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Post by zholud on Aug 9, 2004 21:07:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words, Zholud. It's good to see that people are still interested in doing stuff like this, which makes the project all the more interesting as opposed to limiting it to the creation of worlds and IG regiments. Which is funny, considering the latter is why I got involved in the first place ;D Its not only you who favours this stuff I am always fascinated with argubate on wider picture, including stuff like education in the Imperium and the like. Another thing that I’m often out of time to discuss topics in full. If 80% of them end up as being Tertius or Secondus, that might be a bad sign. Not necessary, after all most worlds are average so if we don’t have desire to maximise variability of tithe grades it’s ok. Zholud, I was actually hoping you'd have some ideas for figuring out how to calculate the value of tithes, using GWP. It's your area of expertise after all, and though I'm not saying you're the only one who can do it, I think it would be prudent to hear the words of the educated first, rather than those who barely grasp the concept of GWP Right now I think that the tithe determined by off-world Administratum agents, who come each n years/decades/centuries, make census and estimations of productivity and then set lump-sum tax (i.e. already predetermined amount of money/goods to pay irrespectively of the real GWP during period). This is done to ensure supply of commodities necessary to Imperium… like they know that each year Meksum has to supply 10mn lasguns/toasters, so the IG barges go here to get guns… and governor cannot simply say, ‘sorry guys, I have economy in depression this year, only 2mn are available as 10% of my GWP’ I also have and idea of tax refunds and tax credit adding to the system. This means that mining colony has ‘plan’ to pay tithe say 10mn tons of ore. This ore is used in industrial world to produce goods for Imperium. The industrial world get these 10mn tons and ‘pays’ with IOU notes, which mining colony later presents to Administratum as its tithe. Also I think that feral/feudal/medieval worlds can pay with actual imperial currency. Idea is similar to medieval taxes collected by local aristocracy that needed real money to pay mercenaries, by luxuries, etc. The peasants usually used barter (goods-goods exchange) without money and had to enter open markets in cities to sell their products to get money for this tax. The Imperium has little good from high quality full-plate medieval armour or great stone axe, so they are left to off-world traders, who come on these planets, buy what they want and pay with currency.
Personally, I have no idea whatsoever on what would be too high a tithe grade in terms of GWP. 5%? 10%? Oh, this is very hard question that can be answered several ways. We want to determine, how much goes off-world and where it goes and how much remains on the planet, spend on shrines, Administratum buildings, imperial servants salary. Real world European medieval budgets and thus tax burden were very low, about 3-6% of GDP, but they had no need to pay pensions and similar social payments at all, which now are the significant part of budgets. Now budgets in the world are from 9% to 60% of GDP, depending on country in question.
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Post by CELS on Aug 11, 2004 2:25:31 GMT -5
Its not only you who favours this stuff Glad to hear it. One starts to wonder sometimes Ah yes.... time. Let's all retire early and work on the ASP? Who's with me? That's true, but we should cover the entire specter, shouldn't we? Extremis and Particular, by the sound of the name, are probably very rare indeed. We might not have more than one or two worlds in the sector within this class. But Prima through Tertius sounds like something far more common, and I'm worried if none but a couple of worlds have Prima or above. Definitely. But then again, if they assess that Meksum has had a huge economical disaster, they are likely to decrease the tithes. Sounds likely, except I'm quite sure that the Administratum would be highly involved in both the delivery and receiving of tithed minerals. This would prevent people from claiming that they have delivered more than they actually have, or received less than they actually have. So when Meksum has to tithe 1 million lasguns to Castellan, there are members from the Administratum which are present during the entire delivery to verify the process. Thus, there is no need for IOU notes. Do you think that it would be up to Meksum to deliver the lasguns though, or would Imperial transports come to collect them? But which traders with the technology and resources to own their own star ship would be interested in full-plate armour? I can imagine that a few collectors would be interested, but enough for the world to make enough money to actually tithe to the Imperium? Probably not. Tax burden? What does this mean? The tax payed by the citizens? Isn't that entirely irrelevant for this question? Wouldn't it be more appropriate to look at what worlds pay in international loans? I know there are a lot of worlds in south america, africa and asia which owe the 'western world' a whole lot of money. How much of their GWP goes to paying back these loans?
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Post by zholud on Aug 11, 2004 5:45:04 GMT -5
Ah yes.... time. Let's all retire early and work on the ASP? Who's with me? I’m with you but at the present I try to apply for one more job for me … not that I’m greedy or something, I just what to get everything I can it terms of job reputation… but that’s off-topic. That's true, but we should cover the entire specter, shouldn't we? Extremis and Particular, by the sound of the name, are probably very rare indeed. No problem, I guess at later date we can take the most common tithe type(s), get output per unit of labour (GWP/population as a proxy) rank them on this ratio and then cut top n% or down n% and give them neighbouring tithe. Idea is that with close prices across Imperium higher productivity allows to extract more from the planet as tithe and still let population to survive (and even live). Definitely. But then again, if they assess that Meksum has had a huge economical disaster, they are likely to decrease the tithes. If Meksum got disaster, its government was bad (so executed with all their kin) and for a new governor a new tithe is set. This encourages governors not to fail Sounds likely, except I'm quite sure that the Administratum would be highly involved in both the delivery and receiving of tithed minerals. I’ve set this question above. We should decide, whether tithed commodities are transported by government or private traders, who are obligated by their Charter to do this. We know that only government transports such parts of tithe as psykers (black ships), IG regiments (Navy barges). What I guess that both public and private ships transport tithed commodities. So when Meksum has to tithe 1 million lasguns to Castellan, there are members from the Administratum which are present during the entire delivery to verify the process. Thus, there is no need for IOU notes. Don’t forget extreme bureaucratisation of Imperium, which cries out for documents in any form. So I guess both agents and notes are present. Do you think that it would be up to Meksum to deliver the lasguns though, or would Imperial transports come to collect them? With specific case of lasguns, I guess that IG barges take them when they pass by or select shuttle ships that intersect their route with those barges. But which traders with the technology and resources to own their own star ship would be interested in full-plate armour? I can imagine that a few collectors would be interested, but enough for the world to make enough money to actually tithe to the Imperium? Probably not. That the point of trader – he comes, get there unusual gems, funny armour, works of art, archeotech… anything that he likes and then he pays with hard cold cash. Clear? Tax burden? What does this mean? This mean what percent of your hard earned money you should give up to government. The more it takes usually the lower in desire to work more… unless you have to work more to survive. The tax payed by the citizens? Isn't that entirely irrelevant for this question? As I said this taxes affect stimuli for work and thus output. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to look at what worlds pay in international loans? I know there are a lot of worlds in south america, africa and asia which owe the 'western world' a whole lot of money. How much of their GWP goes to paying back these loans? In real world they only postpone and reschedule their debt and are sometimes unable to repay it ever. So they don’t pay… I see your point but at the moment I cannot directly apply this to 40k
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Post by Sojourner on Sept 23, 2004 4:14:39 GMT -5
Could I offer a summarised idea for the working of the tithe system?
The first point is the issue of supply and demand. How does the demand function?
Well, the possibility is that a world or organisation may 'petition' for a quantity of goods that it is unable to afford to buy on the open market. This might be communicated via the local trade networks or by direct query to the Administratum - the latter case being that the world is asking that the goods be taken from their neighbours, rather than being donated.
Now, a region's tithe administrator will have a database of the requisition orders levied in the area, and his general duties will be to assess which producer is best able to supply these orders, that is, how to get the goods with the greatest efficiency possible. Of course, all the orders communicated will have to be assessed for legitimacy by a seperate body. It will also be recorded by the world's lexicographers which orders have already been satisfied voluntarily, thus reducing their outstanding debt.
If a world is unable to make up its tithe debt for that period by supplying requisitions, either because it is economically unviable or because there are no orders that it is capable of supplying, it will be charged a bill in cash, which will go into the Administratum 'pot' and be spent on the (relatively) open market to acquire remaining goods and indeed intangible assets such as information and communication, or donated to those organisations in need of funding.
How does this sound? Workable? In need of amendment? Or simply a load of tosh?
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Post by zholud on Sept 24, 2004 7:17:03 GMT -5
Could I offer a summarised idea for the working of the tithe system? Of course you could. Whether it is close to reality is another matter joking… it is very nice that you thought about that problem and share results with others. The first point is the issue of supply and demand. How does the demand function? I guess it function as reverse function of price of commodity in question. Well, the possibility is that a world or organisation may 'petition' for a quantity of goods that it is unable to afford to buy on the open market. The main problem is if it actually needs to do all this paperwork on sector level, especially considering the periods of time needed to Imperium and possibly sector commanders (or how they are called) to approve any decision. If there are court cases that wait for generations than world, which asks for food may be dead by then. It is entirely likely that social planner having perfect information is able to optimally distribute resources. But the same happens with free market price setting as well. So all participants of Imperium economy may be supplied with funny papers with ‘I owe you’ one them, and then the system is running – Imperium gives this papers for final good, either IG regiment, lasgun or ship, producer of this product gives paper to his supplier and so on. Each planet has to submit given number of these papers back to Imperium = tithes…
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Post by Sojourner on Sept 24, 2004 7:54:11 GMT -5
I was thinking of it more as a 'periodic' type thing, that is, the petition is for a certain quantity of goods per unit of time, until specified otherwise. It might take a while to get the order through to the supplier, but this would happen on the open market too as a fact of life, but once you have that link, the distribution channel is open and stays that way as long as the trade network is maintained.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 21, 2004 10:25:39 GMT -5
I would think they're in trouble.
Reminds me of a line in a certain Pratchett book.
"The tax was 200 dollars, payable yearly, per capita. If per capita was a problem, de capita could be arranged."
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Post by Zholud on Dec 21, 2004 11:21:59 GMT -5
I was thinking of it more as a 'periodic' type thing, that is, the petition is for a certain quantity of goods per unit of time, until specified otherwise. The problem is how this specific amount of specific commodity is determined. While the Imperium is cruel in its means it is not (overly) stupid and won’t kill goose that lays golden eggs. Thus they determine the amounts on basis of capacities and not only their needs.
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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 21, 2004 19:19:10 GMT -5
This is what the project is all about and the reason that I have found it sometimes demoralising, more so when compounded about increasing compartmentalisation between 'interest groups'. Well, interest group and me... Once again, the problem that we have is that instead of having a framework into which we can 'port things, we have 'things' that a framework must be bent aroun. This is another reason that I have, for the most part, avoided uploading SR to the Archive. Well, that and one other reason... (Not wanting to wade through the thread but wait until I see it as an SR.) I would imagine that the original tithe is assessed by adeptus administratum agents and then, subsequently, is reviewed by the adeptus administratum presence upon the world so as not to require overt use of resources to transport these chappies - and chappesses - around. This also allows more potential for coruption, which is endemic throughout the Imperium. Since, for the most part, GWP is a function of tech and population (at least in the currently suggested broad system), this means that ultimately any catastrophic event is going to impact upon a culture to produce a tithe... It's a great way to look into general mismanagement! This gets into a later point about who does the actual shipping and how things get shipped around. Obviously this is not even remotely covered in the 'fluff', or at least not in any way as to be meaningful. I'll deal with this later since, reasonably, while my opinion on the size of the Civil Fleet has not necessarily changed nor the function, I have been reminded of the true size of the Merchant Fleet thereby requiring a rethink. That doesn't quite seem to make a great deal of sense... The mining world is given a period-tithe, which it fulfills, then subsequently pays its tithe with an IOU because the goods were used by the Imperium? Surely we should remind ourselves that the tithe is distributed around the Imperium and may not be specifically linked to 'economy' in that way. That is to say that the indistrial world as part of its tithe my be required to utilise that 10M tonnes of ore to produce industrial goods as part of its tithe. That does not say, however, that they do not have their own economy, merely that the tithe requires a substantial part of their World Product. What does a feral/feudal/medieval world have that is worth tithing? How is it useful to the Imperium? Do they have the ability to actually take a part in the economy of the Imperium, or do they merely exist? Care must be taken, here. The tithe requires a proportion of the total GWP of the planet, true, but should not be thought of as an asset that necessarily produces a return. If we did that then there would be some changes made! True, but balanced against this is the ability of 'local' agents to be able to determine grand shifts in tithe. This is about the only place that the Astropthic Network really comes into play... basically, we must question the turnover of grand policy decision and, indeed, at which level policy decision may take place. Authenticity is an incredible motivator. Modern technology can produce certain goods with far greater precision then they could in the past, but still the antique is desired and even mightily saught after. Again, low-tech worlds produce low tech goods... but again their ability to actually transport said material, i.e. whether they are an integral part of 'interstellar economy' must necessarily be questioned. For someone whose specific knowledge on this question is limited, I'd have to agree. The 'tax burden' of a citizen is not a concern for the adeptus administratum. All they are interested in is how much of a given thing - and the nature of that thing - that a world could reasonably produce and what they can do with it. Guns, blast your eyes! It's guns I tell you! Why would prices be close and why does that necessarily affect the tithe? Worlds with higher technology can quite reasonably produce given goods at a lower price than a lower tech world, though would likely produce those goods that are of primary interest (i.e. high tech goods). So maybe that's the argument anyway...
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Post by Zholud on Dec 22, 2004 3:31:33 GMT -5
That doesn't quite seem to make a great deal of sense... The mining world is given a period-tithe, which it fulfills, then subsequently pays its tithe with an IOU because the goods were used by the Imperium? The question is how much headache the Administratum wants to have. The Imperium per se has no need in ore or something like, but it needs ships and guns and apple pie… finished products only. Thus why to take ore and then choose to whom you should give it? It is better to allow private traders to transfer ore to highest bidder, who in the end does these guns or pies. Am I clearer now? What does a feral/feudal/medieval world have that is worth tithing? How is it useful to the Imperium? My point as well. However, we know that in line with official fluff they have positive tithe levels. Thus they have to pay. But their output is usually bears no value for the Imperium. Unlike cash that can be used as payment to e.g. Mechanicus…
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 22, 2004 7:12:14 GMT -5
A donation is part of a tithe. If you step forward of your own accord to fulfil a petition from a neighbour, that donation is deducted from your tithe requirement for the period (however long that may be). If nobody comes forward, the Administratum will pick a world and take the goods by mandate. It's always beneficial to voluntarily satisfy your tithe requirement, firstly because you get to choose to a certain extent what you give and thus minimise your costs, and secondly it keeps you in the Administratum's good books as a cooperative partner rather than a stubborn pedant who repeatedly needs reminding of their obligations.
The value of the tithe you fulfil is gauged by its cost to you. If the government of a given world pays a private firm on its own planet for a quantity of goods then ships them to a consumer free of charge, this is expensive and as such will fulfil a large proportion of their tithe. As a world may also fulfil tithe by trade agreements, for example, agreeing to sell a shipment at cost price to the same consumer, this is still a donation as it still costs the government, but as they are still receiving some reparation the tithe contribution of this transaction is reduced.
Thus emerges a problem. Why should a world use these trade agreements to fulfil their needs when they can simply demand goods for free? The answer: Your own tithe requirement increases with the tithe value you receive. If you get something for nothing, you'll be expected to return the same value to the Imperium. If you at least make some contribution to the donor, you reduce your own contribution to the tithe system.
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Post by CELS on Dec 22, 2004 8:21:09 GMT -5
Not to mention that the quality of the goods you receive might often be lower than what you could make yourself. Like, if you choose to skip agriculture on your industrial world and wait for some agriworlds to feed you, instead of eating grox beef with chips, you'll be eating algae paste with sea weed. Instead of driving a fancy four-wheel drive with leather seats, you'll be driving the pain-in-the-ass Soviet-style three-wheeled mopeds.
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 22, 2004 9:07:23 GMT -5
Quite possibly. I daresay a broad specification would be included in the petition, however. I'm sure there are regulations on how specific a petition can be.
Also, I can't see very much trade of end-user manufactured goods going on. Tithing is more useful for commodities because, as you suggested, you'll end up getting useless junk you don't want if you try dealing in consumer goods.
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Post by CELS on Dec 22, 2004 9:34:47 GMT -5
The Imperium per se has no need in ore or something like, but it needs ships and guns and apple pie… finished products only. Also, I can't see very much trade of end-user manufactured goods going on. Tithing is more useful for commodities because, as you suggested, you'll end up getting useless junk you don't want if you try dealing in consumer goods. Gentlemen... present your arguments
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 22, 2004 10:17:58 GMT -5
OK, here we go...
It is in the interests of the Imperium to have the goods required by its fleets, armies and offices produced in the most efficient manner possible. In time-honoured fashion, this involves bringing the materials to the best manufacturer instead of vice versa. As such, and because most raw materials are universally similar, we are most likely to see large volumes of raw materials being moved about and the goods produced in situ where the required infrastructure is present.
Conversely, it is inappropriate to tithe large volumes of manufactured goods, other than those destined for galactic service in the armed forces, as most consumer goods are designed with the local recipients in mind and as such, are likely to be unsuitable for use on other planets by virtue of their differing cultures, environments and technological base.
The prosecution rests.
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