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Post by zholud on Aug 25, 2004 0:25:06 GMT -5
Oh, guys I got tired while reading this thread, but here are my comments, brief ones, described in length upon interest announced. - Philip system vs. GURPS TLs – I have to admit I dislike both in their present stance. Philip’s shows psychic age as continuation to machine age, while I think they had parallel development. Same reason for TLs – if e.g. Eldar found the way to enchant bronze with warp (they are psychic race after all!) to upgrade its properties they may never get even TL5 in metallurgy… or warp-accelerator used by Orks (red unz go fasta ) that just doesn’t fit classic GRPS TL as I know it (I admit lack of knowledge). Main point – we have to end-up with 40k tech levels, borrowing outside but leaving it in 40k-verse way
- Jumps depend on lots of other properties of both space and warp in entry/exit points, including massive objects, dense space (i.e. dust clouds), warp storms, warp currents, starting speed, etc. moreover I guess we have to use some distribution of probabilities and show preciseness of exist, time of travel and calamities as function of length of travel and currents in the region. Never use additives, or you’ll end up with 120% one day
- Industrial revolution – its more convenience thing and semantics… we with Kage for example differ our view on end of medieval period by centuries, so it is always better to point on things/dates not name.
Kage, drop me on Neolithic revolution, I want to compare with economists say on it
- 300 ships – I guess it is quite nice guesstimate on warp-capable ships… how many of them with Navigators?
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 0:34:48 GMT -5
Looks good philip, I certantly dont have any problem with those numbers. But I would lose the Prince/ King thing for navigator ranks if thats what they are, stick with Lord/elder and Patriarch/Matriach I picked them because they are 'Nobles', but any title of similar sounding authority will do. Perhaps its a distinction between how houses name their leaders, as I'm sure each house would have its own 'flavour'? Philip system vs. GURPS TLs – I have to admit I dislike both in their present stance. Philip’s shows psychic age as continuation to machine age, while I think they had parallel development. Same reason for TLs – if e.g. Eldar found the way to enchant bronze with warp (they are psychic race after all!) to upgrade its properties they may never get even TL5 in metallurgy… or warp-accelerator used by Orks (red unz go fasta ) that just doesn’t fit classic GRPS TL as I know it (I admit lack of knowledge). Main point – we have to end-up with 40k tech levels, borrowing outside but leaving it in 40k-verse way Actually it was the 'Navigator programme' that was a continuation of the 'machine age'. GAoT needed navigators only when the needed to make a safer warp jumps. Before the invention of warp engine (and warp jumps) Navigators were not required (or even invented, and scientist had no a reason to even contemplate their invention). It seems obvious that they turn up after the invention of warp engine and warp jumps. I put Navigator at 'P1' but full on Psykers are P2. Psykers have been around since before C3 'Rise of the Artisans' and there was probably a gifted caveman or two. I see Navigators as 'enhanced' P1 Psykers (some may even have P2 abilities) The Eldar are P3 and probably have always been so, they could create wraithbone from the get go, and developed psychometric engineering when humans were still banging rocks together to make water ( ).
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Post by zholud on Aug 25, 2004 4:17:35 GMT -5
Actually it was the 'Navigator programme' that was a continuation of the 'machine age'. GAoT needed navigators only when the needed to make a safer warp jumps. Agreed, especially if you say safer and much longer warp jumps. This comes from my sail interpretation of Geller field. I put Navigator at 'P1' but full on Psykers are P2. Psykers, at least sanctioned psykers in BL novels/stories are never able to steer the warp for navigating. So, they aren’t upgrade anyway. Psykers have been around since before C3 'Rise of the Artisans' Earlier, Emperor was hanging around in 8,000 B.C. I see Navigators as 'enhanced' P1 Psykers (some may even have P2 abilities) I again disagree with that. For me navigators aren’t psykers. E.g. their powers aren’t connected in the fluff (no navigator throws fireballs/read thoughts/moves chair/wins regicide on constant basis; no psyker guides warp-ship). The Eldar are P3 and probably have always been so, they could create wraithbone from the get go, and developed psychometric engineering when humans were still banging rocks together to make water ( ). Problem with Eldar and warp is that usage of psychic powers could have allowed them possibly to miss industrial age and shift from craftsmanship to post-industrial society.
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 4:50:58 GMT -5
I agree with what you are saying, but;
Its a little more complex than that.
The P1/P2/P3 is just a set of abilities. I imagine that even the most basic P2 Psyker has a smidgen of P1 (sensing of the warp) in order to feel the flow before channelling the warp to produce the effects. However this small amount of P1 ability is so small it wouldn't allow the navigation of the warp.
=Each P grade has several levels=
P1[L1] is P1 group of abilities at level 1 power. P1[L2] is P1 group of abilities at level 2 power. P1[L3] is P1 group of abilities at level 3 power. Etc.
Same holds true for P2. P2[L1] is P2 group of abilities at level 1 power. P2[L2] is P2 group of abilities at level 2 power. Etc.
For P2 Psykers their P1 abilities are not automatically the same level as P2. So it is possible for a powerful P2[L6] Psyker to also have really low P1 abilities at [L1]. This is quite often the case.
=Enhanced= Navigators are 'enhanced'. The minimum for Navigating the warp would be P1[L4], but Navigators are a minimum of P1[L6] and L6 does not occur naturally, it is artificial.
So Navigators are a minimum of P1[L6] – P2[L'0'] – P3[L'0'].
This means they have no Psyker abilities as commonly seen as Psyker abilities (P2) or Eldar like abilities (P3).
However a Navigator could still have latent Psyker powers develop 'naturally'. I figure that Navigators are screened as a foetus and if any Psyker traits are found it results in termination.
They do this to remove any 'weakness' to the warp, as P1 Psykers can not channel energy and therefore can't be possessed (see, it all fit together like a giant jig-saw).
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 25, 2004 6:27:38 GMT -5
Most definitely. And they are also something which initiate at different levels. The eldar, for example, would have had 'psionic evolution' from a much earlier level of culture (not measured by TL) and then, with access to technology, a concomittantly earlier integration of psychic forms into technology (i.e. technomancy=psychic engineering). Yep, exactly. The TL system is there as a guideline and if, for example, you need a more advanced tech present in a lower level, you simply shift it and consider the implications. I personally do this with wraithbone, which acts as a 'Cosmic Power Plant' (GTL15) but is accessed by them by at least GTL13/14 and, potentially, earlier. (This is because of how it is formed rather than showing that it was a 'gift' from a higher race; e.g. it is a technomantic material based upon mundane components... for me. I hate the "Oh, we conjured it!" approach.) All the TL system is there to provide is for you to be able to structure discussion of a world's technology without superficially taking on the assumptions of GW that may be spurious. If, however, the TL system indicates that a technology is not present when it should be (cf. stasis boxes, GTL15/16) then it gets shifted. (Indeed, this is one of the more interesting potentials of Phillip's bubble theory.) Orks are fairly broken, but as a mainstay they end up represented in GURPS using Gadgeteering rules... That replicates how the Mekboyz work fairly well... But making sure that things fit. The TL system has the advantage of offering other 'artefacts' and 'gadgets' which would be accessible given reasonable inferences about technological accomplishment. I am - we are - not buying into the "Adeptus Me-can't-icus" approach, rather allowing for technological diffusion and the "Adeptus Me-can but we're not going to tell you about it-icus". LOL... that's very funny. There will be at least 111 navigators in the Anargo sector, which is still a rather hefty number. E.g. this is the number of one navigator per warp-capable military ship. If some of those military ships weren't warp capable then we can drop this on a 1:1 basis, but then have to up it due to likely redundancy. Merchant Fleet would most likely have navigators, so that really does depend on how many of those ships there are. Civil Fleet...? No idea. My guess would put them at no more than 5-15% of the Merchant and Fleet Navigators. The Houses of the navis nobilite are supposedly highly interbred. Chances are that with that level of integration that they would tend to homogenise into the rough same format. Again, that's just a bioroid with a "psychic gene" of some form, except obviously it was not recognised as such. But quite considerably after them. That doesn't strictly tell us anything unless the suggestion here is that Navigators are somehow latents...? Or, indeed, that they were somehow bred with a 'magical knack' or two and nothing else. This could be in many ways similar to the concept of "Wilds" found in the 'fluff' but with a more specific introduction. (Again, only if you model it with magic... again, though, it's easier...) Canonically psykers were at least Palaeolithic in terms of humanity. Following that they do not exist until the Age of Strife, or thereabouts. One. Only the Paternova has potential abilities which can be related to an expansion... Once again it doesn't really mean anything. They are developed psykers who utilise both technological and integrated means of achieving certain ends. That might make them your P3, but then again the adeptus mechanicus performs in a more 'brute' fashion the same kind of thing... P3 seems little to do with technology... <grin> To be fair the 'warp sail' idea in relation to the Geller Field has been hanging around for quite some time! Another good point... He is the exception to the rule. Lack of definition only. Their abilities seem merely a modified version of Astral Sight. Just quite how it is modified since there is no reason that Astropaths cannot astrally perceive (indeed, kind of comes with the territory). Also note that Draco is described as seeing the Astronomican, the prerequisite for Navigator abilities... Thus there is lattitude in the 'fluff' to give substance to Phillip's assertion about a continuum-relation between psykers and Navigators... And, incidentally, it all works out rather well using magic to explain things, but over-shadowing it with 'psionic' colour. I prefer to see the 'psionics' as retarding the techno-evolutionary process, merely a means of doing something without having to strain ones mind... Further splitting up the P system...
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 11:01:55 GMT -5
Key = Psionics. Psionics is the ability to use the mind to link to the warp. The person must have a basis of Psionic power to make the link, and then have a strong enough mind to do something productive/ destructive with the tapped warp essence. Psionics controls the warp, the warp does the business. - P1 = Receiver. They can see the warp and feel the warp. They can control how they are perceived in the warp by changing there thinking patterns to 'smooth the flow' of the warp travelling though their 'aura'. They can do this because the can see the effects their mind has on the warp.
- P2 = Transmitter. They can transmit the warp, and channel the warp (much like an electric circuit). The warp flowing through them 'empowers' the body, and the energy can be focused, directed and projected.
- P3 = Transmuter. They can transmute the warp in other forces, such as kinetic energy. To a transmuter the warp can be controlled and used as an energy source.
- P4 = Condenser [Daemonic]. They can transmute the channelled warp energy in 'normal' energy and then condense the energy into matter.
- Psykers are mutants, so normal humans can't learn it by practice. In your description it sounds like anyone can learn it.
- My take: Primary Psyker: Higher P1 ability level than their P2 ability level and in turn higher the P3 level. This means their 'base' is strong enough to support the later abilities.
- My take: Secondary Psyker: P2 higher than P1, P3 higher than P2, etc. These Psykers are 'unbalanced', or 'top heavy'. Because they can't can turn of their ability to 'listen' and 'transmit' P1[L4] when dangerous warp entities come by they are open to 'possession'.
=P1=Awareness of the warp. - L1 - Miriest hint of of ESP. Gets 'hebbie gebbies' and knows when something is seriously wrong even if the threat is hidden. Will suddenly get jumpy and alert for 'no reason' if being stalked by a hidden attacker.
- L2 - Gets a feeling when things aren't right, can tell when someone is lies even if they hide it perfectly, will not be able to read their mind, just the flow around them is too 'complex' or out of sync to what would be expected (sig of Tzeentch).
- L3 - Sixth sense: just knows when something is going to happen well in advance, can see the cause and effects of events and the paths to later events. L3 can't see the warp in the real world and the effect of their powers is that they 'just know'. Though the L3 still can't read a person's mind directly they have clues from the flow of the warp (the links in the web of 'cause and effect') that show the L3 what is 'likely' to be the situation and what will happen later. Though they can not see the warp, they start to feel its presence. They minor auditory 'hallucinations', but these are not the beginnings of madness, they are the 'broadcast' thoughts of powerful L4s heard as faint incoherent 'whispers' with 'echoes'.
- L4 - Can feel the warp even when in real space, and are aware of the Astronomican signal. They can predict minor flow variation a couple of seconds in advance. Has amazing 'sixth sense' and can listen out for 'broadcast' thoughts of other Psykers, and can broadcast thoughts of there own. Can also shut off from listening to other thoughts at will.
- L5 - Able to feel the warp around them at all times and move with the warp. In warp space they have limited piloting ability and are overcome by the complexities of the warp. They can follow another's path (trainee Navigator). People of less than L5 can't lie to a Navigator, they know if you are not telling the truth, and can feel all 'emotions' via powerful empathy. Can track the Astronomican signal in warp space, and use it as reference point to the real world to enable accurate navigation.
- L6 - Navigators. In warp space they can feel the way the warp is flowing and can predict how how it will flow down the line. Can 'invent' the complex and abstract moves required to manoeuvre a ship in the warp, where up maybe down and vice versa, and dimensions twist and change chaotically.
- L7 - Can see the warp for LYs around them, can feel other navigators, and all the life forms that effect the warp via a warp sig within this radius. Can track a specific Psyker human over vast distances.
=P2=Channelling the warp - L1 - When angry can hit 'very hard' and blows against them seem to have less effect. Hands get hot when emotional, and has exceptional stamina.
- L2 - A real power house when the L2 gets in a mood, and has a stare that bores into your soul and weakens your resolve. If they also have at least P1[L4] they can boost their messaging range by combining it with others (Basis of the Astronomican).
- L3 - A combatant finds it harder to hit the L3, its as if their arm is being repelled, or their body doesn't do what they want it to. A mere look into their burning eyes can freeze a man on the spot, and when recovered the man will have completely forgotten their encounter with the L3.
- L4 - Can focus pure warp energy into a blazing ball of fire and blast enemies. Weapons get hot in the hands of the L4 enemies, and blows 'bounce' off. A strike from an L4 explodes with power, the shock wave ripping through flesh and bone alike. Combatants 'frozen' will have serious memory loss, and even brain damage/ mind wiping.
- L5 - No human has this level. Chain lightning through whole squads of opponents, remains permanently 'on' and doesn't need to concentrate to form effects like fireballs (can fire them off lie a plasma gun until the flesh burns).
- L6 - Primarch. Super powered, warp energy flows through them constantly, making them all but indestructible. Can destroy whole armies and take on greater Daemon single handed and win.
- L7 - Emperor of Mankind.
=P3=Moulding with the warp - L1 - Can gently move objects by pushing them with waves of channel warp energy shifted to have kinetic force (affect objects on a sub-atomic level, so all atoms move with the flow)
- L2 – Can mould pliable materials as if using their hands, create lattice pottery of many layers and complex glazes. Can control the flow of molten metal (and could pinch an artery)
- L3 - Can change the shape of solid objects, could make a sword from a block of steel and cut it with their mind. Chucks of metal would fall away as it the metal gain had split it perfectly. Eldar sword would be very strong as layers in a 'Katana' for example would be perfect.
- L4 - Full Psychometric engineering, can mould material with the mind, can even arrange atoms into molecules to form complex interlinked structures. Form complex protein based armours.
- L5 - Can repair damaged tissue, and put small amounts of DNA back together. Can bring the dead back to life (if not left to long and wounds minor)
- L6 - No known creature has this ability. Can repair seriously damage organisms from a very small sample (ie. Charred body and some components to make up the missing matter).
- L7 - No known creature has this ability. Can create life with a thought if have the raw materials available. A P3[L7] can not change matter, the can't change lead into gold for instance. They can only 'push' atoms about, control their movement and encourage bonding in chemical reactions.
Problems = mind reading. You would need to be P2[L4] to read a humans mind, and even then its not like you are listening to their thoughts as they happen, more feeling their emotion and locking onto things that a prominent in their mind. This doesn't fit 100% with the fluff, but it is very nice why of doing it. Note on system, a P2 has to have at least P1[L1], and a P3 must a least have P1[L1] and P2[L1]. This means you could have an Eldar Psychometric engineer as P1[L1] - P2[L1] - P3[L1]. An Navigator is P1[L6] - P2[L0] - P3[L0] A minimum 'Psyker' is P1[L1] - P2[L1] - P3[L0] An Astronomican Chosen is P1[L4] - P2[L2] - P3[L0] =Daemonic=P4 is a daemonic type power, and is how a daemon can step into the real word by 'condensing' their form. For a daemon to leave the warp it has to process the P4 ability at [L1] (P4@L1).Lesser daemons are L1 across the board, whereas greater daemons can have higher power levels in any ability. =Flamer of Tzeentch= P1@L1 P2@L5 P3@L1 P4@L1. At P2@L5 the Flamer can channel warp energy at huge loads and fire it out with the same effect as a plasma gun. This doesn't require any power, as the flamer is 'always on'. P4@L1 means the flamer can enter the real world if assisted via a person in the real world. Though not fully fleshed out, I would imagine that P4@L6 would give the daemon the ability to just step into the real world unaided. Obviously no daemon possesses such a power, not even the Gods of Chaos themselves (the Chaos Gods are so large and mighty, that they need extra power to condense such a large form, this will only come about at the end of time).
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Post by Dazo on Aug 25, 2004 11:27:05 GMT -5
To be honest I would give the Emporer this ability to a degree. And i wouldn't make the primarchs so powerful. You are treading on alot of my theories about psionics in which as far as i'm concerned the ability increase exponentially according to the mind set of a being or comprehension of the nature of reality and truth, God, for lack of ability to describe what i'm thinking.
I am inclined to disagree, Iwould like you to say no creature known or no creature in our galaxy has this ability. This is the evolution of mind we are talking about not science, I can easiliy see creatures of such awesome power, indeed my own super race easily exceeds this level. What would you class a race that could collapse/uncollapse the black hole at the centre of a galaxy and steralise the whole thing. Theoretically of course.
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Post by Philip on Aug 25, 2004 12:38:21 GMT -5
To be honest I would give the Emporer this ability to a degree Instant healing is a bit of a problem when you really think about it. This power is putting back together DNA and cells exactly as it was before (cuts easier than burns), and setting it up so it works immediately. Controlling atoms with such precision at such a complexity level is way in advance of all medical science (even nanites couldn't do this) It would also imply that the P3[L5] has an exceptionally long life, as a P3[5] can repair their own body at the DNA level, so they wouldn't 'age' and are effectively immortal barring serious accidents. The Emperor may have this ability, he may indeed be a P1[5] - P2[7] - P3[5] or higher but it would make him incredibly powerful (but... I suppose he is, or was). It may explain his incredibly long life, it may also explain why the Eldar live for so long, it not that they are 'immortal' its just that the can be effectively repaired. As for why the Emporer doesn't just regenerate, it may be that at the moment of bound in the golden throne half dead, that he has lost the P3[L5] ability. As no other human has it, it would explain why he has not been restored (and I'm sure the Eldar are not going to volunteer). The Primarch are this powerful, Sanguinus beat a Blood Thirster in hand to hand combat! They did destroy whole armies, and they are too powerful to use in the 40K game. Horus was even more powerful, rivalling the Emperor himself (but Horus may lack P3 abilities, but gains D1[L1+] abilities). I'll change it. I think the Slann would have been able to do it back in the day, and the C'tan can (probably) do it, though I would not call these entities 'creatures'. As for your super race, I wouldn't call them 'creatures' either. If you have God like powers, you are a God. Sir! This type of power is off the scale, at the moment all the P levels really represent 'sophistication' and using power up to what a 'human form' is capable of handling. I do have vague plans for such things, like D1[L1] etc. the Daemonic powers of conversion and probability manipulation a different form of warp power (lacking the psionic overtones). An later, 'reality manipulation' powers for Slann and C'tan under the G1[L1] etc.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 25, 2004 12:55:49 GMT -5
Is there anywhere in the fluff that actually says each ship needs to have its own Navigator? Wouldn't it make sense that the fleet flagship has the navigator and everyone else is just keeping station on it as it moves through the warp?
Some might not like the idea, but the alternative is that each and every individual ship in the fleet is plotting its own route and course through the warp, and if this is actually required, quaere, is it reasonable for fleets or convoys to EVER arrive together?
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Post by zholud on Aug 26, 2004 0:46:34 GMT -5
Uh, my boss will get me fired if he sees what I do instead of working… Most definitely. And they are also something which initiate at different levels. The eldar, for example, would have had 'psionic evolution' from a much earlier level of culture (not measured by TL) and then, with access to technology, a concomittantly earlier integration of psychic forms into technology (i.e. technomancy=psychic engineering). That’s why I propose the following idea – if TLs are just guidelines, narrow it even more – guidelines for what can be done, but not with what means. We should not care much whether race X gets something because they are GURPS TL8 or they are psycho-engineer the thing or they just tapped some Waargh flow to its engine… this allows to have Orks on similar TL with Imperium w/o any gadgeting. Am I clear? All the TL system is there to provide is for you to be able to structure discussion of a world's technology without superficially taking on the assumptions of GW that may be spurious. If, however, the TL system indicates that a technology is not present when it should be (cf. stasis boxes, GTL15/16) then it gets shifted. Or we just hand-wave that field are not too high-tech, after all magnetic fields are used now in nuclear reactors and it is wide-spread in semi/pseudo ‘not so high’-tech universes, e.g. Dune, Asimov’s robots series, etc. The are just cool, so we can say they are too expensive to be used widely enough. Orks are fairly broken, but as a mainstay they end up represented in GURPS using Gadgeteering rules... Either they are broken or GURPS TL system is lame … joking, but pointing on your pre-justice to them as broken i.e. unnatural to used TL system. There will be at least 111 navigators in the Anargo sector, which is still a rather hefty number. E.g. this is the number of one navigator per warp-capable military ship. It depends on the ship. The only clear data ( you know I really tried to get anything on them) is that Ramilies class starport has seventeen navigators. In my fluff each Mechanicus ship has at least 3 Navigators or multiples of 3. In Inferno! Stories there were 2 navigators on 1 trader (not really rogue trader!) ship and this surprised no one. My love-hate Ben Counter had Navigators on every monitor ship across the quarantine perimeter… The Houses of the navis nobilite are supposedly highly interbred. This it true except minor exceptions. <grin> To be fair the 'warp sail' idea in relation to the Geller Field has been hanging around for quite some time! I can only say that I truly (to my knowledge) independently developed this idea, but I admit you had similar stuff before me and this quite likely affected me. Back to work.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 26, 2004 2:19:30 GMT -5
The P system makes a form of logic if that's how you wish to create things in a somewhat linear fashion. It's very 40k (and WFRP) and, partly because of that, I'm not overtly fond of it. Indeed, I've always felt such linear systems of power scale to be extremely limited when compared against those that incorporate more subtle distinctions between 'power' and 'skill'. As something that you could use to create your own internal consistency? Fair enough. In that case it, for the most part, works. I don't like the assumptions made, but you obviously do so that's peachy. In terms of application to the 40k universe, I would be wary in the application of what is, in essence, a very limited series of powers. Quite simply the system borders upon imposition and delineation rather than a framework, which is fair enough if that twiddles your biscuit. There are some obvious glitches... Not so much an error, but something that you're going to have trouble selling. Again, the only real Navigator(s) that may show psychic potential are the Paternova and, by default and to a lesser extent, the Heirs Apparent and potentially the House Eldars (cf. Wolfblade). The Chosen require very little other than the ability to give up their energy ("Transfer Energy") and the mental discipline therein to do such an act. Indeed, it is the discipline rather than the capabilities that is the more telling feature of this 'type' of psyker. Further, the assignation of specific powers is unsatisifying (i.e. the above P1[L4] - P2[L1?] - P3[L0]) as well as partially confusing. The use of the hyphen tends to indicate a spectrum of ability, e.g. P1[L4] to P2[L1] and including P1[L5] etc. Furthermore the addition of a second 'to' implies that they cover the spectrum to P3[L0]... Alternatively, and more likely, you're suggesting that they are - in your scheme - P1[L4] (broadcast telepath, sixth sense), P2[L1] (perhaps; "psychokinetic" shield and ability to strike with, for some reason, 'hot hand' syndrone ) and P3[L0] which isn't actually on your scale...? If the latter then congratulations! You've just reinvented a very small - and sometimes cludged - spell list! Furthermore, there are two - again somewhat obvious - absences at least in terms of integration into the 40k 'fluff'. Firstly and less importantly, there is no distinction between primary and secondary psykers. Secondly, and slightly more importantly, there is no reference to the 'grades' that are mentioned in the 'fluff', e.g. alpha-plus (even A++), beta (and variants), gamma (and variants) and, somewhat more hazily, delta (and variants). Of course, in your system it is just likely that you would restrict abilities within the grades, e.g. delta (weakest) would be more likely P1, gamma would be P1/P2, beta at P2 (upper), alpa at P2/P3 and alpha plus at P3 etc. One other problem might be that you run into problems with the other races given the 'grainy' nature of the above system. (I, of course ( ) have a system that works for all races... Gotta love established RPG when sufficiently tweaked, bastardised and - damn it! - hammered into shape... It even kind of fits the above system because not only are they designed to represent the universe, but they are both ultimately just magic spells!) And now to return to the other comments: Yep. The Emperor or any other long-lived/immortal creature is going to have to have a way of reparing themselves against the effects of time. Even if you're not going along the lines of memory, DNA repair, or whatever, they're still going to need a new set of teeth every century or so! There is some debate whether as to whether they were psychic at all... Many of their spurious "super-superhuman" ('god-like', if will) acts can be attributed to looking at history with an eye to creating them to be heroic. In other words, it's all storytelling and myth... Or, of course, they could do the same through 'magic'... All you need is an open end system, not the closed list that is presented by Phillip... My first thought would be "Yawn"?
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 26, 2004 2:20:12 GMT -5
That's why it is called magi... erm, referred to as psyker abilities. Using the warp to change reality. It is a little rut you're creating, true. Of course, there are other ways around this. <scrolls down in attempt to translate> The Emperor can sense and move with the warp, track another person in the warp (this is canonically not related to Navigators in any sense), is an empath and can sense the Astronomican that he projects... <Begins to understand things now that he looks at it again and is reminded quite horrendously of White Wolf, now WizzKids, products <shudder>> He is also the Emperor, but we knew this, and can do a bit of minor healing... When you put it like that... Ick. Note the 'myth' on Gulliman. If you really wish to buy into that nonsense, then you can. <grin> Both races achieve the same ends though through different means. Indeed, it is somewhat ironic that the eldar were said to have surpassed the Old Slann, although to be fair that need not necessarily equate directly to the 'Old Ones' (although close). Perpsective changes things, do you not think? I think before you do that you really, really should get your P system fixed. Furthermore, before pulling this stuff out of the air you might look at the structure presented in other RPG systems. Exactly the same can be achieved through a bastardisation of GURPS Magic/Grimoire and GURPS Mage the Ascension (yes, borrowing from White Wolf! )... heck, it's even somewhat reminiscent of the approach taken in Dangerous Journeys: Mythus/Mythus Magick with variations between 'natural', supernatural, pretanatural and entital energy levels... Regardless, utilisation of GURPS Magic with alterations to allow for "Unlimited Mana" (creating an open ended scale rather than the normal 'limited' version) combined with racial 'restrictions' and/or preferences works for description of normal psykers. Grades can be translated not only to power but to innate flair and, if you're willing to pay the price, you can do even more than you should be able to do by your 'level' (alpha, beta, etc.). Wilds are represented in the standard system and include 'knacks' which might otherwise be restricted to them because of innate ability (grade)... The decision then is whether you model entities like the Emperor, Eldrad, etc., on the 'mortal' scale or you turn to the more advanced GURPS Mage the Ascension to explain 'reality programming'. While a bit more cludgy given WW tendency to work in 'power levels', it is actually in some ways more flexible than many systems... And it all works and is play-tested... Not specifically, though it is numerously implied. Warp conveys, once again. I see no problem with this since you can actually fight military engagements in the warp (cf. Execution Hour). Inappropriately I'm thinking of the film Fly now... Quite clear... but also with little purpose. Orks are not at the same TL as the Imperium. Not by a long-shot. Just as the eldare not the same TL as the Imperium, or the Necrons or even, for that matter, the Tau... In RPG terms mimicking the ability of the orks' ability to have powerfields, etc., through "intuitive" means is merely represented best by either ignoring it (and just accepting it) or in terms of game mechanics (and GURPS specifically) gadgeteering. I am personally unconcerned how it works in other RPGs. That is for each person to individually decide. TL in application to orks represents the level of 'development' and extensive of Mekboyz' facilities than anything else. They still do all the things that are 'orky' and shaded by the preference of the individual creator and tempered by the 'fluff'. That's why it is a guideline, more so with the cludgy orks than anything else. So you could have 'feral orks' with primitive smelting technologies 'inventing' Shokk Attak guns... forcefields or whatever. Still doesn't mean that if you look at them from the outside they look like they're GTL2-4... But in these societies, a bolt gun might be considered a prestige item. Or you could have more Mekboyz with more shops, or whatever, producing bolters by the dozen and meaning that everyone has one such that, at least in terms of light military technology, they are advanced. Orks are problematic because they require discrete and not continuous technologies that are not readily provided for in the assumption of continuity in most TL systems. In terms of application to RPG - since the canonical nature is not questioned - it works, for me, to apply Gadgeteering. Orks? Whatever twiddles your biscuit. As far as I'm able to tell while I'm not liking the orks they are more than explainable in terms of RPG and thus I'm happy. Actually the 'broken' comment was more directed at their 'fluff' then their application to the TL system, which is easy when you actually think about it. You will note that is why I said there were at least one for each ship. Go on... And I'm fairly sure that I got it from the 'fluff' itself some distant time past. Phillip, this thread is now becoming completely unwieldy. We are now separately discussing the nature of the TL system, which works (to a point), your 'colour' addition (which also works to a point), the concept of navigators on ships, and your own interpretation of psykers (with overtones of RPG). While you like trying to keep them all in one lovely little place so that you can see them grow, I would strongly advise you break the discussions into their separate boards even though I may have made comments in the past on how "If it's not for ASP but it in General" given how this thread is going it might be best to separate them into their constituent forums, or at least the separation of the psyker level component into RPG.
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Post by zholud on Aug 26, 2004 4:32:03 GMT -5
Although Kage advised to drop this random walking over the thread with strange musing, I’ll add some minor points that are possibly off-topic. - Navigators are not psykers for me… yeah, still this is so. For me they have specific coordination feel, so he can relate warp current position and direction, Astronomicon position and coordinate system and own position. It is possibly that he doesn’t really see any warp but feels it. Unlike Astropath, who sees Astronomican (cf. Tyranid invasion and famous ‘shadow’).
- Linearity – as Kage correctly pointed, it is not the best way. Moreover, I’d say ‘one-dimention’-alism is ever worse. You wish add Navigators to psyker system – ok, set separate dimension for them. Other dimensions are thought-reading, emotion-reading, up to ‘inserting’ both in someone’s head, yet another – affecting unlive entities, another – self-control including self-repair…
- psyk-abilities should go parallel with tech-abilities/capacities. Creating of either ‘what they do’-TLs or unique TLs for each race seems two most obvious ways.
- Gadgeting for Orks – maybe yes, but I still point that Orks are in the same TL as Imperium in terms of what they do – vehicles as fast/strong/effective; guns and even guided rockets. Their air forces or space ships aren’t truly inferior… all in all, basing on results, and not description (steam-powered, hammered-out thingies) they are on the same TL is military sphere and thus we could deduct they are close on other spheres. Feral Orks are special case as primitive worlds…
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Post by Philip on Aug 26, 2004 6:04:45 GMT -5
Phillip, this thread is now becoming completely unwieldy. We are now separately discussing the nature of the TL system, which works (to a point), your 'colour' addition (which also works to a point), the concept of navigators on ships, and your own interpretation of psykers (with overtones of RPG). While you like trying to keep them all in one lovely little place so that you can see them grow, I would strongly advise you break the discussions into their separate boards even though I may have made comments in the past on how "If it's not for ASP but it in General" given how this thread is going it might be best to separate them into their constituent forums, or at least the separation of the psyker level component into RPG. It still seems pretty clear. Its difficult to talk about these 'concept' in isolation without relating it to the other concepts. I figured once a bit made sense, I'd brake it off for a 'draft'? Navigators are not psykers for me… yeah, still this is so. For me they have specific coordination feel, so he can relate warp current position and direction, Astronomicon position and coordinate system and own position. It is possibly that he doesn’t really see any warp but feels it. Unlike Astropath, who sees Astronomican (cf. Tyranid invasion and famous ‘shadow’). OK, but navigators have always been 'psykers' from the very beginning... Going back to Rogue Trader page 150. Things may have changed since then, but my system takes into account all the above characteristics of navigators and explains why navigators are like they are. Even the lack of P2 abilities is explained but birth screening, and why P1 abilities do not attract warp creatures.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 26, 2004 11:56:28 GMT -5
It's not strange musing, but does mean that responses may get increasing unwieldy. As Phillip rightly says later on, however, things do tend to be inter-related. Of course, just how much of it is relevant and applicable here and how much Phillip is getting a 'freebie' on ideas kibitzing is an entirely different thing. Yes, but there is that lovely little quote that Phillip posts and one of the reasons that I've always defined their abilities as 'psychic'. I am, however, interested by your description (beyond just spatial awareness, etc.) and the current "Astral Sight" equivalent looks poor in comparison. Although 'psychic' methinks that it might be more useful to define a separate advantage for the Navigators...? To offer potential - big emphasis on potential, there - support is the descriptions from Farseer in which they describe the Astronomican as 'pulses' (or was it beats)? Hmmn... I could most definitely go with an alteration to an esoteric advantage rather than a spell as long as they are ultimately linked. Hmmn... you might have sold me on that one zholud. Do you mean dimension as in 'other place' ( ) or 'other aspect'? I would disagree here. There is no reason that 'psychic evolution' should be linked with technological evolution. On the other hand, the integration of 'psyker abilities' (including theories) and technology is another matter and, indeed, should be thought of in terms of the proposed TL system. Indeed, this is something that I was hoping to get into after describing how I see 'psykers' functioning and would have valued input... I would say that creating independent TLs for a race is a pointless and ultimately self-defeating exercise. TLs are meant to be there as a framework and if there is no relationship between them...? No. It would be like excavating two archaeological trenches on opposing sides of a ditch feature and not excavating that to determine the relationship between the two sites. Without that link you've got two separation relational chronologies... with it you've got a single relational chronology and, with supporting evidence, the means of absolutely dating... Okay, strange analogy but the premise holds. First off I remind you of GWs requirement for wargame balance. I do not use this contentiously but point out that it does exist. There are obvious points in the 'fluff' where a race could have superior weapons but end up with some piece of plastic/alloy trash because it fits their thematic concept and creates a pro/con form of a balance to that themed army. (Why in the heck are eldar still using gauss weapons!?) With that said, all you're saying is that there is a more developed Mekboy 'infrastructure' which, ultimately, are creating systems in the same rough way as humans do with the exception that knowledge becomes codified through the genes showing distinct 'lines' of developing technology. Thus while they might have a reasonable developed military technology, they would be retarded (relatively) in computer technology... or whatever. It doesn't mean that you abandon the TL system... But then again I'm not au fait (?) with the orks but I am loath to discard a system that, for the most part, works and offers greater depth to the understanding of the universe because of a single 'fantasy' face. I'd prefer that you broke it off rather than put a stop to it... Remember, that the production of a draft does in no way mean any form of acceptance. Your pieces make, at present, for great 'colour' pieces but with no point of integration it is difficult - at least less pleasing - to incorporate them. Put another way it is an abstraction of an abstraction and does little for us... The point is that they should... it's like dropping tiny flecks of rock into ocean, and then letting a caldera slide off into a tapering basin. Who is going to notice the first in relation to the second?
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