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Post by Kage2020 on Dec 27, 2003 10:36:10 GMT -5
A thread that cropped up in Portent was the concept of the tithe, both what it meant and how it might be applied to the 40k universe and, here, specifically to the ASP. Does anyone have a list of the tithe grades? Can anyway offer a reasonable suggestion as to how they are calculated and, more specifically, how the generic UWP statistics for the ASP can be used to generate such a consistent tithe grade? Also we would need to link this into the concept of the Merchant Fleet, i.e. the numbers, the trade routes, etc. Any thoughts on this? Kage
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Post by CELS on Dec 31, 2003 11:20:02 GMT -5
I've done some reserach, and here's what the rulebook had to offer on the subject. A list of tithes for typical Imperial worlds (from the Worlds of the Imperium article, 3rd Ed rulebook)
Hive Worlds - Decuma Particular- Exactis Extremis Civilised worlds - Solutio Extremis - Exactis Tertius Agri worlds - Exactis Prima - Exactis Particular Feral Worlds - Solutio Tertius Dead worlds - Aptus Non Death world - Solutio Tertius - Solutio Prima Research status - Aptus Non Feudal worlds - Solutio Prima - Solutio Extremis Forge worlds - Aptus Non Industrial worlds - Exactis Tertius - Exactis Particular
Note: The rulebook does not mention industrial worlds, but the EoT campaign maps do. Perhaps we should rename our factory worlds to industrial worlds?
Using this list as a base, I've written a ranking of Tithe grades. The top is the highest, the bottom is the lowest.
Exactis Extremis Exactis Particular Exactis Prima Exactis Secondus Exactis Tertius Solutio Extremis Solutio Prima Solutio Secondus Solutio Tertius Adeptus Non
One thing I haven't quite decided on, is the Tithe Grade Decuma particular. Now, I've looked up the words Decuma, Exactis and Solutio in my latin dictionary, and they're all different words for taxes and payments, but give no clue to whether Decuma is more or less than Exactis or Solutio. Perhaps there should be a third degree, Decuma Tertius through Decuma Particular, between Exactis and Solutio. Or perhaps Decuma is the highest degree of tithe...
Thoughts?
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 31, 2003 12:19:10 GMT -5
Perhaps Decuma is a different type of tithe...
Is there any indication of the context of each word?
Solutio, Decuma and Exactis might refer to financial, capital and military tithes, or any combination.
Exactis, given its modern connotations, seems to me to be appropriate for military tithes. Solutio, seems to be a root of solution, implying liquid, i.e. liquid assets i.e. cash.
I may be going out on a limb a little here but the idea stands.
Different types of tithes, each with a different level
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Post by CELS on Dec 31, 2003 12:44:17 GMT -5
Wow, that's pretty clever. Let me tell you what my dictionary says. Decuma. A tenth part, tithe. 1) As an offering to the Gods. 2) A Tax paid by landowners in the provinces. 3) A Largess bestowed on the people. Exactis (couldn't find Exactis, but under Exactio..) 1) Driving out, expulsion. 2) A demanding, exacting, especially a) collecting of debts, tribute b) in general, management, direction Solutio. 1) A loosening, linguae. 2) A paying, payment. 3) A solution, explanation. Solutio, Decuma and Exactis might refer to financial, capital and military tithes, or any combination. Exactis, given its modern connotations, seems to me to be appropriate for military tithes. Solutio, seems to be a root of solution, implying liquid, i.e. liquid assets i.e. cash. A damn good idea! The only problem with this, is that it would mean that Agri worlds mainly pay tithe in form of military assets, and feral worlds in form of cash or credit... doesn't sound quite right, does it?
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Post by Sojourner on Dec 31, 2003 14:21:20 GMT -5
Maybe it's the opposite way round, then.
I was just using the root derivative as an example of what I meant, not an actual suggestion as it were.
In any case, different worlds must pay different types of tithes, as their product is different. Maybe it's more the form that 'Decuma' is simply products, Solutio being products AND cash, and Exactis meaning products AND cash AND soldiery.
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Post by zholud on Dec 31, 2003 10:28:29 GMT -5
The GW never made detail description of tithe system, creating some stupid rip-offs from it, one of the most prominent examples being increase in tithe payments in order to lull the vigilance of the Imperium or suddenly stating that tithe are only psykers on the black ships. There are two main ideas on tithe, or lets face it, tax. First we should find the base. The variants are: average individual incomes, gross value added of the planet, or just dull lump sum tax (I vote for the latter). Second is difference between monetary value vs. predetermined amounts of the list of goods and services. I vote for the mix of two, which in turn is linked to my currency approach (should I post it here, BTW?).
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 4:04:46 GMT -5
First off, CELS, thank you for taking up the gauntlet as it were. I cannot quite remember whether if it was you that did so in the original thread on Portent but, regardless, thanks... Before continuing to read this thread - remember that I tend to reply to things sequentially as I read - the following things spring to mind. Pulp latin is one of those... With that in mind Exactis smacks of 'to exact' or 'that which is to be exacted'. In this case the designations tertius to prima do sound like a scale so, yes, I like this. The extremis and particular designations are something that at the moment I see as specialised forms of tithes and, perhaps, it might be best to incorporate this into processes as well as static events, as it were. Extremis, for example, might be most interesting if it were a temporary designation applied during, say, extended and large-scale conflict in which significant fractions of the economic output of worlds were given over towards the Imperium... (As a type this I realise that specific examples in the 'fluff' might invalidate this concept, but I thought that I would mention it anyway.) In this same light the particular grade might be representative of a specific item or group of items that are required as tithe. Worlds whose main output is in the form of, say, Leman Russ tanks... or whatever...? As with AF-Metallus (whose comments I saw when I hit 'reply') the use of solutio seems to be the root for 'solution', in which case it seems to imply a specific reaction to events or processes... Perhaps the best place to look, then, would be to the Roman period which in my mind is the single best place to look for general information on the Imperium. This is an interesting point and perhaps the solution that we are looking for. Hmmn, this smacks of something to the adeptus ministorum when put in these terms. This sounds like what we are more used to with in terms of the Imperium and its tithe. Hmmn... kind of ties in to what I said above, but not really... Tithe in the 40k context has always struck me as something that is a level above individual taxation, the latter of which is more a manifestation of individual socio-economic policy by the Imperial Commander. It would seem relevant, so I would say 'yes' unless it is going to obfuscate the discussion into a parallel one about the nature of currency and economy... Okay, they're both obviously linked, but still... Presently I can see a need for planetary application of the economic obligations of the tithe (this thread) and the individual payment of tithe (more a concept of economy). Kage
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Post by zholud on Jan 1, 2004 9:29:10 GMT -5
During the Great Crusade Emperor’s blessed forces of Adeptus Astartes and Imperial Guard had a hard time fighting the enemies of mankind – foul alien scum, warped monsters of Immaterium and dirty saboteurs and sweet-tongued heretics, blind to Emperor light. And if the battle may be won by courage and berserk fury, the war, especially such huge war of attrition as liberation of countless thousands of worlds, is won on homeland front only, because even glorious Space Marine is just a fighting fool without ammunition and food. Vast silver fleets, so frightening in their devastating ferocity became just billion tons of wasted metal without repair and re-fuelling. And despite the vigor and rightfulness, Imperial servants got more and more problems, when they came time and time again and confiscated necessary food, manpower or vessels from newly liberated worlds, or sequestered manufacturing facilities. Such actions caused civil unrest and in some places this even had grown up to the open rebellion. In order to keep up a momentum, something had to be done and done really fast, because while these problems were of minor importance, Imperium just sent one or two Astartes Companies or regiments of the blessed Imperial Guard, however when such ‘pacification’ measures began to cost over a tenth part of total Imperial forces the other way was found. The Administratum started to issue Imperial War Bonds which could serve as means of payment on predetermined rate for the large list of goods and services, called the register of hundred hundreds articles. Since that time appeared imperial currency, known as Imperial Credit in Necromundain Sector and its main trading partners, Denary Imperialis throughout the Segmentum Obscurus, holo-clip on Port Maw and a hundred other different names. And even now, after ten millennia of reign of our magnificent Imperium, this unit of measure is used in order to calculate tithes, munitions and food rations needed for gathered Imperial Guard regiments, payments for Navy vessels repair and so on. Local currencies still allowed to exist, but all inter-planet trade and transfers should be accounted only in Imperial currency. This not only simplify the calculations, but also improves supervision by Administratum, and vigorous monitoring prevents emergence of interest groups rich enough to wage personal wars or control entire sub-sectors with the power of money as such activities will lead to ultimate heresies and possible contacts with grimy Xenos or even the Warp Powers.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 12:06:04 GMT -5
I've read it but it does little to me... I need to see how it is applied. Perhaps this is in part because I'm reading about the economics of the so-called "Industrial Revolution" at the moment. On a personal note Imperial currency in terms of official name is the Imperial denarii... Kage
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Post by CELS on Jan 1, 2004 15:50:36 GMT -5
First off, CELS, thank you for taking up the gauntlet as it were. I cannot quite remember whether if it was you that did so in the original thread on Portent but, regardless, thanks... Nope. No problems though- I have to up my post count somehow! ;D With that in mind Exactis smacks of 'to exact' or 'that which is to be exacted'. In this case the designations tertius to prima do sound like a scale so, yes, I like this. The extremis and particular designations are something that at the moment I see as specialised forms of tithes and, perhaps, it might be best to incorporate this into processes as well as static events, as it were. Oooh, didn't think of that. One thing that you should be mindful of when suggesting things like this, is how the tithes are divided in the Worlds of the Imperium article in the 3rd ed rulebook. As I wrote in my original post, one type of world might get the designation 'Exactis Prima - Exactis Particular'. If 'particular' and 'extremis' are specialised forms of tithes, one would think that all planet classes could potentially get this designation. From the way it is written in the rulebook, it actually seems like it's a simple, one-dimensional ranking system. Whether the world pays its taxes in the form of currency, iron ore, grox steaks or Guardsmen, it is all judged on this scale. Perhaps one Guardsman is worth two hundred grox steaks, or a thousand credits. Who knows... Extremis, for example, might be most interesting if it were a temporary designation applied during, say, extended and large-scale conflict in which significant fractions of the economic output of worlds were given over towards the Imperium... (As a type this I realise that specific examples in the 'fluff' might invalidate this concept, but I thought that I would mention it anyway.) It's perfectly logical, but we should try to follow the system as GW used it. In this same light the particular grade might be representative of a specific item or group of items that are required as tithe. Worlds whose main output is in the form of, say, Leman Russ tanks... or whatever...? If we are going in that direction... I thought most, if not all, worlds pay their tithes in other forms than denarii.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 1, 2004 17:02:06 GMT -5
Oooh, didn't think of that. One thing that you should be mindful of when suggesting things like this, is how the tithes are divided in the Worlds of the Imperium article in the 3rd ed rulebook. As I wrote in my original post, one type of world might get the designation 'Exactis Prima - Exactis Particular'. One thing that you have to remember is that I do not have ready access to this material. Despite this, however, the above tithe suggestion would not be inappropriate given the original comments. I'm not saying that these comments are in anway more 'true' than anything else, however... If 'particular' and 'extremis' are specialised forms of tithes, one would think that all planet classes could potentially get this designation. I offer suggestions only. From my initial skim of the rulebook I get the impression that everything is one-dimensional and, or the most part, not really designed to be applicable to anything but the wargame. In other words it sounds 'cool' alone... But out of that we must determine not only a system that is applicable to the feel of the universe but, also, one that integrates as much as possible to the information presented in the guide.pdf... ...Remember that we're trying to create integrated and consistent information, here... From the way it is written in the rulebook, it actually seems like it's a simple, one-dimensional ranking system. Whether the world pays its taxes in the form of currency, iron ore, grox steaks or Guardsmen, it is all judged on this scale. It's perfectly logical, but we should try to follow the system as GW used it. I await to see consistent guidelines that are detailed... Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 2, 2004 3:33:35 GMT -5
Does 'particular' have the same connotations in latin as in english?
If so, perhaps 'particular' is a permit to draw whatever tithe is deemed necessary at the time?
With 'extremis' being 'take all that you possibly can whether you need it or not'. Possibly a mechanism of denying such resources to local groups.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 2, 2004 4:16:41 GMT -5
Does 'particular' have the same connotations in latin as in english? If so, perhaps 'particular' is a permit to draw whatever tithe is deemed necessary at the time? That's another possibility, although it would offer in a level of uncertainity in terms of the bureaucracy, i.e. how often would this change, etc... ? Kage
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Post by Sojourner on Jan 2, 2004 4:23:17 GMT -5
Depends how often the tithe situation is reviewed; could be at the start of every financial year for more beaurocratic planets, to a region of a few hours for worlds where economic variables are revised automatically every time a shipment enters or leaves.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jan 2, 2004 5:10:13 GMT -5
Put that way I'm less convinced, myself... Kage
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