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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 9:08:37 GMT -5
I still am not too fond of all the different types of "forms" (creatures) you are attempting to combine together. So of these forms you have listed are naturall predators to each other. The octupus might not be the best choice for the race you are creating, but you may want to consider other types of Cephalopods. These would include squids, cuttlefish and the nautilus. Although they are invertabrate like the Octopus, these other varieties do have an internal or external shell that gives them support. If you wish to extrapolate their evolutionary process, perhaps this shell like structure actually developes into a full exo-skeleton over time. You may want to have their home world be covered in deep salty marshes and bogs. Like Kage has said, the tidal forces from a sun you are describing would put their planet too close into the stars. This would put it outside most habitable zones. This is not to say that tidal forces could not occure from other bodies acting upon the planet. I do not see any mention of moons around the planet. Our own moon has a great influence on the tides on earth. Perhaps one or several moons effecting the planet's tides. I still feel the effect of tides should be one of drying out the swamps in which they live. Such an effect will lead to competion in the species to survive in those few watering holes and moist places that remain while the red giant is high in the sky. It also opens up the possibility for the developement of the exoskeleton or calcium shell like structure and if not lungs, perhaps a large internal bladder to hold water or liguid that is oxygen rich, allowing them to operate for short periods outside of water. Those that had developed the exoskeleton would be able to move around more readily than those that lacked the shell. The development of the "lung" structure would be another evolutionary adaptation that would allow those equiped with it to survive where those without would die off. It all comes down to survival of the fittest. I don't see these creatures being what would be termed an amphibian. They would instead be more like a seal or whale, but in reverse. Whales can spend hours submerged before having to come up for air due to their lung capacity and ability to reduce the amount of oxygen neceesary to maintain themselves. This form of Atlantan rather than having gills, breathes through its skin. The lung like structure is like a fatty tissue that stores disolved oxygen. It is almost like having an internal oxygen take which allows them to breathe as they move accross the surface. For more information on Cephalopods, check out the following link. is.dal.ca/~ceph/TCP/index.html |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 9:22:09 GMT -5
After doing some additional reading, it appears that many sorces agree that many Cephalopods (cuttlefish, squids and octopi atleast) show high levels of intelligence. They also seem to communicate through changes of color on their skin. This would make scense, as I do not see them really developing the organs necessary for speach. their language may be based on changing colors combined with body language 9movement of tentacles). the link below is to a light hearted story that may show the intelligence of the Cephalopods....or it may just be a bit of anthropomorphism on the part of the author. www.heptune.com/cutfish.html |
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 19, 2004 10:01:15 GMT -5
Cooool...Communication by colour? I like that, makes them unique...
Be a bit problematic to describe them in fluff, though.
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Post by CELS on Apr 19, 2004 10:43:48 GMT -5
Humans also comminicate by colour, if you think about it. Our faces can turn red ;D
Being amphibians though (unless you dropped that idea since the last time I checked this thread) would allow them to have vocal cords. Of course, they don't really need those, they could also communicate by making clicking sounds, which would be a lot better for communicating under water. Like a highly developed form of morse code.
Just communicating with tentacles and colours means that the receiver has to be fairly close and visible.
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Post by Sojourner on Apr 19, 2004 11:07:22 GMT -5
That's also a possibility. Colour could communicate mood and such, while your 'sonar' is the actual information.
IMO this may well follow on to Atlantans being good with diplomacy - when you communicate in a 'digital' type system it's difficult to convey anger, fear, intimidation as a human voice can. Hence, you always communicate objectively.
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 11:08:00 GMT -5
Humans also comminicate by colour, if you think about it. Our faces can turn red ;D Being amphibians though (unless you dropped that idea since the last time I checked this thread) would allow them to have vocal cords. Of course, they don't really need those, they could also communicate by making clicking sounds, which would be a lot better for communicating under water. Like a highly developed form of morse code. Just communicating with tentacles and colours means that the receiver has to be fairly close and visible. I'm not sure as to the status of the whole amphibian idea. I'm just offering alternative avenues if the anphibina idea does not work out. Communicating through colors also does not have to be just in line of sight. Maybe their communicators work on the principle of occilating colors than actual words formed through a speaker and microphone. It could either be tied directly into their biochemistry to simulate exactly the color changes of the sender or perhaps they have a communicator with specific color buttons. Messages become a morse code like mixture of color buttons and symbols. The symbols could almost be like pictograms, word pictures that are whirling shapes which simulate the positions of the cephalopods tenticles when conveying specific ideas or emotions. They would look like odd shaped pin-wheel structures to anyone not familiar with their writing. These simple "letter" when combined with the colors can convey very complex ideas. How does that sound? |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 19, 2004 16:16:50 GMT -5
Um. Destacado, I think there's a misunderstanding, a major one. The "Octopus/Pirahna/etc. names are not species, they're names. See here: www.pbase.com/image/25669943/originalThey're all of the same basic body shape, with minor variations. Bulkier, shorter, taller, etc. (with Octopi being the exception). The names were intended from the enemy's point of view. You seem to be taking them literally. |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 16:21:49 GMT -5
If it doesn't fit in with your concept, then you may discount it, but I hope you took into account the thought of adding other celestial bodies to their home system. the tides do not have to be effected by the suns. Moons can also effect the tides.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 19, 2004 17:38:05 GMT -5
The suns were just a concept. Multiple large moons are much better, possibly with satellites of their own. Can moons have moons?  |
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Post by Destecado on Apr 19, 2004 17:52:14 GMT -5
Most will tend to orbit around the planet rather than each other, due to the mass and gravitational forces. You could perhaps have an asteroid debris field around the planet that occured from several of its moons coliding in their rotational paths.
The number of moons that a planet could attract and hold is partly due to their proximity the size of the bodies and of the planet itself and any outside forces that might react upon the two.
It is specualted that our own moon was created when the earth first began to form out of the suns accretian disk. An asteroid or other body slammed into the still forming earth causing a portion to be ejected into orbit. the debris field eventually coalessed into the moon.
If you look at the craters on the moon, you will see that there were periods when our neck of the solar system was swarming with asteroids and other stellar debris. the craters on earth are not as visible, due to erosion and other geological activity, but we took a pasting as well.
The point is that if you wish to have many small moons or an asteroid field, you have to take into account that some of it may fall as meteors on your planet. If the mass of the object is big enough, you would be looking at an extinction level event which might wipe out your nacent race before it has a chance to develope. I wouldn't go beyound more than two moons.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 19, 2004 18:10:30 GMT -5
Maybe one very large moon. What options would I have for generating the gravity fields I'd need for hemisphere-wide tidal shifts? You do seem to know oodles about the real world. ;D
P.S. Also, something I just remembered. A LONG while back, way before the A.S.P., I did have a concept for two moons. One had an Atlantean name meaning "Waste of Land", a huge but barren and airless rock. The other was "Waste of Time" a small but fertile moon with a habitable atmosphere. The 2nd doesn't really matter at the moment, but would having a moon as close to the maximum size give me the gravity I need? (maximum being the biggest it can get without being the planet and not the moon)
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Post by Destecado on Apr 20, 2004 11:58:13 GMT -5
Our own moon exerts enough tidal forces upon the earth to cause the tides in our oceans. Alot of what you need will be dependant upon the size of the planet itself. This will help to determin the distance that the moon must be from the primary as well as how massive the moon should be. Just remember if you make it too massive, the two bodies might begin to fall towards eachother or create tidal stress that cause more than just waves. Also rememebr that the planet and its moon are not a closed system. the other planets in orbit around the sun as well as the sun itself exert tidal forces upon each other. It is beleived that the Jovian (Jupiter) moon of Io is highly volcanic due to the tidal stress placed upon it by both Jupiter and another Jovian moon, Europa. Jupiter also exerts forces upon Mars. The folowing link might give you some usefull information for desigining your planetary system. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_locking |
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 24, 2004 17:16:06 GMT -5
And remember that you only need to think about it relatively, i.e. don't get too bogged down in the numbers. If you have a planet the same size as Terra with a bigger (more massive) moon, then it would be reasonable to assume that the tidal forces would be that much greater... if it's the same size and closer, then the same thing... And so on. The numbers can then be worked out by people who are more in the 'know'... Kage |
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Post by TheGlyphstone on May 1, 2004 6:04:21 GMT -5
Thank you, everyone. The Atlanteans are now going into a total refit, incorporating the ideas/suggestions/demands/etc. listed in this thread. It'll take me a while to get around to it, but it'll be done eventually.
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