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Post by Philip on Aug 19, 2004 23:59:01 GMT -5
I would like these 'concept' threads to be for the 'brainstorming' of concepts and how they would play out, and ultimately link together with other 'concept' threads.
I would like to design a 'base concept' of 40K were all the 'fluff' becomes 'interpretations' of the base concept, but the base concept has to hold together...Open to suggestions. =GURPS tech level Conversion Table========================================== Converting tech Level into 40K C3__4 I1__5 I2__6 I3__7 A1__8/9 A2__10/11/12 The level of the Adeptus Machanicus purports to be A3__Unrecognised in GURPS? The actual level of the Adeptus Machanicus (more here) P0__Unrecognised in GURPS? P1__Unrecognised in GURPS? P2__Unrecognised in GURPS? P3__Unrecognised in GURPS? Eldar Only ========================================= =Craftsmanship=C3 =Rise of the Artisan=Advanced artisans creation custom machines, tools and weapons. Lay down the first standards the lead to the Industrial revolution (These standard are the very first instance of the STC) =Industrial=Rise of the Machine. I1 =Industrial revolution=Humans use (steam) power-driven machinery to automate work flow. I2 =Electricity=Development of electric motors, internal combustion engine. I3 =Contemporary Science=Use of advanced computers, early space missions using rocket technology. First ion drives. Development of recycling technologies. =Artificial=The rise of the Artificial, Artificial Intelligence and life. A1 =Advanced science='All science and no warp' Invention of self repairing non sentient AI, unified field theory, advanced (sub-light) engines, Refinement of self-sufficient lifestyle and sustainable habitat (Lead to the STCS:CS later). A2=Phaze field theory=( The level of the Adeptus Machanicus purports to be) 'Uses fields to distort reality and knocks on the door of the warp' Invention of sentient Artificial Intelligence, forcefields and powerfields and Total Conversion Drive. Though the effects aren't as 'distorting' as pure psyker powers, they can be machine built and fed huge energies to perform useful functions. These machine distortions are crude but work well. A3 =Geller field theory= ( The actual level of the Adeptus Machanicus) 'Science, and opens the door to the warp but fails to understand'. Bubble in a bubble Based on Phase field theory, machines are built within the 'phased bubble' and making use of the distorted physics within, these machine can produce new 'super bubbles' with greater 'distortions'. The greatest distortion destroys reality and drops what ever was within the 'super distortion bubble' into the 'warp'. Accidents Warp 'Drop Drive' invented but has a disastrous safety record. Warp jumps are very short and very dangerous, even with the most advanced AI over the shortest jumps, accidents are to be expected. Limits of Machines Machines cannot perceive the warp, corrections can't be made 'in jump'. The ship's AI calculates the warp course to be travelled based on the minute effects/ distortions the warp has on the material universe. Once in the warp the ship is 'blind' until it drops back into reality. The numbers A One light year jump: 1% disappear, 20% are random exits within a 2 light year radius. Disappearance % = LY² Random exits % = LY x 20 Radius = LY² x 2. A 5 light year jump: 25% chance or the ship disappearing. If it doesn't disappear it has a 100% chance of a random exit within a radius of 50 light years (Heavy bodies attract, so .0002% chance of materializing within a planet). Health and Safety All jumps are limited to a series 1 light year jumps (jumps under one light year have the same failure rates). Humans start to colonise nearby stars, but progress is very slow and many ships are lost. The Link It is only when the connection between the warp and 'psykers' is realized that true warp travel can begin. See P1 below. =Psyker (bio-mechanical & warp mix)=All biological creatures are classified as 'bio-machines' that can be genetically engineered. Psykers are the most advanced of all biological life. They are classified here are 'technology', this is from a Slann perspective. Psykers use energy from the warp. P0 =Emotional Life Forms='Biological life has a link to the warp, it's emotions effect the warp, but emotional creatures are unaware of the warp' Emotions cause turbulence in the flow of the warp, and gives rise to sentience within within the warp. The presence of creature with higher intelligence affect the warp more strongly. P1 =Psyker communication='All psyker, resultant effects are all in the warp' Isolation of the recessive 'Bordoc' gene and founding of the 'Navigator programme' leads to the first successful jumps. The navigator is the first successful use of 'psyker' gene-engineering by the military, and with it, science expands its horizons and seeks to understand the new psyker phenomenon. Navigator gene: Can talk via telepathy, and maintains awareness of the material universe from within the warp via connection to another Psyker that is still in the material universe. Can correct flights 'in jump' through 'feeling the warp'. The Navigator gene allows jumps of 10 Light years with 0.01% failure rate (Disappearance % = LY² / 10,000). The longest jump ever recorded was 550 light years, by the Star ship 'NWO Brilliance'. P2 =Psyker channeling='Psykers fall into this group' Channel warp energy, energy reacts with the real to form magical effects. Can form forcefields but are very weak as the psyker can't generate/ channel enough energy. Can hurl mind bolts, and control others actions through force of will. P3 =Psychometric engineering=Warp power changes the material. No science, All psyker based, but all the effects are all in and affect the material universe. Warp gates can be fashioned, psychometric armour etc. =Daemonic=Both the mechanical and biologic have 'daemonic' counter parts in the warp. D1 =Daemonic='All Warp' To be developed later...
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Post by Dazo on Aug 20, 2004 0:53:38 GMT -5
Nice, so where do space marines fit into that. I would like to see a higher tech ability above 9 which doesn't automatically go into mechanicus territory. What about unified field theory, this would or should be know/proven of by TL A1 but would give god like abilities to those able to utilise it. Replicators, energy conversion, disruptor weapons, particle weapons and so on and so forth
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Post by Philip on Aug 20, 2004 1:15:19 GMT -5
Nice, so where do space marines fit into that. Space Marine armour is A1 technology, but because it is so advanced it could be reverse engineered and used as a basis of research and offerers hints of A2. The advance part is the Space Marine Power Armour is its Neuro fibre bundle control (slave) AI. I would like to see a higher tech ability above 9 which doesn't automatically go into mechanicus territory. So would the rest of the Imperium! 40K is very restrictive, the Adeptus Machanicus has a total monopoly on all advanced technology. The Adaptus Machincus will restrict A1 technology as it is the building block to A2. The Adeptus Machanicus does not want anyone to come up with any A2 tech outside their control and will move heavan and earth to stop it. A2 lead to A3 and A3 is the warp. No human is dropping in the the warp without the Imperium sanctioning it. The warp is very dangerous, unlike Star Wars/ Star Trek etc. Navigators are the key to controlling warp travel. What about unified field theory, this would or should be know/proven of by TL A1 but would give god like abilities to those able to utilise it. Replicators, energy conversion, disruptor weapons, particle weapons and so on and so forth Unified field theory of the material universe, however 40K has a spanner in the work in the form of the warp. Also just because humans understand all the links doesn't give them free reign to do 'god like things'. They are still limited by machines and the laws of physics. Many assumed technologies at A1 level never come about. Replicators=no energy conversion=limited disruptor weapons=no particle weapons=Yes (but ineffective) Contra-Grav/ Anti-Grav is A2 Tech. In Starships they don't use these systems, they have 'magnetic boots' (this is why all artwork the crew have thick soles on their boots). =Restricted Tech=All restricted tech is supplied by the Adeptus Machanicus (in Brown OEM boxes ) and are fitted by the Adeptus Machanicus. All restricted tech is 'boxed off' in armour plating and protected further by forcefields. The only people with access to and can service the restricted tech is the Adeptus Machanicus. As only the Adeptus Machanicus have access to forcefields, it is very hard anyone who is not Adeptus Machanicus to get past the forcefields and attack the armour plating. =Invictonburg=In my Hive world example 'Invictonburg', I specify that they build Starships. But is is more accurate description would be to say they build the 'superstructure and shell' with mount points (built to Adeptus Machanics spec) for installing the 'restricted technologies'. The restricted technologies include: shields, fields and warp engines. =Warp Engines=Warp engines are build inside a 'phased' field. This special field is a distorted version of our physics, were impossible reaction can occur and the 'unified field theory' is shifted and changed. Inside these fields impossible machines can be built, the warp engine is one of these machines. =Look of the warp engine=. Fourteen huge metal posts arranged around a sphere, each pointing to the sphere centre and each mounting a 'phase field' generator. These generators create a spherical phase field which houses the warp engine. The warp engine levitates within the phase field. As light reacts differently in the phase field, the whole engine is looks like a great swirling, shimmering, iridescent 'black hole' (its not a black hole though) mounted in a special cage. (artistic note: the protective cage around the phase field is very ornate, like cast iron Victorian scroll work.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 20, 2004 1:37:24 GMT -5
So does the imperium not use anti matter. I don't think the imperium would have Zpoint energy, and if they did where's all the world destroying weapons that could be created from such an energy source. And the space marines, I was refering to the bio tech side where does that fit in, because it seems to me to be more complex and advanced than power armour
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Post by Philip on Aug 20, 2004 2:12:49 GMT -5
So does the imperium not use anti matter. I don't think the imperium would have Zpoint energy, and if they did where's all the world destroying weapons that could be created from such an energy source. I'm undecided on zero point energy, and how much the Imperium can manipulate it. I'm sure they are aware of both (if they exist). Any ideas? And the space marines, I was refering to the bio tech side where does that fit in, because it seems to me to be more complex and advanced than power armour Biotech is A1 too. All biotec is restricted as it can be used to create psykers and enhanced warriors. Therefore is it categorised as 'weapons manufacture' and comes under the control of [?] The Navigator Nobles will seek instant destruction of anyone with a 'navigator gene' that isn't from the original Navigator programme. Navigator can sense other with the navigator gene so they will be instantly aware of any newly created 'Navigators'. Anyone found mucking about with DNA is executed. Even space marine are not allowed to alter there DNA directly (hence the implants/ geneseed).
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Post by Dazo on Aug 20, 2004 2:21:18 GMT -5
Perhaps its utilised in those cyclonic torpedoes i've heard so much about.
would they, or would they snarf them up to increase the power of their family. They are not the inquisition.
Is it the high lords or the administratum who green light new space marine chapters
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Post by zholud on Aug 20, 2004 8:50:43 GMT -5
The navigator is the first successful use of 'psyker' gene-engineering by the military, quote]I will murder you slowly, after all the work I’ve done on Navigators and after my discussion on Portent now – here.
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 20, 2004 11:23:26 GMT -5
I can only ask one question: What's the point? While it makes a tad more sense than daz0's suggestion of 'mark n' or whatever it still is essentially creating an abstraction to abstract an abstraction. Clustering things together and putting it into neat little categories without the more continuous GTL/TTL system (which is just an abstraction) means that it might be more accessible to "those not in the know" and while this is useful in some terms it is not in others. (E.g. the one good thing about the UWP system, including the TTL/GTL thing, is that it doesn't generalise too much so you have to read a bit more to understand what is going on and, in essence, perform the same kind of activity that a scholar in the 40k universe would have to do!) With that said I'm going to keep on open mind on this as a final addendum which we might add, but at no point will we be using these instead of the UWP and TTL convention. As I said before, it is both useful and pointless at the same time. I do, however, disagree with some of these things... No. GTL10 is the highest, at least in the schema that I operate. While they might be be able to manufacture limited GTL11 artefacts, perhaps even GTL12, these are the only real purpose for STC. Quite simply they have a manufacturing capability of GTL10. Everything else is limited manufacture or archaeotech. Based upon the limited examples and grossly fitting it into the standard GTL system, the Golden/Dark Age rates no more than a GTL12. If you allow for advanced research, it might have rated a GTL13. (And, no, not done by the nRobots!) Of course, I can be sold on alternatives if you come up with a damned good argument... a damned good one. Nope. Their level is admittedly not recognised, as it were, by the others of the Imperium... but the GTL system is just a means of abstracting technology in general. Don't fall into the horrendous trap of mystifying it in the mechanicus. Leave that to the narrative. Your interpretation of the psykers is lacking, for me. While in 'fluffing' them out you do not have to work on the same concepts as I do - that's kind of the point of intepretation - I am very wary of throwing out generalisations like this without substance. The 'fluff' does that too often and that way leads inconsistency. Also, what is the point in having three levels of unrecognised? How do they even know... No such thing as the Industrial Revolution, I'm afraid. ;D Not at first. There was a huge resistance to machines integrated into the workplace, and it was only later that the domestic industry began to integrate things like steam looms and this was only later (ish) paralleled by 'factories'. The period is far more complex than it is often represented. Gotta try and integrate your 'hive STC' concept. Do not like the mention of STCS:CS since I also don't agree with the very concept as you explain it. The physical form is fine, with modification (i.e. total self-sufficiency I'm unkeen on because, well, this is the 40k universe) but I have not been 'sold' on your concepts for origins, genesis, purpose, etc. Basically the whole history. Best to leave out mention of this if you want it integrated as some point into ASP. Nope. Forcefields, at least in standard GURPS (and 40k is not standard) comes in around GTL12, which is kind of fine for where they were... but again, using forcefields as you describe them (i.e. warp fields) is not something that I'm keen on or even necessarily agree on. Again, it comes down to interpretation. I don't like the suggestion that you've got "magic fields", regardless of you saying that it's not magic. Furthermore, machines capable of 'distorting' reality in the way that you're talking about are the provenance of the eldar and necrons... At least in the 'fluff'. Warp drive is earlier, at least in 'standard' level. GTL10. Why must there be a natural progression from this to the other levels? Why cannot you have a different level of development? Don't overextend this 'dangers of warp travel' business. Note that the warp was meant to be reasonably calm during this period to allow the expansion of humanity using calculated warp jumps... furthermore, note that the current travel times are averages presumably based upon current drives. Thus don't make the assumption that everytime you take a warp jump you put a revolver to your head with five of the chambers filled with live rounds... Incorrect. The 'fluff' is clear that 'machines' can not only perceive the warp from the matterium but may also represent the warp. Incorrect. See above. The question is whether it can truly react. Also note that 'warp drives' are not likely to be MI, but AI/PI thus while 'heuristic' they are not going to be reacting as sentient beings. Interesting, but I would say the figures are way of base and far far[/i] too high. I do not agree with them. Your disappearance statistic is about as far off bat as I think you can get. And I dislike this random exit point... it seems to miss the whole point of the calculated warp jump, overstates the importance and point of the Navigators amongst a whole swathe. It buys in with the shallow 'fluff' at the expense of the greater majority of the material. This will not be included as it stands. Incorrect. Calculated warp jumps are limited to 1-5 light years. Chances are they are much slower and depending on the 'local state' of the warp, danger increases dramatically. Incorrect, at least according to the 'fluff'. Of course, this is one of those contradictory points. Only the eldar were meant to understand the link between the warp and the psyker (or was it mind?), but that never made a great deal of sense. Standard sci-fi refers to them as bioroids. What about latency, intuition, etc. Intelligence is, according to the 'fluff', not meant to affect things that much. The Old Slann were supposedly highly intelligence, yet they didn't affect the warp. Same with the Necrons, etc. They lead to longer jumps, true. There is no evidence of this with the possible exception of the Paternova. Again, over-statement. Now you're talking semantics. All psykers manipulate warp energy to some extent. What you're essentially saying, depending on how you actually model psykers (and not just hand-wave), is that they are limited to effects which are predicated upon the 'mind'. As discussed before it is unnecessary to create a new 'psionic system' for such a thing, again depending on the system you use to model. Of course, not modelling it is kind of missing the point but there we go. <sigh> What type of forcefields? When they let off wind can they fly? Sorry, that was uncalled for... I disagree intensely. Well, that's enough for now. Sorry for what might sound a bit harsh, but you've basically integrated a lot of concepts that I'm not overtly fond of and mashed them together with interpretations that I dislike in a way that I don't like. Guess it kind of started when you got the GTL of the adeptus mechanicus completely wrong!
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 20, 2004 11:27:50 GMT -5
Ah well, perhaps the pressure is beginning to tell... If you wish to carry on with this then please consider the following points: - The GTL/TTL system will remain. There will be no replacement by this system since, ultimately, there is no point. The grainy system might make it easy to shoe-horn some technologies into things, but still... No. The adeptus mechanicus is capable of 'manufacting' GTL10 equipment, and a more limited scale through the use of STC GTL11 and 12, perhaps even very, very, very, very rare human GTL13 or trying to get at xenotech.
- The concept of archaeotech will remain.
- Would be useful to make the 'fluff' match up together and not just rewrite it to something that is radically different. (Cf. Navigators as well as 'machine perception of the warp.)
- I do not like the "Total Conversion Drive" - still - and therefore any reference to it will be stricken at this point from the ASP. Keep on trying to sell it to me, but I don't like making things work by magic only to say "But it's not magic, it's technology... just technology that pyskers utilise because I define them as advanced bioroids which, after all, are technology because they were 'manufactured' by the Old Ones (or whatever).
- The utilisation of "unrecognised" lacks a point, in my mind. The ASP does not use the 'mechanics' to create mystery, but rather a framework through which narrative and interpretation can do so.
Enough for now...
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Post by Dazo on Aug 20, 2004 12:34:03 GMT -5
RRGGG ARGGG, kage awakes the sleeping dragon. Excuse me! I made perfect sense. True I may not be as concise in my explanations, the MK system makes infinatly more sense than the rather meaningless TL system which is so broad you could fit an emporer class battleship between its vague descriptions of what it represents. *raised eyebrow smiley* you mean idiots?. You probably don't but thats what it sounds like you are saying. This may seem strange coming from someone who hate's the AM but i think you are radically underestimating their capabilities, I think they would posses far graeter tech than GW would be willing to make mainstream as the imperium would be come to powerful for their gaming capabilities to support. An all powerful Imperium makes for poor sales figures. Lets not box ourselves in as GW have chosen to do, the backward looking tech they have adopted is not based on reality but on looking cool, you can quote fluff all you want, but that is only there to enhance GW blinkered view and their concept of humanity 38k from now. Oh I'm sorry, so what exactly happened 100 years ago, with the discovery of steam power and coal, and steel, and the putting together of all these new technologies that made britain the most awesome nation on the face of the earth...ever. Explain yourself Its mass production at its best, can you honestly see the imperium taking a different route because I can't. Fine, but if 40k isn't standard you can't apply a standard measurement system, translate GURPS into the 40k version, where would force fields, power fields void shields go No. warp drive should be GTL13, if it GTL10 then any monkey could invent it, this should be the pinacle of imperial tech, show me one thats more advanced than transdimesional transit. Incorrect. The warp is chaos undiluted. Machines are logic incarnate the two do not mix, period, not the imperial ones anyway. The fluff is clearly as contradictory as the warp itself I would also point out the fluff is more than clear that the imperium stretches to the very limits of the galaxy, you yourself have seen fit to contradict this Does not translate as aware of, we are essencially made up of nothing, but we are not aware of it, everything seems normal and solid, we wouldn't have a clue that between our atoms nothing exists, beyond a weak electromagnetic force that holds our entire universe together. So whats your objection to the Imperium extending beyond the astronomicon then eh eh eh *snarl, snap, grumble*
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 20, 2004 12:59:19 GMT -5
Took me a while to reply this since I was amused by the "'fluff' quoting" comment. Please also note that the suggestion was that the system was applicable 'after the fact' and not as a reinvention, since it does little in that regard. There was also the statement that reference to specific interpretations regarding "bubble tech" and "STC:CS" (or whatever) would not at this point be included. Again, though, that did not preclude the long-term use of such categories. (Though beyond this I still question the point...) RRGGG ARGGG, kage awakes the sleeping dragon. Excuse me! I made perfect sense. I didn't say you didn't make sense, only the system that you presented in terms of a broad and, supposedly, 'more comprehendable system'. I direct you back to the thread and the congent and lucid comments made therein by numerous members of the forum. [ *raised eyebrow smiley* you mean idiots?. You probably don't but thats what it sounds like you are saying. No, just those that don't know the system. Remember I said it does have some uses, more specifically in "colour text" regarding adeptus mechanicus interpretation of technologies. There categorisation might be inescapable, just as the rather inprecise "Bronze Ages", etc., are used in the modern world. (Or, indeed, "Industrial Revolution".) And let's just face it... Look what the above is doing. All it does is ignore 'early technology' (and society) and then mash up certain TLs. It in no way makes it any way 'more' or 'less' acceptable except that without the reference to the GTL it tells you only that the adeptus mechanicus is more advanced than they let on. Which we already now... This may seem strange coming from someone who hate's the AM but i think you are radically underestimating their capabilities, I think they would posses far graeter tech than GW would be willing to make mainstream as the imperium... There are significant gaps already created. No need to make them more advanced than the eldar or the Necrons, which the above does. Lets not box ourselves in as GW have chosen to do, the backward looking tech they have adopted is not based on reality but on looking cool... Again, this is one of those points where you have to understand the system. GTL10 conforms to all the 'gadgets' of 40k while allowing for a whole lot more. you can quote fluff all you want, but that is only there to enhance GW blinkered view and their concept of humanity 38k from now. The TL system isn't "blinkered" in the same way. I said it was more complex than common interpretation would allow. Consider the transition from an organic to mineral based economy. Pardon? Quite simply, or at least arguably, a shift away from organic resources for something as simple as firewood and into mineral (read: coal) resources allowed an expansion of agrarian activity, a feature mirrored in the process of inclosure that was progressing throughout the late 16th to 19th centuries. Then again, the actual utilisation of coal as a significant 'industrial resource' does not generally occur until the mid-19th century where it is true that Britain could, because of the numerous shallow and substantial deposits seen, exploit it and did so more than any other country... But what about 'technology'? As mentined previously, the "revolution" aspects of the "Industrial Revolution" are very hard to define, if they exist at all. It was a byplay of features including, but not limited to, shifting nuptiality and concomittant effects on birth/mortality rates (and of course economy), coupled with alterations to the agriculture of the period (shifting away over several centuries from the 'feudal system'). Expansion of the communications infrastructure, first in the firm of roads then canals and only later the railway was also going to have a significant impact... Back to technology again. The implications of technology were not always understood. Consider one of the first 'steam engines' was actually used to raise water to power a water wheel rather than provide motive power itself... Again, it was not until much later that things become monkeying around. All in all, as many an undergraduate finds out about transitional states in history/archaeology, they are very rarely as sharp and defined as people would like to admit in the use of the "Age" system. There was no 'neolithic revolution', nor an 'industrial revolution'. Rather they were culminations of events taking centuries to integrate themselves... Oh yes, and that doesn't stop the fact that Britain became the powerful Empire that it did. Just means that there was not a stupendous 'revolution' where, suddenly, everything changes. Its mass production at its best, can you honestly see the imperium taking a different route because I can't. Only in the production of 'artefacts' which lay beyond their current understanding (read: STC). Fine, but if 40k isn't standard you can't apply a standard measurement system, translate GURPS into the 40k version, where would force fields, power fields void shields go I do and it works. Wanting to apply a grainy version is fine but doesn't actually help us at the moment. No. warp drive should be GTL13, if it GTL10 then any monkey could invent it, this should be the pinacle of imperial tech, show me one thats more advanced than transdimesional transit. I would suggest that you're kind of missing the point. The implication here is that warp drive is at the pinnacle of human tech but that it is not necessarily at the pinnacle of adeptus mechanicus tech. Furthermore it also suggests that, perhaps, more advanced versions were available in the G/DAoT. I'm reminded of someone's arguments on 'marks'... Incorrect. The warp is chaos undiluted. Machines are logic incarnate the two do not mix, period, not the imperial ones anyway. Read your 'fluff'. The warp is not 'chaos undiluted'. Not in the slightest or even by a long shot. The warp is a place into which Chaos offers a 'corrupting' and distrubing presence. This is implied heavily throughout the 'fluff' except in some of the shallow recent material (not saying that it is all shallow)... Check out the Realms of Chaos as well as original articles in WD139/140. I would also point out the fluff is more than clear that the imperium stretches to the very limits of the galaxy, you yourself have seen fit to contradict this Again, read your 'fluff'. When they have stated the dimensions of the Astronomican they have stated 50,000 light years. That takes it to the limits of the galaxy only in certain directions. Artistic images have produced some contradiction to this. I go with the 'fluff' rather than the art when it is available. Does not translate as aware of, we are essencially made up of nothing, but we are not aware of it, everything seems normal and solid, we wouldn't have a clue that between our atoms nothing exists, beyond a weak electromagnetic force that holds our entire universe together. <grin> So how do you know it? And what does that have to do with anything? So whats your objection to the Imperium extending beyond the astronomicon then eh eh eh The "Imperium" is defined by the Astronomican, the lovely little thing that gives them a 'privileged' fast transportation capability. Outside of this they're as hamstrung as the rest... I've kind of mentioned this before, although perhaps not specifically to you. I've been discussing the 40k universe in numerous ways for a long time... you sometimes forget who knows what.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 21, 2004 0:41:15 GMT -5
;DIt's always a joy to cross blades with you kage Ah but there was a point at which we kicked mother nature in the face and told her to sling her hook. The Idusrial revolution was the turning of natural into manmade, man made stone, metal, power. True much of the tech that was part of the IR had been around for a while but it was the putting together of all these disparete elements that constituted the revolution, and yes i't didn't happen overnight but who said it has to. It was all part of the steam age which wouldn't have been possible without the iron age and the secret of steel and other alloys, which in turn wouldn't have happened without the bronze age and the discovery of metal and the art of smelting which wouldn't have been possible witout the stoneage and the manipulation of natural resources for tools to dig. What you are describing is not so much the revoution but evolution :)You see what i did there, clever huh Touche` Ah well we won't ever agree on this then as i always go with the pictures Its one thing to "know somthing" but its etirely different to be "aware of somthing" wouldn't you agree Yes but you had just finished saying that philip was overplaying the part of the navigator, and that computers could manage warp transit and that they didn't do as badly as philip had said they did, ie mankind was doing fine with warp travel without the help of navigators. So naturally I assumed that maybe the astronomicon wasnt as important as it was made out to be. I still believe that the astronomicon only really comes into play during warp storms and allows the navigator to get his bearings it would be of little use in a journey between two far flung worlds where the astronomicon was behind the ship. Certain things I have read lead me to belive they are that advanced, though only in spits and spots obviously And that the mechanicus is possibly more powerful than the imperium, now my source on this info is unknown to me, meaning i don't know how much was official fluff and how much was made up but he seemed to know what he was talking about [ftp]http://www.tmotest.com/mirusproject/Home/PSLiberMechanicusPT1.cfm?x=1&Res=800[/ftp]
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Post by Kage2020 on Aug 21, 2004 1:48:39 GMT -5
;DIt's always a joy to cross blades with you kage In this case it's not overtly enjoyable, but primarily because I'm concentrating on other things. Ah but there was a point at which we kicked mother nature in the face and told her to sling her hook. If you wish to romanticise the 'industrial revolution' and buy into the name, then feel free. Modern historians tend not to after they became more aware of the practical realities. It is only revolutionary in the sense that at point 'a' things are 'there' and at point 'b' they are 'over there', two different points with a gap inbetween. What you are describing is not so much the revoution but evolution :)You see what i did there, clever huh Yes, unfortunately it's one of the biggest cliches. I'm somewhat embarassed to say that I tediously used the same phrase in an essay on the "How revolutionary was the Neolithic revolution?" Ah well we won't ever agree on this then as i always go with the pictures A common problem in men, I hear. All that learning visually business. Its one thing to "know somthing" but its etirely different to be "aware of somthing" wouldn't you agree Which was the point I was originally getting at but you changed it with mention of subatomic particles... Go on, read it again! Yes but you had just finished saying that philip was overplaying the part of the navigator... Yes, the numbers were completely off. Navigators are important since they, like having "privileged" technology from the adeptus mechanicus gives the Imperium an edge over its constituent worlds. So naturally I assumed that maybe the astronomicon wasnt as important as it was made out to be. Beyond the specific statement in 'colour text' it isn't when you give it due consideration. It does, however, define the Imperium, e.g. the point at which the advantage that they enjoy breaks down. Certain things I have read lead me to belive they are that advanced, though only in spits and spots obviously Funnily enough, that's the point of the TL series though it gets a tad complex because of the nature of the adeptus mechanics and its relationship with the Imperium. And that the mechanicus is possibly more powerful than the imperium... It is a part of the Imperium. Without it the Imperium, as it stands, would be in a great deal of trouble but I'll let you into a little secret (well, it's not really): if the adeptus mechanicus went rogue then the Imperium would not fall. ...he seemed to know what he was talking about... Nice sit. It's always good to see people not merely plagerising but at least paraphrasing from numerous sources! He buys into the common assumption about the adeptus mechanicus which doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there we go. But now that is completely OffT and therefore, at least for the most part, irrelevant.
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Post by Sojourner on Aug 22, 2004 10:00:43 GMT -5
Aroogah! Aroogah!
Wrong...at least in GW-canon. Leman Russ is recorded to have piloted the Winter Wolf from somewhere in Segmentum Ultima all the way to Earth, with the implication that it was a single jump.
Good overview, though. Nicely tailored to 40k.
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Post by Philip on Aug 22, 2004 10:40:28 GMT -5
would they, or would they snarf them up to increase the power of their family. They are not the inquisition. Being Nobles in charge of a huge monopoly, I think the Navigator Houses would see the 'upstart imposter' and the scientists on the world which created the 'fake' as a huge threat and seek to destroy all of them. The Navigators may want 'samples' and dissect the imposter. The point I want to emphasise is that in 40K the Imperium has a very strict control over warp travel as the warp is a very dangerous place. However this is a tie in with my ideas on the Adeptus Machanicus... I will murder you slowly, after all the work I’ve done on Navigators and after my discussion on Portent now – here.Also, what is the point in having three levels of unrecognised? How do they even know... =GURPS conversion=The 'Unrecognised' bit in the GURPS conversion table was to make a point that GURPS doesn't have that type of technology in their tech level system. I put the question mark in just in case GURPS does cover these types of technologies and you could post them (which I'm more than happy to look at . Well, that's enough for now. Sorry for what might sound a bit harsh, but you've basically integrated a lot of concepts that I'm not overtly fond of and mashed them together with interpretations that I dislike in a way that I don't like. =40K and GURPS are different=So far your arguments against the concepts I have put forward seems to boils down to: 'I don't like it'. Saying you don't like the concepts isn't really helping if you don't explain why you don't like it. At the moment it seems you don't like it because it will make it harder to convert into GURPS not because it doesn't suit 40K. =Brainstorming=I'm not saying my concepts would be suitable for Anargo, but you are more than welcome to take what ever bits you like. I would like these 'concept' threads to be for the 'brainstorming' of concepts and how they would play out, and ultimately link together. =Final Goal=The 40K fluff is deliberately 'contradictory'. I would like to design a 'base concept' of 40K were all the 'fluff' becomes 'interpretations' of the base concept, but the base concept has to hold together. I'm doing this because I'd like to have a deeper understanding of the universe I'm representing in my artwork. Therefore the concepts I'm putting forward are designed specifically to fit 40K and is my attempt to explain why the universe of 40K looks and feels the way it does. These concepts are just hypothetical. The ideas may be incorporated into artwork via design, then again, they may not. =40K=I paint 40K because it feels different to all the other sci-fi out there. Through my posts I think you see how different my interpretation of 40K is to yours. I don't want 40K to become another 'generic' universe, I like its differences and I would like to emphasise them rather than sweep them under the carpet. Aroogah! Aroogah! Wrong...at least in GW-canon. Leman Russ is recorded to have piloted the Winter Wolf from somewhere in Segmentum Ultima all the way to Earth, with the implication that it was a single jump. N.W.O. Brilliance was from the Golden Age of Technology, and I completely made it up as there is very little fluff of that time period. I'm quite happy to change it/or include Russ' mega jump if you can give me details. Good overview, though. Nicely tailored to 40k. Thanks
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