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Post by Sojourner on Feb 21, 2004 6:22:02 GMT -5
I think zholud's point about Tech Level ratings are that they don't take into account the nature of the innovative thinking going on.
In other words, a TL1 basic infantry weapon is a stone axe, while a TL15 basic infantry weapon is still a stone axe, but so finely engineered that it'll immediately disintigrate anything it strikes by sheer precision quantum mechanics...
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Post by zholud on Feb 21, 2004 9:03:13 GMT -5
Erm, no, not in the slightest. Perhaps it is a poor example, more than anythign else? OK, let’s go the other way Take real world example of meeting of civilisations on different TL, e.g. European expansion to America. The natives, haven’t started to invest in technology and mimicry European tools and methods of warfare (to a great extent), but rather bought/stole/salvaged/acquired tools but not the technology. They haven’t started to search for own ways, or even if they did they were unsuccessful. From this I deduct two things: - Creation of technology is much different from usage of technology. Moreover, if marginal cost of creation is increasing, the cost of usage can fall after certain threshold, e.g. it is easier to use assault rifle than musket. The same could be said about computers and multitude of other things.
- It is very hard or impossible to created science on the basis of already existing tools, e.g. to create already developed nuclear power plant you should not be a physic as well if you give already constructed nuclear plant to e.g. medieval scientists they would be unable to get the principle of its work. Not because people were more stupid but because it shows that something is possible, but not how does it work.
The 40k-verse is exaggeration of our real world, so those two points should be there as well. For me, AM have knowledge above modern science but below the most complex devices, primary fields and warp-technology, which they able to produce but not describe, similar to car producers who don’t know about steel, electronics and other things, they just know that they need materials and tools with given properties and they receive it. The secular and Ecclesiarchal scientists are on the level of modern science, but such studies don’t pay off, and thus aren’t supported by both local and imperial nobility. Why would you spent billions of dollars for modern particle accelerators like modern European one (which is so costly that wealthy countries have to share the costs), if you know that Marines already have nuclear fusion in their backpacks? Costs of modern natural sciences are enormous, but they output is way below the existent in 40k things. Modern tanks use metre-think armour while 40k creates more resistant adamatine, 40 mm of which is enough, or powerpacks for lasers which are more potent than biggest real world submarine accumulators. The list can be continued, but the point remain – it is much cheaper to obtain Mechanicus tools than develop something for which you have to wait for decades and even centuries. So, despite non-Mechanicus natural science research exists, it is very limited and on the level greatly below maximum allowed for Mechanicus.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 21, 2004 20:20:12 GMT -5
I see why I've been confused... You haven't really been disagreeing with the TL system, especially when one remembers that it is just a guideline, something to prompt ideas than a simple mimicry of the appalling approach advocated by GW... Of course the adeptus mechanicus is significantly above that of non- adeptus mechanicus personnel. That's one of those things that 'goes without saying'... Kage
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Post by zholud on Feb 22, 2004 10:03:44 GMT -5
I see why I've been confused... You haven't really been disagreeing with the TL system, especially when one remembers that it is just a guideline, something to prompt ideas than a simple mimicry of the appalling approach advocated by GW... As I said earlier, I don’t like linear development of TL system, but due to the fact I cannot propose viable alternatives ATM I guess we have to stick to it, despite it should be further disaggregated in order to allow all those ’early TL11’ or ’late TL10’ gadgets more clearly. My point was much more clearly re-stated by Sojourner about distinction between engineers or users of technology, who can produce but could be unaware about its principles of work and scientists, who often are able to give theory for tool but not create the tool itself (I hate when someone is able to show my thought better than I can do it myself ). I specifically discussed the topic with one physicist and he ensured me that almost all projects which are able to move the frontiers of modern physics are extremely costly. Thus I assume that local nobility usually cannot afford to have such laboratories especially if they are able to achieve by other means the tools greatly superior to anything that could be produced by these labs in appropriate period of time. As a result sole sponsors of adequate level of research are Ecclesiarchy and Administratum because they give positive probability to conflict with Mechanicus and thus don’t lay all eggs in one basket. But even with this financing their scientists-researchers are inferior to Mechanicus. Of course the adeptus mechanicus is significantly above that of non- adeptus mechanicus personnel. That's one of those things that 'goes without saying'... At least in some subjects.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 22, 2004 16:56:51 GMT -5
This is the fourth time that I've tried to reply to this mail and it's been lost. After nine hours of trying to fix a virus on the machine, I have less than patience... Linearity of the TL system... It would appear only in your interpretation, or at least the sense of what I'm getting from it. You're talking about the presence of TL11 or higher artefacts, yet this is not precluded from the system either through natural development or 'archaeology'. The opposite is also possible... that artefacts of lower TL are going to be present. After all and again: it is a guideline only, but one that is meant to be constructive than anything else. Users, Engineers and Scientists... Your arguments seem to be that Users are everywhere, engineers are the adeptus mechanicus and the only scientists, if they are present at all, are the adeptus mechanicus. The independent evolution of a planet and their own responses to their technological infrastructure seem entirely absent. Kage
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Post by zholud on Feb 28, 2004 9:11:54 GMT -5
On the education in Imperium. After quite a long conversation with our famous guru, great Kage, I decided that some clarification of my position is quite important. I encourage everyone to involve into this discussion. The primary education in the Imperium. I think that Ecclesiarchy is the leading institution that provides primary education in the Imperium, but of course, not the only one. The reasons I see it this way: - During the middle ages and to some extent after them churches were prime supplier of educated people and I think that to a large extent Imperium has to be depicted after European Medieval period.
- The Imperium is totalitarian pseudo-state and all modern totalitarian regimes (and it is questionable whether non-modern totalitarism existed at all) invested heavily in primary education. It is populist movement, it creates better and more loyal citizens, and this strengthen patriotic feelings. The most interested in the latter two are Administratum and Ecclesiarchy, so quite natural that they have to be primary promoters and sponsors of it. at the moment fluff never ever mentioned Administratum supplying any kind of education, so it is safe to assume that this in Ecclesiarchy region of influence. Especially if we agree that both local nobility and Administratum are better off with the supply of education than without it.
- There are other institutions and individuals who supply education services. First of all there are planets where Ecclesiarchy cannot get presence, such as Forge worlds and several if not most of SM Chapters homeworlds. Also there are worlds to which Ecclesiarchy just do not wish to send their tutors either because of limited numbers on high probability of adverse effects (including possible death of teacher).
- Each world in the Imperium is relatively closed, so local customs of teaching services supply by both secular and religious organisations may be changed to a great extent comparing with education schedule originally intended.
- The ruling elite of each world most likely gets personal tutors for their off-spring.
To sum up: The large part of primary education on the worlds with TL 6 and above, excluding Forge world and some other specific regions is en-masse provided by Ecclesiarchy, which keeps some 80+ percent of such education services. Any comments? I’ll add subjects and their description if necessary.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 28, 2004 9:41:42 GMT -5
The primary education in the Imperium. I think that Ecclesiarchy is the leading institution that provides primary education in the Imperium, but of course, not the only one. I agree with this premise and, indeed, have always done so (see above). I do not agree for the same reasons, outlined partially below. However, with the generic statement of the adeptus ministorum's involvement in primary education, once again you come to the point of differentiation between that and the schola progenium. During the middle ages and to some extent after them churches were prime supplier of educated people and I think that to a large extent Imperium has to be depicted after European Medieval period. We discussed this by chat last night. Using the English model, I do not think that the later medieval period (basically ~1,000 ACE to 1532 ACE inasmuch as any historical or archaeological period can be defined anything but arbitrarily) is a good analog. Rather, the post-medieval period (1532 ACE+) offers a much better source of inspiration. It is economically, politically and socially a far more interesting period with numerous undercurrents which can direct much of the 'fluff', rather than the tediously church-centric approach of the later medieval period, especially in Europe. Okay, sweeping generalisation there, but the whole 'industrialisation' in application to the Imperium does create far more interesting potentials. A cuspal society rather than the wholly feudal approach. Especially if we agree that both local nobility and Administratum are better off with the supply of education than without it. This is dependent upon the views of the Imperial Commander... if they don't want an educated populace, then you're not to have one. There are other institutions and individuals who supply education services. First of all there are planets where Ecclesiarchy cannot get presence, such as Forge worlds and several if not most of SM Chapters homeworlds. Also there are worlds to which Ecclesiarchy just do not wish to send their tutors either because of limited numbers on high probability of adverse effects (including possible death of teacher). Here we run into a conceptual difference. I see it less as education and more as indoctrination... Each world in the Imperium is relatively closed, so local customs of teaching services supply by both secular and religious organisations may be changed to a great extent comparing with education schedule originally intended. Really depends on what you mean by 'closed' there. The ruling elite of each world most likely gets personal tutors for their off-spring. That depends on the educational structure of the world in question, i.e. universities could exist both in terms of the 'medieval' approach but also the developed approach (i.e. similar to current universities). It all depends. Any comments? I’ll add subjects and their description if necessary. If by 'subjects' your once again talking about academic subjects, then no. There is no point. Having the adeptus ministorum responsible for 'primary education' is entirely feasible, and again it is not something that I've argued against. Well, not really. Yet I am fairly certain that it is more a case of indoctrination into the Imperial cult or the acculturated form that may exist on the world. I am strongly against the suggestion that the church provides the educated people of the Imperium, but rather that there is 'tension' between the concept of the 'Imperium' and 'local' in term sof education. The world can respond to things indepednently, although there is of course nods of the head to the adeptus ministorum... In other words, you could go to university on an Imperial world and the curriculum would not be written or taught by the adetpus ministorum. As to the level to which this progresses? Sub- adeptus mechanicus, self-evidently. Zholud has already reasonably made the point of relative expense of scientific research and the relative cheapness of imported products by default, but that does not mean that a world will be economically slaved to the Imperium... Kage
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Post by zholud on Feb 28, 2004 10:44:09 GMT -5
the adeptus ministorum's involvement in primary education, once again you come to the point of differentiation between that and the schola progenium. For me Schola Progenium is more than orphanage as I already said and it is part of the education system which has supra-planet guidelines… We discussed this by chat last night. Using the English model, I do not think that the later medieval period (basically ~1,000 ACE to 1532 ACE inasmuch as any historical or archaeological period can be defined anything but arbitrarily) is a good analog. Rather, the post-medieval period (1532 ACE+) offers a much better source of inspiration. Hard to say, but my point was that GW sayeth that it uses middle ages and not reformation/renaissance so unless we go greatly heretical we have to stick to such limitation. Of course, other period and cultures are welcome and the limitation line is vague. I have to look up, but ATM I’m sure that education in England in 1500 was significantly different from 1600. Okay, sweeping generalisation there, but the whole 'industrialisation' in application to the Imperium does create far more interesting potentials. A cuspal society rather than the wholly feudal approach. The problem is that industrialisation calls for massive changes in Imperium which seems to be stable for previous 10,000 and thus those two hardly coincide. This is dependent upon the views of the Imperial Commander... if they don't want an educated populace, then you're not to have one. In this case there is no education on this planet and thus it is outside our education system at all. We have self-selection bias here. Here we run into a conceptual difference. I see it less as education and more as indoctrination... The link between the spiritual and mundane is much closer in 40k where Adept who doesn’t know Ave Imperator by heart is heretic. And it doesn’t prevent from lips service, so as indoctrination it doesn’t work in full. But it does work as education… Really depends on what you mean by 'closed' there. That most nominally imperial citizens never ever meet off-worlder and thus consider them rather unimportant for own well-being.
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Post by CELS on Feb 28, 2004 14:33:00 GMT -5
Well, I've tried to catch up in this discussion, but I admit it was all a bit much by the time I got to the third page. Here's my take on this issue though... The main problem seems to be that Zholud is sticking very sharply with the image GW has painted, with science and technology being so mysterious in 40k, whilst Kage is sticking to what makes sense to him in order for the Imperium to function (I'm sure you'll both disagree ). IIRC, Rick Priestly was especially in love with the idea of mysterious technology, that the people would know how to use the technology, but that they wouldn't know how it worked, and thus would go around talking about the spirits in their armour, phantoms and the machine god. ...And this is entirely cool. It's just that A) It seems very little of the newer material builds on this idea and B) It would mean that the AM have their job cut out for them in upholding the Imperium. Firing a lasgun is easy, yes, but you still need people who can repair, maintain and build high tech equipment, and I would argue that this is almost impossible if you don't understand what you're doing. Or at least, so ineffective that it's (even more) unlikely that the Imperium would work. So... my take is that each world has its own education system and educates its own doctors, engineers, accountants and veterinaries. So what is the role of the Schola Progenium? Well, it educates orphans. The most apt of its young students are chosen for great things, and the others become humble scribes, guardsmen or some other lowly thing. What is the role of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, they know more than anyone else. Simple as that. They also have knowledge about some areas that are totally unavailable to non-Imperial educational institutions, such as the knowledge of xenos, warp tech, machine spirits, etc So, yes, I disagree that knowledge about subjects such as medicine must be acquired in the Schola Progenium, as evident in the Abnett novels. And history is not completely off-limits to all citizens, zholud. The horus heresy probably is, but there's no reason why a world shouldn't know its own history. The historicians of Meksum might not know about the wars of Armageddon (or they might have some clue), but they would know the history of their own world and to some extent, their sector. Geology? Not all planets get auspexes especially delivered from the AM, zholud, and there's more to geology than figuring out what kinds of rocks there are on the ground Physics... If you want people to be able to construct tall buildings (no, not all buildings are STC), they should know a thing or two about physics. The same goes for aquaducts, sewage systems, vehicles (you might have need for a vehicle that the AM can't give you a design for, such as Sojourner's ice harvesters) or bridges. As for percentages of education, my impression is that it's 5% AM, 15% Ecclesiarchial (or other Imperial organisations), and the rest under the control of the individual worlds.
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Post by zholud on Feb 28, 2004 18:20:53 GMT -5
Well, I've tried to catch up in this discussion, but I admit it was all a bit much by the time I got to the third page. Here's my take on this issue though... OK, it is fine. Especially comparing with me who don’t answer to your Proteus thread (at least now) because I’ve not caught up. But I’ll do one day, I promise. The main problem seems to be that Zholud is sticking very sharply with the image GW has painted, with science and technology being so mysterious in 40k, As you’ve said I’d disagree, despite it is completely true that I try whenever possible do not violate GW imaginary. Partially this is because I still hope to influence GW and even give them ideas, so I have to speak their language. But I have some pet heresies and I think that some fluff doesn’t ‘fit’, but I agree on my general adherence to canon. Firing a lasgun is easy, yes, but you still need people who can repair, maintain and build high tech equipment, and I would argue that this is almost impossible if you don't understand what you're doing. This is close to my point, despite true comparison is the following: the monkey is able to fire lasgun, the human with IQ over 60 and obedience can keep it working for extended periods of time, non-Mechanicus mechanics may repair almost anything with quite small (i.e. multiple quite simple things) details, or even manufacture them on ready lines, but you need much more education in order to recreate how and why laser works the way it works. The latter is to the large extent is domain of Mechanicus. So what is the role of the Schola Progenium? Well, it educates orphans. This is were canon is unsatisfying tome, because too much specialists, in spheres where brains are often more vital than reaction came from this institution, so for me Schola Progenium now is specialised school for bright kids. [quote author=CELS link=board=Imperium&thread=1075888929&start=38#2 date=1077996780What is the role of the Adeptus Mechanicus? Well, they know more than anyone else. [/quote] Again only in some areas. So, yes, I disagree that knowledge about subjects such as medicine must be acquired in the Schola Progenium, as evident in the Abnett novels. And I agree. SP isn’t medical school after all And history is not completely off-limits to all citizens, zholud. But with approach “Chaos is everywhere” advocated by GW here should be too much dangerous knowledge, that historians, who exist, are severely monitored. And if you are ‘natural born’ historian and need actual info on subjects you have to cooperate with imperial bodies such as Inquisition to gain access to data. The history is one of the obligatory subjects in my primary education provided by Ecclesiarchy approach. Geology? Not all planets get auspexes especially delivered from the AM, zholud, and there's more to geology than figuring out what kinds of rocks there are on the ground But many other areas don’t pay much, e.g. paleogeology and thus are kept by hobbyists. Main point that they are more engineers, i.e. users of knowledge, and not researchers, i.e. creators of knowledge. Physics... If you want people to be able to construct tall buildings (no, not all buildings are STC), they should know a thing or two about physics. They know it. in my view there are non-Mechanicus scientist who are able to make atomic bomb, not only building. As for percentages of education, my impression is that it's 5% AM, 15% Ecclesiarchial (or other Imperial organisations), and the rest under the control of the individual worlds. The point against local elite as sponsors is that is always led to separatism in the real world, and Ecclesiarchy tries to keep Imperium united, speaking on the same language, singing only right hymns and understanding that Emperor watches you, and not some planetary lord who can be dismissed if need arises.
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Post by Minister on Feb 28, 2004 18:58:11 GMT -5
The Scholasta Projenium is not the SOLE provider for any of the instututions lkisted. Many of the Commissars are promising recruits pulled from the officer schools, many storm troopers IG veterans and the cream of the PDF special forces, most scribes from the Administratum. The idea that your children will enter the Scholasta upon your death is merley one more advantage for the Imperial Adepts.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 28, 2004 20:48:21 GMT -5
Well, back to the Portent method of posting... really cannot be bothered with the separate windows required to get this thing to work here... That the schola progenium is 'supra-planet' is reasonable, i.e. it follows the same format on the various worlds. But it does not produce an integrated system of education. Well, they say it's medieval and that is just as much an extension of 'feudalism' as anything else. And as is obvious from the 'fluff' the 'feudal' situation is integrated into something which is distinctly non-feudal. This is only the case if you take one of the two paths of historiography: one path argues that the 'industrial revolution' was just that, a revolution; the other argues that it is more a case of 'evolution'. I'm an industrial evolutionist. With that said, however, I'm not talking about the developed post-medieval period, but the earlier version. Late 16th/early 17th... not into the full swing of things of the early middle 17th century. I would say that you're mistaking external manifestation with reality of the situation, but there we go. <grin> No, you're broadly correct although I would say that zholud is sticking with the letter of the 'fluff' as stated numerous through the rulebooks while I'm trying to do justice to the 'spirit' of the 'fluff' as brought across in the novels. I personally find that the 'middle age' (early to later medieval) image is appropriate to the Imperial organisations as a force for homeostasis in the Imperium, but the oft-stated 'independent vector' of a world ascribed in the 'fluff' makes this untenable on application to an individual world. Hence the post-medieval period which is transitional in nature. I'm rather fond of that imagery myself, for the most part. I have no idea of how a laser might work, but know that it probably involves photons! It's nigh on magic, but that doesn't mean that it is... It is in this grey area, just as the technomages of B5, that things become possible on both sides of the argument. This is the core precept behind 'technological diffusion', which I'm a firm advocate of. The adeptus mechanicus controls the most advanced technologies but independent development of worlds means that they cannot truly control all technology. It just doesn 't work... but just as the adeptus ministorum is able to indoctrinate people in the Imperial Cult, thus with the adeptus mechanicus and their animistic beliefs. But as one can see in the 'fluff', they obviously haven't had the same result as their more spiritual counterparts. Nope. There is medical research done by individual worlds in some of the Gaunt's Ghost novels, IIRC. It is things like 'warp technology' and 'psionic technology' that are the big no-nos... Or rather there are 'officila' version sof such events that may not be entirely coehsive with local accounts. Again, this creates the lattitude which people can move into create a dynamic and interesting narrative. Another reason why we need a more cohesive idea of what the STC is... But perhaps zholud's argument would be akin to "You don't need to understand Newton's Laws to be able to build a house. You just do it the way that your father/mother did it, and their father/mother before them..." I agree with the idea, but not the specific example. The adeptus mechanicus controls the advanced technologies, restricting them to the Forgeworlds and, in certain low-threat technologies, allows sytems integration on worlds with a franchise. Again, though, it doesn't mean that a world cannot produce their own version of a weapon. Thus the lasgun produced by the adeptus mechanicus is more energy efficient and damaging than that produced by a local world but that doesn't really cut the mustard: it's not all about efficiency. Sometimes the wonderful concept of a non-slave economy might come up... Perhaps the best solution is to work along the idea that GW commonly uses the same term to represent two different things. Perhaps there is an 'orphan' section of the schola progenium but there is also something else... something which extends beyond kindergarten/primary education into primary/secondary education... And after that even further specialisation. Note state-sanctioned history of events mentioned above and the idea that individual (local) history may lead some to conclude a different interpretation...
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