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Post by zholud on Aug 27, 2004 5:55:14 GMT -5
OK, but navigators have always been 'psykers' from the very beginning... They were mutants with psychic power… for me psykers are something different, starting from abilities that appear in later age due to trauma (which can be seen as indirect proof that psykers are not always mutant, i.e. with born-in powers… or that everyone has these powers at birth…) Going back to Rogue Trader page 150. I’m aware about this piece as well as that Navigators here don’t have third eye. Yes, but there is that lovely little quote that Phillip posts and one of the reasons that I've always defined their abilities as 'psychic'. Problem is that for me psychic and psyker are not equivalents… <muses about necessity to re-read Defining psykers thread> To offer potential - big emphasis on potential, there - support is the descriptions from Farseer in which they describe the Astronomican as 'pulses' (or was it beats)? Still haven’t read that book, cannot persuade myself to buy it after reading Space Wolf The point is still that you can feel not necessary see pulses… I’m even unsure that Astropath and Navigation sees Astronomican similarly, moreover I guess they fill it (or its aspects) differently. At least as Matt Farrer in Legacy pointed each Navigation sees warp currents in own way. The Navigator in book sees them as flashes similar to those appearing when you press leads of closed eyes… Hmmn... I could most definitely go with an alteration to an esoteric advantage rather than a spell as long as they are ultimately linked. Hmmn... you might have sold me on that one zholud. I bought Kage…. Now I have to calculate shipping costs to Ukraine Do you mean dimension as in 'other place' ( ) or 'other aspect'? Aspect. I would disagree here. There is no reason that 'psychic evolution' should be linked with technological evolution. It can be determined by psychic evolution. If you can make amplifier of directed thought you never have need for telephone. Making analogue of Dune’s Mentat (sorry, reading this stuff for a first time now, so affected) you loose need for computers… and so on. That’s why I say TLs as what they give, e.g. long-range communication, FTL communication, etc, instead of tying to Earth’s history (to a large extent) in TL1-9. I would say that creating independent TLs for a race is a pointless and ultimately self-defeating exercise Agreed, thus I advocate abovementioned albeit very raw idea. First off I remind you of GWs requirement for wargame balance. Oh, don’t start… I now try to persuade people on Battle-Sisters yahoo group that Imperium produces not only military tech… Why in the heck are eldar still using gauss weapons!? Because they don’t want to wander from old good ways? Or because they affect environment less than other weaponry? Or because it is already above opponents’ tech, so no-one to outrun in arms race… With that said, all you're saying is that there is a more developed Mekboy 'infrastructure' which, ultimately, are creating systems in the same rough way as humans do with the exception that knowledge becomes codified through the genes showing distinct 'lines' of developing technology. I now think that maybe not knowledge (information) but eureka-ism (genius reasoning are inventing bicycle each time) is in gene-pattern… Thus while they might have a reasonable developed military technology, they would be retarded (relatively) in computer technology... They make tins, at least made them in 1st ed… those are robots, with ‘intellect’ equal 1st ed Imperium’s robots… Orks look brute, but maybe they are Shreks with many layers? It doesn't mean that you abandon the TL system... I don’t call for that, quite the opposite. I just try to hammer it down for 40k-verse.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 27, 2004 7:20:51 GMT -5
They were mutants with psychic power… for me psykers are something different... This would be drawn out in 'game mechanics' by differentiation into the Advantage rather than a specific power covered by 'spells' (see RPG at the moment). I’m aware about this piece as well as that Navigators here don’t have third eye. <sigh> The days when things actually made sense... err, kinda. Problem is that for me psychic and psyker are not equivalents… <muses about necessity to re-read Defining psykers thread> Again, the definition of psykers is quite clear: they actively, if not knowingly, channel warp energy. Any suggestive difference might come from the fact that Navigators ( et al.) might be true passive observers... Still haven’t read that book, cannot persuade myself to buy it after reading Space Wolf I have the same trouble in trying to make it through Counter's latest rearrangement of the 'fluff' ( The Bleeding Chalice). Moreso when you've got other, potentially more interesting books to read. Guess you've got to be in the right mood... The point is still that you can feel not necessary see pulses… I’m even unsure that Astropath and Navigation sees Astronomican similarly... To draw from another RPG analogy, there is the potential of utilising - at least in some form - the difference between 'hermetic' and 'shamanic' magic from Shadowrun. I'm not saying directly, but rather in the differences they see in perceiving what might be broadly thought to be the same phenomenon... Again, your analogy of 'feeling' and 'pressures' is interesting, more so since it might give a further reason for the introduction of the 'Navigators bubble' which is extruded during warp flight (e.g. since some Navigators can see into the Warp while in the matterium, surely they could 'see' through a hull to the warp...) At least as Matt Farrer in Legacy pointed each Navigation sees warp currents in own way. Tenuous if every Navigator had a unique perception, more so beyond the conventions of defining perceptual space in phenomenology. The vision would likely be 'aspected' by expectations transmitted during tuition with variation introduced by personal experience. Hmmn... again, the whole "Sea of Souls" might be more an outgrowth of Navigators than anything else especially if you move with the sort of intuitive/shamanic concept. E.g. they objectify phenomenon within the warp in terms of familiar concepts. It can be determined by psychic evolution. If you can make amplifier of directed thought you never have need for telephone. [/b][/quote] Except it doesn't quite work that way, although this argument can be used to explain the overtly long technological evolution of the eldar. Making analogue of Dune’s Mentat (sorry, reading this stuff for a first time now, so affected) you loose need for computers… and so on. Not strictly. Comparison of universes in this way often falls short... It's like the discussion you see on various boards along the lines of "Who would win a space battle? The Enterprise or the Lord Solar Macharius?" That’s why I say TLs as what they give, e.g. long-range communication, FTL communication, etc, instead of tying to Earth’s history (to a large extent) in TL1-9. Given the fact that the TL tries for verisimilitude it is all but inescapable that they are going to link real world developments with the TL scheme. It is, after all, an abstraction. After that they are linked with more generic concepts, e.g. TL8 ("The Edge of Tommorrow" according to GURPS Ultra-tech even though they've got a number of technologies wrong; obviously! it's a game!) is described with reference to life, military technologies, etc. It is determined on what's available to an extent... (TL9 "The Road to the Stars", TL10 "Interstellar Civilisation", TL11/12 "Masters of Force", TL13/14 "Superscience", TL15/16 "A Sufficiently Advanced Technology"... that last obviously referring to Clarke's famous quote.) But going back to the orks, which you seem to be focussing on, just because you can build a version of the bolter doesn't mean that you're a GTL8 civilisation... Agreed, thus I advocate abovementioned albeit very raw idea. It's also glitchy. As always, ability to produce a tech does not translate to an acceptance of that tech (e.g. GM food). Is the tech really that superior? Consider that eldar would have been able to achieve a great deal of 'technological' effects using their psyker abilities yet, arguably admittedly, they still developed technology. Why would they do this? We invent a starship when you can walk between worlds or teleport or whatever? Why create a shuriken catapult when you can manipulate the warp to create a 'fireball' or whatever? (Yes, I can think of counter-arguments, but the most obvious - Chaos - would be going a tad too far, i.e. eldar technological evolution was a response to increasing Chaotic influence on the warp.) Oh, don’t start… I now try to persuade people on Battle-Sisters yahoo group that Imperium produces not only military tech… That's a scary group, then. Because they don’t want to wander from old good ways? Or because they affect environment less than other weaponry? Or because it is already above opponents’ tech, so no-one to outrun in arms race… All of which are reaching, and it doubtful that shuriken catapults are above the TL of the Imperium. Indeed, it is canonical that they are not so although the eldar models are superior. (E.g. use of gravitational/magnetic fields rather than just magnetic fields for acceleration of the 'needle/disc'.) I now think that maybe not knowledge (information) but eureka-ism (genius reasoning are inventing bicycle each time) is in gene-pattern… Each ork Mekboy rediscovers technology as an individual act of intuitive creation? Is that not even less likely for the creation of complex technologies, at least in the stable sense which would allow for the addition of 'TL8' civilisation, or whatever? They make tins, at least made them in 1st ed… those are robots, with ‘intellect’ equal 1st ed Imperium’s robots… Orks look brute, but maybe they are Shreks with many layers? Wargame balance, again. I don’t call for that, quite the opposite. I just try to hammer it down for 40k-verse. Just so you know, it doesn't actually sound that way.
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Post by zholud on Aug 27, 2004 15:52:29 GMT -5
This would be drawn out in 'game mechanics' by differentiation into the Advantage rather than a specific power covered by 'spells' (see RPG at the moment). Yep… and in terms of representation I guess to play around lower manifolds of warp where main warp-sailing goes and upper from where it is felt. I even assume that some healing abilities may be given. But that’s later. <sigh> The days when things actually made sense... err, kinda. It was different universe, even the Horus Heresy wasn’t described, and it is one of the current corner-stones. Again, the definition of psykers is quite clear: they actively, if not knowingly, channel warp energy. Any suggestive difference might come from the fact that Navigators ( et al.) might be true passive observers... Exactly, passive ones. I have the same trouble in trying to make it through Counter's latest rearrangement of the 'fluff' ( The Bleeding Chalice). Counter is strange enough writer, that just writes for teenagers, IMHO and thinks it should not be thought out… this deletion squad… the strangest thing I’ve read in 40k. Moreso when you've got other, potentially more interesting books to read. Enlighten on appropriate thread what you’re reading. the introduction of the 'Navigators bubble' which is extruded during warp flight (e.g. since some Navigators can see into the Warp while in the matterium, surely they could 'see' through a hull to the warp...) they look through Geller field I guess. This by the way opens another can of worms, namely how demons on chaotic warp ships guide they and how they survive inside the bubble. Tenuous if every Navigator had a unique perception, Agreed. In my version I go with family school that describe you what you should see and how interpret it. Uh, i-net time runs low, so off for now.
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 4:51:20 GMT -5
Key = Psionics. Psionics is the ability to use the mind to link to the warp. The person must have a basis of Psionic power to make the link, and then have a strong enough mind to do something productive/ destructive with the tapped warp essence. Psionics controls the warp, the warp does the business. - P1 = Receiver. They can see the warp and feel the warp. They can control how they are perceived in the warp by changing there thinking patterns to 'smooth the flow' of the warp travelling though their 'aura'. They can do this because the can see the effects their mind has on the warp.
- P2 = Transmitter. They can transmit the warp, and channel the warp (much like an electric circuit). The warp flowing through them 'empowers' the body, and the energy can be focused, directed and projected.
- P3 = Transmuter. They can transmute the warp in other forces, such as kinetic energy. To a transmuter the warp can be controlled and used as an energy source.
- P4 = Condenser [Daemonic]. They can transmute the channelled warp energy in 'normal' energy and then condense the energy into matter.
=Daemonic=P4 is a daemonic type power, and is how a daemon can step into the real word by 'condensing' their form. For a daemon to leave the warp it has to process the P4 ability at [L1] (P4@L1).Lesser daemons are L1 across the board, whereas greater daemons can have higher power levels in any ability. =Flamer of Tzeentch= P1@L1 P2@L5 P3@L1 P4@L1. At P2@L5 the Flamer can channel warp energy at huge loads and fire it out with the same effect as a plasma gun. This doesn't require any power, as the flamer is 'always on'. P4@L1 means the flamer can enter the real world if assisted via a person in the real world. Though not fully fleshed out, I would imagine that P4@L6 would give the daemon the ability to just step into the real world unaided. Obviously no daemon possesses such a power, not even the Gods of Chaos themselves (the Chaos Gods are so large and mighty, that they need extra power to condense such a large form, this will only come about at the end of time).
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 28, 2004 6:51:03 GMT -5
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 8:16:24 GMT -5
Yes, Phillip. We all know that, though just how you model things is up to the individual. Pskers aren't really hazily described in the 'fluff'... And is there a reason that you're repeating yourself? I'm starting to put it together and interlink the concepts. Most arguments are not coming down to personal preference, so it is time to start collating. Ah, repetition for including this additional power level. On an aside, if you're going to utilise the format "P a[L b]" to describe powers, don't start using the '@' symbol when talking about P4 abilities. It looks... messy and inconsistent, and although rather pedantic this level of inconsistency bugs me the most... I started using the @ symbol because you found the other method of representation I use confusing. Then, by definition, Astropaths must have P4[L1] abilities in your scheme. Which power do Astropaths have that fall into this category? Why not just use something like "P1/1, P2/5, P3/1 and P4/1"? Would P1/a or P1/b etc. look better? Or [P1/1][P2/5][P1/1][P1/1] Or [P1a][P2e][P1a][P1a] or reversed [P1g][P2c][P1g][P1g] ([P1g] looks like pig!) I would be careful with the idea of full physical manifestation as purportedly used in the War in Heaven by the eldar deities. I find it to be one of the more childish inclusions when taken in context with the rest of the background. Then I think you will hate my C'tan thread. Its in 40K so I'm taking it into account and finding ways to integrate it. Again, I wonder why you're trying to codify things in this manner. Thus far you're not actually saying anything new... Clarifying.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 28, 2004 8:47:30 GMT -5
I started using the @ symbol because you found the other method of representation I use confusing. It wasn't that, just that the way you were representing it potentially implied series, i.e. the use of the hyphen normally indicates a range although you used it as a separator. Subsequent postings clarified this. Which power do Astropaths have that fall into this category? Astropaths maintain the ability to 'manifest' their soul in the physical realm. Of course, counter argument to this is it is only an image not having substance... Would P1/a or P1/b etc. look better? Or [P1/1][P2/5][P1/1][P1/1] Whatever twiddles your biscuit. I'm not overtly fond on this representation anyway, feeling that it is a tad restrictive in it's approach. For your own purposes, since this is presumably what it's all about (free kibitzing once again! ) remember the need to be more explicit about primary psykers - and indeed I would argue that your approach is flawed in this regard (i.e. relating it to power) - and also be consistent with the 'grades' utilised by the Imperium. Then I think you will hate my C'tan thread. Its in 40K so I'm taking it into account and finding ways to integrate it. You're right... it's another one I just don't see the point in. I'm trying to decide whether to reply to it or let you and daz0 witter on to your hearts content...
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 9:07:41 GMT -5
It wasn't that, just that the way you were representing it potentially implied series, i.e. the use of the hyphen normally indicates a range although you used it as a separator. Subsequent postings clarified this. Glad to here it, I'm also thinking of a range a 'anti'-psyker abilities for the C'tan. These wouldn't be usable by humans (but machines could...). Astropaths maintain the ability to 'manifest' their soul in the physical realm. Of course, counter argument to this is it is only an image not having substance... I would put this firmly in P2. Just as P2 can transmit 'messages via the warp' in 'sound', I think they could also do it as a picture. But this would mean it is limited to Psykers seeing it only, which I'm not sure fits with the fluff (but it seems to make sense that only Psyker could see this) Whatever twiddles your biscuit. As I've mentioned previously I don't strictly agree with how you're representing things and have a horrific idea that you're going to try and utilise this in world-building, if you ever continue with that. I quite like this: [P1:1][P2:1][P3:1][P4:1] as it seems clear. I'll continue with Invictonburg, I'm just working out the schematics for the structure, may take a while as it really is big (Concentrating on an Alpha STC:CS and surrounding Beta and covering it in gothic techno churches of riveted plas-steel/create, integrating power plants etc.). Invictonburg is the 'example' of my STC:CS in action. You're right... it's another one I just don't see the point in. I'm trying to decide whether to reply to it or let you and daz0 witter on to your hearts content... I think it is important as it ties up some loose ends in the 40K universe.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 28, 2004 9:33:59 GMT -5
Glad to here it, I'm also thinking of a range a 'anti'-psyker abilities for the C'tan. These wouldn't be usable by humans (but machines could...). No, no and no. Not 'abilities', just a neural disruptor. But this would mean it is limited to Psykers seeing it only, which I'm not sure fits with the fluff (but it seems to make sense that only Psyker could see this) Well, if it isn't true to the 'fluff'... I quite like this: [P1:1][P2:1][P3:1][P4:1] as it seems clear. Again with the caveat that I don't entirely agree with the system and form of representation in the first place, yes, that is clear. I think it is important as it ties up some loose ends in the 40K universe. From what I've seen, not really...
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Post by Philip on Aug 28, 2004 10:09:39 GMT -5
No, no and no. Not 'abilities', just a neural disruptor. Eh? Change the fluff? That particular ability doesn't really fit to well, so maybe a bit of tinkering: perhaps a 'boosted' signal will affect normal humans? Excellent! Care to elaborate? Maybe I should order up a new copy of 40K...
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 28, 2004 10:27:53 GMT -5
Why invent powers when they can already disrupt psykers with a "neural disruptor" or similar technologies. (Again, though, I still represent C'tan abilities as "Magick", just without Spirit... ) Actually it suggests more than your system doesn't work very well or that you're going to have to tinker. Not on this thread, no.
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Post by zholud on Aug 30, 2004 10:07:32 GMT -5
If you're talking about my 'compartmentalisation' of the warp...? Not entirely sure what you're saying here. The lower manifold is like the surface of the sea, the boundary that you must get to fully immerse yourself (surface tension, blah blah). In some ways the upper manifold is like the bottom of the ocean, but the analogy begins to fail there since I still maintain Age of Sail imagery with some contribution from submarine technologies... I decided that up/down images of warp are somehow off, or better to say imagine ocean with multiple surfaces but without bottom. But at the same time not bulb of water in space, but real sea… we need point from where to look at it. We know that Astropath look at warp and even sees Astronomican but is unable to navigate though it. So we have either another perception or from different angle. With multiple dimensions or better to say layers of the warp it is possible that not look to but look from is the point… I now just think about Navigators are accelerated evolution of mankind to warp-creature. As one of several hypotheses. And Homo Navigatorix possibly get other traits bought in bulk together with their main ability. But this part is too raw at the moment. That doesn't quite work, remembering that they 'look' through their eye. While they are obviously neurally linked in with the control systems of a ship one must also remember that canonically the Geller Field, or at least it's strength, is under the control of the senior Magos of the ship (cf. Execution Hour). The book in question seems suggesting that shot down Geller field leads you to realspace, which I assume very wrong, so other related stuff is also doubtful… Back on topic I think that to the moment Kage-verse seems more full and fitting than Philip’s system… but I still think about adding dark and gothic Cthulhu stuff about eventually losing sanity/succumbing to the warp-powers… although Kage as I know dislikes it.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 30, 2004 18:50:17 GMT -5
I decided that up/down images of warp are somehow off... Would have to agree to an extent. It's just an interesting analogy to make. 'Up/down' could equally be replaced by lateral imagery, or 'in' and 'out' or whatever. Just depends on what you're trying to bring across. For me the up/down is merely representative of the 'lower' and 'upper' etheric planes as well as, of course, reference to Qaballah and the whole Tree of Life gig... With that said, you could also use 'integrity' for near the matterium and 'fragmentation' away from it... That is to say that the 'laws' of reality tend to fragment the further away one gets from reality, another reason about calculated vs. Navigated jump distance... (E.g. consensual reality breaks down...) or better to say imagine ocean with multiple surfaces but without bottom. Yep, most definitely a higher dimensional 'thing'. (Remembering the concept of a hypercube...) We know that Astropath look at warp and even sees Astronomican but is unable to navigate though it. So we have either another perception or from different angle. I don't think it's necessary to invent this... you're "feel" the warp idea seems to offer the perfect reason: they're engaged in some form of 'relationship' with the warp (and therefore Astronomican), one that leads to premature ageing amongst other things... With multiple dimensions or better to say layers of the warp it is possible that not look to but look from is the point… But with the above said, I agree with this to... Not only are the manifold spaces a version of this, but also the concept of "thermoclines", e.g. temperature/current variations within the ocean that are sonar-opaque creating this type of 'separation' which is more a product of the warp. Navigators have the capability of 'seeing through' the "thermocline" whereas artificial systems are incapable of this... I now just think about Navigators are accelerated evolution of mankind to warp-creature. As one of several hypotheses. Wonder if CELS would be willing to include this type of information into the Aoideans? One has to wonder whether something similar happened to them? Or at least once or sufficiently in their past to lead to their final 'transition'. but I still think about adding dark and gothic Cthulhu stuff about eventually losing sanity/succumbing to the warp-powers… Hmmn... is this not dependent entirely upon the 'willingness' of the individual and/or their knowledge? But, yes, depending on GM interpretation it is possible that "Sanity" rolls would be required... but since this is an interpretative thing, I tend to leave it to narrative/GM determination. If you wish to offer suggestions then feel free, though probably best to leave it to the other thread in RPG...
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Post by zholud on Aug 31, 2004 8:30:40 GMT -5
On Navigators I’ll just start a new thread when ii finish with work… Wonder if CELS would be willing to include this type of information into the Aoideans? One has to wonder whether something similar happened to them? Or at least once or sufficiently in their past to lead to their final 'transition'. Maybe this is the way to go. at the moment I’m unsure to what extent should Eldar, human and other races evolution to warp-race differ. For example elders go with Webways instead of Navigators, and they do it even better than humans in terms of warp travel security at least. Hmmn... is this not dependent entirely upon the 'willingness' of the individual and/or their knowledge? I just think that we should add short and long run affect of psyker’s action. Short run is described by you on RPG thread and long run should accumulate all your plays with warp, so that even any small psyker action was way below threshold, their combined weight affects you… thing like ‘chaos will get you sooner or later no matter what you do’. I don’t want to overplay that part, as GW often does but per se I think it adds thrill. But, yes, depending on GM interpretation it is possible that "Sanity" rolls would be required... but since this is an interpretative thing, I tend to leave it to narrative/GM determination I just like idea that esoteric knowledge leads others to view you as insane and the tragedy of being psyker…
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Post by Philip on Sept 4, 2004 9:42:30 GMT -5
=From the new 4th edition 40K rule book=- Ships must have a navigator.
- All Navigators have the Warp Eye.
- All Navigators are Psykers.
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