|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 9:40:42 GMT -5
Post by malika on Sept 14, 2004 9:40:42 GMT -5
The Machine Spirit..would it be intelligence or instinct?
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 9:44:25 GMT -5
Post by CELS on Sept 14, 2004 9:44:25 GMT -5
Both.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 9:50:46 GMT -5
Post by malika on Sept 14, 2004 9:50:46 GMT -5
hmm short post huh But ok...I thought AI was banned...how would a Machine Spirit be intelligent? Or was it a life form once or something? The instinct part I can get, there was a story of a Crimson Fists' Land Raider which went crazy and killed a whole bunch of Orks during the war on their homeworld
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 10:00:00 GMT -5
Post by CELS on Sept 14, 2004 10:00:00 GMT -5
hmm short post huh Pretty much A Machine Spirit has a soul, I think. Which is why they are trusted. And they're also used very carefully.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 10:04:27 GMT -5
Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 10:04:27 GMT -5
The machine spirit would be the ‘servitor organic intelligence’. As it was once human it would still have a soul, and instincts if needed (left intact) and yes. it could be corrupted by chaos as it is ‘living’.
Just because it is organic, doesn’t mean it is not a ‘machine’. The Adeptus Mechanicus deals in biological (Space Marine geneseed) and metal machines.
40K fluff alludes to this, but doesn’t say it out loud.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 16:53:47 GMT -5
Post by Destecado on Sept 14, 2004 16:53:47 GMT -5
Personally I see no reason why Imperial robots should not still be a viable concept. Just because they were in first edition fluff, does not mean they should be disgarded.
I view the changes in the fluff to be similar to the revisionist history that occured during the Stalinist purges of the Soviet Union. Of course such revisionist history is not only present in nations under totalitarian rule. Similar things occur in text books in the United States. The changes are usually more subtle though....ok, this is heading slightly off topic, so let me get back on track.
I will use excerpts from the linked article about the Legio Cybernetica to illustrate why robots could still possibly be in existance within the 40k universe.
Each maniple is virtually a self-contained unit. The (typically) four units are managed on the battlefield by a single tech-adept. He has little more to do than give the Robot's their final programs and then monitor their progress. He is, however, also charged with making sure that a damaged Robot (which could be dangerous to its own side) is destroyed as quickly as possible. Each Robot carries a self-destruct system which can be detonated by remote control should its programming fail in some way.
The original rules for robots were ungainly. They required writing down a series of proscribed movements that the robot would follow.
The above excerpt makes them sound more like the Thralls employed by Space Wolf Iron Priests. Thralls are of course servitors. The advantage over normal servitors were that they were able to take close combat implants and serve as a body guard for the Iron Priest.
It was a small step from there to the gun servitors and other specialized combat servitors used by other organizations of the Imperium (Demonhunters, Witch Hunters).
Many Robot components are identical (or nearly so) to Dreadnought parts. This compatibility simplifies many supply and repair problems. Legio cohorts have, for example, been cannibalised out of existence to provide spares for Dreadnought suits! In return Legio Cybernetica adepts have not been averse to dismantling Dreadnought suits - sometimes even killing the pilot in the process - when making battlefield repairs.
It may be that many robots go unrecognized, because they are taken to be dreadnaughts. It could also be that many have fallen victim to a shortage of repair parts and have been scrapped to provide parts for venerable dreadnaughts.
Before a battle the firmware routines are overlaid and replaced by the Robot's combat wetware (ie the software of a protein computer). This new cortex program, which can be changed for every battle, defines, for example, how and when the Robot is to fire its weapons or detonate its self-destruct charges.
Each piece of wetware is held in a small slice of bioplastic, about the same size as a credit card. Many warriors take these from 'dead' robots, believing that them to hold the soul and courage of the robot. When kept in a medicine pouch some of the robot's bravery passes into the warrior; even some Marine Chapters have been known to follow this tradition.
Without its cortex a Robot is as helpless as a bolter without a Marine. It can do nothing other than take whatever punishment is meted out to it. With its cortex fully programmed, however, a Robot can prove itself the equal of many other creatures on the battlefield.
It may be that there is not a shortage of body parts for the robots, but what may be in short supply are the cortexes that serve as their control unit. It may be interesting to write up fiction that discusses the break down or shortage of cortexes and perhaps the experimentation of an adeptus mechanicus adept to coble one together from a machine spirit and maybe the brain of a servitor.
The Sargassos Subsector also once supported a culture (the Mezzan) that was made up of both humans and individuals that would be analguous to the iron men of the War of Strife. It may be that the intrepid adept might undertake a mission to try and locate remnants of these iron men or at least their "brains" in order to bring the robotic cohort back to "life"
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 17:07:22 GMT -5
Post by Philip on Sept 14, 2004 17:07:22 GMT -5
I remember this stuff, but I have to say that even then Robots where based on ‘organic intelligence’. 40K has always steered away from machine ‘AI’.
The Robot description GW came up with could easily be describing a servitor.
It is a neat version of a ‘servitor organic intelligence’ being credit card size and freely interchangeable, but it is, in essence still a servitor.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 14, 2004 17:38:42 GMT -5
Post by Destecado on Sept 14, 2004 17:38:42 GMT -5
I remember this stuff, but I have to say that even then Robots where based on ‘organic intelligence’. 40K has always steered away from machine ‘AI’. The Robot description GW came up with could easily be describing a servitor. It is a neat version of a ‘servitor organic intelligence’ being credit card size and freely interchangeable, but it is, in essence still a servitor. Actually it is not the same thing. The Imperium may have turned to Servitors to replace robots lost to battle or cannibalized for parts. This could have happened due to a shortage in the necessary cortexes to make the robots function or beacuse organic parts were it was easier to grow or less expensive than fabricating entirely mechanical frames. Robots would have been necessary at the beginning of the Imperium, when the man power under the control of the Emperor was not as great as it is in the current age. As the great crusade dragged on and more worlds came under the sway of the Imperium of Man, the supply lines to the forge worlds producing the robots would have been severly stretched. Servitors previously used for manual labor and other tasks might have been pressed into service to fill out the ranks of the Legion Cybernetica until spare parts or units arrived. It may be that the servitors did not strat taking over these roles until after the Horus Heresy. In the write up, it indicates that many robots were destroyed on both sides of the conflict. this would have left their numbers after the Heresy greatly reduced.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 20, 2004 8:32:02 GMT -5
Post by Philip on Sept 20, 2004 8:32:02 GMT -5
On machine spirits, Gav posted this on BL’s forums. Hope that clears it up a bit.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 20, 2004 9:51:38 GMT -5
Post by CELS on Sept 20, 2004 9:51:38 GMT -5
That, of course, is very stupid. Especially when organic parts can be grown and be used quite mechanically. So in my humble opinion, that is absolutely very stupid.
I guess Gav is just trying to show that the members of the Adeptus Mechanicus are so blind that they think anything organic has a spirit.
As suggested in the same thread, the whole idea about machine spirits seems to be that they can resist corruption by Chaos, unlike the corrupted Iron Men featured in the Gaunt's Ghosts series.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 21, 2004 9:02:24 GMT -5
Post by Philip on Sept 21, 2004 9:02:24 GMT -5
I think the Adeptus Mechanicus view anything that was once human and used as an intelligent part of machinery as having a soul (as in a human soul). They may expand this idea to include all organic machinery (even if it doesn’t have a soul any longer, like a servo skull) as a mark of respect to those who gave their lives.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 22, 2004 10:47:55 GMT -5
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 22, 2004 10:47:55 GMT -5
Right, instead of making a huge response I thought I would include some 'fragmentary' responses. Make of them what you will... Robots in the Imperium... The 'fluff' has steadily moved away from them towards more 'servitor'-type constructs. I'm sure that robots are still present, though, although more likely in the 'secret armouries' of the adeptus mechanicus. nRobots... These will not be showing up in the Anargo sector or the history of the Anargo sector. Or, indeed, the future. Tech-level of robots... Anything from the 'primitive' ones used in manufacturing (GTL late 6 onwards) to 'cutting edge' ones of the adeptus mechanicus which would be GTL10-11. New vs. Old 'Fluff'... Where possible we try and integrate where possible. The question is how to do this without really putting the back up of those people who feel that only the newest is the most appropriate. I'm not entirely sure that is possible, but I try and cater to such stringent and limited stances where possible. AI and the Imperium... First off, I'd like to advocate the following terminology: [/li][li]AI (Artificial Intelligence) = PI (Pseudo or Programmed Intelilence). This takes the form of expert systems, etc. [/li][li]MI (Machine Intelligence). This is a complete, functional and separate intelligence arising out of a machine. It is not programmed. I would say that the Imperium has AI/PI, but not MI... The question of the nature of such intelligence is really only a parallel discussion... I point out that Traveller has long since used organic materials in their computers. This would technically be 'servitor'... Imperium doesn't have robots... Flagrant revisionism, but one that can be integrated as long as robots are not showing up in peoples' "Anargo armies". Oh, and the Impeirum does have 'bioroids': the Astartes and, yes, servitors... Kinda. Machine Spirit as 'soul'... I would strongly suggest that a 'machine spirit' can refer to a wide range of phenomenon. Firstly you have the ascriptoin of a 'soul' through sheer animistic beliefs of the adeptus mechanicus. Secondly you've got the misinterpretation of a 'soul' through complex AI/PI programs. Thirdly you've got the 'possession' of a machine and the presence of a distinct soul. Souls and servitors... All a soul is is 'psychic energy'.
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 22, 2004 13:34:09 GMT -5
Post by Egarb on Sept 22, 2004 13:34:09 GMT -5
I just lost my completed post for the SECOND time due to this shoddy key board. Anyway I'm back and Ivan didn't kill me In response to CELS: The robts in the novel weren't corrupted atually. The Machine that made them was, so the robot came out with 'bad/evil' programming they were never 'good'. Thats like saying some of the post heresy chaos equiptment is 'corrupted' when it was in fact simply made 'evil' to begin with. A robot has no warp presence so it is nearly incorruptable. now on to my thoughts on robots in the current fluff of warhammer 40k After the Legio Cybernetica redeemed itself, it had to figure out a way to prevnt their robots from rebelling, in otherwards to make its ideas in line with the Imperiums morals. To do this when an inquisiter in the Ordo Malleus (sp?) or other high ranking official (robots are a closely gaurded secret ever since the War Against the Iron Men, accouinting for the absence of the Legio in the charts ) they get thier personality imprinted on the robot muh like the knights on the agri-exodite worlds www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD126_knights.shtmlThe imprinted personality makes all final decisions for the robot but the AI makes logical suggstions since the personality is moral but stupid, so the AI is essentially there to help it along Robots would not be widespread, even in the high ranks of the Imperiup for the simple reason that in all but a few cases servitors function almost as well as robots in most situations. here are a few pros/cons of robots and servitors, and a few situations where robots would be better robots: pro: -no maintinance/self sustaining scenario: A long mission with little or no supplies. The robot would survive without food unlike a servitor (they don't require much buut over months it adds up. If i had to choose between my servitor or me eating well....) -recon scenario: You need to quickly asess the defences of an enemy or sumsuch. You send out a lightning fast robot deigned to be hard to spot. The robot comes back and you hook him up to your computer and see EXACTLY what it saw -interchangeability scenario: You're going on a long campaign with varying cercumstances. Need your robot to snipe? no problem replace his arm. Need him to make a path through a death world? Replace his arm with a flamer. etc. -melee -scenario: well not really a scenario, but metal (plasteel whatever) doesn't break easy con: -HARD TO GET Servtors: pro: -Easy to get con: -takes food and care -need to have it upgraded bionically -not so smart (the robot has an AI to help its personality, like having brain and morals seperate) and for now thats about it, my fingers hurt from typing that thrice
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 27, 2004 18:03:22 GMT -5
Post by Egarb on Sept 27, 2004 18:03:22 GMT -5
Did i scare you all off? I didn't think it was that far of a stretch ~sigh~ I'll just accept the robots fate and work on somthing else for ASP
|
|
|
Robots
Sept 27, 2004 18:38:32 GMT -5
Post by Kage2020 on Sept 27, 2004 18:38:32 GMT -5
I just lost my completed post for the SECOND time due to this shoddy key board. Keyboards I can do nothing about. Personally I tend to use "Ctrl-A" and "Ctrl-C" before posting a long thread. Anyway I'm back and Ivan didn't kill me Do not panic me about weather systems... In a month (or so) I'm going to be over in the States. As a pathetic little Brit boy that is not something that I need to hear! To do this when an inquisiter in the Ordo Malleus (sp?) or other high ranking official (robots are a closely gaurded secret ever since the War Against the Iron Men, accouinting for the absence of the Legio in the charts ) they get thier personality imprinted on the robot muh like the knights on the agri-exodite worlds... I'm going to have to say that this would be a stretch in terms of the canonical 'fluff'. The technology involved borders on MIU and, as such, comes into the realms of the adeptus mechanicus. The imprinted personality makes all final decisions for the robot but the AI makes logical suggstions since the personality is moral but stupid, so the AI is essentially there to help it along That actually has some rather interesting ramifications to Titans and other 'high-tech' gadgets that the Imperium utilises... However, "imprinting" is not something that the Imperium tends to do (for the most part). Surely? pro: -no maintinance/self sustaining Why would they have no maintenance? The robot comes back and you hook him up to your computer and see EXACTLY what it saw Actually a rather fascinating possibility with regards to the 'subjective' nature of servitor sensors... But that's OffT... and for now thats about it, my fingers hurt from typing that thrice My apologies for that... there is, unfortunately, nothing that I can do about. See above for advice!
|
|