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Post by CELS on Aug 4, 2004 23:28:14 GMT -5
3.0 Designer’s notes[/u] First of all, I’d just like to express that this is a less than scientific method of applying tithe grades to systems, but in my opinion, it’s more than good enough for such a small detail in this project. I wouldn’t even have gone to this much trouble if I didn’t actually find this a wee bit fun. (Yes, I’m sick and weird. You didn’t notice that already?) Second of all, I must stress the importance of common sense when applying tithe grades. For example, I really hope no one will ask why their fortress world with tech-level 3, their mining world with resource value 0 or agri world with population value C doesn’t fit into this system. Just to tackle the first right away, fortress worlds are very special worlds with a very special purpose. If they have a low tech level and/or a low population, the enemy can wipe these out in seconds.
Uhm, what else? Oh yes, the actual tithe classifaction. You’ll notice that you get more extra ‘points’ for a good star port / resource value (for example) on some worlds than on others. Obviously, this is done on purpose, since a good star port is vital for a good industrial world, but not really important at all for a death world (where the Adeptus Astartes would just land in the jungle with their Thunderhawks)
3.1 UWP[/u] IMPORTANT NOTE! For this system to work, it is absolutely critical that you change the UWP of your world to fit with your concept and SR. If you find a nice UWP for a world, except that you'd like a higher population, then post the modified UWP in your SR and use your modified UWP when calculating tithe grades.
When people fail to modify their UWP appropriately, this can have great consequences for wrongly estimated tithe grades and even misplaced trade routes (when we get as far as starting to calculate trade routes)
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 1:06:17 GMT -5
Looks good!
As in the Inviconburg thread you need to expand it to cover all codes. I think population wise C may be the tops, but I'd double confirm with Kage2020.
Resources, hmm. Invictonburg imports a lot of materials to build sub-light barges for IG transport, would this increase 'resources' available to them?
Or is that side of things handled differently?
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 1:13:38 GMT -5
"A" is the highest it goes on the guide i downloaded, its also the highest it goes on H&E so where did "C" come from
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 1:34:25 GMT -5
"A" is the highest it goes on the guide i downloaded, its also the highest it goes on H&E so where did "C" come from Invictonburg, 2.2 trillion. (C population multiplier 2) This is the reduced version that Kage2020 asked for. As far as I know, no other sci-fi universe has tried to fit so many onto a world so it would explain why the traveller/GURPS systems doesn't take it into account.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 1:46:33 GMT -5
So did you get special dispensation from kage then, cos the guide only goes to "A". I think Invictonburg will need its very own tithe grade thingy then
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 2:04:35 GMT -5
So did you get special dispensation from kage then, cos the guide only goes to "A". I think Invictonburg will need its very own tithe grade thingy then It is still far from being accepted, Kage2020 has expressed concern over the whole concept. As put forward it would affect all Imperial worlds and a huge chunk of the STCS. Such a huge change to the fluff is to be naturally resisted until proven. It is still far from proven, Kage2020 has a 0.1 draft of the concept, but he has a PhD to write so it may be a little while before I hear from him. As a side note, my 'Robot' thread will eventually tie in to Invictonburg concept.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 5, 2004 2:12:21 GMT -5
Terra is now a solid ball of plasteel, literally, it has levels that extand downwards for miles, I don't think trillions of people is to much of a leap when you consider that. Though i would say that worlds of such dense population would be exceedingly rare.
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Post by Philip on Aug 5, 2004 2:19:41 GMT -5
Terra is now a solid ball of plasteel, literally, it has levels that extand downwards for miles, I don't think trillions of people is to much of a leap when you consider that. Though i would say that worlds of such dense population would be exceedingly rare. Too true and I can't see any other way for such a system to work. I like epic ideas and seek to fit the science to match. I put the population of Terra at 64.8 trillion at 240 story hive blocks (Code: D! Population mod: 6)
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Post by CELS on Aug 5, 2004 4:08:51 GMT -5
Cheers. Of course, time will tell. I imagine more questions will follow as people run their own world through this. Yes, I'm still waiting for Kage to find the time to reply... Nope. The resource value indicates the resources available to the mainworld. Also, no other worlds in the system may have as a resource value that is as high as that of the mainworld.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 6, 2004 13:54:24 GMT -5
With regards to 'impatience' for my reply, here it is... this month is going to be hectic and the next even more so. I really should be getting some sleep now so that I can break the back of a background chapter tomorrow but, well... heck! What's more to say other than I like it? Nice and simple and doesn't really interfer with the current working concepts behind the Trade system (i.e. the GT:FT one which may at some point change). Not a great deal more to say other than thank you... This offers a simple and consistent system utilising the statistics from the Guide which people can subsequently apply to create the Tithe Grade for their world. Excellent... Now all you have to do is tackle aestimare! (I think that it would also be useful to consider the process of Tithe in parallel with the Trade/Economy thread...)
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Post by CELS on Aug 8, 2004 9:47:12 GMT -5
Heh. You're quite welcome. Now... Aestimare... that's the real trick, isn't it? Though I've tried several times to convince you that it's not entirely hand-wavingly vague, now that I start thinking about how to create a system for it, it's not that simple. Especially not when I'm working with the UWP. Though it's the best (and only) alternative we have, it would be quite useful to have such information like GWP and the actual amount of resources that are tithed to the Imperium. I suppose I'll have to figure out some clever formula, like (Population * Tech level * 0.5 Resource value) * 10 * Tithe grade or something
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 8, 2004 12:06:40 GMT -5
Remember, also, that we have at present the concepts of GWP and BTN from the proposed economy thread... we'll just have to see whether zholud comes up with something that is useable to the project and how quickly he can do so!
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 9, 2004 3:33:07 GMT -5
Hive Worlds- Population: B-C, Tech level: 8-A Industrial worlds- Population: A-B, Tech level 7-A Civilised Worlds- Population: 8-B, Tech level: 3-A Mining worlds- Population: 8-B, Tech level 3-A, Resource value: 5-D+ Garden worlds- Population: 8-9, Tech level 3-A Agri worlds- Population: 5-7, Tech level 8-A, Trade code Ag Feral worlds- Population: 6-7, Tech level 1 Death worlds- Population: 4-8, Tech level 2-A Feudal worlds- Population: 8-9, Tech level 1-2 Fortress worlds- Population: 7-B, Tech level 7-A, and lots of guns! HAHA! Please note the following classifications as an effort to integrate it into the Economy thread, even though that might be changing (slightly, hopefully) shortly. Trade classifications note clusters of economically meaningful world characteristics - important natural features that can influence a world's comparative advantage and pattern of trade.
Agricultural (Ag): Producer of foodstuffs. Earthlike terrestrial world with Thin to Very Dense atmosphere (0.43-2.49 atm), surface water 35-84% and population 100,000-99,999,999 (5-7).
Asteroid Belt (As): Many small "worldlets" in place of a single world; rockball planetoids with diamters under 124 miles.
Barren World (Ba): No population (0), government or law (0,0 respectively).
Desert World (De): No water. A desert world has Very Thin or greater atmosphere (>0.09 atm) and surface water 4% or less.
Extreme (Ex): Inhospitable planet, requiring the use of domed habitats. Vacc suits or other protection require to venture outside. Any of: diameter is <500 miles; atmosphere is Trace or less (<0.10atm). Superdense or greater (>2.50 atm), corrosive or exotic; surface water <5%. If a world is As, De, Fl, Ic or Va then it is also considered Ex.
Exotic Ocean (Eo): Oceans composed of fluids other than water. A greenhouse or hostile world with an exotic or corrosive atmosphere and surface "water" >5%.
High Population (Hi): Populatin of one billion or more (9+).
Ice-capped (Ic): Hydrographics contained in polar ice caps. Any icy rockball world with a Trade atmosphere or less (<0.10atm) and surface water >5%.
Industrial (In): Heavy industry forms a major part of local production. Trace or less (<0.10 atm) or polluted atmosphere, and a population of one billion or more (9+).
Low Population (Lo): Population less than 10,000 (3 or less).
Nonagricultural (Na): Dependent on synthetic food production and imports. Very Thin atmosphere or less (<0.43 atm), surface water <35%, population of one million or more (6+).
Nonindustrial (Ni): Population less than 10,000,000 (<6).
Poor (Po): Low-grade living conditions. Very Thin or Thin atmosphere (0.10-0.80 atm) and surface water from 5-35%.
Rich (Ri): High-grade living conditions. Earthlike terrestrial world with Standard to Very Dense atmosphere (0.81-2.49 atm), population of 1,000,000-999,999,999 (6-8) and a moderate to high level of government organisation (2-5).And also, out of interest, the Resource level of the system and not the mainworld should be the "Resources" value, and not one that might be sub-generated on an individual world. Anargo, therefore, becomes Exactis Tertius. (The value has been altered in the SR for simplicity, though.) Please also note that Economy thread for comments regarding the size of the tithe relative to the GWP, as well as length and methods of 'payment'.
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Post by zholud on Aug 9, 2004 4:31:34 GMT -5
CELS I loudly applaud you for the work done on tithes. Even if it can significantly change later, this is a very good… er, excellent first guesstimate. I’m not yet fully with catching up all threads so I’ll be quick now. We have hierarchical system for tithes, we have fine-tuning with what CELS did. Now we should decide on what percent of GWP different tithes are and to what is their base (person is the base for personal tax). Any ideas?
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Post by CELS on Aug 9, 2004 8:31:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words, Zholud. It's good to see that people are still interested in doing stuff like this, which makes the project all the more interesting as opposed to limiting it to the creation of worlds and IG regiments. Which is funny, considering the latter is why I got involved in the first place ;D And thanks for the list, Kage. It will be most helpful when I revise my system. Please note that I'm not at all set on keeping the current version, so I'm always looking to improve the current system. For example, I'm a bit worried that the Prima, Extremis and Particular grades are too restricted, so I'm looking forward to seeing more tithe grades calculated for more worlds in the sector. If 80% of them end up as being Tertius or Secondus, that might be a bad sign. Zholud, I was actually hoping you'd have some ideas for figuring out how to calculate the value of tithes, using GWP. It's your area of expertise after all, and though I'm not saying you're the only one who can do it, I think it would be prudent to hear the words of the educated first, rather than those who barely grasp the concept of GWP Personally, I have no idea whatsoever on what would be too high a tithe grade in terms of GWP. 5%? 10%? And perhaps it's not appropriate to calculate tithes in percentage of GWP. After all, I imagine that agri-worlds might tithe as much as 20-40% of their GWP, whilst this is probably totally unreasonable for a hiveworld with the same tithe grade.
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