital Docks having at least 3 of the Tugs.
And Tugs are a clissification all of their own due to their completely different role and design to any other ship. It isn't designed to go very far just push a lot over a short distance (Perhaps having about 4 days fuel onboard)
So Tugs would simply be something which won't be covered too much unless we decide to make a military tug which is desinged to haul damaged ships out of combat (Think a slab of armour and shields with some huge engines attatched and a hook)
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Post by CELS on Jun 9, 2004 3:13:52 GMT -5
Lordof, you do realize that we intend to cover aspects of 40k that are not directly related to the military side of things, right? Anyway... moving space stations in orbit. Yeah, I suppose, but I do think most space stations should be capable of that themselves, over some time. Towing damaged vessels away from accident or combat zones... Risky, since the crippled ship is likely to take more damage, and you risk it blowing up and taking the tug boat with it, but I can see why you'd take the risk with ancient battleships and the like. It seems the Imperial navy will need tug boats ranging in size from Corvette-size to Frigate-size. Same goes for all worlds with orbital docks, probably.
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Post by Sojourner on Jun 9, 2004 5:27:05 GMT -5
How else do you get a crippled ship out of danger?
Repair it on the spot? Which could take decades?
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Post by CELS on Jun 9, 2004 5:58:15 GMT -5
*sigh* I wasn't saying that it was unlikely. I said it was risky. Another way to get it out of danger would be to eliminate the danger, and then warp it out of there.
And before anyone asks, whether or not a tug boat would be able to take a crippled ship through the warp would depend entirely on the design of the tug boat, I suppose.
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Post by Minister on Jun 9, 2004 9:37:56 GMT -5
Although warp tugs do exist. I see them as about destroyer size, with no main guns (light shielding and point defence, though), powerful drives (although not built to handle high velocity manuvers and suchlike) and an unuslally high number of high quality navigators coupples with a vety lagre warp drive.
Oh, add "Ships' Boats" to the military one just above "Attack Craft". They may not be line combat vessels, but is does run on the military classification system.
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Post by CELS on Jun 9, 2004 9:43:38 GMT -5
What are ships' boats exactly? Do you have a better term for them?
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Post by Minister on Jun 9, 2004 13:20:07 GMT -5
Fighters, shuttles, recoverable escape pods, in-system scouts... All the little things a big ship takes with it.
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Post by Lordof on Jun 9, 2004 15:03:36 GMT -5
Yes CELS i do realise we are intending to cover all aspects of 40k
I was saying that beyond a description of the Tug itself and where it can be found i didn't think we would be spending too much time on them.
I still like the idea of a military tug
It may be risky to try and pull out the ship but if you were fighting Orks (Most likely in Anargo) then leaving such a ship about is most likely going to give the Orks a new Kroozer within a few months.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 9, 2004 23:12:00 GMT -5
So now that people seem re-invigorated by the topic to an extent where they are focussing on some other aspects, perhaps we could begin to address the original point and related topics? Remember that all we're trying to do is produce a framework upon which we can build... in some ways it's like genes/DNA in that regard. Some components might determine important features and offer guidelines in others, but only a few things are going to be 'fixed'... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jun 21, 2004 16:39:55 GMT -5
Update; BFG Armada includes an entry for 'Heavy Transports' in addition to the standard freighters. "Not all merchant ships fall into the standard 'small transport' category. Some of the larger trading galleons and ore carracks approach the size of warships..."According to the beloved www.dictionary.com, a carrack is a large galleon. Looking at the stats for the BFG 'heavy transport' (yes, I know it's bad to use rules to work out fluff problem, but I've no choice I'm afraid), it seems galleons are equivalent of light cruisers, and carracks are equivalent of cruisers. Like I've said, I'm not very keen on the term 'galleon', but if GW's using it, we might as well use it too. So, just to update the classification hierarchy; - Barge (also Heavy Barge, Superheavy Barge) - Carrack - Galleon - Freighter - Clipper - Sprint trader - Caravel - Shuttles / Boats
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Post by Kage2020 on Jun 22, 2004 0:25:15 GMT -5
And as a minor aside, I was taking a look at the old Fighting Ships of the Imperium book for the MegaTraveller RPG (from which the Guide derives) and it utilises the rather 'standard' range of ship classifications that GW does. Not that that's a surprise, of course. But the good thing about that book is that it comes with suggested v-displacements, which could be useful here (although I'm doing it from memory). Anyway, the values that spring to mind are: - Dreadnoughts: 500,000-700,000 v-tons.
- Battleships: As Dreadnoughts.
- Carriers: As Battleships.
- Tenders: As Battleships.
- Cruisers: 200,000-400,000 v-tons.
- Escorts: 8,000-10,000 v-tons.
(Dreadnought just being the most advanced battleship.) Now, these figures employ the logic of the Traveller universe in which the smallest ship capable of mounting an interstellar drive (jump drive) is 100 v-tons which is, currently, 30 times smaller than our 'minimum economically feasible' vessel to mount a warp drive... Would a simple factor of 30 increase make sense here? Using CELS' quick estimation of Imperial ship dimensions: V-tons = 2x.x.10x Then with the x30 increase to, say, suggested battleship v-ton displacement (above) of 700,000 v-tons: 700,000 x 3 = 2,100,000 v-tons Volume = 2,100,000 x 14 = 294,000,000m3 Thus: 294,000,000 = 2x.x.10x = 20x3 x = rt.3(294,000,000/20) x = 245m Since: Length = 10x = 2,450m Hmmn... that does sound about right...
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