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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 4, 2004 5:02:09 GMT -5
One thing that I'm very keen on is that each world be allowed to maintain a level of education that is suitable to that world, though with obvious 'exception' being taken when that broaches on 'heretical' knowledge. Said 'heretical knowledge' would include too-high technology (stepping on the toes of the adeptus mechanicus) or anything revolving around the warp, amongst other things. Parallel to this is the schola progenium, which many see as the single educational insitution in the Imperium. I self-evidently disagree with this, but one has to question the exact function. Minimum 'fluff' requires that it be, in essence, an orphans school. The only people that attend it are the children of former adepts... But what about the children of current adepts? How might the 'locals' achieve a position in the SP so that they can raise their position into the functioning of the adeptus terra? Some thoughts to chew on... Kage
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Post by malika on Feb 4, 2004 5:11:35 GMT -5
I think it will be different on each planet, education will probably be a very local thing...learning to read and write..probably the planet's history, about how the emperor saved it..maybe some imperial history..in the way like "the emperor is god bla bla" but nothing more than that...the people arent allowed to beome too smart
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Post by Zidagar Dinoman on Feb 4, 2004 8:14:19 GMT -5
I think it will be different on each planet, education will probably be a very local thing...learning to read and write..probably the planet's history, about how the emperor saved it..maybe some imperial history..in the way like "the emperor is god bla bla" but nothing more than that...the people arent allowed to beome too smart I concur. Education is to mundane a detail for the huge Imperium to deal with. Instruction should b left up to the individual worlds. However, the Schola Progenium should have some presense in the Anargo Sector. I believe that the Schola takes only orphaned children of Imperial officers, but I'm sure this can be expanded upon. The Academy sounds like a great place for the Schola to teach officers, commissars, and stormtroopers. -Dinoman
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Post by malika on Feb 4, 2004 8:46:19 GMT -5
Not just orphans of officers..I think all orphans, they wont have a family to care for, so they become more "heartless" something the imperium needs...maybe a very very very few (one in a million or something) from normal local school would be accepted in the schola progenium, because they are the best of the best, and the most pro imperial...free will has to be terminated.
The higher grade a student comes in the more and better education he/she gets...well at least in the schola progenium...
BTW is there any info about the schola progenium? more than just "they take in orphans who later on become storm troopers"
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Post by LordWarlock on Feb 4, 2004 16:02:52 GMT -5
BTW is there any info about the schola progenium? more than just "they take in orphans who later on become storm troopers" Well, it is run by the Ecclessiarchy for one, and its "employees" include Drill Abbots and priests. Apparently teasing and bullying is encouraged, as this weeds out the weak and illuminate the strong. Obviously Progeni are far more educated than regular temple school graduates (ie, civilians), as they're also educated in military and naval tactics - the Schola Progenium sounds like an officer's school to me.
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Post by Minister on Feb 4, 2004 16:17:43 GMT -5
The Scholasta Projenium takes all orphans of "Imperial Servants". In my eyes this is only those with the title of Adeptus.
It is also my opinion that it's the equivelant of primary and secondary education. Projenia are sent out at an apropriate age (16-18, probably) to complete their training elsewhere, either in the military, ecclesiarchy or administratum.
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Post by zholud on Feb 4, 2004 16:18:36 GMT -5
Well, Kage, should I search out my mail-client for our lengthy discussion on topic and post it here? Since those days of old I became more lax in regard of allowing the independent institutions, but I still assume that Ecclesiarchy plays very important role, especially in common schools. So, should I dig?
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 4, 2004 19:38:25 GMT -5
Nah... no point, zholud. Again, however, I think that the assumption that that the schola progenium is the 'equivalent' of primary ro secondary education is problematic. In many ways the schola progenium seems an entirely medieval instituation, whereas individual worlds can have their own system... The children of Adepts are destined into service. (And I would say a 'no' to the fact this includes all orphans, regardless of their origin.) I think that it is also self-evident that the adeptus ministorum has a hand in the schola progenium. But I also think that it is a fundamentally flawed idea to assume that it is primarily an 'officer training core'. Solely, anyway. (For the Academy is not going to be schola progenium... but tha tmight be leading the argument somewhat.) Kage
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Post by CELS on Feb 10, 2004 17:43:07 GMT -5
The way I see it, the Schola Progenium trains commissars, Explicators (later promoted to Interrogators), Adepts for the Administratum, etc.
In a way, I see the schola progenium like universities in Norway, really. They are owned and controlled by the government (i.e. Adeptus Terra), and offer educations that are excluse to this institution. You can't become an Adept of the Administratum without going to the Schola Progenium, for example.
That doesn't mean that Imperial worlds don't have people that are capable of doing the work of administratum adepts (all kinds of paperwork, really). It just means that to join the Administratum, you have to be an Adept, which means you have to go to the Schola Progenium.
IG officers might be trained by the Schola progenium, but these can obviously be recruited from PDF's as well. The Adeptus Mechanicus has its own institutions, and so doesn't need the Schola Progenium. I seem to remember that there's a Naval Academy, so Naval officers aren't educated in the Schola Progenium either, I suppose. Same goes for Ecclessiarchy.
Hmm, I really don't see what the problem is. A typical sign that I have misunderstood ;D
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Post by Minister on Feb 11, 2004 4:26:53 GMT -5
I'm going to almost completley dissagree with Cels here.
Firstly, you can become an Administratum Adept withough going through the Scholasta Projenium. The primary method of gaining scribes is the hereditary positions, probably along with recruitments from various Imperial worlds.
Secondly, the Ecclesiarchy recruits a good number of the Projenia. Not just priests, but deacons and most of the Adeptus Sororitas. They are also the ones who actualy run the things, which implies to me that they do not form the complete training for the likes of the Administratum.
Naval officers are also recruited from the Scholasta.
Primary referances: Codexes Imperialis and Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition.
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Post by zholud on Feb 11, 2004 15:14:31 GMT -5
Here is list of my views on education. - Local vs. global education. For me the education is one of the things that keeps Imperium together and thus primary education is made in different world under one template. It cantains basic math, reading, writing, history and religion.
- Who is reigning Ministry of Education? Again I will disagree with majority and state that primary education, which includes but is not limited by, Schola Progenium is ruled by Ecclesiarchy and not Administratum. The reasons for this are twofold: (1) internal – most known graduates are religious zealots (Sisters, Commissars, etc) and (2) external – middle ages Europe had education mainly (sic!) in churches.
- Schola Progenium. For me they are rough equivalent to Grammar Schools in the Great Britain wish are interested in best pupils instead of just orphans.
- I agree that there are secular universities as well and specialist polytechnic schools.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 11, 2004 19:29:57 GMT -5
[/li][li] Local vs. global education. For me the education is one of the things that keeps Imperium together and thus primary education is made in different world under one template. It cantains basic math, reading, writing, history and religion. [/quote] Agreed, to some regard. There is a need for broad Imperial indoctrination. But this is something that I see happening as a young child when the mind is more pliable to this type of thing. Again, not necessarily something done by the schola progenium... Again I will disagree with majority and state that primary education, which includes but is not limited by, Schola Progenium is ruled by Ecclesiarchy and not Administratum. I've thought long and hard about this, and at the moment I can see several advantages why the adeptus ministorum should be involved in 'primary' education and, indeed, the schola progenium. That does not mean to see that they have any controls over 'local' education, however. Schola Progenium. For me they are rough equivalent to Grammar Schools in the Great Britain wish are interested in best pupils instead of just orphans. A reasonable point, and one that I would be fine with. However, it is something that I see as ending in the early mid-teens... Kage
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Post by CELS on Feb 13, 2004 18:54:51 GMT -5
Firstly, you can become an Administratum Adept withough going through the Scholasta Projenium. The primary method of gaining scribes is the hereditary positions, probably along with recruitments from various Imperial worlds. That's a good point. I forgot about that. Secondly, the Ecclesiarchy recruits a good number of the Projenia. Not just priests, but deacons and most of the Adeptus Sororitas. They are also the ones who actualy run the things, which implies to me that they do not form the complete training for the likes of the Administratum. So you see the Schola Progenium as being more of an orphanage then, responsible for educating children up to their teens, before they are sent to special Administratum schools, Navy academies, Commissar schools, or whatever? Naval officers are also recruited from the Scholasta. Didn't know. I thought there was some kind of Imperium-wide Naval academy. Is this wrong? Do you know if these are complimentary or just two different ways of education for navymen? Primary referances: Codexes Imperialis and Sisters of Battle from 2nd edition. Always nice when someone has references. Agreed, to some regard. There is a need for broad Imperial indoctrination. But this is something that I see happening as a young child when the mind is more pliable to this type of thing. Again, not necessarily something done by the schola progenium... Not necessarily, no, but we are trying to find what the Schola Progenium does, and not only what is exclusive for the Schola Progenium. I've thought long and hard about this, and at the moment I can see several advantages why the adeptus ministorum should be involved in 'primary' education and, indeed, the schola progenium. That does not mean to see that they have any controls over 'local' education, however. How do you mean? A reasonable point, and one that I would be fine with. However, it is something that I see as ending in the early mid-teens... Why? And what do you see happening in mid-teens?
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Post by Minister on Feb 14, 2004 9:26:32 GMT -5
Example, from my POV: The youngster (arbitrarily a boy of five) whose father and mother have croaked, at least one of whom is an Adept of the Imperium (say his father, a scribe, killed by cancer and his mother having died when he was an infant, is transfered to the Scholasta Projenium. He does well in his studies, toughens up and is selected as possible officer material, his lessons at the age of 10 being shifted to the military courses. Whilst he shows great faith in the Emperor, he is concidered not to have the spark for the Commissariat, and not physicaly strong enough to serve in the Storm Troopers. However, his ability with the sword is above average and his mathematical ability is rather good, and so he is sent to Kar Duniash to begin training as an officer of the fleet at the age of 16. After this he undergoes the standard Fleet schooling for (say) three years, before being transfered to Battlefleet Koyshen as an ensign on the Insurmountable.
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Post by Kage2020 on Feb 15, 2004 10:03:43 GMT -5
Not necessarily, no, but we are trying to find what the Schola Progenium does, and not only what is exclusive for the Schola Progenium. I would suggest that it is not necessary for the schola progenium to be in any way exclusive in terms of the information that is related. The primary role is in terms of 'pre-education', something which occurs before specialisation. Whether these 'sub-schools' are a part of the schola progenium system is up for grabs, but I would tend to think not. So in this way there is some analogy with English grammar school system; it is the correct first step. But again one must consider that the 'fluff' is somewhat strict as to who may join up... Quite simply that the adeptus ministorum while having its finger in the pie that is the schola progenium does not have the fingers in the pie that is the local, non- schola progenium education, i.e. the one that is defined by the Imperial Commander. The level of integration is therefore dependent upon the unique history of the world... A world like Anargo might allow substantial contribution by the adeptus ministorum into education, but other worlds not. Just depends on how 'integrated' the world is into the Imperium... ...The only problem with that statement is that most worlds would have been kicking around 'in' the Imperium for ten millennia, a substantial period of time despite GW's proclivity for fantasy timelines. So guess that means its all for grabs. But as a working premise, I was merely saying that I'm find with the idea that the adeptus ministorum has first dibs on the schola progenium, but I will not extend that to supposition that it has control of all education in the Imperium. Why? And what do you see happening in mid-teens? A move away from an indoctrination which would have been occurring for years at the point of time when the human mind is more 'adaptable' and into specialised training depending upon selected function. Kage
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