|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 2, 2004 12:11:23 GMT -5
Every Lord General would have started their careers as a Lieutenant (in either the PDF or the IG) and worked their way up from there. And at this point the idea of 'buying commissions' springs to mind...
|
|
|
Post by zholud on Jul 2, 2004 23:33:02 GMT -5
Different nations in different periods structured the army ranking differently. For example Germany and even Prussia before that had a rule that no person, however brave can became an officer without education achieved in military school. No never sergeant became lieutenant. In Russia the system was different – only ‘blue blood’ (nobility) could become officers, except the special cased, decided by Tsar himself. More interesting that the nobility had the right to be enlisted as an officer since the birth date thus allowing 4 year olds to become captains due to period of military service. So, there were 25 y.o. retired mayors and even colonels. Russia was probably the sole country that was able in 1920, I.e. after 6 years of war and after 3 years since revolution to form officer-only battalions. If Brusilov saw Chapayev – those black-shirts that attempted psychic attack on machine guns were all officers.
|
|
Raider
Scribe
The Anti-Christ
Posts: 53
|
Post by Raider on Jul 3, 2004 11:53:04 GMT -5
With the commission buying in Britian, you had to spend time in the previous rank. So even the richest of the rich would have to start out as an Ensign. Also you couldn't buy a rank above Colonel.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 4, 2004 2:31:34 GMT -5
Yes, but the idea is that broad implications of 'social rank' can have an influence on the ability of an individual to rise through the ranks... Sharpe of Cornwell being a popularised - and fairly well written example for someone not a specialist in war of the period (or at all when it comes down to it)...
|
|
|
Post by Brusilov on Jul 5, 2004 8:33:09 GMT -5
That's why I differentiate between staff officers and unit officers. Staff officers are members of the Departmento Munitorum from the moment they join and serve in the General Staff of some general as aides in one way or another. They are trained at the Munitorum staff colleges. Unit officers are trained by the local military school, buy their commission as officer, whatever the local custom.
Each climb their way through the ranks of the Munitorum for the first one, the IG for the other. Upon being colonel, a unit officer can receive staff training in one of the Munitorum's institution and promoted to the rank of General. The two officers have very different careers, the first one spends it in HQs, assisting in the planning of military campaigns, while the second spends his years in the mud and dirt of the battlefield.
And personally I consider that most often NCOs would not be granted the possibility of becoming officers, although Staff Sergeants, personal aides to the most senior officers of the Munitorum would wield a lot of influence thanks to their position.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 5, 2004 11:40:28 GMT -5
And how does this actually relate to the broader scheme of things, now that I full understand about 'general staff'... One presumes that the staff officers of the guard are the 'first son' situations of the nobilitas imperialis, while 'second' (and lower) sons come up 'through the ranks' as it were? I'm very keen that there be a social impact to Guard and, indeed, Fleet rank. It seems very much in keeping with 40k...
|
|
|
Post by Brusilov on Jul 8, 2004 6:45:40 GMT -5
Well, if you keep with traditional nobility patterns, the eldest son would inherit the domain, the second son would become a military officer (whether he is staff officer or unit officer depends on the wealth and position of the family), while the third son becomes a priest of the Ecclesiarchy. That's the classical system. Daughters would be married to friends, allies or enemies to settle disputes, reinforces friendships and alliances and other political reasons.
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Jul 9, 2004 2:46:08 GMT -5
From the Imperial Guard Codex (3.5, 4... whatever.) I would say that any officer may be transfered to the General Staff at an apropriate time, partiacularly if he/she is a member of a regiment which is being disbanded (through casualties or through serving its time). Of course, most remain with their regiments for their entire careers, even if they do have the potential, but some catch the notice of the High Command through some deed or another.
Af for promotion from the ranks? It is definatley prevelant amongst the likes of the Catachans (Ref: Codex) and the Vallhalans to a lesser extent (Ref: For the Emperor!), but I can't see the Mordians allowing it even if the Regimental Sergeant Major in question has the Honorifica Imperialis and has been haioled as a Living Saint. So, again, it goes back to planet of origin.
|
|
|
Post by Brusilov on Jul 11, 2004 0:18:41 GMT -5
That's why I differentiate between Guard ranks and Munitorum/staff ranks. Regiments choose their officers in the way they enjoy with the Departmento having nothing to do with it as long as they're loyal to the Imperium. Staff officers however are selected by the Munitorum (although some use influence/wealth from family/relatives to get there).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 11, 2004 3:04:06 GMT -5
Hmmn... revising of interpretation due, methinks. So, basically and for the "eed-yuts" amongst us (read: me ), General Staff basically derives from schola progenium? Guard officers are, for the most part, still 'rank and file' derivative of the regimental structure?
|
|
|
Post by Brusilov on Jul 13, 2004 0:42:53 GMT -5
General staff personnel would derive from an Imperium wide schooling system (probably at the sectorial level0 that would train those deemed fit (aka nobles and worthy officers) into staff officers.
Planets would be free to choose their officers in any way they please, be it school, nobility, voting, brawl, the Munitorum does not care.
Guard officers are entirely derivated from local units.
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 13, 2004 0:52:40 GMT -5
General staff personnel would derive from an Imperium wide schooling system (probably at the sectorial level0 that would train those deemed fit (aka nobles and worthy officers) into staff officers. Remembering, of course, that the common means into this level is through the schola progenium... Kind of.
|
|
|
Post by Minister on Jul 13, 2004 9:31:24 GMT -5
Nyeeemmm... A common method. Another would be the nobles and officers presenting their bright young sons (or their young sons who they think are bright) for selection at the apropriate academy after they have completed their schooling (16-20 range).
|
|
|
Post by Kage2020 on Jul 14, 2004 11:36:14 GMT -5
And once again we run into the problems of education and the interpretation thereof...
|
|
|
Post by Brusilov on Jul 14, 2004 20:25:46 GMT -5
I would agree with Minister. Staff training would be a college level (in US educational term, undergraduate university if you prefer) for the most part. Meaning as Minister pointed out that those kinds would leave the Schola Progenium after getting their diploma IMO at age 18.
Incidently, as I was brainstorming for the regional structure of the Imperial Guard (Tactica Imperium article 5), I came up with interesting things. Here is a quick layout: - sub-sector: no permanent representative, pool of officers available for operations - sector: Lord Militant as sectorial commander, praefects' council to advise him and pool ressources, reserve of staff officers - segmentum: Lord Commander Segmentum (I'm still wondering if the same man commands both IG and Navy or if there are two people with the same title, which IMO would be odd), praefects' council, pool of staff officers
|
|