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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 1:28:45 GMT -5
I would like these 'concept' threads to be for the 'brainstorming' of concepts and how they would play out, and ultimately link together with other 'concept' threads.
I would like to design a 'base concept' of 40K were all the 'fluff' becomes 'interpretations' of the base concept, but the base concept has to hold together...
=Fluff Rewrite=
=Time Travel= I do not like the concept of time travel, it just seems 'wrong'. However the warp is an unusual place and through the interaction between the material universe and the warp, time travel could be possible, yet in reality, a person will not have tampered with time itself.
=Differential Time Theory= In the material universe time is constant, though sci-fi/ science etc has time as a curve yakkerty-yak.
In the warp time flows at different rates. It is possible for some parts of the warp to have time move so slowly it has almost stopped, where as in others parts it is greatly accelerated. However time in the warp doesn't reverse or completely stop (complete stop is the god of law, form ye old myth of WFB). Likewise reversing time is against chaos: Chaos is really change, and therefore reversing time would be undoing changes.
=Dead Pool= The warp flows and runs like water, and just like water eddies and pools can form. The warp is tied to time, time and the warp flow together. If the warp flow slows, time will also be slowed along with it. In a very calm bit of the warp, so slow it hardly flows, time can slow down to the point it almost comes to a complete stop.
The 'time' in these pools could be from the earliest point in the universe (when time came into being), so in the material universe it could be just after the big bang. These pools of time are called 'dead pools'.
=Travelling back in time via the warp= If a warp capable Starship while travelling the warp were to encounter a storm and was knocked of coarse, the Starship could accidentally drift into one of these 'dead pools'. As the warp doesn't flow in a dead pool, the ship is stranded until its 'warp jump' comes to and end. The problem is, when the Starship drops back into the material universe, it is at the beginning of time.
In effect it has travelled back billions of years, yet time always flowed forward.
In order to avoid jumping back in time, the Geller field is cut and the Starship drops back into the Material Universe, though nowhere near it original destination.
Extra: Dead pools have a high gravity centre, where a 'hole' leads back to the martial universe. The hole is related to the big bang, dropping through the hole drops the Starship into the big bang were the Starship will be instantly vaporised, and give rise to anomalies in the Time line. This explains the ever changing of GW Fluff!
=Travelling forward in time via warp= If the Starship enters a warp storm, an eddie of spinning warp energy, time is also accelerated. The Starship will be destroyed by the power of the storm and so the Ship has to drop out of the warp as quickly as possible. As time was moving faster in the warp, the Starship will return to the material universe in the (relative) future.
=Navigating the warp= All well used warp routes run through stable even flowing warp. Dead pools and warp storms are avoided at all costs.
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Post by CELS on Aug 11, 2004 1:36:49 GMT -5
I'm not touching this subject with a ten-foot breaching spear Time travel is too freaky for my fragile mind to even contemplate, as I cannot imagine what would happen if someone from the future would change the history to such an effect that it effected them as well. The Back To The Future trilogy was entertaining and all, but to make it possible to travel back in time in 40k, one is forced to make fantastic assumptions which probably don't make sense at all. But then again, I'm no scientist
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 1:49:39 GMT -5
Time travel is too freaky for my fragile mind to even contemplate, as I cannot imagine what would happen if someone from the future would change the history to such an effect that it effected them as well. The Back To The Future trilogy was entertaining and all, but to make it possible to travel back in time in 40k, one is forced to make fantastic assumptions which probably don't make sense at all Time travel concept in all sci-fi is flawed. That is why I wrote the above, to make it easier to understand. However, I think if you go back in time using this method, you 'erase' your future self. Why ersae? Because otherwise you're a duplicate, and the universe just gained some mass. Your erased by time in the material universe 'snapping back'. Time will still be relative to you personally, you will remember you child hood etc. But you will never have actually lived it any more. Travelling back in time from the warp, means you just 'pop' into being. All the atoms that will make you in the future are 'sucked' from wherever they are in the universe in order to compose you. This means they will have moved, so they will never progress naturally to form you in the future. Which leads to the question 'How did you come into being if you never existed?' You don't, your an anomaly, and just you mere presence has royally screwed the time line.
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Post by Dazo on Aug 11, 2004 1:55:56 GMT -5
Mmmm I don't actually believe the principle of time should really be used for the warp, time is a constraint placed on our universe the warp is timeless, which is why two days in the warp may be 2 months in real space. Its inconstant but does not go backwards in my opinion. You would have to have great power to manipulate the warp itself, change it so you could go back in time. This can be done by chaos but i don't believe it is a naturally occuring phenomena that you just wonder into. Including the big bang theory is somewhat risky as we don't really know what happened. For all you know the warp could be whats outside the universe all universe's for that matter and so the big bang might have no impact on it what so ever or dropping into it might not not actually be possible as the there wasn't actually a universe to drop into. Or if the warp and our universe were both created then, then there wouldn't be a warp at the time of the big bang as it had'n t been created yet so you would be dropping out of nothing into nothing Time travel give's me a headache
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 1:59:05 GMT -5
Mmmm I don't actually believe the principle of time should really be used for the warp, time is a constraint placed on our universe the warp is timeless, which is why two days in the warp may be 2 months in real space. Its inconstant but does not go backwards in my opinion. You would have to have great power to manipulate the warp itself, change it so you could go back in time. This can be done by chaos but i don't believe it is a naturally occuring phenomena that you just wonder into. I agree, so I trying to make it work. I'm not saying there is any way to influence time, just that is acts different in the warp. Time is always constant, I would imagine that in 'actual reality' time is constant in the warp too, but in relation to the martial universe its variable (Ok, I my have gone too far with that one).
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Post by Dazo on Aug 11, 2004 2:05:48 GMT -5
What happened there, must've been some kinda warp anomally Then lets say this, time is linear in real space but the warp affects the percieved flow by altering the rate at which time flows for an object within the warp, the dead pools are a good idea. Thse would be regions where the passage of time is most altered, the points at which time slows the most in the warp. so 1 day in the dead pool could mean a passage of time in real space of millenia. Time travel of a sort but only in one direction I've never yet heard of an instance where a ship dropped out of warp before it entered, so thats why i'm assuming that the warp only slows the rate of time flow
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 2:29:26 GMT -5
What happened there, must've been some kinda warp anomally Yep! Bet GW fluff changed too. Then lets say this, time is linear in real space but the warp affects the percieved flow by altering the rate at which time flows for an object within the warp, the dead pools are a good idea. Thse would be regions where the passage of time is most altered, the points at which time slows the most in the warp. so 1 day in the dead pool could mean a passage of time in real space of millenia. Time travel of a sort but only in one direction That what I am thinking I've never yet heard of an instance where a ship dropped out of warp before it entered, so thats why i'm assuming that the warp only slows the rate of time flow In my reply to CELS I put forward the idea of being 'erased'. Just as it would effect a human it would effect the ship too. All the atoms the one day in the far flung future would going making that ship would snap to the point were the ship re-enters the material universe (in the past). This would mean all the atoms to make that ship in the future will have been moved, therefore they will never be used to create it. What I'm saying is that you will never hear of a ship going back in the war, - because as soon as it does it will be erased from the present. It will never have existed to all those who live here and now in the present. Example: If you have a brother, who goes back in time, you will never have known him. You will never have grown up with him. He will remember you though.
If he manages to jump forward again, the universe snaps back the other way. As soon as the ship re-enters the warp the atoms that make it 'revert back to their original position'.This means if a ship started travelling about, it would be playing havoc with the future as the atoms keep jumping back and forth to from their original natural state and to form the ship. Mind you this does raise the idea that a ship that jumps just 'disintegrates', and upon arrival at it new destination the 'denigrated atoms' just snap to the new location of the ship. It would also mean while in the warp, the ship is comprised of 'borrowed' warp matter forced to act like the material universe via the Geller field. Now that's just crazy talk!
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Post by Dazo on Aug 11, 2004 2:40:18 GMT -5
Perhaps this is a candidate for a multi dimensional approach to the warp. If you did drop out before going in rather than being erased you are trasferred to a reality in which you don't exist so maintaining the balance and making sure there'e not two of you in one universe at the same time
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 2:48:28 GMT -5
Perhaps this is a candidate for a multi dimensional approach to the warp. If you did drop out before going in rather than being erased you are trasferred to a reality in which you don't exist so maintaining the balance and making sure there'e not two of you in one universe at the same time It's not multi dimensional, look at more as atom displacement. Rather than travelling, you are being transformed.
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Post by zholud on Aug 11, 2004 4:50:47 GMT -5
In the material universe time is constant, though sci-fi/ science etc has time as a curve yakkerty-yak. From what I know the time is not constant, the time-space is. Because we can measure time only from space and space only from time. The idea of pool is quite plausible hypothesis. In order to avoid jumping back in time, the Geller field is cut and the Starship drops back into the Material Universe, though nowhere near it original destination. I disagree with this. You point on Execution hour I guess, but think why Mortarion hasn’t turned off the field but suffered until succumbed to Nurgle. Plus how space hulks w/o Geller go in/out realspace? On past – future travels. There is mention that sometimes ships came before they gone, in RT maybe, I cannot recall the source. On other way about time travel get Heinlein we all zombies short story for great read on subject. I may even drop it to you if needed.
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Post by Philip on Aug 11, 2004 11:16:57 GMT -5
From what I know the time is not constant, the time-space is. Because we can measure time only from space and space only from time. The idea of pool is quite plausible hypothesis. Depends on the model. I disagree with this. You point on Execution hour I guess, but think why Mortarion hasn’t turned off the field but suffered until succumbed to Nurgle. Plus how space hulks w/o Geller go in/out realspace? On past – future travels. There is mention that sometimes ships came before they gone, in RT maybe, I cannot recall the source. On other way about time travel get Heinlein we all zombies short story for great read on subject. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Fluff inconsistency or rather 'fluff evolution'. - Using this new 'differential time theory', every time someone messes up in the warp something changes to the 40K time line and events.
- What this really means is that the fluff can be changed as much a needed to make it better, and all past fluff is only seen by us on the 'out side' as we are not part of the 40K universe. We are in a 'god' like position observing the changes to the 40K universe.
- Every time there is a fundamental change to the fluff, its down to a navigator messing up a warp jump Blame Chaos
- This means Chaos if changing the 40K universe over time. That is why it is so different to Rogue Trader!
(In case no one guess I'm joking!)
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Post by Destecado on Aug 13, 2004 6:02:57 GMT -5
=Fluff Rewrite==Time Travel=I do not like the concept of time travel, it just seems 'wrong'. However the warp is an unusual place and through the interaction between the material universe and the warp, time travel could be possible, yet in reality, a person will not have tampered with time itself. =Differential Time Theory=In the material universe time is constant, though sci-fi/ science etc has time as a curve yakkerty-yak. In the warp time flows at different rates. It is possible for some parts of the warp to have time move so slowly it has almost stopped, where as in others parts it is greatly accelerated. However time in the warp doesn't reverse or completely stop (complete stop is the god of law, form ye old myth of WFB). Likewise reversing time is against chaos: Chaos is really change, and therefore reversing time would be undoing changes. I do not believe what we define as time exists in the warp. Scientists normally term time as the Fourth Dimension (due to Einstein’s theories). The first three dimensions are the physical dimensions which we can perceive; length, width and height. Each dimension can therefore be thought of a strand or a defining factor of our reality. NOTE: It may be erroneous to call time the fourth dimension. There may exist other physical dimensions that we are just unable to perceive. If you are having difficulty conceptualizing how this could be possible, I recommend giving Flatland by Edwin Abbott a read. The story discusses the interaction of a two dimensional being with one that exists in three dimensions.It is erroneous to equate time with chaos. Time is more a dimensional value of “duration”. Chaos has more to do with the effects of entropy on a system. Time merely provides a determination of how long it takes for that system to break down. Time is also not a constant. It does not flow at the same "speed" everywhere. Its rate of progression is affected by how quickly an observer happens to be moving. Time also begins to break down around massive gravitation wells, such as would be found around a black hole. Of course anything that falls into the black holes event horizon would eventually be drawn towards the singularity at its center. The singularity is a point, where space and time cease to exist, and matter is crushed to infinite density. This is the typical black hole, but if the black hole is rotating, the singularity forms as a ring rather than a point (found by New Zealand mathematician Roy Kerr). It is therefore possible to dive through this ring and emerge at another place or theoretically another time. This is how I see the standard warp engine working. The engines create a strong enough gravitational field to produce a singularity and use it to jump out of our reality and into the warp. The reverse is done in order to re-enter our reality at another point. It is theoretically possible to use a wormhole to move temporally rather than physically. In the fluff on the webway, it is written that there are place in which time actually flows backwards or almost at a stand still. It may be that the webway is a giant network of interconnected wormholes (this is the theory that I ascribe to at least). If that is the case, this might explain these webway corridors where time flows backwards. Now the question may arise if time flows differently in the webway, why not in the warp. The webway is still connected to our reality unlike the warp. It may be that the webway runs through one of the higher physical dimensions that I alluded to earlier. The warp on the other hand is separate and distinct from our reality and is therefore not subject to the laws of our reality. The geller field that ships use while traversing the warp can be thought of as an integrity field, which enforces the laws of our reality throughout the ship. This is why time still passes while the ship is in the warp. The time dilation effect that some ships encounter while traversing the warp might arise from several variables. 1. Time Distortion Cause by Drive System Generating the singularity that enables a ship to “jump” into the warp causes a large gravitational well. Inside of the field time will begin to pass at a different rate than it does for outside observers (similar to how objects appear to slow down when entering the event horizon of a black hole. This may also help to explain some of the stories of how ships appear before they have left. Much of the information we gather is based off of the visual light spectrum or energy emissions that would be effected by the distance or a strong gravitational field. The light from distant stars as seen through telescopes are said to be from the past, because the light and radiation we perceive now, actually was emitted by the star centuries ago (depending on distance). The light or radiation emissions that allow us to perceive objects in the event horizon of a black hole may have been emitted some time previously (depending on the strength of the gravity well). A ship transitioning or jumping through the singularity to the warp may have already left while the after image of it remains while the gravity well dissipates. If the jump is of short enough duration, it may appear that the ship is arriving before it left its destination, but the image of the ship at the departure point is actually just a temporal optical illusion. 2. Effects of Reality on Warp In its natural state, time does not exist in the warp. The way I view the warp is as the interaction point between reality (realties) and the void. The basic form in which matter exists is as pure energy? All matter if broken down releases energy as the bonds that hold it together are broken. What we call reality is therefore energy locked into specific shapes and forms. In its natural state energy is formless. As the warp can exert influences on “real space” so to can “real space” effect the warp. A good way to think of our reality is as a glass of ice water. Water molecules in the surrounding air will begin to condense on the cold surface of the glass eventually forming visual condensation. Similarly energy from the surrounding warp is attracted to “real space” and may begin to take on some of its characteristics. The interaction is not a uniform process. It may be that the interaction of the warp and our reality is what causes the warp currents. If the energy of the warp is able to pick up patterns of real space, then it is possible that time might also come to exist in the warp. It may also be in those areas that show the most violent interaction between our reality and the warp, warp storms. The ship itself would for the most part be protected by the geller field from these changes in reality, but they may become trapped in an area where time flows differently.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 12:35:02 GMT -5
Time is not the forth dimension, length, breadth and width are human 'rough estimates' to get an idea of the overall size of an object. It has stood us in good stead during the industrial development but is a totally 'gross' system. Try measuring a coral, or blobs or any irregular organic structure and the three basic dimensions need a little help as they will only define a 'box'. There is no forth dimension, it is a human idea to carry on naming things in series, and it is natural to assume that as the number 4 comes after 3 there must be a forth dimension (and 5,6,7 etc). There isn't, it just a trick sci-fi writers like to use (one of many) to get you to suspend your disbelief. In truth each dimension is the same turned through 90 degrees, in number terms they would all be a '1'. We gave them names to make it easier on us to describe things, but the names are all relative to the human looking at the object being measured. The problem with relativity is that everything is relative, and the only way to make sense of our universe it to make a stand and say 'that is up, that is this tall, or this wide', and hope other humans understand what you are saying. Length, Breadth and Width are conventions and not more. The warp is change, time is change, they are one and the same yet different... Tzeentch rules (and measures) edit: Also the god of typos.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Aug 18, 2004 13:02:42 GMT -5
It's not just sci-fi. Superstring theory uses at least 10 dimensions, and this is a real theory about the real world, not pure math and not science-fiction. The higher dimensions are curled up inside every point within 3D space.
Superstring theory is real, though whether it is right is another more difficult question.
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Post by Philip on Aug 18, 2004 13:15:21 GMT -5
Super string, gotta love it.
Technically as each '1' dimension is turned through 90 degrees, to give the basics, it is also true that they can be turned through less than 90 degrees. It is probably more accurate to measure things in vectors with infinite degree divisions. This means there are infinite dimensions (which leads to even more sci-fi gobbledy gook) as you can always further divided a degree. However to humans it starts to get a little unwieldy and its still all relative.
As a personal choice I vote that the forth dimension as a curve.
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