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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 1:43:13 GMT -5
Okay, remembering a previous discussion here on the subject (which I thought it would be best to live at the depths) and based upon more recent mentions of 'military academies' I thought it would be useful to bring this up again... It's probably going to end up as a group of statements and assumptions (including canonical and non-canonical references), but often that is the best place to start in discussing something rather than a "What do you think?" post. Thus.. - There is division in the Imperium between 'members' and 'non-members' (citizens and non-citizens) which are broadly analagous to those found in ancient Rome.
- Citizens are, broadly, the members of the adeptus terra (including the Inquisition) and the Imperial nobility (nobilitas imperialis). (Note: The distinction between nobilitas imperialis and nobilitas provincialis (provincial nobility, i.e. that set up on individual worlds), is my own addition but one that I think is consistent with the spirit of the 'fluff' (cf. distinction between 'hive' nobility and that of the Cypra Mundian 'elite'.)
- Citizen education is found with the schola progenium, which is a 'complete' educational organisation. That is to say that while it has many sub-divisions, it is the term given for all education of Imperium citizens from 'pre-school' to 'university/college' level and, indeed, beyond.
- Schola progenia are present on all worlds, but once again are restricted to citizens. These facilities are not always as exacting/developed as one might desire (analogous to 'village schools') and, as such, facilities dedicated to specific aspects of 'education' can exist.
- Individual worlds can maintain their own educational systems which are not necessarily 'lesser' to the schola progenium (cf. "Glavian pilot school"). They are, of course, monitored by the adeptus ministorum and Inquisition for 'heresy', and also the adeptus mechanicus for 'techno-heresy'.
- The division between 'citizen' and 'non-citizen' requires the inclusion of social emulation. That is to say that specific groups (i.e. nobilitas provincialis, wealthy merchants, etc.) would have a vested interest in emulating the 'elite' of the Imperium and find a means by which their children can access the schola progenium...
Right, some broad statements none of which I feel are particularly excessive. One obvious question is this: How can 'non-citizen' access to the schola progenium be best achieved and does this allow access to the adeptus terra itself in terms other than potential military service? Just some thoughts. |
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Post by Minister on Jul 22, 2004 7:59:50 GMT -5
I dissagree with that on one (fairly major) point. The Scholasta Progenium is an institution dedicated exclusivley to the orphaned children of the Adeptus. There are, to be sure, a great many Imperial teaching institutions, but the Scholasta is a special case.
I do, however, agree with a distinction between local and Imperial nobility, but I don't see it as a clear "A or B". There are rather a multitude of gradations.
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Post by zholud on Jul 22, 2004 9:12:47 GMT -5
I dissagree with that on one (fairly major) point. The Scholasta Progenium is an institution dedicated exclusivley to the orphaned children of the Adeptus. There are, to be sure, a great many Imperial teaching institutions, but the Scholasta is a special case. OK, you go on thin ice here. There are mentions on educationin Schola from some guys/gals with parents in novels and stories. Moreover, red-haired stepchild is cool imaginery, but if wars are irregular = casualities are different = number of Schola students varies = there is almost constant disbalance in supply of Inquisitors, Commissars and Sororitae... which I am convinced is a very bad idea. So, for me, and I try to persuade others on it Schola Progenium is equivalent of ministry of education.  |
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 22, 2004 10:31:50 GMT -5
I'm not sure I agree that there would be large fluctuations in cohort sizes at the Schola if you draw pupils from across the galaxy. On a galactic scale, I would think raids are a fairly constant threat.
I would think that larger scale conflicts such as Ork Waaaghs and Tyranid invasions don't produce huge numbers of orphans for the same reason Abaddon's Planetkiller doesn't - the children are enslaved/eaten/vaporized right alongside their parents.
If conflict flags on a galaxy wide basis for a few years, I'm sure in times of relative peace the Ordo Hereticus and the Arbites can arrange for the civilian death rate to remain at wartime levels.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 11:53:03 GMT -5
A fair enough point, Minister. But as zholud says, compared to the 'balance of the 'fluff'' where does that statement exist?
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Post by HighInquisitor on Jul 22, 2004 12:38:17 GMT -5
I was reading the Second Edition Sisters of Battle Codex the other day, and I'm pretty sure that it states that Schola Progenium is only for the orphans of the Adeptus. I remember reading that all those who have been schooled by the Schola Progenium should feel very special. I don't have acces to the codex at the moment, but this happended rather recently, so I'm quite sure.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 22, 2004 12:40:37 GMT -5
Yep, I'm also aware of the 'fluff' which states that. So perhaps then it would be best to create another institution that serves the above function rather than creating an Imperium where many important functions are predicated upon an accident of life?
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Post by zholud on Jul 22, 2004 22:32:57 GMT -5
Here is an extract from the SoB codex you are referred to, with my emphasis on your point, Minister: Schola Progenium
The Schola Progenium is responsible for the care and education of orphans of Imperial servants. From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world, the Schola Progenium cares for them all. Each diocese contains a number of Schola Progenium habitats where the orphans are gathered together. Headed by an Abbot, the Preachers of the habitat educate the young in a variety of studies, including religious education.At the same time I find this highly dubious, considering both my abovementioned arguments on misbalance and another important point. As you can see, from both wargame rules (oh I hate using rules in fluff discussions, but here we go) and fluff Commissars, who are always pupils from Schola are extraordinary persons. How does it happen? Are Imperium servants are unique breed of humans, or nurture can really affect person in much more harsh way than even environment? Commi can withstand Deathworld IG veteran in game terms without much trouble… same with inquisitors. As you may see, even if officially Schola educates only orphans, most likely ones in power may afford to get own children there as well. |
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Post by Minister on Jul 23, 2004 2:03:01 GMT -5
"Commissars, who are always pupils from Schola are extraordinary persons."
Nope. Usually, but not allways. The Commissar is one of the more looked-up-to career choices (for want of a better phrase) from the Scholastae(or whatever), but I recall mention of recruitment from other sources.
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Post by ErnestBorgnine on Jul 23, 2004 8:17:29 GMT -5
Perhaps the ones who aren't extraordinary just don't graduate... and by graduate I mean, keep breathing.
After all, given the attitude commissars have towards failure, surely their traning process must be equally brutal. You can hardly teach them that the failure of a fellow commissar-trainees results in a mild rebuke but a lowly IG noncom's failure under extraordinary obstacles merits a boltpistol round to the head, unless you teach them that they are "special" and not subject ot the same rules. This IMHO flies in the face of the core of imperial doctrine - no man is special, no man is more important than the mission.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 23, 2004 8:36:10 GMT -5
In that case replace " schola progenium" with something else. Simple. I can then ignore the schola progenium as ultimately uninteresting...  (JK) |
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 26, 2004 21:29:16 GMT -5
I would like to be picky and point out that the Imperium tends to call all its people 'Citizen' so a different term might be more appropriate. How about 'Yeoman' or something along those lines.
OK, Yeoman sucks but you get the idea.
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 26, 2004 22:09:23 GMT -5
I'm not sure whether the Schola Progenium cares only for the orphans of Adepts. Personally I see it more as a religiously run boarding school for people who want their children to become adepts of the Imperium.
Different schools would have different specialties but overall it could be considered as a high school that teaches children and teenagers upon to roughly 18 and after that they'd be shipped to more specialised universities and colleges, such as a naval academy, staff college, administratum university...
One point made in one of the Ciphias Cain stories is that the Commissar and probably Stormtroopers too were trained alongside the SoBs (he mentioned some games against the future sisters at some point).
I see the Schola as the best education the Imperium has to offer, run by priests much akin to the Jesuits in real life (and god knows they are excellent at what they do)
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Post by Sojourner on Jul 26, 2004 22:14:22 GMT -5
That's pretty much the approach I take, Brus. I think the Schola would be quite selective of applicants not from Adept families - with rigorous testing of their mental and ethical characteristics to ensure they're of the 'right' mindset for Imperial service, of course...
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 27, 2004 0:08:47 GMT -5
If we are to expand the schola progenium to include non-orphans - which I'm obviously more than fine with - then all it requires is that orphans be automatically included in the register! As pointed out above, it does say that it is for the orphans of Imperium adepts... it just doesn't say that it is only for them.
Furthermore, if the purpose of the schola progenium is expanded, surely then it behooves us to consider how it might be divided? E.g. are there 'sub-schools' for various parts of it? Go to this one if you're being fast-tracked into the adeptus administratum, or that one if you're being pushed towards the departmento munitorium.
It is also important that we integrate the concept of culture, a feature which I still see as being predicated around the 'nobility'. Just who sends whom to the schola progenium and, potentially, which bits? Or is it just a generic placement and you go where they want you to? (Which potentially removes the dynastic sensibilities of some 'noble lines'.)
We must, where possible, continue a trend of integration rather than viewing different parts of the 'fluff' separately... ;D
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(JK)
