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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 15, 2004 16:02:10 GMT -5
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 15, 2004 17:13:47 GMT -5
I would honestly love any sort of help you or anyone can give me re. solving the "merman" problem without disrupting the imagery too much. What stopped them evolving towards a more aquatic form after 60,000,000 years of existence? If you say that they are about as old as Humanity, how could the Old Ones have taken a hand in their development? Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 15, 2004 18:05:24 GMT -5
I'd like to help, bu I think that the ideas I would bring forward would not correspond to the image of the Atlantans that you have formed in your head. I picture them more like sentient jelly fish than having a humanoid form. this does not mean that they could not mimic a humanoid form. I see them as semi polimorfic, since most of their body is liquid suspended in memebranes. As I indicated, it would be nteresting if some of the race has been encountered on other worlds, but ulike the ones you are describing never advanced. I see them as the source for the Imperiums polimorphine drug, or at least perhaps the original creature that they based their research on. If you wish, I can go into greater detail. T
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 15, 2004 18:08:54 GMT -5
Kage2020: All right, let's just make them as old as the Old Ones. Let's say the OO fixed certain characteristics of their DNA in place, i.e. the legs/arms, so that they would not lose the ability to fight effectively abovewater.
Destacado: Sorry. Your ideas are intriguing, and possibly the basis for another race (where does polymorphine come from?), but they're not really what I envision for them.
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Post by CELS on Apr 16, 2004 4:10:38 GMT -5
Like Destecado, I also have problems with the Caste-system. The fact that their homeworld is divided into five different regions, each with its own unique inhabitants that are each given seperate tasks, and that these regions are seperated by thin mountain borders.... well, it just sounds too fantasy, too neat and unrealistic.
I think you could keep the subspecies without having such fantastic geology. Earth has some pretty different regions, despite there being no tall mountains to seperate them. The Rockies in the US, the rainforest in Brazil, the deserts of Sahara, the tundra of Sibir, etc. Of course, that means that there will be Atlanteans that don't fall into either category, and are somewhat plain compared to the others, but I could live with that. It's more realistic, and it gives us a civilian class.
As for the Strikers having exceptional eyesight thanks to their cloudy ocean... that doesn't make sense. If you go to enviroments with poor visibility on earth, such as caverns, you do not find creatures with great eyesight. You find blind creatures. If you go to places with lots of visibility, like a tall mountain, you'll find eagles. Eagles have exceptional eyesight.
I don't think Kage wants another contemporary of the Old Ones, Glyphstone, since he used that against the Aoideans. So that's basically out. Besides, even if they're as old as the Old Ones, living 60 billion years outside their natural enviroment (land, on account of their arms and legs) would change them. The reason old races such as the Eldar have not changed significantly is that they've lived in their natural enviroment all along.
The only way I see this race keeping its characteristics for so long is by A) Keeping out of the water most of the time, such as when inside, or B) Genetic engineering.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 16, 2004 5:41:12 GMT -5
CELS: You're right on the homeworld geography, I'll have to rework that. Your suggestion does help a lot, and it even gives me a civilian group, which I was open on.
Strikers: Whoops. I kind of forgot my real-world physiology. Then again, the environment is going to need reworking anyways.
Contemporaries: That's what I thought, and that's where I got the impression Kage didn't want another WiH race. Perhaps the Old Ones crafted them shortly before they lost the final battle against the C'tan, which they knew they would, and hid them away to begin emerging once the C'tan had bloodied each other up enough. This took a while, so the while the Atlanteans are technically as old as the OO, they didn't start developing until 20-30 million years ago. Better?
BUT SOMETHING ELSE
Late-night brainstorming came up with something. The most major problem with them so far has been the "merman" problem, being bipedal creatures in an underwater environment. What if I changed them to truly amphibious, more like frog-men than mer-men. Give them a set of lung-like organs, so they can breathe for short times above water, but have their skin dry out very rapidly so they prefer to remain under the surface, except when fighting abovewater enemies (in which case they'd use the suits).
Will this (with some tweaking) solve it, or at least one side?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 16, 2004 6:55:21 GMT -5
Kage2020: All right, let's just make them as old as the Old Ones. Let's say the OO fixed certain characteristics of their DNA in place, i.e. the legs/arms, so that they would not lose the ability to fight effectively abovewater. Yet another race that is as old as the Old Ones? Regardless of this I'm extremely uncomfortable with the Old Ones able to fix the genetic 'destiny' of any race. I already think that the pariah gene malarky is, well, just that: malarky. The idea that you can play around with 'junk genes' and tie in a trigger is fair enough, but fixing genetic position really doesn't make sense to me... Perhaps it would be best to come up with a defined reason why they kept their form or, alternatively, think about variations upon Destecado's suggestion. Maybe even a totally parasitic race (in terms of technology)... Kage
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Post by CELS on Apr 16, 2004 7:07:02 GMT -5
The problem with the Atlanteans seems to be that Glyphstone and Kage/Destacado are set on each their extremes. Am I the only one capable of compromising here? Glyphstone has already said that while he likes Destacado's ideas, they're not right for this race. I also think that everyone's opinion on the mer-men discussion is perfectly clear, so let's keep in mind what everyone has said. If no agreement can be made, perhaps we should conclude that the Atlanteans are not right for the project? (I'm prepared to come this conclusion on the Aoideans too, by the way) Oh, and Kage, what were your thoughts on the Atlanteans being amphibians?
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 16, 2004 7:35:45 GMT -5
The amphibian or aquatic race isn't a problem.. It's just that they've supposedly spent millions of years "on hold" as a physiologically static race. I'm not taking an extreme stance, I just need some more explanation! Kage
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Post by Destecado on Apr 16, 2004 9:24:08 GMT -5
An interesting thought just occured to me. If we are talking anphibians, there may have been long time when they are torpid. Most amphibions are cold blooded animals and can not take great variations in temerature. During winter or extremely dry weather they go into a hibernation state. see the following link for further details. www.newton.dep.anl.gov/natbltn/400-499/nb485.htmDepending on the weather of your planet, there may be intervals where the Atlantans lay in a torpid sleep while the winter or hot summer passes by. This would slow their developement as a culture, but also help to explain why it took them so long to develope. there are some turtles that can hibernate for 100 days or more. what if we extend the time for these larger creatures. Maybe their home planet is from a bianary or trinary system. On sun in the sky provides warmth and bathes the planet in light, the second is the night star, it is smaller and the most distant of the three. When the third, a red giant rises its heat causes draughts and dries up the watering holes that are the Atlants natural habitat, leading to a slow down in life as they go to ground. Perhaps the radiation caused by the suns rather than the old ones is what caused their evolution. Natural evolution can take millions of years. One of the only problems that I see with going the Amphibian route, is that the ideas of seas might not fit. I don't beleive that there are any salt water amphibians. Many frog species breath through their skin, the salt would disrupt the flow of oxygen...of course these are only terrestrial amphibians, you could change them any way you wish.
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 16, 2004 15:35:02 GMT -5
DESTACADO: Now THIS idea I like. Hibernation state seems a nice way of working out their non-changing physiology. Ironically, I have already been working on a hibernation-concept, actually more a coma-state, they they self-induce to escape pain/starvation/something else. How's this for an idea. The hibernation idea could tie into massive tidal shifts, something I thought up about 5 minutes ago. The system could be a trinary like you said, but the primary star is medium with plenty of warmth. The secondary and trinary stars are large but very cool, and farther away, so their heat does not matter as much. But when the two larger stars line up with each other, or one and the primary, or all three, it creates tremendous tides that leave massive swathes of the sea high and dry. I'm picturing something similar to the neap tide/spring tide of the Moon/sun, on a much larger scale. Is this physically possible? On their connection to the old ones: I'm smelling danger to my fishy friends here, so it looks like I'll have to be open to changes. How about instead of the Old Ones crafting them directly, they evolved close to their present state naturally. Near the very end of the WiH, the Old Ones visited briefly on the planet where the very primitive species that would become the Atlanteans was living. The race was awed, and worshipped them as gods. The simple creatures admired their new deities' vision of a balanced, peaceful galaxy and thought to help strive towards that vision. With the OO's extermination by the C'tan, the proto-Atlanteans were left alone to slowly evolve, keeping the memory of the "Star-Fathers" alive. With their technology developing, they made it their mission to manipulate the galaxy back into a balanced state in hopes that their gods would return. This is hopeless, obviously, but does give reason to their crusade. They believe in the vision of a "balanced" galaxy given them by the Old Ones in their (the Atlanteans) infancy, and struggle to make it a reality. Does that mollify some concerns, or did I just go to the opposite extreme?
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 18, 2004 13:38:59 GMT -5
Anybody? I'd like some input on this concept, primarily as to whether it moves towards mollifying the concerns of the Powers That Be, so I can keep working. Also, this triple-star idea would both give a reason for hibernation, and give me something to base their calendar around. P.S. This can also help to neutralize the "watery Tau" analogy by eliminating the seas, with the accompanying subspecies. Instead, the subspecies can simply be Atlanteans with particular interest/talent in a specific style of battle, who then train/develop to suit their role. The exception would be the Octopi, who I'm still not sure what to do with. P.P.S. Would anyone have any beefs with including giant crabs/other sea creatures as shock troops for an Atlantean force? The codex I've gotten together (currently in the Wargaming forum - does anyone on these boards actually play the game? ) had "Combat Squids", a unit of squid-ish creatures who are implanted with behavior-controllers and set loose on the battlefield. Points brought up in this thread have made me realize that invertebrates like squids could not function above water. Crustaceans like crabs would be much better, and also gives inspiration for primitive Atlantean fighters (crab riders, anyone?)
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Raider
Scribe
The Anti-Christ
Posts: 53
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Post by Raider on Apr 18, 2004 17:29:30 GMT -5
With the Octopi, I have two suggestions for you.
Firstly, genetic enhancement. Namely the 'Octopi' itself is grown in a lab tank and then grafted onto the Host Atlantean.
Secondly, a certain band of radiation sent out by one of the three suns does strange things to a small proportion of Atlanteans.
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Post by Kage2020 on Apr 18, 2004 18:10:39 GMT -5
Hibernation... This seems like it could be a rather interesting idea if done correctly. Quite fascinating. Tidal shifts... AFAIK the distance at which a star is going to have dramatic effects on the tides is such that the world would be ashed before you noticed... Perhaps another concept should be looked into? Old Ones... Perhaps you could just abandon this idea? Why do the Old Ones have to be included in their 'fluff'. If you wish to retain them, however, I would point out that the Old Ones are not dead. They're just not 'involved' at the moment. I am, however, very glad to see that you are altering the concept based upon the concerns of others. Most gratifying to see. Kage
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Post by TheGlyphstone on Apr 18, 2004 18:29:49 GMT -5
hibernation: Thanks, I'm thinking more on this.
Tidal Shifts: Well, I dunno. It was an explanation for why they hibernate periodically. I thought maybe it could be rationalized by saying the two (or perhaps one) larger star is farther away, but very cool, so heat is not a concern, only gravity. The smaller, closer star provides heat like a normal sun. Besides, it's not one star that causes the dramatic tides, but the combines pull of their sun and its partner. But this may not be possible with real-world physics.
Old Ones: I needed a reason for WHY they are spread all over the galaxy, watching and waiting, attacking when necessary, etc. Just a reason for why they do what they do. And I thought it said in the Necron codex that the C'tan exterminated the last of the Old Ones during the WiH.
Oh, and you're welcome. I'm not totally resistant to change, I just didn't want to change them utterly.
THE NEXT DAY: Something else I realized, which is rather demoralizing. The reason they had been totally aquatic was to stop them from being "space Lizardmen". Now that they're amphibious, that's what they're turning into. But then, that's not such a bad thing after all, considering every other 40K race is a Fantasy parallel or has one.
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