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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 15, 2004 1:19:48 GMT -5
The major problem that we're running into is the lack of cohesive structure to the 'society' within which the Guard, or whatever, are imbedded. There is an "Imperium culture", regardless of the standardised approach that every world is different and, therefore, trying to predict the level of social interaction is problematic at best. While it is quite clear that there is definite differentiation between 'Imperium' and 'local' we should, as far as possible, begin to think about how all these features interact.
For example, the schola progenium has always been mentioned as "Imperium". Thus, staff officers in the above scheme would derive primarily from the an "Imperium" pool. However, it is also clear that 'locals' can rise through the ranks to officers through both in-house Imperium training, but also through specialised facilities on an individual world(s)...
Okay, I've forgotten the point that I was going to make other than the requirement for integration rather than the disparate approach..
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 15, 2004 23:54:32 GMT -5
I see what you mean. Military structure is a reflexion of the society it is supposed to defend. In a sense that's what I'm doing: a strictly hierarchised, highly elitist, very bureaucratic structure that is akin to that of other Imperium wide structure, especially the Munitorum.
I see what you're getting at with Imperial culture but this is something best left to another thread. Maybe one could look at the Romans as an example and see how they integrate local structures into the already existing imperial system (faith is a good example, but not the only one).
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 16, 2004 0:50:33 GMT -5
The Roman model would arguably apply to the greater majority of the Imperium/local argument, at least for inspiration. The 'elitist' situation that you mention almost parallels the concept of 'citizens'... It also creates a whole wonderful world of restriction of vertical mobility (both social, military, etc.) dependent upon social rank... Kinda. And religion/faith is one of the more hand-waving situations for the Romans...
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Post by Minister on Jul 16, 2004 11:29:38 GMT -5
Bruslov, I would agree with your structure, save for replacing Lord Militant with Lord General, both because I remember it from Maleus and because it better paralells with the Navy's Lord Admiral.
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 16, 2004 12:02:47 GMT -5
And what we need here is less spam by me and more tables of ranks and associated social status, etc. I did something similar with the 'defunt' GURPS Rogue Trader but I'm sure that the concept could be revisted for the purposes of the ASP...
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Post by Minister on Jul 16, 2004 12:46:00 GMT -5
I could hammer out something simmilar to the IN rank chart if you like. Between mine and Bruslov's we might find something resembling the "truth".
BTW, do you have Warrant Officers taking the title of X Sergeants, or do you have these positions being filled by a higher rank of sergeant (Eg. Warrant Officer Class Two as a Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant, as in the UK army at present)?
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 16, 2004 13:17:31 GMT -5
<looks blank> Erm, maybe?
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Raider
Scribe
The Anti-Christ
Posts: 53
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Post by Raider on Jul 16, 2004 18:32:21 GMT -5
From the "status and ranks" thread, this is my personal opinion on the ranks. Although I know this isn't the same as Minister's opinion on Naval Officer ranks
Guard Ranks 7b-Lord Commander of the Imperial Guard 7a-Lord General Militant/Warmaster (Segmentum Commander) 6a-Lord General (Sector Commander) 5f-Field Marshal (Higher Formation Commander) 5e-Marshal (Higher Formation Commander) 5d-General (Army Commander) 5c-Lieutenant General (Corp Commander) 5b-Major General (Division Commander) 5a-Brigadier (Brigade Commander) 4b-Colonel (Regiment Commander) 4a-Lieutenant Colonel (Battalion Commander) 3d-Major (Senior Company Commander) 3c-Captain (Company Commander) 3b-Lieutenant (Senior Platoon Commander) 3a-2nd Lieutenant (Platoon Commander) 2d-Regimental Sergeant Major (Regiment Sergeant) 2c-Sergeant Major (Battalion/Company Sergeant) 2b-Senior Sergeant (Platoon Sergeant) 2a-Sergeant (Squad leader) 1c-Corporal (Squad 2ic) 1b-Lance Corporal (Fireteam leader) 1a-Private (Grunt)
Navy Ranks 7b-No equivilant rank 7a-Lord High Admiral (Segmentum Commander) 6a-Lord Admiral (Sector Commander) 5f-High Admiral (Sector Fleet) 5e-Fleet Admiral (Task Force Command) 5d-Admiral (Task Force Command) 5c-Vice Admiral (Sub-Sector Fleet) 5b-Rear Admiral (Sub-Sector Fleet) 5a-Commodore (Battlegroup, Heavy Ship) 4b-Captain (Cruiser) 4a-Commander (Cruiser) 3d-Lieutenant Commander (Destroyer) 3c-Lieutenant (Frigate) 3b-Sub-Lieutenant 3a-Midshipman 2d-Master Chief Petty Officer 2c-Chief Petty Officer 2b-1st Petty Officer 2a-Petty Officer 1c-Senior Crewman 1b-Leading Crewman 1a-Crewman
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Post by Minister on Jul 17, 2004 0:02:28 GMT -5
Something in the order of:
Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard Lord Commander of the Segmentum Warmaster* Lord General Lord Martial* Lord Castellan* General Marshal* Lieutenant General Major General Brigadier*
Colonel Lieutenant Colonel Major Captain Lieutenant Second Lieutenant
Regimental Sergeant Major Sergeant Major Colour Sergeant Staff Sergeant Sergeant Corporal/Bombardier* Lance Corporal Trooper Recruit
*These ranks are not in use with all formations, and many are titles as much as they are ranks. Descriptions follow: Warmaster: A combined arms rank, the Warmaster has complete military authority within the area to which he is assigned. However, the rank lasts only as long as he is within that theatre, after which it is removed. Outwith the assigned area, the rank does not entitle him to any privileges above his former position, but is used as a courtesy. Lord Martial: The commanding officer of a large, often interplanetary, action by the Imperial Guard. Lord Castellan: The military governor of an Imperial Guard administrated world, with absolute authority to act in its defence. Often kept in abeyance except in times of full-scale war. Marshal: The commanding officer of a large, standing garrison of division level. Bombardier: I’m not sure what they do, but they do exist.
"The most dangerous thing in the Imperial Guard is not the rage of a Warmaster, it is the hatred of a Mordian RSM."
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 18, 2004 20:59:03 GMT -5
here are my ranking system:
- trooper - corporal - senior corporal - sergeant - senior sargeant - sergeant major - staff sargeant - lieutenant - fist lieutenant - captain - major - lieutenant colonel - colonel - major general - lieutenant general - marshal - general - lord general - warmaster - Lord Militant (sector) - Lord Commander Segmentum - Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard
This is the closest (almost by the book) structure given by GW in the Imperial Infantry Uplifting Primer (with some addition on my part). And hence is as canon as can be
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Post by Kage2020 on Jul 19, 2004 1:03:46 GMT -5
Seems fine... Perhaps this is where the RPG side of things can become useful? Set a broad concept of Status (yes, thinking in GURPS terms now) and link it to certain ranks as a framework for interpretation but not in anyway restrictive...
(E.g. it might suggest that vertical movement in the hierarchy is difficult beyond a certain social class, but that in no way means that it is impossible...)
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Post by Minister on Jul 19, 2004 9:16:25 GMT -5
IG codex, page 9 "At the highest levels, these men will be known as Lord General Militant or Lord Commander Militant. However, there are many other titles in regular use. This is rarley a problem as such high appointments are singular in nature with only one Lord General active in a sector at any time."
Which doesn't clear things up at all, so I'm sticking to my guns for a Lord General as Sector Command, for simplicity and paralells with the Lord Admiral who commands the Navy at this level.
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Post by Brusilov on Jul 19, 2004 23:22:47 GMT -5
I disqgree strongly. For me the title of Lord General is granted to the highest officer in charge of any military operations (usually offensive). He can be of any rank, although as IMO the brigade is the smallest units capable of independent action, it has to be a Major General. This is clearly shown in the little we know about IG structure above the regiment. On the contrary the Lord Militant has mainly an administrative role and does not command troops
One also to decide whether the Lord Commander Segmentum (or for that matter the Lord Militant)commands only IG or Navy or both
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Post by Minister on Jul 20, 2004 9:53:28 GMT -5
Whereabouts is this clearly shown?
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Post by orangesm on Jul 20, 2004 18:59:29 GMT -5
We have the structure for an Imperial Guard Armored Regiment in Imperial Armor Vol 1. Couldnt we figure out the structure of other major regiment types from that. I agree that it takes a Brigade to actually function as an effective campaigning unit. A large number of foundings are probably on the Brigade scale. (The Tanith 1st were original part of a founding of 3 Regiments, these however probably would not have operated together).
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